meshunderlay
meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2008
Total posts: 612
Posted:Heeey there HoP, how's it going?

Been a while since I last graced the forums here with my melodic (??) banter, but here I go.

So, I just got my first set of fire props, and of course have been reading and re-reading safety ideas, getting the proper equipment etc etc, and I come across this video....

Now, I'm not even close to an amatuer at using fire in performance, but I was wondering what everyone thought about his choice in fuels? In most fuel related discussions it seems to me other fuels would be better but... *shrug* Just wanted to hear YOUR opinions.

That is all for now..

Ciao
- Adam


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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:um... what video... there's no link...

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: meshunderlay

Been a while since I last graced the forums here with my melodic (??) banter, but here I go.



I was gonna say, haven't seen you round these here parts for some time, my boy.

The BEST fuel is D60 or Shellsol or something like that, I know you can get this and similar things in Australia and in the UK, you might have to source it from somewhere in the US, maaaaaybe some lovely person might be able to tell you an equiv available in the US, but its sold under several names, perhaps you could find an MSDS for one of the high flashpoint solvents available in Aus and the UK and take that to a wholesaler and ask them if they can aquire that or something similar.

Sorry I can't be of any more help. frown


hug

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:the MAIN fuel that is used over here in the US is Coleman White gas, It's a Naptha fuel....as far as if it's D60 or shellsol...i dunno

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'm reasonably certain that they couldnt be any more different. tongue2

I've looked up the MSDS for coleman fuel and it tells me the flash point is <0f which is about -18c

That doesn't make sense to me but I do know that the flash point is very low, the flash point for D60 is 60c

Shellsol and D60 are the same under different names. smile

http://www.yairerez.co.il/pic/6412ed90_0015_467d_9a15_cdc1a4341a03.pdf
br>
This is the stuff and it seems its available in North America! Just might have to buy wholesale. If you can't buy it in small quantities you could stock up on it and take FOREVER to use it or you could sell it to friends and such things. As far as storing flammables goes its by far one of the safer ones to store.


hug

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meshunderlay
meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2008
Total posts: 612
Posted:Originally Posted By: Myncium... what video... there's no link...

Wow, my bad. I wrote this while packing for a weekend vacation and I guess I didn't notice I didn't put the link in... hah.

I'll throw it on when I get home tonight.


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meshunderlay
meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2008
Total posts: 612

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:This has all been discussed SO many times, really. White gas and d60 are about the opposite ends of volatility. Flashpoint differs hugely. In other words, the temperature at which the fuel produces flammable gases.

White gas is volatile/flammable/dangerous as hell at room temperature.

Naphtha is a generic name that covers heaps of specific fuels. The chap in this vid specifically says what he is using is not volatile. Notice how long it took him to to light it. Also he doesn;t need a long burn. OK. It burns reasonably cool. Seems very like Shellsol or d60.

Shellsol and d60 are not the same but they are similar in practical terms for spinning. Shellsol (wholesale trade name, also called Recosol, Isopar G etcetc, marketed as Firesol or Firewater in Australia) has a flash around 40 degrees. d60 around 65 degrees. In other words, neither produce flammable gases at room temperature unless you are in a very hot place.
So much safer. d60 is classified as not dangerous for transportation and international professionals have taken it one planes. Both are relatively odourless but will leave soot on wicks.

Neither are kero; which burns at a similar temp to Isopar G but stinks and stinks for ages after a burn. Nasty, avoid if possible but often the only thing people can get.

OK
If I write this info one more time on HoP I think I'll scream!!!



.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:Just for the record, Kero smells delicious, even better in the morning after a night of partying, as the sun is rising. But it is incredibly sooty.

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:Ok, first of all....not the best video to show that your safe to public officials.

"There is no danger in fire preformance in metropolitan areas"

like wtf is that? there is always risk and danger. Secondly, does this guy know what a dip can is?just because fuel on the ground can be put out easily, doesnt mean it should be there, that stuff he's using is petrolium and naptha based, sounds slippery to me...


O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: Poje Secondly, does this guy know what a dip can is?just because fuel on the ground can be put out easily, doesnt mean it should be there, that stuff he's using is petrolium and naptha based, sounds slippery to me...

And toxic. "Hey! Lets put it on the grass!" Dipping container/spin off jar would be goooood stuff.

Not just that but "I can leave this burning torch in the grass and look what happens!" No mention of how dry/moist the grass is. That may sound like common sense but there are some fairly silly people out there and saying that kind of thing just doesn't sit well.


hug

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:good point MNS, i thought about how nice and green his grass was too

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: newgabe
If I write this info one more time on HoP I think I'll scream!!!


It does seem to be a rather repetitious topic doesn't it.

Part of the problem, IMO is when an American posts looking for fuel information and they get a response from an Australian suggesting fuels that for all intents and purposes are specialty items and are very difficult to track down. I've found the equivalent of d60 here in Canada but only by emailing Shell's head office to find out what it's sold as locally only to be hooked up with a distributor who only sells it in minimum 20 litre buckets. Once we add on shipping we're looking at about a hundred bucks to get some over here ( I live on an island ) which is quite the gamble for a product I don't know whether I'd be happy with.

WE have two choices, white gas or kerosene. Well, there's lamp oil, but it's same same kerosene.

Kerosene is by far the safer fuel to use. It's pretty much idiot proof and by idiots I don't mean the spinners, but the people who hang around fire spinning jams and congregate by the fueling station thinking that it's some sort of central focus point and invariably light up "smoking materials" in close proximity to the fuel. You wouldn't gas up your car with a lit cigarette hanging out of your mouth would you ? But for some reason people deem smoking around flammable liquids at fire jams is all right.

There's also talk about the flammable vapours aspect, which can/may be an issue if the air is totally still and the vapours have a chance to accumulate. In five years of using white gas only, I've never had it happen.

If you plan on trying to preserve the life of your wicks by dunking them, still smouldering, into your fuel, then definitely use kerosene. Doing this with white gas is a recipe for disaster. Have you ever been to Thailand, where they dunk their still burning wicks into the great big bucket of fuel to put them out and refuel them all in one go? That'll work with kero, but you'll get a VERY nasty surprise if you try that with white gas.

It won't explode, but it'll sure light up fast.

I NEVER bring my fuel into the house once it's been transferred to a paint can. Not a big issue with kerosene, but paint cans can, and do, leak and when that happens, you'll be filling your place with those highly flammable vapours. This happened once when I left my spinning kit in my van. The can developed a leak, and when the interior environment heated up, it forced the fuel out through the leak (in the bottom of the can) and into the Rubbermaid container that everything was stored in. That Rubbermaid container had a hole in the bottom of it, and the fuel leaked through that hole and saturated the carpet in my van, and turned the van into a rolling bomb. No harm though, save for the fuel dissolving the glue holding the carpet down, which reset after it dried out, but had I not smelled the vapours and given them time to air out, I might have made the front page of the next day's newspaper.

Mind you, had that happened with kerosene, my van would have reeked of the stuff for months, if not forever.

To be fair, white gas does cone with several warnings on the can, like, EXTREME DANGER VERY FLAMMABLE POISON, and that's just on the front of the can. Once you get to the side panels, where it says "treat as you would gasoline" you get the idea that this isn't kid's stuff.

So on one hand, you have white gas with it's relative non smokiness, relative lack of smell, and not leaving your wicks reeking ( nor you, nor your audience ) but requiring an increased vigilance when it comes to handling and using it. On the other, kerosene, with it's awful reek and soot.

What else, Oh yea, accidents. THE most common accident that happens with white gas is the burning handles one. If you spill kero, or you leave your poi soaking in the fuel, for some strange reason people like to do this. and someone knocks the handles into the bucket and retrieves them without telling you, and you fail to notice that those handles are wet, if you light up your poi, you handles WILL light up as well ( I've seen this happen a few times ). Kero is much safer in this respect, your handles *probably* won't light. White gas does dry off the handles though, usually in a matter of minutes, whereas kero doesn't, so you just have to be prepared to give your handles time to "recover" from their swim, which sucks if it happens in the middle of a performance.

White gas is more toxic to both you, and the environment. Although technically it's an aliphatic, there's all sorts of nasty organic rings in there which are toxic on a cellular level.

White gas also leaves less "evidence" if your spinning on pavement. I spilled some kerosene in my driveway, on purpose, just to see how long it would take to evaporate. The verdict...three weeks, in the summer. OTOH, white gas is gone in minutes, but this only matters if you're spinning on someones nice patio. When it comes to spills however ( perish the thought ) kerosene is more biodegradable than white gas because it lacks all those nasty cyclic compounds. Both fuels will leave a dead spot on your lawn but white gas will leave you with a toxic site a lot longer. Thin what happens to closed gas stations with the soil remediation that goes on.

Wow, what a spew, I need to switch to decaf. wink

Good luck


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutOriginally Posted By: newgabe
If I write this info one more time on HoP I think I'll scream!!!

fuels that for all intents and purposes are specialty items and are very difficult to track down. I've found the equivalent of d60 here in Canada but only by emailing Shell's head office to find out what it's sold as locally only to be hooked up with a distributor who only sells it in minimum 20 litre buckets.


Ya, I buy it in 20l drums, six at a time. Though I might suggest, as an Australian wink that if you want to search some good non smelly non vaporising fuel out, search for the equivalent of Isopar G rather than d60 (which does have a faint odour and burns slightly yellower) Though shipping d60 is far easier, and it burns slightly cooler.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hi newgabe

I was thinking along the lines of...someone in North America who is wondering what fuel to use is *probably* looking for something they can just nip down to the hardware store and pick up, rather than something that has to be purchased on an industrial scale.

How hard is it to access isopar G in Australia ?

Strangely enough, when i googled "isopar G Canada" I brought up one of my own posts on the topic. One where I said i was going to email Imperial Oil Canada and ask 'em where I can get it. Turns out i did, but they never responded.

In thinking about it, with what I'm paying for white gas now ( over 4X the price of gasoline ) I'd be open to a "investing" in an alternative because the price for white has doubled in the past two tears.

Strange that, the price went up with the cost of oil last July, but never came down.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Stout,

Good to see you.

If white gas is 4X the price of gasoline, then hey why not use straight unleaded petrol? wink Its much the same sans the additives. Or you could try shellite, camping type fuel, similar in the danger to white gas (naptha), but available in most supermarkets, well Australian supermarkets.

I suppose the other thing over here in oz, it that there are a few companies like Juggleart that sell Firewater (similar to Shellsol and D60). Also you could try pure lamp oil.

BTW, what brand of coffee do you drink?

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hiya Stone.

Good to be back.

So why not use gasoline? Because of the smell.

I agree that from a safety perspective, naphtha and gasoline are pretty mush the same thing, and Coleman's reinforces that by print the statement I quoted above. I regularly refer to Coleman's as "gas" because, like the scenario I mentioned above, fueling up your car with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth, some people treat the fueling up area like it's nothing to be worried about.

Shellite is non existent here, nobodies ever heard of it, and most of our jugglers use BBQ lighter fluid for their fuel because it comes in handy squirt bottles.

I find "pure" lamp oil to be the same as (low sulphur) kero, same smell, same soot, same residual reek.

What brand of coffee? coughinstantcough ATM. Our coffee maker died, and I'm in no hurry to replace it because I'm enjoying the extra counter space.


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Mr_Joe
Mr_Joe

Part-time genius

Member Since: 27th Aug 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted:Originally Posted By: newgabe

Shellsol and d60 are not the same


Sorry, but that needs correcting. ShellSol is the name of a range of fuels produced by Shell, of which D60 is one. There are others like D40 in the same range but D60 is the one that seems to be favoured by spinners.

For back-garden type spinning paraffin is more than adequate. Yes, it's dirty as hell and it smells and blah blah blah, but it's much safer than anything most other people can get hold of. Things like D60 are pretty specialist and not the kind of thing you can pick up in a hardware store.

MSDS for D60 can be found here: http://www.scdynamiccontent.shell.com/Files%5Caliphaticmineralspirits_shellsold60_americas.pdf

EDITED_BY: Mr_Joe (1241873096)


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mr_Joe ShellSol is the name of a range of fuels produced by Shell, of which D60 is one. There are others like D40 in the same range but D60 is the one that seems to be favoured by spinners.



Fair call. THe specific Shellsol product that we used to use was ShellsolT. was probably the d40 you mentioned: now we buy it as Recosol G, Isopar G. That is different to d60, as described above and your MSDS.

Getting back to the topic.. ya the guy in the vid seems to make a fair case for lighter fluid. It must be expensive in the quantities used for fire poi or staffs though, rather than juggling?


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Stout, perhaps we should spin with instant coffee, it seems strong enough wink

In oz we would really be in trouble safety wise if people used white gas, luckily most use kero which is much less volatile.



Hi Mr Joe, do you think the D as in D60 stands for flash point in degrees C?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Stone: As far as I have been able to find out, yes.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks, aston.

Someone told me that, but I was not sure.

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Stone, sure we could spin with instant coffee, it would just be a matter of dissolving it in alcohol, making up a batch of hobo Kahlua. I used to drink a lot of that stuff when I was in elementary school, but I never thought of spinning with it.

On second thought, it would probably reek, or maybe it would have no smell at all, like when i burned up 12 bucks worth of "essential oil" trying to make scented poi.

Quote:In oz we would really be in trouble safety wise if people used white gas

Yes, you might just be.


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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Wow.... coffee dissolved in alcohol? What were you using, just by the way....

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Tequila, it was disgusting. About as disgusting as dissolving Tang crystals in vodka. You'd have to use Everclear if you wanted to use it as a fuel though.

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:0.o

Wow.... Just... wow....


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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