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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Prop Transitions Article- Noel-ski

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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:
Hey all I just wrote this all up and am curious if anyone else understands this, it has been a synthesis from many sources, finally ready and teachable for the general public...I actually think it is not as daunting to understand as it looks, and will prove very useful if you understand it.

Props to all the techies out there that make me think writing this kinda stuff is at all useful. (Ahem, Richee)


please open this picture in another window before reading through
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310


Two Object Transitions (for poi, clubs, staffs hands etc)

So for the practical reason for this diagram is to indicate places to transition into different timings and directions. The usefulness of this chart is only amplified by the fact that it can be applied to hands, poi, clubs, doubles and pretty much any two objects in circular motion.

Theoretically this chart also applies to hybrids and compound circles but I havent thought it to be clear enough to be transmitted via the internet. It is easy to apply to compound circles when making sure the prop timing is the same as the hand or extended circle timing.

If you are not comfortable with your basic timings and directions, you should practice those first before moving on and understanding what follows.

On the chart

1) Timings are listed these are
tog = same time
split = split time

The Directions are indicated as
Same= same direction
Opp= opposite direction

2) the big Os represent instances or looks of the poi or hands in these timing and directions. I only chose the four cardinal points cause these are the easiest to understand, (for me) other possibilities are possible.

3) One can move around the chart (changing one props direction) clockwise or counter clockwise to practice switching between different timing and directions. Going across the chart requires different understandings (changing timings within the same direction)
Since there is a direction change going around the chart you will be needing to use stalls or stops to move around the Chart.

4) All the Letters A-D and 1-4 for each number just help in describing stuffthey are pretty arbitrary, well kinda is this whole system =) , it has a use to help beginners understand how to move transition between timings and directions. Also I omitted thinking about right and left hands for the sake of theory.

It may help to just draw the whole thing without the numbers and letters to better visualize it.

"The diagram again" It would have been inserted here in the doc.
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310



One Example of how to use this chart:
With just arms do a TOG/SAME extension in any direction (through positions A.1-4) when your ready stop at the left or right (A. 2 or A.4)

You can see that from these two points you can transition to SPLIT/OPP from here. Namely from A.4 to B.4, or from A.2 to B.2. Remember every transition around the chart requires you to change one hands direction or to do 1 direction changes.

Now you are in SPLIT/OPP do a couple cycles here, next stop at the top and bottom with your hands. (positions B.1 and B.3) You can see that when your hands are at the top and bottom you can transition to SPLIT/SAME.

Continue in SPLIT/SAME for a while then when you find your hands at the sides (positions C.4 and C.2) you can transition to TOG/OPP.

Now you are in TOG/OPP, do a couple cycles when you are at the top or bottom (positions D.1 or D.3) you can complete the circuit by returning to TOG/SAME.



Further interesting notes:
This indicates the differences between different timings and directions but what about changing timings while not changing directions? This would be going across the chart.
(from A to C or from D to B)

The difference between SPLIT SAME and TOG/SAME is a 180 degree shift in timing.
What I mean is from TOG/SAME move one hang 180 degrees and you will be in the right positions for split same.

The difference between SPLIT/OPP and TOG/OPP is a matter of moving both points whether together or apart 90 degrees. An easier way to think about this is that SPLIT/OPP is the same as TOG/OPP just shifted 90 degrees (this is actually true in any plane too!! This means you can plane shift both poi from split opp to tog opposite)

I have found a bunch of other ways to go about going across the chart..I should be making a video soon bout some of this.

Hope you enjoy, I want everyone to comment and to add, because I want this to grow.bye!!

Noel-ski


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'm fairly sure I grasp this and grasp the applications for arms pretty well, had been playing with a few arm direction changing maneuvers to switch between different hybrids.

Poi same direction, arms opposites into poi same direction arms same direction hybrid using these different points.

My stalls have gotten to the point where direction and timing changes are intuitive there so confidently getting my head around applications for those properly may require video.

It seems so basic and yet it doesn't stop it from being interesting and limitless. smile Thanks for the post, Noelski.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Nice. This could be really useful for teaching.

I do not really understand what the numbers are for though. Surely all you need to explain is the letter?

Or am I missing something....


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:aston, the numbers are just the different points in a 4 point pattern.

Lets take B split opposite.

Its got 1 2 3 4 with bubbles next to them. If you do splittime opposites with your arms and pause at each point you'll find that at positions 2 and 4 there'll be two arms at the same position, hence two circles. 1 and 3 there'll be one at each hence one circle.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Ah! *click*

Makes sense now.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:Mother Nature,

Yeah I've thought about the hybrids a lot, but not sure how to make it make sense online... its hard cause starting with hand timing or prop timing changes how you understand transitions....

also how split/smae/staggered timing works withing extension and antispin hybrids is sooper confusing for me. I get the prop relative direction with two props different than the two hands but to convey that is sooper hard for me...any ideas?

Also, with the hybrids you create a polyrhythm which is hard for me to grasps timings..

thanks for reading!!


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'm not really great with understanding text based poi theory. I tend to make a video if I've got something I really want to convey.





They're not necessarily polyrhythms. You can have them so that they have the same number of beats in any number of ways.


My understanding of polyrhythms is also quite intuitive rather than theoretical so theres a good chance I'm wrong on the below since I think I'm largely babbling gibberish.

But a polyrhythm doesn't really upset the transition into something else very much anyway, you've just got to catch the one that is doing more so that it is at the same point that the other is and I'm reasonably certain that the arm circles(when in opposites) automatically dictate when the timings converge, I think otherwise they converge at the points your diagram indicates. While its theoretically possible to have the timings not converge in relation to arm circles I get the feeling that you'd feel unbalanced in doing so and that the 'natural' way to do the movements is to have the timings converge in relation to arm circles.


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dalef
BRONZE Member since Oct 2007

dalef

dubbles extraordinaire
Location: , USA

Total posts: 36
Posted:Noel, i was conceiving doing a video about this. beat me to it grin

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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:Dale,

You should still make that video!

I doubt I'll get round to it anytime soon. Plus its easiest to do with doubles or clubs ya know.


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dalef
BRONZE Member since Oct 2007

dalef

dubbles extraordinaire
Location: , USA

Total posts: 36
Posted:Noel,

Its on my list of videos to do. Me and a couple east coasters have some big plans we hope to unveil by the end of this year. Gearing up right now for it, going to be humongously amazingly awesome. Its definitely going to need some west coast support, but I'll get at you when it comes time.

Also trying to find something to add to kindle...


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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:West coast support here!!

Mother Nature:

You are right they don't need to be polyrhythm. I do notice that many of the hybrids look the nicest when they are alternating between timings. For example the split same hands and alternating between split and same opposite poi..

Dale!

You going to Wildfire?
West coast support here all the way!
when are YOU making another video!!! Ahem!


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dalef
BRONZE Member since Oct 2007

dalef

dubbles extraordinaire
Location: , USA

Total posts: 36
Posted:Noel, I'll have to convince sage pretty hard to go to wildfire...she has her heart set on seeing skream and benga play with sphongle here in bmore at the same time.

All of my video efforts are going towards this project, we're shooting a teaser this next weekend...with hopes to have the project launched in full effect by firedrums 2010. Working hard to get a really nice camera for the crew at the moment.

And trying to figure out green screen and learning the ropes of full on production. Big things to come!!


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kdldamn
SILVER Member since Feb 2008

stranger
Location: Texas, USA

Total posts: 23
Posted:I may not be as good as Noel, but you've got my support as well. I hope I can be of some help.

So, what's up?

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Yeah! I wanna see it!

Hurry up and get it done....


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA

Total posts: 159
Posted:If you talking about what I think you are talking about, then what you are talking about is easier for me to practice with double staffs then it is with poi, namely reels with double staffs, because ridged weapons are easier to freeze/stall and change direction. However I agree with you about shared common positions being a good way to think about transitions.

This is a good model. We can simplify and expand the idea a bit more but this is a great start and a good way of thinking about it. I am pondering now if this same model can apply to other transitions besides moving between the different timing and direction combinations of extensions with stalls, such as transitioning between say something simple like non extended forwards and backwards reels or weaves.


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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:Dyami, true it is much easier with static props instead of soft ones.

I actually thought this model was pretty simple =)

I am interested to see how you make this work without ultimately falling into timing and direction...

I just shot a bunch of 3-D plane "breaking" stuff with G that goes over a lot of these ideas, but involving flowers...

But first I gotta finish my hybrids video...

That should be out soon.


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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA

Total posts: 159
Posted:Groovy, the plane changing flowers stuff is one of my favorite areas of the field right now, looking forwards to the videos. I like them because I've started thinking in polyhedrons (it is all three dimensional space anyways) and what those patterns would look like all in the fourth dimension (meaning all time happening together rather then only the cuts sections of it we perceive). I have a feeling Arashi has already been thinking about poi this way for a while because as soon as i had that realization about dimensions, more of what I have seen him do began to make sense.

I am still thinking of a clear way to convey my thoughts on the transition theory and will get back to you in further depth later. What I'm going on is that I see how this model works for direction changes to the circle (weather that is extended or compound or not), I'm not sure yet if it applies more simply to transitions in the broader sense of changing between sides of the body without changing the momentum of the poi or if it can explain transitions between moves which are in different technical classes but which also do not change their directional momentum.

EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1242846806)
EDIT_REASON: spelling


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G4dget
GOLD Member since Aug 2006

G4dget

Eternal Student of all things Skill
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA

Total posts: 110
Posted:Just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I saw a video with the unit circle grid and really love seeing new things. I'll have to study this for awhile but I understand the idea.

Happiness runs in a circular motion!!

G4dget

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA

Total posts: 159
Posted:Alright, I found another component to the mecca of transition theory I've been looking for and it is the Neutral Positions that can be indefinitely static and which any other move with the same timing and direction goes through at some point in their pattern or uses when moving from one orientation to another.

I found them because of a move my Teacher called lockouts in weaves which Nick W demonstrates the application of in his Turning with the 3-Beat Weaves video:




Nick doesn't really show the position with static spin here, he only shows the simple beat extended version of it. But from that idea the basic definition for it I've come to like is this: both poi on same side of body on parallel planes (one slightly further away then the other) with arms just over a poi length apart (so that closer in poi will not hit your other arm).

There are a lot of beautiful things that can be done without even leaving the neutral position such as isolating it or doing hybrid combinations but the real genius I see in it is with primarily transitions and also as a control building technique. Any of the combinations of timing and direction can be applied to the position as well as other major variations such as centers of rotation.

Once we recognize that possibility we can take any of those variations and do them in any plane and on any given side of a plane: front and back wall, left and right wheel, high and low horizontal, and in any arm orientation we can bend them to as well. For example in the front wall plane the arms can be horizontal uncrossed, vertically stacked, crossed one over the other horizontally which is something useful for the wall plane flower or isolation patterns.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:This was also mentioned in trying to pin down a definition of lockouts on the weekend I think. wink

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:Brian and I made a doubles video where the last tricks in the video relate to the prop transitions article, changing timing and directions every quarter messing with changing hand or prop direction.

Pretty cool stuff



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Noelski


member


Total posts: 129
Posted:Also didn't really post it on this thread but the video that G and I made features much of the same content of the chart. Especially later in the video where g changes poi and rm timing and direction and also plane.

I.e split opposite prop/hands to split same prop/hands w/ a plane change (2:06-2:20 in the video)





I am working on a part two that will focus very closely on the prop timing and direction as well.


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