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Forums > Expressive movement / costumes and props > MCP's Academy of how to make a routine to music good and do other things to music good too.
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PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
Posted:MCP's Academy of how to make a routine to music good and do other things to music good too.
First of all, of course, you have to find a good piece of music. Now what this entails is almost an article in itself. Lyrics or none? Climatic or not? Classical? Emotive? Of a particular genre, over used? Recognised?
Well, having chosen your music, here's how I start off making a new routine. First off, I'll 'mark up' the music...
Lets use a favourate piece of routine music as an example... Something from the Matrix soundtrack? Or maybe Gotan Project... No instead I decided on using a piece of Amelie's Soundtrack as an example...
Les Jours Tristes [Instrumental] 3:03
A bit short for our purposes, but never mind.
Firstly, we go through the music, marking the obvious cues...
0.0.00 start
1.0.18 -
2.0.39 -
3.0.54 -
4.1.15 -
5.1.37 -
6.2.06 -
7.2.27 -
8.2.49 -
9.2.56 -
10. 3.03 end
Then we have to listen to the music again and decide if the cues are really valid cues, and give them descriptions or names, something to more easily identify the sections of the song, and help to constrain what should go in those sections....
11.0.00 start
12.0.18 Slow accordion
13.0.39 Guitar added
14.0.54 Xylophone
15.1.15 Cellists
16.1.37 Melody Repeats Building. Key/Octave Change?
17.2.06 Full melody arrives
18.2.27 Accordion Returns
19.2.56 Climax of Music - Uplifting
20. 3.03 end
2.49 was a false cue, so that's removed. Remember, it's not obvious here, but each name refers to the time before it...
Now, to do some calculation...
21.0.00 start
Slow accordion 18s
22.0.18
Guitar added - 21s
23.0.39
Xylophone - 15s
24.0.54
Cellists - 21s
25.1.15
Melody Repeats - 22s
26.1.37
Full melody arrives - 29s
27.2.06
Accordion Returns - 21s
28.2.27
Climax of Music Uplifting - 29s
29.2.56
Fade out - 7s
30. 3.03 end
So then comes the really fun bit. Counting the beats. Now it seems that this is some kinda waltz, which makes life a bit tricky, cos instead of there being four beats in a bar, there's three. Normally, there would be four. Most songs, have four. But this one has three.
31.0.00 start
Slow accordion 18s 19 x 3
32.0.18
Guitar added - 21s 24 x 3
33.0.39
Xylophone - 15s 16 x 3
34.0.54
Cellists - 21s 24 x 3
35.1.15
Melody Repeats - 22s 24 x 3
36.1.37
Full melody arrives - 29s 32 x 3
37.2.06
Accordion Returns - 21s 24 x 3
38.2.27
Climax of Music Uplifting 29s 32 x 3
39.2.56
Fade out - 7s n/a
40. 3.03 end
So from that you can see a bit better the structure of the song. If you try this exercise with a house or dance track, or even better, a few of them, you'll notice very distinct similarities in their structures. It will probably be a bit easier to count, as there generally won't be so many bars to each section. This song was a bit of an eye opener for the amount of bars in each section.
What do you do now? I hear you ask... Well, I think you find some tricks / moves / transitions and fit them into the music. You know how many beats you have to fill, so you can time all your movements to 6 beats or 12, for this song, might be better. Generally for 4 beat per bar songs, I'll got for 8 beat timings.
So with that information, for can count it out, and work out what beat each foot placement should be on, or where the top of the flower pattern should be on each beat or whatever. If you chose a song with lyrics, you can even break the constraints of the bars and use the lyrics to emphasize your thing, whatever your doing... y'know tricks and whatnot.
Equally, you can not count beats but have a very clear understanding of the structure of the music and the cues in it, that you can work with. All that work is never wasted.
Homework: Find a bit of music you fancy for a routine and complete the above steps for it...
Away my minions!
First of all, of course, you have to find a good piece of music. Now what this entails is almost an article in itself. Lyrics or none? Climatic or not? Classical? Emotive? Of a particular genre, over used? Recognised?
Well, having chosen your music, here's how I start off making a new routine. First off, I'll 'mark up' the music...
Lets use a favourate piece of routine music as an example... Something from the Matrix soundtrack? Or maybe Gotan Project... No instead I decided on using a piece of Amelie's Soundtrack as an example...
Les Jours Tristes [Instrumental] 3:03
A bit short for our purposes, but never mind.
Firstly, we go through the music, marking the obvious cues...
0.0.00 start
1.0.18 -
2.0.39 -
3.0.54 -
4.1.15 -
5.1.37 -
6.2.06 -
7.2.27 -
8.2.49 -
9.2.56 -
10. 3.03 end
Then we have to listen to the music again and decide if the cues are really valid cues, and give them descriptions or names, something to more easily identify the sections of the song, and help to constrain what should go in those sections....
11.0.00 start
12.0.18 Slow accordion
13.0.39 Guitar added
14.0.54 Xylophone
15.1.15 Cellists
16.1.37 Melody Repeats Building. Key/Octave Change?
17.2.06 Full melody arrives
18.2.27 Accordion Returns
19.2.56 Climax of Music - Uplifting
20. 3.03 end
2.49 was a false cue, so that's removed. Remember, it's not obvious here, but each name refers to the time before it...
Now, to do some calculation...
21.0.00 start
Slow accordion 18s
22.0.18
Guitar added - 21s
23.0.39
Xylophone - 15s
24.0.54
Cellists - 21s
25.1.15
Melody Repeats - 22s
26.1.37
Full melody arrives - 29s
27.2.06
Accordion Returns - 21s
28.2.27
Climax of Music Uplifting - 29s
29.2.56
Fade out - 7s
30. 3.03 end
So then comes the really fun bit. Counting the beats. Now it seems that this is some kinda waltz, which makes life a bit tricky, cos instead of there being four beats in a bar, there's three. Normally, there would be four. Most songs, have four. But this one has three.
31.0.00 start
Slow accordion 18s 19 x 3
32.0.18
Guitar added - 21s 24 x 3
33.0.39
Xylophone - 15s 16 x 3
34.0.54
Cellists - 21s 24 x 3
35.1.15
Melody Repeats - 22s 24 x 3
36.1.37
Full melody arrives - 29s 32 x 3
37.2.06
Accordion Returns - 21s 24 x 3
38.2.27
Climax of Music Uplifting 29s 32 x 3
39.2.56
Fade out - 7s n/a
40. 3.03 end
So from that you can see a bit better the structure of the song. If you try this exercise with a house or dance track, or even better, a few of them, you'll notice very distinct similarities in their structures. It will probably be a bit easier to count, as there generally won't be so many bars to each section. This song was a bit of an eye opener for the amount of bars in each section.
What do you do now? I hear you ask... Well, I think you find some tricks / moves / transitions and fit them into the music. You know how many beats you have to fill, so you can time all your movements to 6 beats or 12, for this song, might be better. Generally for 4 beat per bar songs, I'll got for 8 beat timings.
So with that information, for can count it out, and work out what beat each foot placement should be on, or where the top of the flower pattern should be on each beat or whatever. If you chose a song with lyrics, you can even break the constraints of the bars and use the lyrics to emphasize your thing, whatever your doing... y'know tricks and whatnot.
Equally, you can not count beats but have a very clear understanding of the structure of the music and the cues in it, that you can work with. All that work is never wasted.
Homework: Find a bit of music you fancy for a routine and complete the above steps for it...
Away my minions!
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
Posted:these mcp academy threads are in serious danger of motivating me into actually doing something for a change... nearly...
and I even have a newly found piece of music in mind...
and I even have a newly found piece of music in mind...
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
DeletePosted:Im diggin your ideas mate, very inspirational.
Ive been filming ALOT of Poi lately, i think i mentioned that elsewhere.
But yeah, were trying to make a seriously amazing video.
We made a cheesy little one, but here it is.
Not our best work, but our first.
Ive been filming ALOT of Poi lately, i think i mentioned that elsewhere.
But yeah, were trying to make a seriously amazing video.
We made a cheesy little one, but here it is.
Not our best work, but our first.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
16.15.8
GOLD Member since Jul 2005
I cant think therefore Im not
Location: In my backpack, United Kingdom
Total posts: 291
GOLD Member since Jul 2005
I cant think therefore Im not
Location: In my backpack, United Kingdom
Total posts: 291
Posted:Good 
bitch, I like! a lot!
bitch, I like! a lot!"I dont like shoes, definitely not spinning with shoes, they make my feet feel flat, my feet are not flat...."
Delete
Posted:The timing in the song is one (rather important) thing, but there are other things to listen out for as well.
If your performance goes continuously on the bar timing, it'll get boring. no matter what the skillz are, the delivery will feel very monotonous because, well, it will be. I'm not disagreeing with what Meg is saying here at all, just saying that once you've started doing what she says, don't make every routine follow that formula. It's a great way to start making routines, and will teach you a lot in the beginning, but later on you'll learn more 'hints and tips' to add in to make it that little more interesting and gripping.
A little variety/speedchange/use of dynamics/even a complete stop will help spice it up a bit, and keep watchers interested. Take Balledanse, for example. peaks & troughs, slow and fast, big and small. often leaving the timing of the song, but able to pick it up again later on.
A constant barrage of tricks can overload the watcher quite easily. Especially if they follow the age old pattern of increasing in difficulty. Really don't be afraid to stretch beats/bars out, shorten others, and even to stop sometimes to let your audience catch up and register that there is some sickness going on on stage, and they want more, or even a gap to provide applause.
Listen for the sounds used in the music. Often they can be translated as a sound effect that happens when you do a certain move, or a sound that makes various things happen on the stage... Stick to one, and there could be the glue that holds your routine together.
What emotion does your music instill in you? what does the music make you subconciously do, and regularly? an example, whenever I hear a certain piece of music, if I'm dancing, only one type of move fits in that place. I didn't try to make it that way, it just is. Windowlicker by Aphex Twin. Damn that's a hard tune to do anything to. A lot of the breaks have their own individual movements for me, because the sound I hear makes me think about what movement would create it.
Lyrics in music is a tough one. Especially if the music is some chart rubbish, talking about love taking you higher... ugh. I've been looking into music with lyrics recently, and I reckon there are a few bands that even though the songs have lyrics, there's still a story. Bands like Pink Floyd, Genesis, etc. Prog Rock is great for telling a story in the lyrics, and more often than not, it's not a sappy love story. I really want to make a routine to Time by Pink floyd... Especially the Dub Side of the Moon version.
Am I rambling, or making sense, or even in the wrong place with this stuff? Do we want videos of people with great musicality? ( and not just people spinning/juggling and a track laid over it, giving the illusion of musicality with editing... although, that can help you decide what you want to do, and when...
If your performance goes continuously on the bar timing, it'll get boring. no matter what the skillz are, the delivery will feel very monotonous because, well, it will be. I'm not disagreeing with what Meg is saying here at all, just saying that once you've started doing what she says, don't make every routine follow that formula. It's a great way to start making routines, and will teach you a lot in the beginning, but later on you'll learn more 'hints and tips' to add in to make it that little more interesting and gripping.
A little variety/speedchange/use of dynamics/even a complete stop will help spice it up a bit, and keep watchers interested. Take Balledanse, for example. peaks & troughs, slow and fast, big and small. often leaving the timing of the song, but able to pick it up again later on.
A constant barrage of tricks can overload the watcher quite easily. Especially if they follow the age old pattern of increasing in difficulty. Really don't be afraid to stretch beats/bars out, shorten others, and even to stop sometimes to let your audience catch up and register that there is some sickness going on on stage, and they want more, or even a gap to provide applause.
Listen for the sounds used in the music. Often they can be translated as a sound effect that happens when you do a certain move, or a sound that makes various things happen on the stage... Stick to one, and there could be the glue that holds your routine together.
What emotion does your music instill in you? what does the music make you subconciously do, and regularly? an example, whenever I hear a certain piece of music, if I'm dancing, only one type of move fits in that place. I didn't try to make it that way, it just is. Windowlicker by Aphex Twin. Damn that's a hard tune to do anything to. A lot of the breaks have their own individual movements for me, because the sound I hear makes me think about what movement would create it.
Lyrics in music is a tough one. Especially if the music is some chart rubbish, talking about love taking you higher... ugh. I've been looking into music with lyrics recently, and I reckon there are a few bands that even though the songs have lyrics, there's still a story. Bands like Pink Floyd, Genesis, etc. Prog Rock is great for telling a story in the lyrics, and more often than not, it's not a sappy love story. I really want to make a routine to Time by Pink floyd... Especially the Dub Side of the Moon version.
Am I rambling, or making sense, or even in the wrong place with this stuff? Do we want videos of people with great musicality? ( and not just people spinning/juggling and a track laid over it, giving the illusion of musicality with editing... although, that can help you decide what you want to do, and when...
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
Posted:good points ed. I was just tired after listening to that song like 10 times, to actually write anything about the stuff that goes into a routine.
Plus this is just my personal way of getting familiar with a song... I'm sure there are others.
Plus this is just my personal way of getting familiar with a song... I'm sure there are others.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Posted:Your personal way, I like 
It does give results.
much better than my idea of repeated listening (Note to others - I learnt the hard way. do this, and your favourite song will quickly become your most hated...
)
The problem I have, is knowing where to start. So many variables, which one gets my attention first? you've given me a starting point, now I'm away!
Now I need to work out what to do with two minutes and 26 seconds of intro... filling the time is easy. making it entertaining isn't so...
It does give results.much better than my idea of repeated listening (Note to others - I learnt the hard way. do this, and your favourite song will quickly become your most hated...
)The problem I have, is knowing where to start. So many variables, which one gets my attention first? you've given me a starting point, now I'm away!
Now I need to work out what to do with two minutes and 26 seconds of intro... filling the time is easy. making it entertaining isn't so...
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
Posted:I've got to much the same point with the song I chose (yes, I actually motivated myself into chopping a song up and analysing it for a prospective choreo); it's a bit of a stomping 4/4 "blues/roots/tinge of rock" type thing and as such, the overall pattern of the song is quite formulaic:
intro / verse / mini-bridge / verse / chorus / bridge / verse / mini-bridge / verse / chorus / bridge / chorus / outro
most all, 8 bars a piece, so it'll behove me to ensure that the spinning isn't equally formulaic.
intro / verse / mini-bridge / verse / chorus / bridge / verse / mini-bridge / verse / chorus / bridge / chorus / outro
most all, 8 bars a piece, so it'll behove me to ensure that the spinning isn't equally formulaic.
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
Delete
Posted:Cool thread, and a topic very much on my mind as I am developing a 3-man hoop routine at the moment.
The approach you describe is how I have developed routines in the past, but lately I have been wondering what it would be like to take a more improvisatory approach. So instead of listening to the track 10 times and analyzing the beats & structure and building the routine around that analysis, you'd spin to it 10 times (and record it), then watch the recording and note the parts that work. You could then still do the analysis and build out the rest of the routine from the parts found through improv.
I know a number of dance choreographers who work that way and that process has been intriguing me lately.
The thought that just occurred to me as I write this though, is that perhaps the improv could help you find the "movement vocabulary" (to borrow a dance phrase) whereas the musical analysis could help you with structure?
The approach you describe is how I have developed routines in the past, but lately I have been wondering what it would be like to take a more improvisatory approach. So instead of listening to the track 10 times and analyzing the beats & structure and building the routine around that analysis, you'd spin to it 10 times (and record it), then watch the recording and note the parts that work. You could then still do the analysis and build out the rest of the routine from the parts found through improv.
I know a number of dance choreographers who work that way and that process has been intriguing me lately.
The thought that just occurred to me as I write this though, is that perhaps the improv could help you find the "movement vocabulary" (to borrow a dance phrase) whereas the musical analysis could help you with structure?
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
Posted:Yeah Khan, you nailed it.
Often dancers will first just listen to the music many times, until the have a real sense of its trajectory timing and flow. Then they will improv to it, see what movement it inspires. Recording this is useful, so you can pull them out later instead of trying to recall everything. Then taking what movements and ideas were generated form the improvisation, you can place it within a structured format, fitting it in with the music.
So yeah, both improv and musical analysis are good tools...
Often dancers will first just listen to the music many times, until the have a real sense of its trajectory timing and flow. Then they will improv to it, see what movement it inspires. Recording this is useful, so you can pull them out later instead of trying to recall everything. Then taking what movements and ideas were generated form the improvisation, you can place it within a structured format, fitting it in with the music.
So yeah, both improv and musical analysis are good tools...
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
DeletePosted:http://www.dance.net/topic/4326723/1/Modern-Dance-General/Simple-Guide-To-Choreography.html
br>
This is a link to a cute lightweight but pretty damn good summary of some choreographic processes...
It can help with all approaches to choreographing a piece, by giving you a range of factors to keep in mind. Even reading it before doing improv could help, so that part of your mind will be conscious of exploring lots of different movement possibilities. You could chose to give a different focus/emotion/conceptual motivation to each session of improv, keeping the same music, and see what works best to develop an engaging movement vocabulary.
Sometimes we just fall back into out comfort zones if we dont remind ourselves to reach beyond that scope, and look at the whole range...
One thing to keep in mind while working within the structures of music, counting beats et al, is that you can end up with something too formulaic and predictable if not careful. You dont want the audience to always know the move will change on four or eight... ( sometimes) Be aware that the beat can actually just be used like a heartbeat holding it all together,background-- and you can chose to emphasis different ascpect of the music instead, or layer many aspects with different parts of your body. I often prefer to let the melody be the stimulous to my movement, and have the beat just be a background foundation, accenting it at certain points and not others.
ack, outta time, sorry!
br>
This is a link to a cute lightweight but pretty damn good summary of some choreographic processes...
It can help with all approaches to choreographing a piece, by giving you a range of factors to keep in mind. Even reading it before doing improv could help, so that part of your mind will be conscious of exploring lots of different movement possibilities. You could chose to give a different focus/emotion/conceptual motivation to each session of improv, keeping the same music, and see what works best to develop an engaging movement vocabulary.
Sometimes we just fall back into out comfort zones if we dont remind ourselves to reach beyond that scope, and look at the whole range...
One thing to keep in mind while working within the structures of music, counting beats et al, is that you can end up with something too formulaic and predictable if not careful. You dont want the audience to always know the move will change on four or eight... ( sometimes) Be aware that the beat can actually just be used like a heartbeat holding it all together,background-- and you can chose to emphasis different ascpect of the music instead, or layer many aspects with different parts of your body. I often prefer to let the melody be the stimulous to my movement, and have the beat just be a background foundation, accenting it at certain points and not others.
ack, outta time, sorry!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
DeletePosted:**And you can make a while dance without music, and enjoy seeing what happens when you then put music over it... It can be very interesting that way!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
DeletePogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
Posted:Originally Posted By: BansheeCat
One thing to keep in mind while working within the structures of music, counting beats et al, is that you can end up with something too formulaic and predictable if not careful. You dont want the audience to always know the move will change on four or eight... ( sometimes)
that's exactly what I think could all too easily happen with the piece I've decided to start playing with... because every single section, bar the intro is sets of 8 bars, it'd be a really easy trap to fall into. still... what's life without a challenge...!!
*goes to read link*
One thing to keep in mind while working within the structures of music, counting beats et al, is that you can end up with something too formulaic and predictable if not careful. You dont want the audience to always know the move will change on four or eight... ( sometimes)
that's exactly what I think could all too easily happen with the piece I've decided to start playing with... because every single section, bar the intro is sets of 8 bars, it'd be a really easy trap to fall into. still... what's life without a challenge...!!
*goes to read link*
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
Deleteaston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Total posts: 4061
SILVER Member since Dec 2007
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Total posts: 4061
Posted:I think I might try this. Just for the heck of it.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
Posted:@Darken
I'm surprised there's no response to you.
I think the video is bad.
I'm glad I got that out of the way.
I think it's a bad song choice. I'm sure it can be used much better, but Trans-Siberian Orchestra always sounds cliche to me, and what you were doing was so anti-climactic.
The patterns at the beginning and end were interesting but eventually too repetitious. I also think you should drop the picture at the beginning with the little warpy effect on it. It doesn't really add anything but kill the time in the song were you didn't have any idea what to do.
I couldn't see you at all. I saw some lights...I saw a lot of arching color. I didn't see any people. A very important part of this stuff is actually seeing the person doing it. There's far m roe to Poi than just the circles.
Because of the previous problem the vast majority of the content is moot. It's a lot of circles...
This may be some rough criticism on my part but I think you need to know that the flaws are noticed.
I'm surprised there's no response to you.
I think the video is bad.
I'm glad I got that out of the way.
I think it's a bad song choice. I'm sure it can be used much better, but Trans-Siberian Orchestra always sounds cliche to me, and what you were doing was so anti-climactic.
The patterns at the beginning and end were interesting but eventually too repetitious. I also think you should drop the picture at the beginning with the little warpy effect on it. It doesn't really add anything but kill the time in the song were you didn't have any idea what to do.
I couldn't see you at all. I saw some lights...I saw a lot of arching color. I didn't see any people. A very important part of this stuff is actually seeing the person doing it. There's far m roe to Poi than just the circles.
Because of the previous problem the vast majority of the content is moot. It's a lot of circles...
This may be some rough criticism on my part but I think you need to know that the flaws are noticed.
Delete
Posted:I usually free-dance to a song a few times before I go back and start to break down the timing. I see what moves feel right to certain parts of the song, then once I have the timing broken down, I go back and put the moves in.
Alot of times, I'll decide that what I've got just doesn't work...maybe the moves don't transition well, or they just don't fit a specific part, but it's sure a whole lot easier to learn a choreo this way. If you don't have some sort of structure to go by, you can end up getting confused and completely freezing up. That's no fun, at all!!!
I've noticed a big difference in my performances since I've started using a structured base, too. I used to just try to figure it all out without writing anything down. Now, my dances are much smoother and more confident.
I still love doing improv, but with ATS, you have certain moves that are done in a specific way and cues that the leader gives to let you know what move she's going into. The first time I was in a large group with other dancers that I didn't know, it was such a great feeling to actually be able to dance along with them without ever having danced with them before.
Alot of times, I'll decide that what I've got just doesn't work...maybe the moves don't transition well, or they just don't fit a specific part, but it's sure a whole lot easier to learn a choreo this way. If you don't have some sort of structure to go by, you can end up getting confused and completely freezing up. That's no fun, at all!!!
I've noticed a big difference in my performances since I've started using a structured base, too. I used to just try to figure it all out without writing anything down. Now, my dances are much smoother and more confident.
I still love doing improv, but with ATS, you have certain moves that are done in a specific way and cues that the leader gives to let you know what move she's going into. The first time I was in a large group with other dancers that I didn't know, it was such a great feeling to actually be able to dance along with them without ever having danced with them before.
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
Posted:Originally Posted By: Bek66
I still love doing improv, but with ATS, you have certain moves that are done in a specific way and cues that the leader gives to let you know what move she's going into. The first time I was in a large group with other dancers that I didn't know, it was such a great feeling to actually be able to dance along with them without ever having danced with them before.
hello, gorgeous girl... 
ATS == "American Tribal Style" Belly Dance for the uninitiated; a very cool "system", wherein series of moves and cues, allow a group of dancers to seamlessly synchronise an improvised dance. I was amazed when I first saw it in practise... well, the youtube equivalent of seeing something in practise, anyway.
I still love doing improv, but with ATS, you have certain moves that are done in a specific way and cues that the leader gives to let you know what move she's going into. The first time I was in a large group with other dancers that I didn't know, it was such a great feeling to actually be able to dance along with them without ever having danced with them before.
hello, gorgeous girl...
ATS == "American Tribal Style" Belly Dance for the uninitiated; a very cool "system", wherein series of moves and cues, allow a group of dancers to seamlessly synchronise an improvised dance. I was amazed when I first saw it in practise... well, the youtube equivalent of seeing something in practise, anyway.
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
DeletePosted:Thank you, m'darling...you're much more eloquent of speech than am I...
And for a taste of what I'm referring to...here are the creators of ATS Belly Dance...doing it amazing, as always...
And for a taste of what I'm referring to...here are the creators of ATS Belly Dance...doing it amazing, as always...
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
Posted:Geez...what did I do, kill the thread?
I guess I should explain a little about the reasoning behind posting that vid.
In ATS, the moves are broken down into counts of 8...you will generally repeat the move for those 8 counts, at which point, the leader (who is the one in the left-front) cues into a new move. The cue can be nothing more than a slight change in arm position, or it can be more dramatic. Turns are cued by a glance to the left. In ATS, all turns are to the left, to avoid confusion. In contrast, most of the moves are executed first on the right. If you were to be doing fusion style, you could use these moves in any way you want, but in group improv, the moves are structured so that you don't have confusion on which side or which way the moves should turn.
It would be really interesting to see someone come up with cues for Fire Spinning...they'd all have to be maybe in foot or head movements, since your arms are kind of occupied, but it would be worth working out for anyone that would like to do a routine with others.
I guess I should explain a little about the reasoning behind posting that vid.
In ATS, the moves are broken down into counts of 8...you will generally repeat the move for those 8 counts, at which point, the leader (who is the one in the left-front) cues into a new move. The cue can be nothing more than a slight change in arm position, or it can be more dramatic. Turns are cued by a glance to the left. In ATS, all turns are to the left, to avoid confusion. In contrast, most of the moves are executed first on the right. If you were to be doing fusion style, you could use these moves in any way you want, but in group improv, the moves are structured so that you don't have confusion on which side or which way the moves should turn.
It would be really interesting to see someone come up with cues for Fire Spinning...they'd all have to be maybe in foot or head movements, since your arms are kind of occupied, but it would be worth working out for anyone that would like to do a routine with others.
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
Posted:As a group, we've always ( well, me in particular ) cues to be challenge, especially when spinning fire. We've been using audio cues like a whoop or a yip but sometimes those get lost in the roar of the flames.
Timing has always been an issue as some people tend to get "a little more dramatic" when performing in front of an audience and tend to speed up their spinning speed and once you toss in the fear of "am I doing this right?" ie nervousness, we've found that using visual cues is rather unreliable.
Recently, we've become more organised and tend to rely more on counting things out which has led to more people commenting on our choreography this past winter ...so something's happening.
That's an interesting idea, always turning in the same direction. I'll suggest it when we have out yearly " what are we going to do this year? " meeting next January. I'm also going to suggest we hire a professional choreographer to work with us for a while, that way we can learn as a group.
Bek, I hadn't noticed that the dance troupe had a leader, but after reading your post and re watching the clip, sometimes, it's obvious ( other times not ) thanks for the explanation.
Timing has always been an issue as some people tend to get "a little more dramatic" when performing in front of an audience and tend to speed up their spinning speed and once you toss in the fear of "am I doing this right?" ie nervousness, we've found that using visual cues is rather unreliable.
Recently, we've become more organised and tend to rely more on counting things out which has led to more people commenting on our choreography this past winter
...so something's happening. That's an interesting idea, always turning in the same direction. I'll suggest it when we have out yearly " what are we going to do this year? " meeting next January. I'm also going to suggest we hire a professional choreographer to work with us for a while, that way we can learn as a group.
Bek, I hadn't noticed that the dance troupe had a leader, but after reading your post and re watching the clip, sometimes, it's obvious ( other times not ) thanks for the explanation.
Delete
Posted:Ye, there are audio cues at times, too...exactly the same as you said...but those are usually within specific troupes and not a 'structured' cue as some of the others are.
The thing about Fat Chance is that they've been dancing together for so long that their cues can be very subtle and the rest of the group will still catch it and go into the correct move.
Yep...the leader is generally in the left-front and the change in leaders works just like it would in a game of volleyball...you rotate until someone else decides to take the lead...that way, if someone decides they really don't want to lead, they just keep going till a new leader takes over.
Either way, it's a great system...and sooooo much fun!!!
The thing about Fat Chance is that they've been dancing together for so long that their cues can be very subtle and the rest of the group will still catch it and go into the correct move.
Yep...the leader is generally in the left-front and the change in leaders works just like it would in a game of volleyball...you rotate until someone else decides to take the lead...that way, if someone decides they really don't want to lead, they just keep going till a new leader takes over.
Either way, it's a great system...and sooooo much fun!!!
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
SILVER Member since Apr 2006
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia
Total posts: 3764
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stout
Bek, I hadn't noticed that the dance troupe had a leader, but after reading your post and re watching the clip, sometimes, it's obvious ( other times not ) thanks for the explanation.
that's almost exactly what I said when bek first showed me that clip; when I was looking for it, I could begin to pick up some of the cues, but some... I can't even see when I know they must be there. is a testament to the fluidity with which they do it.
I've been fascinated with the idea of "someone" developing a similar system for spinning; you're right about the fire introducing another level of complexity, for both visual and audio cues. it's sometimes difficult to see or hear much of anything else around you when you've got flames whooshing past your head.
still, I think it'd be a very worthwhile pursuit; if nothing else, the development process would get a group thinking about ways to improve the way they work as a cohesive unit.
there's lots about belly dancing that intrigues me, with respect to it's applicability to being integrated with (my) spinning. rhythm, isolations, body control in general etc, but some of that probably belongs in meg's other "how to move good" thread.
Bek, I hadn't noticed that the dance troupe had a leader, but after reading your post and re watching the clip, sometimes, it's obvious ( other times not ) thanks for the explanation.
that's almost exactly what I said when bek first showed me that clip; when I was looking for it, I could begin to pick up some of the cues, but some... I can't even see when I know they must be there. is a testament to the fluidity with which they do it.
I've been fascinated with the idea of "someone" developing a similar system for spinning; you're right about the fire introducing another level of complexity, for both visual and audio cues. it's sometimes difficult to see or hear much of anything else around you when you've got flames whooshing past your head.
still, I think it'd be a very worthwhile pursuit; if nothing else, the development process would get a group thinking about ways to improve the way they work as a cohesive unit.
there's lots about belly dancing that intrigues me, with respect to it's applicability to being integrated with (my) spinning. rhythm, isolations, body control in general etc, but some of that probably belongs in meg's other "how to move good" thread.
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
DeletePosted:Originally Posted By: Pogo69
I've been fascinated with the idea of "someone" developing a similar system for spinning; you're right about the fire introducing another level of complexity, for both visual and audio cues. it's sometimes difficult to see or hear much of anything else around you when you've got flames whooshing past your head.
still, I think it'd be a very worthwhile pursuit; if nothing else, the development process would get a group thinking about ways to improve the way they work as a cohesive unit.
Hi Pogo
One other challenge we're facing as a troupe is not always being able to see each other at all times. I've been harping on about how we should move away from a proscenium based format into an in the round style of choreography for years now because experience=ence has shown, we usually perform in the round. This has led to wanting performers to direct their attention away from the other performers and toward the audience members, wherever they may be and that redirection of attention tends to screw up timing.
Most, nay all, of the "partner" stuff I've been watching on my screen here, is specifically set up to appeal to either a video camera or whoever's sitting front and center. I understand why this is done ( IMO it's easier ) and it makes from some pretty cool effects from that one, limited, POV.
I've been fascinated with the idea of "someone" developing a similar system for spinning; you're right about the fire introducing another level of complexity, for both visual and audio cues. it's sometimes difficult to see or hear much of anything else around you when you've got flames whooshing past your head.
still, I think it'd be a very worthwhile pursuit; if nothing else, the development process would get a group thinking about ways to improve the way they work as a cohesive unit.
Hi Pogo
One other challenge we're facing as a troupe is not always being able to see each other at all times. I've been harping on about how we should move away from a proscenium based format into an in the round style of choreography for years now because experience=ence has shown, we usually perform in the round. This has led to wanting performers to direct their attention away from the other performers and toward the audience members, wherever they may be and that redirection of attention tends to screw up timing.
Most, nay all, of the "partner" stuff I've been watching on my screen here, is specifically set up to appeal to either a video camera or whoever's sitting front and center. I understand why this is done ( IMO it's easier ) and it makes from some pretty cool effects from that one, limited, POV.
Delete
Posted:Ye, I can understand the thing of not being able to see past the fire...it really would make it hard to see cues...
But, as far as being able to see each other, or a leader...that's one thing I forgot the mention...the formation and way we stand in ATS is set up such that all the troupe can see the leader...staggered lines and you stand at a slight angle, facing just a lil to the left...that way, you can see the leader without having to keep your head turned in that direction...
Might help? *shrugs*
But, as far as being able to see each other, or a leader...that's one thing I forgot the mention...the formation and way we stand in ATS is set up such that all the troupe can see the leader...staggered lines and you stand at a slight angle, facing just a lil to the left...that way, you can see the leader without having to keep your head turned in that direction...
Might help? *shrugs*
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
Posted:I thought I see twice ... smile.
Back on, truly it's like 4 year ago when I come to this,
writing on music, to one song I like, for performace.
But I've found I can't do the same thing twice, or even
once for long period. I can repeat a move,but I faild
at repeating routine.
From then, I'm practising to whatever music I've come
to find. It's interesting in a way you understand
the rhythm and how to work with it.
Also I've experimented with several music style, but I
didn't found music that I really can't spin to, execept
Rock music, but I rather wan't then can't.
It's maybe cause of tune, but really good music
can get you into it too.
that counts,
:R
Back on, truly it's like 4 year ago when I come to this,
writing on music, to one song I like, for performace.
But I've found I can't do the same thing twice, or even
once for long period. I can repeat a move,but I faild
at repeating routine.
From then, I'm practising to whatever music I've come
to find. It's interesting in a way you understand
the rhythm and how to work with it.
Also I've experimented with several music style, but I
didn't found music that I really can't spin to, execept
Rock music, but I rather wan't then can't.
It's maybe cause of tune, but really good music
can get you into it too.
that counts,
:R
Poi THEO(R)IST
DeletePosted:I'm working on some routines now. And since my general work space is my bedroom (le sigh) the choreography is limited. Right now my focus seems to be on doing a few very specific things at specific points but leaving a lot of it up to improv within certain set parameters.
Like...for begining doing Rope Dart Tricks in small circles with both hands free (not holding excess rope), then maybe do some horizontal work for a different section. It's a bit more like jazz, which lately seems to be what I'm dancing too anyway.
Like...for begining doing Rope Dart Tricks in small circles with both hands free (not holding excess rope), then maybe do some horizontal work for a different section. It's a bit more like jazz, which lately seems to be what I'm dancing too anyway.
Delete
Posted:One of the most fun types of music to spin to, to me, is pretty much also the hardest for me to dance to. A free-form drum circle. I love hooping to a drum circle, but as far as dancing goes, with the ecstatic rhythms that are usually used on the drums,it makes it really hard to execute dance moves.
Now, if it's a dumbek drum circle, no problem, but most times it's djembe's which are more geared towards a tribal rhythm, whereas, with a dumbek, the rhythms are generally middle eastern. Since belly dance has it's roots in middle eastern dance, the rhythms are more suited to the movements that we do.
I did get very lucky when I went to Shakori Hills music festival this past fall. There were probably 20 drummers and just a bunch of people standing around and dammit, I wanted to dance!!! So, lil miss extrovert decided she was gonna try it, anyway! When one of the drummers on one of the largest drums saw me, he instigated a more structured rhythm and I was actually able to dance for about 15 minutes without looking like a complete idiot...*giggle* I was glad that there was someone there that knew that if they kept up that frantic rhythm, I'd not be able to dance to it...not without looking like I was having a seizure, at least! I love doing improv, but without the right music, it ain't easy!!!
I can dance to just about any type of music and one of these days, when I have the stamina to work thru it, I'm gonna work something up for Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata...the whole movement.
I'm just a lil bit crazy!
Now, if it's a dumbek drum circle, no problem, but most times it's djembe's which are more geared towards a tribal rhythm, whereas, with a dumbek, the rhythms are generally middle eastern. Since belly dance has it's roots in middle eastern dance, the rhythms are more suited to the movements that we do.
I did get very lucky when I went to Shakori Hills music festival this past fall. There were probably 20 drummers and just a bunch of people standing around and dammit, I wanted to dance!!! So, lil miss extrovert decided she was gonna try it, anyway! When one of the drummers on one of the largest drums saw me, he instigated a more structured rhythm and I was actually able to dance for about 15 minutes without looking like a complete idiot...*giggle* I was glad that there was someone there that knew that if they kept up that frantic rhythm, I'd not be able to dance to it...not without looking like I was having a seizure, at least! I love doing improv, but without the right music, it ain't easy!!!
I can dance to just about any type of music and one of these days, when I have the stamina to work thru it, I'm gonna work something up for Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata...the whole movement.
I'm just a lil bit crazy!
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
G4dget
GOLD Member since Aug 2006
Eternal Student of all things Skill
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Total posts: 110
GOLD Member since Aug 2006
Eternal Student of all things Skill
Location: Kansas City, KS, USA
Total posts: 110
Posted:Great post! I have been wanting work on a choreographed routine for quite sometime now and this is definitely going to give me a good starting point if only to get a basic one to start with.
Happiness runs in a circular motion!!
G4dget
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