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Rancor
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Posted:Are they the same thing?

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
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Total posts: 2418
Posted:Yep. As far as I'm aware, the mexican wave is what I'd refer to as butterfly shoulder reels.

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Rancor
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Posted:Well, I know the mexican wave, and have been trying to learn high reels, can you imagine learning something you already know and not getting it? That's probably why I have been stuck this week...

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Rancor
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Posted:I am an idiot.

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
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Posted:Tried it in same direction?

And then perhaps same direction with the arm in front doing longarm?

Then either one with a polyrhythm? (This one isn't for you yet, but in case someone else reads it, shoulder reels are fun with polyrhythms. smile


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Rancor
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Posted:Well now that I have cleared the hurdle of name mixing, I can move on from butterfly and try split time!

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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:I hate how much there is terminology over-lap in the world of poi. Simple combos are given whole new moves and confuse people, including myself sometimes as the same term is often applied to two different combos.

I have seen the Mexican wave refer to butterfly high reels, and I have also seen it labeling low same-direction split-time reels -> high same-direction split-time reels and back again.

Ultimately, learn all reels, and in fact, all moves in all four modes:

Same-direction same time.
Same-direction split time.
Butterfly same time
Butterfly split time.

Do this and your spinning will improve greatly.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
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Posted:Just to get pedantic, split time is a timing and butterfly is a direction sense.

You could do BF split time. Or same direction, same time even same directions split time... theres a good number of combinations, then you can even start to mix it up even more, if you've got hip reels then you can have one hand doing a hip reel, the other doing a shoulder reel, the next stage being that you switch which does a hip reel and which does a shoulder reel. smile

These are just things you COULD do, not things you SHOULD do. But its a good idea to think about all of the possibilities so that you can then begin to branch out from the things you learn into what that means you can now assume about the way the poi can move in relation to one another and in relation to your body.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
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Posted:Originally Posted By: NathanielEverist
Ultimately, learn all reels, and in fact, all moves in all four modes:


Just to make it clear (and to be a pain in the arse), thats not all there is, you're forgetting polyrhythms as well as the combination of hip and shoulder reels (The wiggle)

Though, the latter could be referred to as just "mode switching" the former can't, especially due to its unrequited peaks of deliciousness.


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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:Man, I gotta say, every time I read "the wiggle" I cringe, I hate that term.

But yeah, you're right, there is more than those, but those are probably the best place to start, and I didn't forget the combination of hip and shoulder reels, I've got that in my reels tutorials, it's just that to me, they're not modes, they're positions.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Well, to me its all the same because the way I define everything is in terms of its relative position.

The poi relative to one another- Timing and direction. Good to split the 'poi' into head, hand(le) and cord in this case.

The arm relative to the poi - antispin, spin, longarm.

The poi relative to the body - waistwraps, weaves, planes.

Anyway, thats the general idea of that, not a comprehensive list.. . Absolutely everything is a 'mode' to me. I see nothing as a 'basic' mode... because they're all basic modes, no matter how complex they look it can be stripped down to these relations.

I suppose what a newbie out there really needs to take out of this discussion is that you've got to find a way to make the poi make sense in any context, Nathaniel has broken it up in a way that makes sense to him and I've broken it up in a way that makes sense to me.

YOU are the one holding your poi, theres no real point in breaking it up the way someone else does for the sake of communication, you can communicate with your poi and besides that, you'll find that you're able to discuss the way you view it anyway if you're able to take it back to basics in doing so.


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Rancor
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Posted:o.O

I am going to do the below first, I have never even heard of polyrythem spinning!
Also, my naming convention is the same as Nathaniel's, simply because he has been my teacher this whole time smile The reason I got Mexican Wave stuck in my head was because I watched the DVD that came with my poi and that was what the lady called it, got me all sorts of confused, by I get it now!

Same-direction same time.
Same-direction split time.
Butterfly same time
Butterfly split time.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/linkto/-basic-polyrhythms-/734178/
br>
This used to have videos on it, but it seems they're gone... I might have to make a video of the polyrhythm discuss below, if theres any interest.

Not as hard as it looks and its much easier if you do the poi in front as a nice, slow longarm and the one behind as just two quick beats.


Its best done as a hip reel.

But the polyrhythm I'm speaking of is one that switches.

It starts as a 2:1 but will change to a 1:2 when your hands switch positions (in front and behind are the two positions)

The one in front always does 1 to the 2 behind. After you've gained a fair amount of proficiency in all the reel variations theres no reason you can't attempt this polyrhythm. grin


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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:Oh, I agree with what you're saying MNS, the way you've broken the poi down into relation to each other, to the arm (I say in relation to the hand or handle) and to the body. We just differ in that I don't consider relation to hand or body "modes". I think of it broken down like this:

Mode: Poi in relation to each other, direction, timing etc.
Spin/styles: Poi in relation to hand, spin, anti-spin, isolated, cat-eye etc.
Planes: Poi in relation to body/axis
Position: Hands in relation to the body.

Flowers are a good example for the above. You've got your mode, as you can do flowers in same time, same direction, butterfly split time... whatever.
Then you've got your spin stlye, as popularly you can do regular or anti-spin flowers, but you can also isolate or whatever.
Planes, you can do flowers in wheel plane, wall plane or ceiling plane.
Position, you can have your hands close to your body, arms fully outstretched (conventional style), btb, waistwrapped, you name it.

This is how I break it down anyway, but you're certainly right that people break down poi in individual ways as they learn, there isn't any single, agreed upon system yet, as poi is still growing, but that's how I break down movements and create my own variations. I've actually made a tutorial that needs to be uploaded about some aspects of this, names position or as I call them "body beats" (although I don't like that name, I was thinking maybe body swings or something instead, but terminologically, "beats" makes more sense), taken from juggling with "body throws".


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
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Posted:Originally Posted By: NathanielEveristOh, I agree with what you're saying MNS, the way you've broken the poi down into relation to each other, to the arm (I say in relation to the hand or handle)

The arm and the hand are different, but I'm feeling lazy, so can't be bothered explaining why. tongue2

The reason I don't like locking things into categories like that is merely that it puts barriers in your mind as to the different combination. I rather view each poi head, cord, hand and arm as separate entities, this way they can move in any way they please relative to one another, it makes plane changing much, much easier if you don't have to worry about what mode it is if one poi is on a horizontal plane and the other poi is in a wall plane or when you stall which mode you should move into.

Instead you just decide which poi goes where and thats it. tongue2

For example, if my right poi is in a horizontal plane and my left in a wall plane and I do a stall in the middle with both so the heads meet I can then move the poi in any direction I like... Having the left poi continue in the same direction after its stall looks most effective because then its as though the other one is folded into its spin. grin

From here I can fold it in in two different ways, fold it against the flow or with the flow, essentially deciding which "mode" I want to fold into.

This will make more sense in a second...

Originally Posted By: NathanielEveristthere isn't any single, agreed upon system yet,


Because of the above ramblings it makes so much more sense to me to use the system that works for me best on the go, with two poi in the air as well as arms and positions to throw into the mix, you want the best system FOR YOU, not just a system that is agreed upon by all.

Everyone thinks so amazingly differently if you try to make someone conform to one system when it messes with their head just a bit... Not to say I don't agree that the system you're using doesnt make sense and wouldnt make sense to a lot of people, I just stress the idea that people should end up coming to their own ways of thinking, especially when it gets to more advanced concepts.


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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:You'll have to explain to me why you think the hands and arms are different when I next see you, it's always easier to explain in the flesh.

I understand what you're saying about not confining your mind to "patterns", but I do think that learning patterns and set moves is the best way to get started and to learn, until you do reach the point where you stop thinking in terms of movements, transitions and combos. I think of it like, each set "move" you learn trains your mind to understand the poi in relation to your body, hand, mode etc, but once you can enough understanding of the various combinations of mode, hand, position, whatever, you will naturally stop thinking of it as such, and just let it "flow".

As for a single agreed upon system, I believe that human nature makes it impossible to have any single universally agreed upon thing. Even the concepts most fundamental to our system will have a minority that disagree, look at pedophiles for example.

I do agree with you though, about what you're saying about how everybody will have a method or a system that works for them. My method worked for me, and allowed me to learn things at what I felt was a fast pace, although due to lack of time to practice, it's slowed down. So, I try and share my means with other people, take it or leave it, I'm not trying to MAKE anybody conform to my way of thinking.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: NathanielEveristYou'll have to explain to me why you think the hands and arms are different when I next see you, it's always easier to explain in the flesh.

Think longarm, think waistwraps, think different amounts of overlap in your flowers (arms held closer in or further out). The arms move in different ways while the hand in relation to the poi is essentially the same.

Originally Posted By: NathanielEveristbut I do think that learning patterns and set moves is the best way to get started and to learn

I learned with a few set moves and from there I kinda just started to piece it all together from what I knew about the way different movements interacted with one another, hearing about different concepts obviously made it easier to find them because knowing the fundamentals helped me work toward them, but even with any "new" movement I'm seeking to learn I'll break it down til it makes sense within my system of understanding poi and immediately it takes on a whole new meaning to me as well as instant variations coming to greet me..

Originally Posted By: NathanielEveristSo, I try and share my means with other people, take it or leave it, I'm not trying to MAKE anybody conform to my way of thinking.

I never said you were, I was just trying to make it clear to anyone out there who hadn't yet devised or found the system of understanding best suited to them that there were a lot of ways of thinking about it and they could benefit a lot from absorbing a few different techniques of classification.


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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
Think longarm, think waistwraps, think different amounts of overlap in your flowers (arms held closer in or further out). The arms move in different ways while the hand in relation to the poi is essentially the same.

I understand what you mean, but I classify where the arms are as "position", and I actually used the same example with the flowers in an early post in this thread.

With the hand thing, I guess I should've been more specific, it's poi in relation to the hand, but more specifically, is also the hand in relation to space, the direction in which the hands are moving and the effect that has on the poi, the examples I gave were anti-spin, isolation etc, because it's through the movement of the point of rotation through space that creates such an effect, so I feel that it's an important component of the breakdown.

I see what you mean about your way of thinking though, and it certainly makes sense, I wish I could spin with you this Sunday, an I'm sorry I missed last Sunday, but I'm looking forward to spinning with you the Sunday after, it's always interesting because we've got different opinions on these things, and it's cool to hear of somebody else's perspective, you certainly broaden my thoughts.

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
I never said you were

I never said you said I was. Sorry, I was just defending myself from a concept that I didn't want to be associated with, being a rigid teaching system, sorry, it wasn't directed at you, it's just as soon as a category comes up that I don't want to be in, I'll automatically give reasons why I don't belong in that category.
I guess I'm a little sensitive and overly ready to defend myself, I don't know what made me that way, probably other forums or social groups that were a lot more "aggressive".
Sorry again.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:No need to apologise, I think you and I both know what we meant, though through a text based medium I was only 99% sure.

I'm glad I've managed to broaden your thoughts.

I've been playing more with point isolations as they relate to stalls and plane changes. grin


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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
I've been playing more with point isolations as they relate to stalls and plane changes. grin

Man, you love that stuff! I've been working on my stalls man, I'll have to give you a look at them when I next see you.

I've been playing around a little with the plane bending stuff. Petey showed me some of that stuff ages ago, but I forgot about it until you were showing me some moves. But until Rainbow Serpent's finished, I'm mostly polishing my less technical but really crowd pleasing "tricks" (because tricks are what please a crowd unfortunately, most plebs can't differentiate technically difficult movements).


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aston
aston

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Location: South Africa
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Posted:Nice conversation. Given me some stuff to think about too.

Just as an aside, the first polyrhythym I learned was one hand staying low and switching from front to back and the other moving between front, back and behind my head.

I *think* it is 3:2....

Oh yes, there is also one long-arm and one short in butterfly, which is 1:2 the way I do it....

*goes off to revive the polyrhythm thread*

EDITED_BY: aston (1232656786)


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"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Rancor
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Posted:Well, I have reels and transitions between forward reverse and backward 3-beat as well as the high reels. And to top it off, AIRWRAPS in a 3-beat. I am feeling a lot better now that I can really move and vary the tricks.

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aston
aston

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Location: South Africa
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Posted:Airwraps in a weave? I think that they are called hyperloops then, but who knows...

Nice going though. smile


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"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:The closest thing to air-wraps in a weave is turning airwraps, because there is a tangle, but the poi don't enter the inverted plane like they do in a hyperloop. You can do airwraps in a true weave, but they've very hard, you have to be able to do an airwrap with your arms crossed, and the poi coming untangled on the crossed-inverted plane. You can do the same with a hyperloop, but again, it's difficult because when you've got your arms crossed, the amount of room inside the arms is drastically reduced.

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Rancor
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Posted:Whatever these are called I learned them:




As well as the one in front of you on your tutorial Nathaniel.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

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Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
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Posted:I thought thats what you meant. smile

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NathanielEverist
NathanielEverist

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Posted:Those are incorrectly called hyperloops in that video. They're turning airwraps, as I thought. Hyperloops have beats on an inverted plane (between the arms), and in this video they're referred to as "tangled buzzsaws", which makes sense to me. Nice work on learning them, they're a sweet looking tangle, in many ways, I think they look cooler than hyperloops because the point of tangle is more visible.

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