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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:What is it guys? Students taking arms, walking into schools and killing (innocent) people... I don't get what's behind this... confused2

Not just since Columbine, the history of school shootings go as far back as 1966 (according to this Wiki article) and it's not just in the US - sure the majority of shootings do happen in the US but it's not just there...

Recent shooting in Finland (liberal gun laws, btw)

What message does it hold? I just can't make sense of it frown

***********************************************************************
UPDATE:

Most school shootings happen in the USA (reason for that might be the existing gun laws, regardless of other factors)

Namely 41 incidences, starting 1966, with aprox. 162 victims. Mostly the perpetrators got either shot by police or shot themselves...

The Virginia Tech shooting so far has been the on with the highest death toll (33) followed by the first school shooting ever, the "University of Texas at Austin massacre" (17), the "Columbine High School massacre" (15) and the "Red Lake High School massacre" (10).

Only 4 of these shootings did not claim any victims.

It's hard to determine the ethnic background of the perpetrators as often there are no pictures included, but there seem to be only three women and three Asians involved in the killings.

Canada faced 8 shootings with 27 victims, the highest toll at a time having been 15 (including the perpetrator) - the first shooting happened in 1975.

The other 17 shootings have been spread across the globe, with three in Finland, two in Israel, Germany and Finland (to put it in numeric order). But just either one in India, Thailand, Yemen, Philippines, Argentina and Lebanon. There have been more than 90 victims in these shootings, with the highest tolls (at one given time) in Israel (22), the UK (16), Germany (16), followed by Finland (9 and 10).

Outstanding (and therefore not mentioned above) is the "Beslan School Hostage Crisis" where a group of armed rebels took an entire school hostage. In the process of "liberation", at least 334 hostages got killed, including 186 children...

The motifs for these shootings range from sheer insanity (like the first ever/ USA), political (Russia), religious (Israel) over revenge for mobbing to the simple "I don't like Mondays" (Brenda Ann Spencer)...

The perpetrator's ages - the youngest perpetrator having been age 6 (killing a classmate with a pistol he found in his uncle's home) to over 40, having been students or just random strangers to the schools, from (mainly) individuals over teams (like Columbine) or a group of three (Israel).

My initial claim that it's predominantly a white, western, male phenomenon has been intuitively correct - if you happen to have other evidence, I'll be happy to get corrected.

As for discussing the motifs, I guess it's helpful to put aside political and such - as it's clear: the highest possible death toll with the least possible resistance - and suggest we focus on those who went in there as students killing other students.
***********************************************************************

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1222525372)
EDIT_REASON: Research


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I really don't care if people attack my opinion, I'd just rather people read it fully before doing so, to prevent me having to repeat myself...

If adults can't control their own behaviours on a sports field when encouraged to attack a game with aggression...



How can we expect youths to when the issues they're often presented with are ones of asserting personal identity?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-Mr1IxGzBd8Y/the_omen_wallofdeath/
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"I am an elite warrior who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by any means at my disposal. "

"Energetically will I meet my enemies, no one will challenge me, none will stop me from my goal. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might."

"Readily will I display the discipline and strength required to fight on to my objective and I will complete my mission. I will rise when I fallen. I will rip the heart from my enemy and leave it beating on the ground. "

Now, while he DOES say, "I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor and respect of my team." as well as " I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight"

There is more of an emphasis that this will be for the TEAM and not for mankind. The opposing team is not just a team but an enemy, and this is what they're telling high school kids.

And look... isn't this joyous, some younger kids taking on the example of their elder peers...



I'll acknowledge there are a lot of other factors, but this is something being taught in government supported institutions as well as socially accepted facets of release.

Remembering that violence is the most extreme, and least used form of bullying... The continual release and removal of footage of violent bullying on YouTube shows that violent bullying is quite prevalent, using logic we can ascertain that more prevalent are other forms of bullying in which the victim is belittled based on numerous factors, often relating to their gender roles. (Whether or not they're big and manly enough for football, whether or not they too are "champions")

While I don't support the motivations and the actions of those that carry out school shootings, when something like this stems from mental illness and bullying such as what can go on its hard not to see this as an issue that needs to be addressed.

It can easily be understood that when there is a problem supported by the establishment (for these kids, schools) that extreme action is all that would make sense... When in these kids' minds is action like this warranted? When theres so much helpless rage that there seems to be nothing else that could be done?


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Total posts: 13215
Posted:In my final-semester-of-uni state of mental health, I was thinking about this thread. Looking at my friends around me also in their final year of uni (and even some who aren't). I'm not the only one not coping and in a bad state mentally.

And it makes me wonder - how many other people in my position of not coping with the pressure and the stress of school and with easy access to guns do just wake up one morning, feeling like they're not going to see through the year and know that there's a gun in the top drawer.

I don't think it's a very far step at all.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:MNS - guess now you backed your claim wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Daniel Wann, a psychologist at Murray Statefans of a local team tend to be happier than nonfans (and happier, too, than fans of non-local teams) - less prone to depression, anger, and stress....sports fans are less prone to depression, anger and stress. "Being a fan automatically places a person in a community, giving him people to talk to, something to talk about and events at which to do it."
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1224370518)
EDIT_REASON: botched it


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:You're right, Rouge Dragon, it creates a community, within a school it creates a clique. Those outside of this group are more prone to depression, anger, stress.

Compounded with the behaviour that tends to go on in schools regarding members of cliques and those who are not members of this "community" it makes for a wonderful cocktail of depression, anger, stress and testosterone.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Home of Poi
Home, Community, Meet Others, Competitions, Library, Articles, Go Shopping, View Cart, Help, Contact Us


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Sure, home of poi is a community of its own, but not everyone is into poi... Also poi isn't usually a requirement to be a part of certain school cliques or give any higher status.

It also doesn't inherently encourage competitive behaviour that may well have an impact on social encounters off the field.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:It is no different. There are people included and there are people excluded. It just centres around a different thing to bring people together.

You say not everyone is into poi. Not everyone is into sport.
Poi might not be a requirement to be in a highschool clique, however sport is not the only highschool clique out there. There are heaps. I rather remember the drama kids at my school generally being cliquey arseholes.

And I can tell you there is definitely competition with poi and an "I'm better than you" mentality.

The difference is semantics only.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Nobody is excluded from homeofpoi.com externally... but many exclude themselves. And yet, in a school clique its often a requirement not only to play sports but to also be at least decent at it thereby putting in place not only a boundary of interest, but also level of interest and biology(physical requirements). If your drama kids were cliquey arseholes not fantastic, but its not quite the most prevalent negatively based school clique out there... I haven't heard of any other drama cliques that are terrorising schools and yet I've heard of a good number of sporting based school cliques that are.


Try this one on for size...

Originally Posted By: The Herald Sun
Hundreds of VCE students at the prestigious school have been suspended after the wild muck-up day ended with a student in hospital suffering multiple fractures to the leg...

The injured Xavier boy, 17, was in the Epworth Hospital last night. It is believed he was crushed in a rugby-style game known as "death ball".

He was reportedly the same student who was terrorised, punched and kicked by fellow students while in a wheelie bin.
The full article if you'd like. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24527398-2862,00.html
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Now... consider this boy. I'd be willing to bet that he was in some way trying to gain credit with his peers by engaging in sports while playing "death ball" and while perhaps not necessarily targeted certainly wasn't treated with respect during this game.

It stands to reason that he wasn't particularly strong (if he could be shoved into a bin and kicked, but even if he was a fine sporting specimen, that would just increase his status as 'the competition'.


To return once more to poi... I never said that there couldn't be a competitive nature within poi, I had just said that it wasn't inherently encouraged... meaning that the basic idea of poi is a personal one, if you then want to go out and compare yourself to others you can and even then theres a large number of different things to consider, but in sports you have no choice whatsoever but to square yourself up against another person and you end up with a higher score, a lower score or an even score.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Or alternatively how I saw the Xavier issue:
boys were being rough. someone got hurt. people get hurt when boys are rough. you say that even though he wasn't necessarily targeted, that he certainly wasn't respected during the game - the injury doesn't show that. Those AFL footballers you hate so much get injured all the time. and it's due to rough play, not lack of respect.

I'm aware that Xavier has a negative stigma for being a top end private school (so top end it's actually a public school), but that doesn't mean it deserves all the horrible things people say about them and it doesn't make them true is true. Especially not from the media. the media has a habit of hating the APS.

And once again, you assume that all sport is negative where it's all about winning and competition and aggression.

heaven forbid you have a social game of tennis, or go for a bike ride around the river with mates. My parents run the social rowing program at my club. the SOCIAL rowing program. Where a group of people just get together and go for a float and then have tea and biscuits afterwards. Even on the rare occasions that they compete, they do it to make the distance.

Many clubs have no competing members (called various different things in different clubs). And there is nothing to say that there is not a basic personal premise behind sporting participation. people seeking to better their ability and skill. people engaging in the sport for enjoyment (thats something personal). They are reasons people do poi as well. reasons they do music. reasons why they do a hell of a lot of stuff really.

And the fact that competetiveness in poi isn't encouraged is neither here nor there. it's there. and it only takes one person to be competitive to start affecting other people and putting them down.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:How many afl players suffer multiple fractures to the leg? Or get stuffed into a bin before the match?

I've also had an account of the Xavier incident reporting that they "just started full bashing each other"

And I don't hate them... though some of them are worthy of being despised for reasons I cannot divulge in public forums, feel free to ask me in private yourself.


"And once again" Rouge... you've taken everything I've said out of context. I never said ALL SPORT IS NEGATIVE. I said "sport can be negative" and "sport is inherently competitive"

By engaging in a "sport" rather than a "hobby" it implies that you're pitting yourself against another person. But you do raise a good point anyway, how about I target instead "sports involving physical contact that could be seen as a violent action" ?

You're right, it only takes one person, but its certainly a lot easier when you've got a team behind you.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I'm sorry but you claim you don't think that, but I am yet to see evidence otherwise.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Every person on the face of this planet is deep down, inherently the same... we're all driven by emotions, insecurities, a desire to fit in and be loved as well as the desire to stand out and be special.

The ways that we learn to go about these goals is governed by the circumstances we're in, that is... the types of models we're shown, the types of things we're rewarded for as well as the types of things that are seen to be valued in our community (whether thats a family community, school community, sporting community)

I couldn't hate someone for the way they act, given that they're no different from me. All people on this earth are brethren, we are all one.

After first examining that which is the same about people... then you can begin to try to work out that which makes us appear different, the different ways we express our fundamental similarities.


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Rouge Dragon
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Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonEvery person on the face of this planet is deep down, inherently the same... we're all driven by emotions, insecurities, a desire to fit in and be loved as well as the desire to stand out and be special.

Which is what I've been saying all along; that it's not the sport. It's the human nature.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Well, that theory alone ignores the fact that people ARE externally different. Without that realisation you can't examine how this occurs.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:How is external appearance now into this? Although that supports what I've been saying about bullying occurring because of appearance, not sporting prowess.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:The way someone exerts themselves in the world is an externalisation of intrinsic similarities. The similarities within and the differences of how we show these similar traits points to certain psychological differences in the way we filter and deal with incoming and outgoing information.

We need to use the discrepancies of the way people behave and how this is dissimilar to our own behaviour based on how they would perceive the actions.

Thats all I was saying.

I don't believe you ever did offer external appearance up as an example, but all the same I do believe that external appearance is a means of bullying, rather than a complete reason within itself. Especially after broken noses, some football players are none too pretty to look at, but they tend to retain a status

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1224634916)
EDIT_REASON: additions!


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Rouge Dragon
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Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I'm still failing to see the connection between that and what you've been saying previously, but ok.

Originally Posted By: me
My friend was teased at school because she had a cleft palate.


Just an example of external appearance.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Apologies, when reaching 8 pages its hard to keep track of the things you've mentioned in passing.

Anyway... situation in question. School shootings I believe the topic to be... Remember Alan and Greg from page 6?

Alan Greg and I are all inherently different.

Alan reacts differently for a number of reasons... the music he listens to has normalised violence, this changes that filter... he doesn't get much love and affection from his parentals because they're too busy bickering or seeing him as an unwanted child, meaning he doesnt feel emotionally supported and stable, so he lacks confidence... And Alan is finally picked on by Greg, which offers a final trigger of stress and excommunication... this is what leads to him eventually leading to go for the gun.

Greg, however has been encouraged by his father to be more and more and more and more, gets an obsessive amount of contact from him... this means that his filter on what is normal in the competitive regard is changed. Also, the views of his peers and his models (the football player on drug charges) are going to alter the way he filters and reacts to information both internal and external..

That sufficient?


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I thought the conclusion to that is that it was a case of bad parenting.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:If you'd really like to go wild and put it all down to things out of the control of society you can... but ignoring influences within the school communities sphere of influence isnt really constructive.

Where does "the buck" stop?


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Rouge Dragon
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Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I'm "going wild"?

I'm not the one writing scenarios that are clearly examples of bad parenting and then taking it to the extreme and blaming it on something which has countless evidence to show all the GOOD it does.

Being picked last in PE is only a problem if the individual chooses to make it one. The difference is that I chose to not make it a problem.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

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Posted:I've cited enough material, I've never condemned sport as a whole, but instead I've continuously stated that it needs to be structured properly which a good number of schools and community groups do not, especially football which is shrouded in an aire of alcoholism.

Its not only about "being picked last"

You're clearly ignoring a good number of examples that don't fit into your neat little world view... the Xavier boy for example... can you explain to me how a leg gets multiple fractures because the owner of the leg was picked last? Or did he end up in a bin because he was picked last? Or did these things happen because he chose to make it into a problem?


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:You haven't cited material. Only scenarios and youtube videos.

And I'm sorry that my world view from the perspective of someone who plays sport but got picked last in sports teams and wasn't "cool" totally crushes your world view.

You, like the media, are taking the Xavier issue WAY out of perspective. People put these schools on pedestools, then complain when they don't meet the expectations that you hold for them.

You are the one claiming that it's the kids who aren't sporty, who are picked last for sports teams are the ones who are picked on. Therefore it's your theory, not mine, that he was in a bin cos he wasn't in the firsts football team. So how about you tell me?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Once again, I am delighted to see how much HoP really cares.

Throughout my horrendous final semester of university, my lack of mental stability was completely brushed over, but my position as sportswoman and coach (at Xavier, for the record) is what people really care about.

Want 'othering'?

It's right here.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:First of all, I think you may have gotten the wrong idea here... I'm not attacking you, I'm merely poking holes in your arguments since you're poking at holes in mine... its a discussion, though I had sensed that it was getting to a point that it was no longer very constructive and I was soon to put an end to it.

I'm sorry to hear about your horrendous final semester at university. I've not had a great one either... I'm just about to exit a relationship, as well, so I'm not feeling especially mentally stable either.

But I don't know you very well and so that area of your life is not something I feel I should be getting involved in. This discussion however is part of a public area. If you'd like to talk to me about anything privately Facebook chat, however unreliable is open for you to contact me with and I'd be very happy to listen and talk to you about it...

But back onto the topic...

You haven't crushed my world view... its fluid, while it seems to have rigid boundaries here, I'm discussing one particular controllable facet of the system which can result in things such as school shootings.

And most of my basis for the Xavier thing was taken from people I know who know of the people there(as a group, mind you), but I can't really quote these people, obviously. I don't think its much to expect that students don't do damage to cars and don't cause one another multiple fractures while playing. I know I certainly don't put them on a pedestal, I'd have given any school with a similar story as a reference point from which to make an argument.

I never brought up the idea of "being picked last" that was your idea, I've refuted it each time... I had only brought it up to refute it.

And as stated previously... I think this has ventured into the area that is no longer constructive and so I don't think it should continue. Not like this, anyway.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

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Posted:hi rougie, looking through this thread, it looks like you have gotten a good handle and perspective on all this
I was teased, mercilessly. still actually, it doesn't end at school
So in a way i understand where these shooters come from, on the otherhand when I snapped it was more a flood of tears, not a rage thing
different people different reactions based on a lot of different factors, bad parenting imo seems to be a large issue


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:See - bottom line is that the topic tackles a 0.00001% [/random figure] of general school violence. School shootings (fortunately) are VERY remote - school (and teen) violence unfortunately is not.

Also it depends on your individual composition... what is a medicine for one, can be poison for another.

School sports can lead to immense pressure on those who can't keep up (physically and mentally) with it. As it is an environment packed with hormonic and adrenalin release, it can lead to stressful situations, which subsequently can lead to violence and violent responses.

To deny this is as counterproductive as to claim that this is the only reason for school violence/ shootings.

Both of you (MNS and Rouge) come from different ends of the spectrum - which is then giving the reader a more balanced account... thanks for participating in the discussion. hug

Sports can act as a release as well as a buildup for pressure and violence... no?

Hello Faith, long time no read...

"different people etc" that's exactly what I believe also...

And what surfaced throughout the thread is: "bad parenting".... makes me think what that actually means (especially in a time of economic pressure and a detached society...) I don't have a child to educate at this point, just act as an observer, so I can't (and won't) really cast a judgement on other people's parenting... I can only say how it resonates within me...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:My component of this discussion, I'd like to add again is that sports can indeed be a release for aggression...

But by the same token, the point of this was to attempt to highlight some of the contributing factors to school shootings... So somethings got to be picked out. I didnt say sport was the ONLY factor, I just stated that it was A controllable factor. If you'd like to pin it all down to bad parenting, thats fine, I suppose, but its really just abandoning all hope because well, its out of our hands.

So I thought of something in school, something that contributes to bullying quite easily... something I feel should be handled better in some cases... and its these more extreme cases where this has got to occur.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
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Posted:Well, it's been a long time since I was in high school, but IIRC involvement in sports was something you could opt out of if you weren't athletically inclined. We had mandatory physical education classes, up until we were about 16, but they weren't really competitive.

I'm wondering whether there isn't a link between ADD and school shootings.


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