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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:There's been talk and news of the possibility of trying Bush and others in his camp for International War Crimes.

There are other countries with these laws in place in such a manner that should he set foot on their soil, they can arrest him and put him on trial for them.

I agree with this and believe in accountability.

Thoughts?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 20th Aug 2007
Total posts: 315
Posted:Well, Bush should probably watch what soil he puts his feet onto then.

I agree though, everybody should be held accountable for their actions, including the President of the U.S.A, in fact, ESPECIALLY, the President.

I'm not saying he's guilty, in fact, I'd probably say he'd be found innocent, but who knows, but I do support trying him, it never hurts to try...

That said, I doubt it'll ever happen for diplomatic reasons. A country would have to be pretty ballsy to try an ex-president of the U.S for war crimes. Pretty ballsy indeed.


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willworkforfoodjnr
willworkforfoodjnr

Hunting robot foxes
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
Member Since: 8th Aug 2007
Total posts: 1046
Posted:Yup, unfortunately no country has got the power to be arresting Bush and 'get away' with it. (save perhaps china?) But hopefully I'm wrong.

I'd be more interested in seeing Olmert tried right now to be honest, proof of white phosphourus being shot at a UN school in gaza? Do him!


Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:They certainly could get away with it. I seriously doubt the US is going to take on the UN and nato over a ex president, and many countrys may wish to separate themselves from the US at this time.

The less people know the more they believe

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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:+1 I say hang him.

Human

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:i think if he were to go to somesuch countries it could happen, but i dont think he would ever go to those countries in the first place.

just because he is stupid does not mean his advisors are.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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MikefromGlos
MikefromGlos

Hitman
Location: Gloucester England
Member Since: 10th Jul 2006
Total posts: 985
Posted:or that his daddy is ethier lets face it we all know he just did what his dadd said to do

he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.

Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:Actually I really doubt that. Im pretty sure is father actually realized the folly of occupying iraq, which is why he didn't do it, and he infact gave a interview with times magazine explaining that he was afraid exactly what's going on no would occur if he occupied iraq (this interview was given in 96 or something like that)

Dick cheney and dunald rumsfield and the gang certainly were always itching to get in their.


The less people know the more they believe

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Thing is Bush could've said no.
He has the right to do so as our "Commander".
His daddy knew better.
He was arrogant enough to think he wouldn't be held accountable, and frankly, he and Chaney and Rumsfield *need* to be held accountable for everything.

A criminal profiler recently ran a profile on Bush, as well as a couple others in our joyful political system, and they were found to exhibit all of the symptoms of sociopaths. The belief that everyone is beneath them mentally, they are smarter, better, etc. and others are meant to serve them. They do not recognise large mistakes of their own and do not accept responsibility for their actions. The list went on but in the end he was likened to the mentality of Charles Manson, David Koresh and other "cult" leaders.
The recent interviews he has been giving just solidify that to me.

I would *love* to see him held accountable and see if he could stupidly smirk and giggle his way through that


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:I would like to know who the REAL bush is.

Look at 2000 campaign bush and compare it to now.

I'd just like to know the truth about what happened, I'd like to know who was in charge, I'd like to know the real reasoning I just don't want conjecture and opinion, I'd just like to know what actually happened.

Frankly I wouldn't even know what reasonable punishment would be for what they did.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:MRC, hang by the neck until dead.

Obama has stated that investigating the Bush Administration will not be a priority. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I would like to see our full resources pointed towards turning the country around and trying to restore us to what we once were before Bush trashed the place.

On the other hand, I would feel better sending a strong message to future generations that this sort of behavior will get you your due.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:Death penalty has been dropped for awhile in internatioanl war crime trails, bush is certainly not worse then say, slobodan milosevic, although he may not serve the best example, he's probably the most heinous war criminal to come to trial in recent times, to bad he died before they finished the job. They weren't seeking the death penalty for him, but most likely would have sentenced him to life in prison. I think reduceing someones existance to a jail cell is far more punishment then death. In cases where the prisoner refuses to take neccesary medications like what happened with milosevic they should be forced apon them, and they should be watched closely enough so suicide isn't a option.

The less people know the more they believe

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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: MRCI would like to know who the REAL bush is.

Look at 2000 campaign bush and compare it to now.

I'd just like to know the truth about what happened, I'd like to know who was in charge, I'd like to know the real reasoning I just don't want conjecture and opinion, I'd just like to know what actually happened.

Frankly I wouldn't even know what reasonable punishment would be for what they did.

NWO : The invisible hand...







Human

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: Doc LightningMRC, hang by the neck until dead.

Obama has stated that investigating the Bush Administration will not be a priority. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I would like to see our full resources pointed towards turning the country around and trying to restore us to what we once were before Bush trashed the place.

On the other hand, I would feel better sending a strong message to future generations that this sort of behavior will get you your due.

That last bit I think is hugely necessary.
I don't view an investigation as looking back (which is what Obama has called it). I view it as a positive step and message forward, a much needed one.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: PeleI don't view an investigation as looking back (which is what Obama has called it). I view it as a positive step and message forward, a much needed one.

Obama saying it is looking back is like forgiving homicides after the murderer is found. Lies and deceit, lies and deceit.


Human

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I agree with doppel. I want justice. Laws were broken. People were hurt, killed, and worse. And the worst part about it was that there seemed to be no motive! No organized thought or goal. It didn't seem to be for personal gain. It just seemed to be pure base, gut-reaction, meathead idiocy.

My theory is that if Obama went after him, the GOP leadership would go to complete war. It could bring down the country. If there is a sense of leadership, it is because that very noisy far right that got almost half of the population to vote for McCain/Palin is still there. They aren't gone and they aren't going away. And they aren't going to be convinced when the country is turning around in 4 years and when it is thriving in 8 years.

And so you don't piss them off. You don't give them a reason to rally. You don't give them a rallying point. Trying Bush would only help Bush II come into office.

And so Obama is taking the high road. But I wish he didn't have to.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: Doc LightningAnd so you don't piss them off. You don't give them a reason to rally. You don't give them a rallying point. Trying Bush would only help Bush II come into office.

And so Obama is taking the high road. But I wish he didn't have to.

You mean Bush III?
And Jeb has already said when he runs he is thinking of changing his name (what a freakin' indiot!).

I wish he didn't have to.

My office was talking the other day about what this country needs is a good ol' fashion revolution. Not necessarily with guns blazing French style but pitchforks and sit-ins wouldn't be bad. However, it would take all the middle class and poor to be in on it and in step, not only against the politicians but also against the CEO's and boards of companies (don't get me started!!!), etc.
Problem is, we can't organize ourselves through the fear enough to do such a thing so they will keep pretending it's going to be okay with a signature here and there and no accountability.

I truly believe holding GW and his cronies accountable would not only send a message to future politicians, but to the GOP that their crap won't be taken anymore.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:in the 60's and 70's people tried to change the establishment, and they just tired out and became the establishment. I don't think theirs nearly as much momentum for any type of drastic change now as their was then. Ofcourse I wasn't alive then so I may be buying into the romantiscm of the whole era.

The less people know the more they believe

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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: PeleProblem is, we can't organize ourselves through the fear enough to do such a thing so they will keep pretending it's going to be okay with a signature here and there and no accountability.

The people should never fear the government, the government should fear it's people. ~Someone famous I can't find right now...

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny...

I agree with you there Pele, I myself have protested and been shot down. A lot of people are so much more comfortable just letting everything happen, and they ridicule those who see changes that need to be made, sadly the revolutionaries, peaceful or not, are far outweighed by the masses that, not be be blunt or mean, but the masses that have been dulled down with TV, the next big game, the cool new product, and things like this . They don't want change, they are afraid of it, however there will come a point when it's too late, and by then those that choose to fight (again peacefully or not) will lose and that's when *oppression* truly rears its head... I may just be rambling but I have so much to say about this topic and ones like it that sometimes it comes out as a glop trying to reach people.


Human

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:The people I've spoken with don't fear the gov't at all. I know I don't.
If anything they are too lax in important matters and too strict in other areas. They focus on foriegn shores when they need to work on things here.
It's been this way for decades.
That's not fear at all. What we have is disdain for the gov't.

What we fear is the wrath of the CEO's.
Such a revolution would require everyone to unify. For corporate lackies to stop working. For revolutions against financial institutions. To demand accountability.
In return we fear having no job, because having a low paying job where we are underappreciated, underpaid and overwork is better than nothing at this point.
We fear the deaf ear that will be turned to us and how deep it will cut. Revolution is always a double edged sword. How long would everything have to stop production in order for CEO's and Gov't to get the point? I can garuntee we would feel it far earlier and harder than they would.

I fear not being able to provide for my son far more than I've ever feared my gov't.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:If we restore balance to the federal government (remove the executive ability to spend, or make any legal decision/law/order), perhaps put effort into streamlining the judicial system so that it does not clog, and so that trials can occur when they are relevant. I think if we also reduce the power of the federal government as a whole, we'd be better off. Our local governments should be what we are concerned with, we need to return to the concept of the States within a Union, and not one massive homunculus-district filled country.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:MRC, federalization has its good and bad points.

What if slavery was still legal in south of the Mason-Dixie line? What if gays could still be stoned to death in Texas?

Pele, the very structure of the U.S. is that we can stage a revolution every 2 years by voting our government out of office. The problem is that only about 53% of voters voted for Obama. To the best of my knowledge, no president has EVER won a true majority of all eligible voters.

So the revolution you want can't happen. Because 47% of the population oppose it.

Personally, I agree with MRC to a degree. But my solution is to end the U.S. entirely. Let the Southern states form their long-awaited Confederacy and let the rest of us continue on. I predict complete economic and societal collapse of the South within 20 years after such a move, anyway.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:This reminds me of a component of a Douglas Adams novel in which a character discusses the political situation of a certain planet...

Originally Posted By: Douglas Adams On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"


hug

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Derwyn
Derwyn

Lightworker
Location: New Mexico
Member Since: 10th Jan 2009
Total posts: 88
Posted:LOL!!!! I love Douglas Adams!! laugh3

"When we dance with the faeries, we dance with the reflections of our true selves and the true inner self of the world."

"If you keep thinking like that, you'll never get to meet a Unicorn."

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:Doc, those reasons that shed positive light on the fed are not moot in my ideal (constitutional) government. We are united STATES. Each one of these states is already its own small nation we have simply entered into an agreement, much like the EU, but we let ours get out of hand.

Digressing...

The Executive, as the enforcer of the federal constitution can step in and say "you are not following the terms you've agreed on, we will cut you off from all the benefits of the union."

It's that simple, no state in this union is even capable of surviving on its own, our environments and economies are all too focused on resource sharing we have a global economy and not a local one, so in that event of embargo on our own state...that'd be a pretty firm and effective message.

Or we could dismantle everything, give it back to the natives and let them sort out some laws.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Originally Posted By: MRCDoc, those reasons that shed positive light on the fed are not moot in my ideal (constitutional) government. We are united STATES. Each one of these states is already its own small nation we have simply entered into an agreement, much like the EU, but we let ours get out of hand.

Is it? The EU has enjoyed a spectacular rise in economic power since its federalization. What they have going for them is the fact that all the countries speak different languages. That simple fact will prevent the sort of federalization that the U.S. has. You might be able to freely live in Germany if you're Spanish... but would you want to if you don't speak a lick of German?

On the other hand, I do wonder if the E.U. would do well to federalize a bit more. Specifically, I would like to see the E.U. invest a bit more in its military. Why? So the next time some nutty cracker winds up in the White House and decides to start invading sovereign nations just for sh!ts and giggles the E.U. can say "Sorry, bub. But all those battleships and carriers have to get through OUR battleships and carriers, first." Might also be nice to have them say "No, we really WOULD like you to sign and abide by that Kyoto accord or we will start bombing you."
Quote:
The Executive, as the enforcer of the federal constitution can step in and say "you are not following the terms you've agreed on, we will cut you off from all the benefits of the union."

I just had a very careful read over the entire Constitution and there are two things I can't find. I cannot find a clause that expressly prohibits states from declaring independence from the U.S.

There is this clause: "Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility."

And then I cannot find any clause providing for a method by which a state COULD legally declare independence. I don't think they thought about that possibility any more than they thought about the idea that Florida could tip up and land on top of Georgia.

Quote:
It's that simple, no state in this union is even capable of surviving on its own, our environments and economies are all too focused on resource sharing we have a global economy and not a local one, so in that event of embargo on our own state...that'd be a pretty firm and effective message.

California MIGHT be able to pull it off, but it would be a rough start.

Quote:Or we could dismantle everything, give it back to the natives and let them sort out some laws.

I'm sorry, but they don't have any more right to this land than I do. I was born here. As were the last seven generations of my family. Nobody alive today had anything to do with the things that happened then, horrible as they might have been. And...guess what? The natives are immigrants, too. They came out of Asia. Maybe they should give the continent back to the animals they usurped?

EDITED_BY: Doc Lightning (1233545759)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Lev
Firedance Philosopher
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Member Since: 19th Jan 2009
Total posts: 79
Posted:If the actions of the US presidency were told as a story before it came to pass, I couldn't have taken it seriously.
"The Geneva conventions policy on torture is subjective."
Absolutely ridiculous, the only reason I think Bush should be tried is that as a societal standpoint people should know that they cant get away with this kind of thing, where as I usually would be apposed to causing harm since so many forms of punishment generally do more harm than good IMHO.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Originally Posted By: LevIf the actions of the US presidency were told as a story before it came to pass, I couldn't have taken it seriously.
"The Geneva conventions policy on torture is subjective."
Absolutely ridiculous, the only reason I think Bush should be tried is that as a societal standpoint people should know that they cant get away with this kind of thing, where as I usually would be apposed to causing harm since so many forms of punishment generally do more harm than good IMHO.

Frankly, I'd just be happy to see him waterboarded until he publicly admits that it was wrong.

I predict it will take less than 60 seconds.

I've been waterboarded (voluntarily) and I lasted a whole 180 seconds before I told the man that I would happily have sexual relations with Madeleine Albright. Actually, the exact phrase I had to say to get him to stop was far more...er...descriptive than that, but not suitable for a family board. And I said it. You will do ANYTHING to make it stop. I MIGHT have lasted another 60-120 seconds before I would have actually killed a small mammal to make it stop. It's awful. It's really awful.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:Originally Posted By: Doc LightningOriginally Posted By: LevIf the actions of the US presidency were told as a story before it came to pass, I couldn't have taken it seriously.
"The Geneva conventions policy on torture is subjective."
Absolutely ridiculous, the only reason I think Bush should be tried is that as a societal standpoint people should know that they cant get away with this kind of thing, where as I usually would be apposed to causing harm since so many forms of punishment generally do more harm than good IMHO.

Frankly, I'd just be happy to see him waterboarded until he publicly admits that it was wrong.

I predict it will take less than 60 seconds.

I've been waterboarded (voluntarily) and I lasted a whole 180 seconds before I told the man that I would happily have sexual relations with Madeleine Albright. Actually, the exact phrase I had to say to get him to stop was far more...er...descriptive than that, but not suitable for a family board. And I said it. You will do ANYTHING to make it stop. I MIGHT have lasted another 60-120 seconds before I would have actually killed a small mammal to make it stop. It's awful. It's really awful.



I can agree with that, although I think a couple years of extreme sleep deprivation and interogators playing mind games bringing on complete psychosis would be very appropriate aswell. and being forced to masturbate infront of an interogator, or being subjected to sensory deprivation torture, I could go on on about things the US have done in prisons in cuba afghanistan and iraq.

EDITED_BY: railspinner (1233609087)


The less people know the more they believe

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Or even worse... make him watch reruns of roxanne with only marmite to eat.

hug

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Originally Posted By: railspinnerand being forced to masturbate infront of an interogator,

Wait. Stop. EVERYBODY STOP.

We're talking about George W. Bush. You want him to do WHAT?

The poor interrogator!

Sorry, Railspinner, but that's just too cruel and inhumane (to the interrogator). You're way over the line.

wink


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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