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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:What is it guys? Students taking arms, walking into schools and killing (innocent) people... I don't get what's behind this... confused2

Not just since Columbine, the history of school shootings go as far back as 1966 (according to this Wiki article) and it's not just in the US - sure the majority of shootings do happen in the US but it's not just there...

Recent shooting in Finland (liberal gun laws, btw)

What message does it hold? I just can't make sense of it frown

***********************************************************************
UPDATE:

Most school shootings happen in the USA (reason for that might be the existing gun laws, regardless of other factors)

Namely 41 incidences, starting 1966, with aprox. 162 victims. Mostly the perpetrators got either shot by police or shot themselves...

The Virginia Tech shooting so far has been the on with the highest death toll (33) followed by the first school shooting ever, the "University of Texas at Austin massacre" (17), the "Columbine High School massacre" (15) and the "Red Lake High School massacre" (10).

Only 4 of these shootings did not claim any victims.

It's hard to determine the ethnic background of the perpetrators as often there are no pictures included, but there seem to be only three women and three Asians involved in the killings.

Canada faced 8 shootings with 27 victims, the highest toll at a time having been 15 (including the perpetrator) - the first shooting happened in 1975.

The other 17 shootings have been spread across the globe, with three in Finland, two in Israel, Germany and Finland (to put it in numeric order). But just either one in India, Thailand, Yemen, Philippines, Argentina and Lebanon. There have been more than 90 victims in these shootings, with the highest tolls (at one given time) in Israel (22), the UK (16), Germany (16), followed by Finland (9 and 10).

Outstanding (and therefore not mentioned above) is the "Beslan School Hostage Crisis" where a group of armed rebels took an entire school hostage. In the process of "liberation", at least 334 hostages got killed, including 186 children...

The motifs for these shootings range from sheer insanity (like the first ever/ USA), political (Russia), religious (Israel) over revenge for mobbing to the simple "I don't like Mondays" (Brenda Ann Spencer)...

The perpetrator's ages - the youngest perpetrator having been age 6 (killing a classmate with a pistol he found in his uncle's home) to over 40, having been students or just random strangers to the schools, from (mainly) individuals over teams (like Columbine) or a group of three (Israel).

My initial claim that it's predominantly a white, western, male phenomenon has been intuitively correct - if you happen to have other evidence, I'll be happy to get corrected.

As for discussing the motifs, I guess it's helpful to put aside political and such - as it's clear: the highest possible death toll with the least possible resistance - and suggest we focus on those who went in there as students killing other students.
***********************************************************************

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1222525372)
EDIT_REASON: Research


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'd blame pop culture... it has this fantastic way of excluding people. Theres so much aggression highlighted in sports and everything else... expressing emotion, especially as a male is seen as gay, so theres no outlet for any emotion without ridicule but aggression.

I dunno though, thats a half-baked idea. But what does it say about the future? Hopefully we can find a way of letting people feel like they have a voice, rather than having weaponry, I'd say that the gun laws in the US need to be changed, but how long that will take who knows?

Perhaps manufacturing poi and handing them out in schools could help. tongue2 (Nothing against staff, but poi are cheaper to make)

There needs to be some sense of community and that these kids belong to this community... as well as it being a community they can have input to, a community they'd want to belong to.

I'd say its not only the American values etc that contribute to this phenomena, it would surely be the number of large schools...

(Correct me if I'm wrong, this IS half baked, built on MANY MANY assumptions, so if my facts aren't sound, feel free to pull me up on it.)


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I can't comment on other countries, but pressure on students. They put the pressure on younger and younger and I can see someone flipping out.

Also, with global pop culture coming into play there's a much more defined "cool" and therefore more obvious when you're not a member which turns into isolation.

Young people aren't taken seriously in many cases, which would also lead to them feeling isolated and frustrated with the world.

I think young people need more sport. More team sport. The coming together with other people to work as a unit to achieve a goal - gives a sense of belonging while keeping the body healthy which helps with a healthy mind.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Depends on the emphasis of the sport, Rouge... It would be nice if sport could solve such divisions, but those who are not sporty tend to be isolated since its all orientated on success, losing can bring its own frustration and feelings of low self worth..

That and the culture around sporting tends to be one of drugs and aggravation (AFL) I'd say goal orientated behaviour is the way to go, scouting offers a good route... making camps, hiking, helping one another, its all goal orientated behaviour and it doesnt undermine the goals of anyone else (the opposing team)


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Not all team sport is like AFL, and while I'm hyped up about our soon-to-be back-to-back premiership, there's so much I don't like about AFL culture (no point in me getting started on that!). It's about *how* it's taught and about how winning is everything. However, with the right environment (parents, club, coach = me tongue2 ) and the right sport it doesn't have to be a miniature AFL.

Oh, and this is coming from someone who was deemed to be "not sporty" at school and was picked last for teams.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Yeah, I see what you mean, and I'd really love for that to be a viable option, but the closest I'd see to actualisation would be this sporting initiative functioning, but there still being the usual sporting culture, creating a hierarchy... if you're in this other sporting initiative then you're clearly not good enough for this other one and you'd still have "jocks" and "dorks" to make the distinction it creates overt.

But never mind my hippy nonsense. peace


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Is it 'cool' to flip out?

IMO it's a lot more 'cool' to simply shrug it off...

"Pressure on students" might be one (important) aspect - what about "(social) recognition" and dealing with disappointment?


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I would have thought they weren't so different... theres academic pressure, theres social pressure, its just pummeling from two different directions.

I don't think its being suggested that its cool to flip out, I would've said that it was more along the lines that in a state where coolness is highly prized, being uncool can put these social pressures that you're referring to and when one of the more accepted things is aggression (as a placeholder for competition) then you get an aggressive response.

To break that down again, I guess I'm saying aggression is taught as an outlet through sports its deemed to be a positive thing, through video games its practiced... and since theres opposition to video game violence this just creates another sense of otherness rather than actually instilling the understanding the aggression in a video game is very different from aggression in real life.

Will I ever write something that just plain makes sense?


Oh my, I'm every second comment in this thread! *Wanders off into oblivion*


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Oh yay another gun thread

You guys really think the *gun* caused this? There are were a LOT of warning signs with this kid. The system failed him, and all the victims long before he ever decided to kill. I don't believe that school killers ever believe that violence is the 'right' way, nor are they looking for acceptance. This one in particular. If he was looking for acceptance, or thought that such an act was "cool" why would he kill himself in the end?

Sports give a positive outlet for aggression that is pure human nature. With proper nurturing and teaching sports don't make anyone more violent.

Hooray for more fear mongering


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Hmmm - can't quite see this as yet "another gun thread"...

Originally Posted By: CNNFinland enjoys a strong tradition of hunting and has a high proportion of gun ownership, with 2 million firearms owned in a nation of 5 million people.

This thread could be, but definitely ain't about (the availability of) guns. I'd like to focus on motifs and initial impulse for a student to start looking for a gun (to start a school shooting).

The positive/ negative impact of gun laws have been discussed in the gun thread... thoroughly, back and forth and nine times over rolleyes wink


Sports does give a positive outlet for aggression and it seems to work for quite a number... still there are a few who feel that killing is the only way to express themselves and their stored anger.

It's with all these guys who go on a spree and then kill themselves... what the heck were they thinking? We'll never know for sure. To me they are similar to suicide bombers (whereas we got a much better idea about their motifs).

Hmmm, video games, huh? It would be easy to say: I played GTA and still don't pull people out of their cars, beat them up - just because I wrecked my own... Certain things have got certain effects on certain people. There is no universal formula (broken home + drug abuse + violent video games + mobbing at school + gun license = killing spree)... Guess that would be too easy.

MSN: have to read over your last post again. Can't make too much sense of it at this point... You're saying that aggression is (taught to be) okay at sports, that (playing) violent video games is deemed "not okay" and by playing such video games one becomes a little alienated? That in (violent/aggressive) sports there usually is a strong hierarchy and that this would create another feeling of standing aside or create anger and frustration?

I might have completely misunderstood what you're trying to tell us - if so, please feel free to correct me smile


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I figure the ultimate goal of these events is the suicide itself with the taking of innocent lives being a statement of just how dissatisfied the perpetrator is with their own life.

Guns ultimately make the suicide easier, after all, you could create a lot of carnage with a box full of Molotov cocktails but IMO the idea of committing suicide by dousing oneself in gasoline is rather unpalatable when compared to a nice, simple, effective bullet to the head.

Then there's the martyr component to take into consideration too. Suicide by police, that way it's not "really" a suicide.

So what's the cause ?? I figure we'd have to go on a case by case basis to reach some sort of consensus but my guess mental illness plays a more prominent role than social pressure with social pressure being batted about as more of an "excuse" than anything.

Blaming social pressure is basically an "it's not my fault" way of avoiding any personal responsibility for the act, much like Ted Bundy blamed pornography and violence in the media for his killing spree the day before they flipped the switch.

Nature vs Nurture ??


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutI figure the ultimate goal of these events is the suicide itself with the taking of innocent lives being a statement of just how dissatisfied the perpetrator is with their own life.

Is it like: I wished someone would liberate me from my misery, but nobody seems to be willing to - maybe you feel the same??? Or: You failed to make my life worthwile/ you contributed to my misery... Whereas 'usually' none of those who got shot have any business with these loosers.

What I find highly disturbing is that there are some out there who hail (for example) the Columbine whackos... [sic] pls note I'm using explicit terms for the perpetrators, to make absolutely clear that I personally can't find anything even remotely 'cool' about taking up a gun, walking into a school and killing innocent and unarmed children/ teenagers.

I have zero compassion for suicide bombers killing innocent people and would rank them '0' on a scale from 1 to 10 - but school shooters? Maybe a -10


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yea,,,I tapped my fingers for a few minutes trying to think of an alternative for "perpetrators" but couldn't come up with anything that would be PG.

I figure it's more like...

"my life is so miserable that I'm going to demonstrate just how miserable by taking a bunch of you with me so I'll actually deserve the opinions you obviously have of me"

Otherwise, why not specifically target the tormentors ?

We had a guy here in Canada in 1989 who did just that, but it's the only one that I'm aware of. All the other mass shootings seem to target whoever happens to be in the sights when the shooter's ready to pull the trigger.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:That gun thread comment was merely a reaction to MNS's immediate conclusion that gun laws need to change. It wasn't entirely directed at you FT :cheer:

There are a few that believe that killing is the only answer. But there are almost always warning signs before it ever comes to that. Our systems are overburdened and people slip through the cracks. But that is only part of the problem. The root of violence (in my opinion at least) is in the home. How problems are dealt with by your elders while you were young has an immense impact on how you deal with problems as an adult.

Some sheep are driven to be wolves by a perceived lack of choice


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:FireTom: The basic concept I was getting at is that through sport we're told that its ok to be aggressive... there are rewards for being a more aggressive player, and yet if you don't succeed at these sports you tend to be alienated by the ones who do succeed.

From this the alienated ones tend to seek alternative forms of outlets... and since we're taught aggressive outlets are acceptable and effective, then aggressive ones tend to be chosen. Video games tends to be often chosen. Now.. I'm not saying video games are the source of these issues, but given the opposition out there to violent video games (Jack Thompson and a general media opposition, the comparisons of some killings to the game Manhunt.) there tends to be another source of alienation.

"Their form of aggression is justified, but mine is detrimental"

Because of this rejection there doesn't tend to be any modelling of how games should expel aggression rather than allowing it to build up. (Something that tends to be taught, sometimes successfully, sometimes unsuccessfully within sporting cultures)

Stout: Social pressure tends to be a leading cause of mental illness in the first place, and even if mental illness was present beforehand it pushes the mental illness into a very destructive place, so I won't disagree with you there but some things still need to be kept in mind.

Lurch: On gun laws, I referred moreso to an alteration of who can get guns and the sorts of penalties for people breaching the ways they keep their guns... access to minors is a big no-no.

I'd still doubt the practicality behind owning handguns and owning semi-automatic weapons. And since these toys are injuring people why should we really allow them to stay within a populace?

If a child is misbehaving with a toy, you take it off them. But I don't think this is the nature of the thread so I'll leave it at "a change in gun laws" referring to an alteration of the ways in which guns are handed out, the ways in which they're stored and the review processes for both of these.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:^^^^^ help Please - don't start going at the guns, MSN wink especially not at the (semi)automantics - it's not leading anywhere I (personally) would like to go (again).

It's a very interesting and valid point you raise, saying that on one side we're promoting aggression and on the other we sanction it... Not so easy for some individuals to deal with this...

Also it seems to be a predominantly male thing... haven't heard of any female school shooter so far... correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe another problem is that of males, trying to find an appropriate position in todays society... like: when is a man a man?

Originally Posted By: Stoutwhy not specifically target the tormentors ?

Maybe because there is none to target specifically... ? Maybe because these sickos live in a delusional world where everybody is talking behind their backs?

I mean obviously there is a lot of speculation in this topic... lack of insight and interviews with the perpetrators.

I'd also guess that alienation is one dominant aspect in the game... Why else would one get a gun, randomly kill and then turn the weapon against himself... Maybe there should be a much closer eye on alienated students...? but then again:

Originally Posted By: msnbc"He was just a regular and calm guy. Nothing outstanding. He had lots of friends. Nothing that would have given an idea that something like this would happen," student Susanna Keranen told an AP television crew outside the school.

as opposing to

Originally Posted By: msnbcPekka-Eric Auvinen [last years school shooter in Finland], described by police as a bullied 18-year-old outcast, opened fire at his high school in southern Finland on Nov. 7, killing six students, a school nurse and the principal before ending his own life.

So it seems as if in this case no alienation took place... which makes the motif even more inaccessible for me.

Originally Posted By: LurchThe root of violence (in my opinion at least) is in the home. How problems are dealt with by your elders while you were young has an immense impact on how you deal with problems as an adult.

I'm very likely to agree with you, Lurch. Whereas I'm uncertain whether there is a straight formula: violent home --> violent children, peaceful home --> peaceful children. I'm afraid it's not that easy.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1222314130)


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meshunderlay
meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2008
Total posts: 612
Posted:In my opinion, it has little to do with culture.

All through out history there have been people who were unwell in the head and tried work it out by being sadistic in one way or another.

Remember, there used to be a time when people thought it was entertaining to watch other people die in "games".

Food for thought. On the other hand though, I do think that some drugs are the cause of these problems. Younger and younger children are being prescribed pills for problems that are.... sometimes a little "iffy". I mean ADD? Attention Deficit Disorder. What child DOESN'T ignore their parents or slack off once in a while from doing homework?

I think it was Einstein who said, "A neat desk is the sign of a deranged mind."

*shrug*


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yupp - I've just been thinking in that direction when walking the streets of Bangkok...

All these shooting occurred in the West, all perpetrators have been male and most of them have been white (if not even 99% of them).

It seems to be a male, white, western problem...


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:You guys sure make a lot of random conclusions about school violence.

Sports *do* encourage aggression, but they encourage discipline and controlled aggression, which is why there are penalties when people step out of line.. It's gladitory combat, there are rules, and penalties for breaking the rules. That in itself is certainly a very valuable lesson to teach our youth is it not?

Quote:
All these shooting occurred in the West, all perpetrators have been male and most of them have been white (if not even 99% of them).

It seems to be a male, white, western problem...

WHAT? can you cite any sort of source for that? wink


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:no I can't, Lurch - I'm an ungrudging victim to your investigative talents - shoot and prove me wrong wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: LurchSports *do* encourage aggression, but they encourage discipline and controlled aggression, which is why there are penalties when people step out of line.. It's gladitory combat, there are rules, and penalties for breaking the rules. That in itself is certainly a very valuable lesson to teach our youth is it not?


On that Lurch, what I've already said is very similar to what you have just stated except for one very small detail.

Originally Posted By: Lurch(modified)Sports *do* encourage aggression, but they can (if controlled properly) encourage discipline and controlled aggression, which is why there are penalties when people step out of line.. It's gladitory combat, there are rules, and penalties for breaking the rules. That in itself is certainly a very valuable lesson to teach our youth is it not?


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Pressure to succeed creates frustration.
Pressure to be accepted creates anger and resentment.
Pressure to be someone when we aren't even sure who *we* are yet.
Pressure to act/behave a very specific way, which includes emotional control.
Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Teens are under a tremendous amount of it.

Now let's add to it the insane structure of modern society that we are an instantaneous society. Our entertainment is in very fast flashing scenes. Commercials are in spots run by seconds. We want our food fast and our money now. We have created and instant gratification society based on the now, instead of one built on consequences.
Kids not only have an invincibility complex all to often, they also don't think of what will happen tomorrow.

Slap on top of that the fact that it is so commonly known in most places that if a person is under 18 they get different legal treatment, including in the US a closed record of any illegal behaviour.

Set all of this up with a serious lack of healthy role models. The amount of parents who either don't pay attention to their kids, allowing internet, cable/dish to raise them, or who simply have to work so much they don't have the time leaves the kid to be left to his/her own devices, and without fear or respect of parental control. Kids are in general let down by their parents, and look to unattainable icons as their role models.

And they get fed up.
And they snap.

That is where current culture plays a part, sure. But the urge, and in fact such actions, have always been there to other degrees. The changes in global media and use of guns simply has made it more visible. People loved watching tortures, and in some countries still do. People would sword fight to the death, would beat the crap out of one another, etc. There weren't age limits on that, and there wasn't global media to make it known.
Hell, recently someone went into an Amish school here and stabbed the kids. No guns, just anger and a blade.
The difference now is that the kids have more (vague) pressure and more time on their hands.

But here's what I find is interesting.
It used to be that the teens would snap, and kill themselves. A study was done profiling teen suicides of the past vs the shooters of now and they have strikingly similar profiles. This actually leads to a belief of self-worth more than they used to have. Where it used to be "I'm not worthy, so I am going to die." it's turned into "They make me feel bad, so they are going to die."

Another interesting statistic is that it is mostly males, for both suicides and the killings. Evidentally the thought process of male and female is very different. Girls tend to think of who will be hurt by their actions and are more reluctant, so they crack in other ways.
Boys tend to think of who their actions will be saving, so they follow through more often.

This is about recognising issues in our youth, in these kids, and dealing with them. Not ignoring them and calling it a "phase" and not medicating them. That, most definately, is a sign of our cultural times. This is about finding a healthy outlet, such as sports or video games or whatever to release that frustration.

We can't ask that children, who do not have the maturity to handle it, to handle all these pressures but then keep it to themselves.
By doing so we are creating these time bombs.


Pele
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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomIs it 'cool' to flip out?


Dude! Ninjas=cool

Its really late... I'll pop back here tomorrow with a serious comment.

Ciao!


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:So, there we got it:

According to the Wikipedia article - which might not be correct but I am too busy to do more research at this point:

Most school shootings happen in the USA (reason for that might be the existing gun laws, regardless of other factors)

Namely 41 incidences, starting 1966, with aprox. 162 victims. Mostly the perpetrators got either shot by police or shot themselves...

The Virginia Tech shooting so far has been the on with the highest death toll (33) followed by the first school shooting ever, the "University of Texas at Austin massacre" (17), the "Columbine High School massacre" (15) and the "Red Lake High School massacre" (10).

Only 4 of these shootings did not claim any victims.

It's hard to determine the ethnic background of the perpetrators as often there are no pictures included, but there seem to be only three women and three Asians involved in the killings.

Canada faced 8 shootings with 27 victims, the highest toll at a time having been 15 (including the perpetrator) - the first shooting happened in 1975.

The other 17 shootings have been spread across the globe, with three in Finland, two in Israel, Germany and Finland (to put it in numeric order). But just either one in India, Thailand, Yemen, Philippines, Argentina and Lebanon. There have been more than 90 victims in these shootings, with the highest tolls (at one given time) in Israel (22), the UK (16), Germany (16), followed by Finland (9 and 10).

Outstanding (and therefore not mentioned above) is the "Beslan School Hostage Crisis" where a group of armed rebels took an entire school hostage. In the process of "liberation", at least 334 hostages got killed, including 186 children...

The motifs for these shootings range from sheer insanity (like the first ever/ USA), political (Russia), religious (Israel) over revenge for mobbing to the simple "I don't like Mondays" (Brenda Ann Spencer)...

The perpetrator's ages - the youngest perpetrator having been age 6 (killing a classmate with a pistol he found in his uncle's home) to over 40, having been students or just random strangers to the schools, from (mainly) individuals over teams (like Columbine) or a group of three (Israel).

My initial claim that it's predominantly a white, western, male phenomenon has been intuitively correct - if you happen to have other evidence, I'll be happy to get corrected.

As for discussing the motifs, I guess it's helpful to put aside political and such - as it's clear: the highest possible death toll with the least possible resistance - and suggest we focus on those who went in there as students killing other students.

I hope it's okay with you that I update the IP with these informations...


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Tom...I take it you found this link

I was looking for something similar for workplace shootings but was unable to find anything.

Yep...a western phenomenon


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pele: welcome long time no coincidental read of yours hug

Originally Posted By: PelePressure to act/behave a very specific way, which includes emotional control.

Can't quite subscribe to that - look at the history of events. Thailand, and S/E Asia in general has the highest pressure when it comes to emotional control - and I boldly claim that we, in the West have the least. Still most shootings happen in the West.

Sure - one of the main reasons for shootings is the availability of guns, so it might not be possible to keep the 'gun control' issue out of this thread.

You're a mom and I might be wrong, but my guess is that the pressure you're talking about needs another additive (besides guns) to yield (deadly) violence...

Originally Posted By: PeleWe want our food fast and our money now. We have created and instant gratification society based on the now, instead of one built on consequences.

I subscribe to that, whereas I'm not sure about the lack of consequences in our society... maybe we fail to be consistent enough?

I'm almost certain that it will spark controversy, so please before you all start having going at me, think about it:

Maybe in our western approach of "a consequent non-violent education" - where we try to argue to the point of complete frustration on the parental side - maybe we're not able to set limits (strong enough), or to teach the meaning of (inflicted) pain?

help Again: please read, think first and then post.

I'm NOT advocating bastinado/ fustigation/ corporal punishment, a scenario a la Pink Floyd "The Wall" where the teacher or parent is threatening the children with the cane at all times. umm

I'm simply raising the question: is our western "laissez faire", anti-authoritarian (to the extent of irreverence) style of education (compared to other "systems") doing good to our children? Is this boundlessness, paired with violence on the media as a valid way to solve problems (TV, movies, video games), waging wars due to dubious motifs (Afghanistan/ Iraq) - and the synchronized availability of deadly arms - another possible reason for this phenomenon?

As to sports as a facilitator to express aggression being limited by rules and referees: I am not that certain that aggressive behavior in teams sports really gets sanctioned as completely "off".

I mean we're facing a time where some parents are scared of their own offspring, because they swear, call them names and even beat them... That's a bit "upside down" IMO...

Originally Posted By: PeleWe have built an instant gratification society

And that is very childish... is it not only by the time we mature, that we recognize anger and aggression to fade, if we don't constantly nurture it... ?

Originally Posted By: Pelehealthy role models

Like? wink

Originally Posted By: PelePeople loved watching tortures, and in some countries still do. People would sword fight to the death, would beat the crap out of one another, etc. There weren't age limits on that, and there wasn't global media to make it known.

Errm - ever played GTA, War of Warcraft and the like? IMHO we haven't really moved on from that point... and just recently I read a study in Germany that more and more minors use PrOn to learn about sexuality - even watch it with their parents... subsequent vulgarization of behavior included.

Originally Posted By: PeleWhere it used to be "I'm not worthy, so I am going to die." it's turned into "They make me feel bad, so they are going to die."

Hmm - the perpetrators still mostly shoot themselves...

Originally Posted By: Stout"my life is so miserable that I'm going to demonstrate just how miserable by taking a bunch of you with me so I'll actually deserve the opinions you obviously have of me"

Originally Posted By: meshunderlayOn the other hand though, I do think that some drugs are the cause of these problems. Younger and younger children are being prescribed pills for problems that are sometimes a little "iffy"

Yupp, not just ADS, but concentration or attention disorder or hyperactivity...

Originally Posted By: PeleThis is about recognizing issues in our youth, in these kids, and dealing with them. Not ignoring them and calling it a "phase" and not medicating them.

I think this is very true... but as you eloquently put it: most parents simply don't have the time to care for their children anymore, or to pose as role models themselves.

Which child today exactly knows what their parents are doing for a living? Most parents degrade into a food, shelter and money vendor. "Gimme french fries, some bucks and then close the door from outside, you ol' fart (aka. pop)"...

(disclaimer: hey guys BTDT myself - and only because I turned 20/20 now I'm not going to change sides, but there is something that I find disturbing about youth violence - mainly because violent youths often don't turn into gentle parents)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I havent the time to read properly and make a proper post... but I would like to leave

"YOU! YES YOU!!! STAND STILL LADDY!"


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Sorry for the loooooong posts... shalt learn to put it all in one sentence wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomSorry for the loooooong posts... shalt learn to put it all in one sentence wink

You're like me Tom, no you won't. wink hug


I walked away, thought about all that you posed and actually spoke with friends from asian cultures, as well as my son and his friends.
Keep in mind that I can only offer the United States perspective as this is where I was born and raised.

I have also stayed out of the gun laws thread because, frankly, it annoys me to no end. Even the term "US Gun Laws" is a complete and utter misnomer and I feel that to understand what happens here, you need to live here, otherwise you are not getting the entire picture at all.
That also applies to these shootings.

I would never assume to understand or impose the moralities and ethics I grew up with to other countries because I simply do not know their culture. This thread really helped me cement that within myself.

Okay....
Addressing the violence in pop culture through sports and video games and such.
Oh, do I have insight into this.
My son is 13, and luckily, he is quite popular. He is a LaCrosse player of 6 years and an (american) Football player of two, both of which are violent sports.
I have his friends at my house all the time, sometimes up to 8 of them. They are not violent. They are not "off". They are awesome kids...every single one of them. Now, that is not saying they are perfect. They wrestle and sometimes they disagree but they don't fight.

They all spend hours playing video games together. They play Gears of War and Halo, along with Guitar Hero and Rock Band. They know it isn't real. It is a very social thing for them to do, esp when they team up and play online.

They also all own airsoft guns and the safety equipment that goes with them. (For those of you who don't know, airsoft guns are air propelled plastic bb's that don't do damage like paintballs do.) They "gear up" and have shoot ups in the back yard.

They laugh the entire time.
None of them want real guns.
None of them are at all pent up or display any signs of aggression or any of the typical "he's going to shoot" symptoms.
They are all well adjusted, normal teens.

They are working their aggressions out through other means. They are not beating up anything, torturing animals or exhibiting signs of aggression.

They are socially active.
They are physically active.
They are learning to work with others and to be part of a team.
They are learning respect (in sports).
They are not doing drugs.
They are not drinking.
They are supervised (key word there) and happy.

I fail to believe that all of these boys are the exception rather than a standard and I do not believe for a single instant that any of these boys will snap, because they don't need to.

I have seen more problems stem from Myspace actually. My son isn't allowed to have one and I check his friends pages often. Several of them come from split homes with parents who are not technology savvy. They are saying and seeing things that are, well, were once, beyond their years. Yet, as grown up as they think they are they still put up their names, locations and ages on that public forum, not understanding what an online predator is. To me, that is *far* more dangerous than playing a video game or a sport.


My friend Michie, from Japan, said that while they are told to control their emotions in certain situation. There is not a double standard for men and women, and that they do have many, many outlets as well. They are told to put their emotions into social occassions. Many go down the cosplay route, including professional adults. Karaoke (sp?), movies, sports, social, etc. Keeping it a unilateral cultural thing within boundaries I think helps keep everyone level.

Here we have a double standard between men and women that is painfully apparent. It is purely machismo and if a boy veers from that then the social consequences can be quite drastic. It is far less cultural and more of a posturing thing, especially between father and son. Our outlets aren't as extreme and the boys get pent up. I was speaking with PWB about this and his statement is that he has been told his entire life (by a very macho father) that it is *never* okay to cry. As such he told me that he can not even imagine a time when he would feel comfortable enough to want to cry.
That degree of stoicism is *not* healthy, but it is *very much* the norm among men here.

You asked "Who" for heroes?
I am still trying to think why.
When I was growing up my grandfather and my mother were my heroes. They still are.
Heroes to children need not be millionaires or as big and famous as Jesus, they just need to effect our lives in a personal and positive way.
I think that children being encouraged to look up to underaged drinkers who show parts of their bodies for shock appeal, who are only known for doing something well instead of what they stand for is horrifying to me as a parent.
You might get a kick out of this. Then again, maybe not.
I just asked my son who his hero is, who he looks up to. His answer? "Me." I asked why. "Because I don't want to be like anyone else. I like just being me." I loved that.

It's sad to say but I do believe so much of that all goes into these shooters. Lack of outlets, lack of control, lack of positive role models, lack of so much with insane pressure added on.

I can't remember the other points I was going to address, but that is probably for the best wink
Sorry to be so long winded.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: PeleThey are working their aggressions out through other means. They are not beating up anything, torturing animals or exhibiting signs of aggression.

They are socially active.
They are physically active.
They are learning to work with others and to be part of a team.
They are learning respect (in sports).
They are not doing drugs.
They are not drinking.
They are supervised (key word there) and happy.


I never said it was a standard. Just a fairly common side effect, one that doesn't tend to emerge its ugly head until around 16-18.

I have also stated several times that proper structure within sporting is the key to promoting healthy values within the sport. Problem is, a common issue (in Australia) is that the schools don't have the time to provide this and parents often don't feel its their responsibility.

I don't feel its so wrong to draw connections between cultures... people all over the world are inherently the same and due to the similarities between cultures of western civilisation drawing reasonably accurate inferences is not hard. Most of what I'm saying tends to be drawn merely from the fact that people everywhere are exactly the same as everyone else the moment they're born, its only what happens next thats different.

But on the double standard, Pele, I 100% agree, it's something I feel that supports my point of view on the alienation of those who do not use violent sport as an outlet.

The main thing I blame for the corruption of sport is commercialism. The thing that makes it no longer a "game" and turns it into a "professional sport" this is what makes for arrogance, greed and substance abuse. But only if the participants haven't had good role models.

Edit:
I might add that I don't really think anyone here is on a different page from anyone else... we're all just using a slightly different codec for interpreting the words.

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1222737371)


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
The main thing I blame for the corruption of sport is commercialism. The thing that makes it no longer a "game" and turns it into a "professional sport" this is what makes for arrogance, greed and substance abuse. But only if the participants haven't had good role models.

I'm having trouble with how the commercialisation of sport is a related problem.

Commercialisation generally comes with professionalism and even then it's not causative. However in regards to school shootings, we're talking about people in (usually) highschool who are rather unlikely to play professional sport and who are more likely to be playing sport at school or with their local club.

And you don't have to use "violent" sports as an outlet for frustration. Tennis isn't exactly something violent (unless you're McEnroe's racquet) however the action of getting the blood flowing is what gets the frustration out.

Plus, I think it's been acknowledged that it's the kids who lack releases for their emotions (iva means other than murder/suicide) who have the problems, not the ones playing sport.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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