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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > polyrhythm poi (plus assorted antispin ramblings)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:this one has not been easy to write up but hopefully some of it makes sense to some of you that are kind enough to read it.



please ask for clarification if its required anywhere - i'm happy to talk more crap or come back and edit the main text to make it clearer if it needs it.



there's a few (hastily filmed) video exapmles dotted around and about - you'll find a clip wherever you see one of these: *

please try and download the videos (right click, save as...) rather than streaming them or my website will stop working hug



and so...





polyrhythm poi

===========




don't let the funny word in the title scare you - this is simply spinning your poi at different speeds.



first of all, you need to know what this is all about so you should understand at least what 'polyrhythm' means and how to tap the most simple polyrhythms out (e.g 3:2).



if that is complete gibberish or you just want to know a bit more about polyrhythms, click here to see a thread that will fill you in smile





i've tried giving workshops on this over the last year and found it near impossible to teach due to the base concepts being alien to most people (and possibly because i didn't have a full idea then of the best way to teach it, but we'll ignore that for now wink).



this thread is the first part of my revised workshop, followed by a description of the notation that i use to describe these patterns and work out new ones.



the aim is to get people to have a go at spinning their poi at different speeds and then to give us a way of describing what we are doing so that we (hopefully) have a better chance of sharing, both here and in the real world smile





okay, let's begin...

everyone's always banging on about learning the basics before the advanced stuff and blah, blah, blah...

funny enough, i think that lesson is especially important when dealing with this area of poi.



there are two major techniques you can employ to vary the speed of your poi:



variable radius and variable speed



variable radius involves moving from say wrist circles to elbow or to full arm circles, thereby moving the poi head further away from the centre of rotation.



variable speed involves adding and taking away speed from the poi head by changing the amount of force you apply to keep the poi spinning (this is by far the harder of the two techniques but allows for far more variation).



for the geeks: the the first technique changes the linear velocity (while keeping angular velocity constant) and the second technique changes the angular velocity - big up the geek massive, seen? wink





here are two basic exercises to illustrate these concepts:



exercise one | variable radius - side circles with 2:1 poi *

spin parallel wrist circles in wheel plane.

now make one of those circles into a long arm circle but try to keep the (linear) speed of the poi constant.

because the long arm poi is spinning in a bigger circle (and therefore travelling along a longer path), you should find that just spinning a larger circle adjusts the speeds, so that the poi spinning wrist circles does two beats for every one beat of the full arm circle.



remember how it feels to tap out a 2:1 rhythm with your hands and concentrate on getting the simultaneous beats (the big circle beat and every other small circle beat) to hit at the same time.



try it on both sides i.e. try the big (slow) circle with your other arm.



things to watch out for:

- don't let the arm spinning the big circle speed up.

- don't put an extra beat in at the top of your big circle (your hand will probably want to do this by itself, especially if you've been playing with flowers a lot).





exercise two | variable speed - side circles with 2:1 poi *

this is most definitely the harder of the two techniques.

to begin with, don't worry about speed ratios and getting the rhythm right.



start by spinning parallel wrist circles in wheel plane again and just play around with speeding up and slowing down one poi whilst keeping the other one at a constant speed.



when you start to feel some control over the independent speed of your poi try this:



spin parallel wrist circles in wheel plane.

just after a beat hits (i.e. just after your poi pass the lowest point on their circles), speed up one of your poi to twice its original speed, and into hitting the beats on a 2:1 rhythm.

you should eventually be able to make this speed adjustment within the time it takes the slower poi to do one beat.



describing that beat by beat:

begin with both poi at the same speed (both hit beats at the same time)

immediately following a beat, increase the speed up one of your poi (hence it does an extra beat on its own).

on the next beat both poi should hit at the same time again and from there on, you should be hitting a 2:1 rhythm smile



try slowing the faster poi back down so that you slow straight into a normal (1:1) speed ratio - really aim to hit those beats.



mastering this technique of speeding up and slowing down poi to change and obtain specific speed ratios over the space of one beat (that's the beats of the slower speed poi, otherwise referred to as the 'base beat') is vital if you really want to play with polyrhythm poi.





playtime

right, once you have those basics down, have a go at putting them to use:



play lots with spinning two static circles anywhere and dropping into and out of 2:1 rhythms over the space of one base beat - remember to try it with both hands.



try the same thing but use the variable radius technique to vary the speed ratios.



try the two basic exercises above with poi 3:2.



spin side circles poi 2:1, and try turning 180 degrees, ensuring that you keep the speed ratio before, during and after the turn.



reels, poi 2:1 *

don't freak out about spinning a pattern!

spinning poi 2:1 reels isn't much harder than poi 2:1 side circles:

spin the poi 2:1 side circles, turn 90 degrees, crossover planes for every base beat smile

try turning with this pattern too.



reels, poi 3:2 *

don't freak out that you're trying a 3:2 pattern!

again, this is easier than it sounds, especially if you do it like this:

for the poi spinning 3 circles, spin one beat in front at the hip, one behind at the shoulder and one behind at hip - the other poi just does normal hip reel circles, one in front at hip, one behind at hip.

spin this so that the beats coincide when the faster poi is doing the front hip circle (the other poi should be hitting the rear hip circle).



for those that like flowers and and fancy a bit of a challenge, try spinning some flowers with 2:1 poi.

don't forget to count your beats at the centre (as the poi passes your arm).

the poi spinning at the faster speed should do twice the number of petals as the other arm does - there are some lovely new flower patterns in there smile





so, you may have noticed that everything so far feels distinctly one-sided - these patterns have all been asymmetric.



that was always going to happen if we describe what we are doing by saying poi 'a' is going at twice the speed of poi 'b' - to get a symmetrical pattern, we would obviously have to swap the speeds of poi 'a' and poi 'b' at some point.



well, hopefully you've been trying some of these variable speed patterns using your weak hand as well as your dominant one because here's an example of a simple symmetrical polyrhythm pattern... smile



my first symmetrical polyrhythm poi pattern - video of ttn variations (described below) here *

spin a forwards butterfly or better, a forwards thread the needle.

now spin one of the poi in a long arm circle, thereby slowing it down so the other poi does two circles in the same time as one longarm circle is completed.

you may find it easier to spin as 3:1.

its fun to see see how high you can get that ratio - spin those wrist circles as fast as you can!

just for a laugh, try and spin it the other way too i.e. spin long arm circles with the slow poi devil



when you have this pattern solid on both sides, try switching which hand does the big circle on every long arm beat.



this is a 2:1 thread the needle smile



the pattern should end up as:



2:1 ttn - right poi spins long arm circle while left spins two wrist circles, when the long arm hand passes the other hand (through the normal ttn hand position) and the beats coincide, switch so that left poi spins long arm circle while right spins two beats. repeat.





so, now we have an idea of what techniques we have to create these patterns, we can finally get on to how to best describe them... smile





here comes the sciencey bit...

first off, feel free to skip this bit for now if you're not interested ubbrollsmile



i have found three methods to describe polyrhythm (x:y) patterns that cover just about all the patterns i can spin (and suggest loads more that should be possible).



i'll quickly summarise them here so we can use them to easily describe the patterns we come up with smile



poi x:y *

the x:y ratio refers to the beat ratio of one poi to the other.

e.g. poi 2:1 means one poi does twice the number of beats that the other does, all of the time.



planar x:y *

the x:y ratio here refers to the beat ratio between two (or more) planes.

e.g. planar 2:1 [back wallplane:front wallplane] means that a poi in the rear wallplane will spin twice the number of beats as one in the front wallplane.

or, to say it another way, when a poi is behind you, it spins at twice the speed as in front of you.



positional x:y *

the x:y ratio here refers to the beat ratio of a certain position(s) in a pattern relative to the remainder of the pattern.

e.g. 3bt weave with positional 2:1 [whenever a hand is crossed over on top of the other arm] means that when a hand crosses over the body on top of the other arm it should be spin at twice the 'normal' speed (or 'double the base beat' if that makes more sense to you).

this results in a symmetrical, 4bt pattern with 3bt arm movements - we like that.





some things to note about these methods of description are:



they are not deterministic by any means i.e. they don't tell you what is and isn't possible, they just describe what's there already quite well.



there are a few patterns that can be described just as well using one of these methods as another.

still, as the moves get more complex, usually one of the methods will yield a far more concise description than the others.



often, attempting to use a method to describe a pattern that it can't adequately describe will lead to a nice variation instead smile



there are a few (complex) polyrhythm patterns that require the beat ratio to be split across particular sections of a plane to describe them completely - this method of description is like a mix of positional x:y and planar x:y but it is far from ideal.



there are a few moves that do not fit neatly into one of these three description methods at all and seem in fact to defy any concise description.

i'm hoping that means i'm missing a more general way of describing these patterns.

i have a good feeling that true polyrhythm poi is closely interlocked with advanced crossover theory.

and maybe that will reveal itself at some point in the future when we have delved deeper... umm





ubbrollsmile



right, that's it meditate



most important with all this stuff - don't forget to smile now and then biggrin





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Acciaio
SILVER Member since Jan 2006

Acciaio

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Total posts: 187
Posted:Ok thanx coleman...I've understand a 20 % more than before... XDXDXD
I'll wait for a somewhere european convention to meet someone that can explain it to me :P

Cheers

Acciaiodevil


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:So...
Mildly interesting poly stuff:

3:2 - One hand does hip reel (that's the 2), the other does an extra beat over the shoulder (a la "wiggle"/fountain - i.e. the 3) - backside reel is always in time. Works in butterfly or chase variation.
Can also switch the hip-reels to shoulder reels.

4:3 - the 4 is just a wall plane reverse (or anti-spin if you want) b/f flower, the 3 is as above - hip,shoulder, backside (but other 3-bt variation obviously also work) - again, poi always come up together infront of you.

1:3 - Same as above but just long-arm circle.

4:3 Rev. Butterfly Hip-reels/shoulder reels - Poi come "up" together, alternating between coming up together infront or behind.
Then turn them smile


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:nice one durbs hug



 Written by: Durbs



So...

Mildly interesting poly stuff:



3:2 - One hand does hip reel (that's the 2), the other does an extra beat over the shoulder (a la "wiggle"/fountain - i.e. the 3) - backside reel is always in time. Works in butterfly or chase variation.

Can also switch the hip-reels to shoulder reels.







that was the first polyrhythm move i ever learnt biggrin



it was pk's fault ubbrollsmile



you can mix the opposite version with bf waistwraps really nicely - i have about 8 variations of this.



it was this set of moves that first got me thinking about the stuff i go on about in the first post of this thread.



like how sometimes a 3:2 reel as you describe above, ends up being spun more like 1:1 in the front wallplane and 2:1 in rear wallplane, adding up to a 3:2 beat ratio (if done with just one hand) across the pattern, but building an accented rhythm rather than a pure polyrhythm.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:You can also make the 3:2 as above into a 4:3 by squeezing in a hip reel and shoulder reel in the space of the 3.



Then try alternating the hands doing 3 or 4 biggrin


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:indeed biggrin



4:3 pops my head every time i try it and seems a bit restrictive but i'll have to learn it now damn you! wink



i can do the 3:2 with swaps - lots more complex stuff than that too...



2:1 (frontwallpane:backwallplane) reels are a 3:2 based hand swapping pattern.



bf waistwraps with this applied are mental and i have no idea about how to count them properly ubbloco



it would be handy to play with someone that can tell me what i'm doing someday! wink





cole. x

EDITED_BY: coleman (1162296665)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Looks like that someday will have to be the 14th at Spitz if you fancy smile
Gig-tastic at the moment biggrin


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

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Posted:sounds like a plan (and really good to hear you're booked up).

i haven't been to spitz for aaaaaaaages redface


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

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Posted:not as long as me.

crazy number poi'ers.... ubblol

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Soooooooo, poly-rhythm arms biggrin

I've been playing with 4:1 arms. (L:R in this example) where basically every time your left arm gets to vertical, your right arm will have moved 90 degrees.
Have to be careful where you start this move as otherwise you end up with both arms out behind you (unless you turn at vertical)

X:1 ratios are alright - X:2 are iffy X:3 confuse my poor little brain smile

I'm also a little unsure as to whether they're really worth doing, but on a technical level there's lots of potential for wierdness with poly' arms and poly' poi flowers.
e.g. R:L 4:1 arms :2:3 poi anyone wink


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Mireneye
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Posted:Something hit me the other day.

Is it possile to play polyrhythms with two poi in one hand?
From an emmediete technical perspective, from what we know so far, probably not. However here's an example of what "MIGHT" work.

I was playing with a 4:1 Butterfly. Where the arms also follow each other in a circle. One doing long arm, the other following doing 4 beats.

Then I tried handing one poi over to the other to see if it could keep the 4:1 rythm. I was vaugly sucsessful for a second perhaps, then it fell apart. I can only imagine how cool it would be to do something like that.

Imagine and practice like mad =)


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Mireneye
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Posted:Ok so above mentioned is perfectly possible. Havn't succseeded myself but i know some Swedish spinners who are able to do it now.

New butterfly polyrythm ( at least to me ) :
1,Cross your arms poi doing reverse butterfly in wallplane.
2,The hand on top does a long arm going up,right,down to original position but this time under the hand it started at.
3,The hand on the bottom goes down,left,up in antispin to original position but this time appears above the other hand.
4,Repeat and smile ubblol


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Andy/PoiBox was doing some one-handed poly butterflies a while ago I think, like the 3:1 goofy hybrid butterfly but one handed...

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Mireneye
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Posted:Cool, yeah I think it's the same polyrythm we are talking about.

I think my explanation of the move in the last post became reverse. Well, play with it anyway wink


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Mireneye
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Posted:Some things that came to my mind a few days ago.

All opposite polyrhythms are possible in Buzzaw plane as well. ( well almost ).

So are all same direction stuff that are mostly polyrythmic based on speed and not length of arm + extension.

Also wanted to toss out some ideas of lego-poi? + polyrythm where hands are doing sametime wallplane and arms extend in opposite to each other towards the top of the circle the arms can make and meet again. The poi of one arm having done a few antispins. And the other poi having done one big circle.

After that you can either pass through still with arms doing opposites. Or you can reverse the arms.

Remembering to keep the poi in same-time, forward together or backward together.

Play.

This can of course be done without polyrhythm, in split-time or quarter-time, and a lot of other variations. But you probably know those already, so this one was most interesting to describe.

biggrin


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Mireneye
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Posted:Came up with some polyrythm + floats combinations that I've never seen before. Gonna try catch it on a video and upload sometime soon hopefully ( I'm god-awful at doing that ).

Cheers


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16.15.8
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16.15.8

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Posted:After reading about the onehanded polythm thing above I realize that I can do polythms confused, never actually understood what it was. But now I think I understand, it is when youre other hand do more beats than the other one.

Do that means that when one hand is doing antispin flower and the other one going other way in longarm, is that polytythm?

With one hand I can do a three and four beat with one chain and the other doing one beat. After some time of practice I wanna be able to freely play like this but both doing one beat each and one of them isolated. Is that understandeble? Do anyone do this kind of isolations in onehanded butterfly? I wanna see :P

Once again, I cant describe how much im looking forward o meet anyone of yu poinerds out there that can explain all the things you are talking about :P

//Thomas


"I dont like shoes, definitely not spinning with shoes, they make my feet feel flat, my feet are not flat...."

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Mireneye
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Posted:Spot on Thomas. Alot of flowers are polyrythmic =)

There are two types, one with speed where one poi is double the speed of the other or more, perhaps four times faster then the other.

The other type is when you make different sized circles. If you make one big circle it is natural the smaller circle will move faster in relation to the size of the big circle.

Of course, you can combine.

I hope that made sense.

---

Yeah, you've been doing polyrythmic stuff for quite a long time man :P 'round CBY 2007 was the first time I saw you playing with them =)

---

I don't think one handed butterfly isolations are possible because of how you need to move your hand around the poi in isolation and if the poi are going opposite that's impossible for one of them. If somebody can do it ( against all odds ) I'd want to see it as well =)

---

Once you get back to Sweden perhaps :P Or somewhere out in the world ( I do plan to travel and get away from sweden some in the summer ).

Cheers


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AlienJon
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Posted: Written by: Mireneye


I don't think one handed butterfly isolations are possible because of how you need to move your hand around the poi in isolation and if the poi are going opposite that's impossible for one of them. If somebody can do it ( against all odds ) I'd want to see it as well =)



Hypothetically, one could do a one-handed iso vs catey (1-beat antispin ellipse). I'm just now starting to clean these up with 2 hands ... ubbloco

-Alien Jon


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16.15.8
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Posted:The onehanded polyrythmics are fully possible, im doing them biggrin If we are talking about the same thing.

What im doing is a onehanded splittime butterfly and the poi thets to the right in my hand I isolate while the other one is doing antispin with three pedals, its doable with four pedals also but I find it harder......

Are we talking about the same thing?

//Thomas


"I dont like shoes, definitely not spinning with shoes, they make my feet feel flat, my feet are not flat...."

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AlienJon
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Posted: Written by: like my poi, my heart is on fire


The onehanded polyrythmics are fully possible, im doing them biggrin If we are talking about the same thing.

What im doing is a onehanded splittime butterfly and the poi thets to the right in my hand I isolate while the other one is doing antispin with three pedals, its doable with four pedals also but I find it harder......

Are we talking about the same thing?

//Thomas



We are talking about very similar things, just depends on the number of petals. You are doing 3-petal, so it is indeed polyrhythm. If you subtract a petal, then it collapses to a 1-beat antispin ellipse (cateye). Any way you play it, that is sweet with one hand...
One nigh with glow poi last summer at the Clearwater festival I started to get the one-handed trifoil vs extension, but never kept after it... Isolation seems harder. rolleyes

-Alien Jon


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Mireneye
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Posted:Some new wallplane same-time poi butterfly arms switching at high and low with one arm doing antispin and one arm doing long arm.

Difficult to explain. I'll just have to compile a video filled with poly rhythms someday.


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FireElement
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Posted:Nice stuff Coleman. I'm drumming for several years now and one year ago I discovered polyrhythmic and polymetric. So I didnt have much trouble to swing the poi in 3:2 and 4:3.



 Written by

:mcp

for instance, doing a one beat in one hand and a figure of eight in the other. They're both moving at the same speed, but the different pattern ensues a different number of beats. Does that count as polyrhythm?





It's polymetric. I try to explain but English is not my native language and it's pretty hard to explain this kind of stuff in my own language, but I will try smile.

polyrhythm is when for example 3 evenly-spaced notes against 2. So the rhythm resolve after 2 beats in a 2/4 time signature. You can also invert it and make 2 evenly-beats against 3. Now rhythm resolve after 3 beats in a 3/4 time signature. So that was the easy part. Polymetric is when you hear or play 2 different time signatures. For instant a 6/8 and a 3/4 time signature. So have look on the polyrhythm 2:3 in a 3/4 time signature it resolves after one measure, but place the same rhythm in a 2/4 time signature and it resolves after 3 measures. the polyrhythm crosses the boarder of the measure and become polymetric.



examples

The numbers are real beats, the ! are hits for polyrhythm. ubbloco

3:2 in 2/4 time signature

| 1 . . 2 . . |

| ! . ! . ! . |



2:3 in 3/4 time signature

| 1 . 2 . 3 . |

| ! . . ! . . |



And now 2:3 in 2/4 time signature

| 1 . 2 . | 1 . 2 . | 1 . 2 . |

| ! . . ! | . . ! . | . ! . . |



But you can make easier polymetrics. Tic with your left alternating between your leg and chest, with your right hand in the same speed as your left hand first on your leg then on your chest and then snap your fingers.

Example

2/4 time signature

l=leg c=chest and s=snap

left hand | l c | l c | l c |

right hand| l c | s l | c s|

Now you can see the pattern repeats after 3 measures. This also polymetric. so if mcp is doing one beat in one hand and a figure of eight in the other its polymetric.

This must give you enough stuff to play around.



I hope this post make sense to everyone and happy spinning to everyone .

peace

EDITED_BY: FireElement (1209604102)


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Durbs
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Posted:Yay - another drummer spinning poi biggrin

Fine stuff


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aston
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Posted:So what is new in this area?

Got curious after seeing MNS and Nathaniel jabbering away and MNS mentioned these.

I have not played with these much, but am interested in what is out there.


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"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
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Mother_Natures_Son
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Posted:I'd like to see what your polyrhythm looks like.
Originally Posted By: aston
...the first polyrhythym I learned was one hand staying low and switching from front to back and the other moving between front, back and behind my head.

I *think* it is 3:2....


So whats this, hip reels and shoulder reels in poly??


I haven't really delved hugely into polyrhythms, my mind just does not appreciate being asymmetrical while I'm twirling, it tends to interrupt my flow... Maybe if I were more comfortable with them I'd feel more comfortable.

I'd like to see some intermediate/advanced application of polyrhythms all I've really seen was colemans demonstrations of basic timings in hip reels.

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1232668532)
EDIT_REASON: increasing accuracy


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Such
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Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonMaybe if I were more comfortable with them I'd be more comfortable.

o.O maybe... smile


Human

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Mother_Natures_Son
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Posted:tongue2 Thanks doppelGanger I've edited it to write what I meant now. I typed half the sentence, went off to get a cup of tea and came back and finished it off. grin

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Durbs
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Posted:Oh - the suspense wink

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Durbs
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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:The only poly's I've been playing with recently have been LASA variations, 5-bt weave variation of 2:1 for example.
Also a variation on the tri-foil with the poi in the same direction, continued in a pirouette.

I lost interest in poly-flowers - aside from in photographs, they just look like sloppy flowers unless you're shouting out what you're doing at the time.


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Hmm, I guess I've been doing a 3:4 polyrhythm... 4 petal spin vs antispin flowers... its not smooth yet.

I've also played with a cateye and a 4 petal antispin flower at the same time... but that just looks sloppy.


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