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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I am friends with a fire troupe. The founding members of the troupe were on HoP when it first started and our troupes were fledgelings together. We became close over the years and the primary founder is one of my best friends. We shall call him C.

I am acquainted with another troupe, same country. I remember when they were young and starting out, trying to find their footing. Since they have grown and I have watched what I believed to be their own creativity flourish. I have grown to respect them very much over the years, and like them as well. We shall call this troupe X.

Recently C. and I got into a discussion about X. He was convinced that many years ago X. took some of the footage of his troupe and used it as their own for promotional purposes. He got this information from a client that he trusted but he never confronted troupe X nor has he paid attention to their goings on. I also happened to know that at the time there were two troupes in relatively close proximity functioning under the same name, and I argued the possibility of it being the second troupe, believing X wouldn't do such a thing, knowing the namesake troupe had faded almost as fast as it flashed up.

The arguement to C. and I was most upsetting. In my eyes he was attacking people I liked, cared about, respected and admired based on circumstantial evidence, and he was most stubborn about it.

Imagine my surprise when I went to X's website to look at their updates only to find a video that is IDENTICAL to that of one of C's shows. I don't mean, a little here and there. I mean layout, costume elements, props C designed specifically for his shows were copied, even part of the choreography was the same. There is absolutely no way all of that could even remotely be coincidence. Not when C's troupe has been touring with that show for years, and the X show is relatively new.

I watched a couple other videos and noticed some other blatant rip offs of other performers as well.

I nearly threw up.

I've emailed C and apologized. Crow tastes like how I imagine crap on a cracker would be.
I've also pointed him in the direction of their videos so he can see for himself.

Why can't people just be inspired and then create their own stuff?
Why do they have to steal other peoples creations?

My friend Sage has a quote that he applies to underbidding and show poaching "Hell has a special place for people like that."

I'm inclined to agree, but I hate when I am wrong and I hate when people I respect fall so freakin' far.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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ElectricBlue
ElectricBlue

Now with extra strawberries
Location: Canberra
Member Since: 11th Feb 2002
Total posts: 810
Posted:Gosh, that would make me sick too.

It reminds me of an experience i had where at the time i was unknowingly ripped off and my services were used to undercut the local market. The day I realised how badly my good friend and i were ripped off and how badly the troupe was managed was the first day that i have ever had somebody to truly despise.

"Hell has a special place for people like that."
I do like that quote. It's true in the end those people that cheat will get what they deserve.


I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:I wonder why, in a case where the offense can be verified easily, like this, why you choose to protect people by not disclosing their names?

Just curious, because when i know for a fact someone has done something awful, one of the best ways to prevent this behavior in the future, in them and in others, is to hold them publically accountable.

It seems one of the ways people get away with it, is because people dont want to create a fuss by outing them.

Why they do it, is usually a combination of laziness , fear, and poor organization.

It is terribily disappointing though, isnt it...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:Back when me and a mate at college practised staff together, we watched troupe videos and tried to imitate them, mostly to look badass.

Whilst we were inspired, I'd never dream of using other people's choreographies in my own performance. It seems like a huge spit in the face.

Hope those dudes get what's coming to 'em.


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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LadyAmanita
stranger

Member Since: 26th Nov 2008
Total posts: 16
Posted:Out of respect to a group of local performers, I will never use the song "Russian lullabye" by E-Type in a performance. It's fun to listen and dance to, but one of the performers in the group uses it as his theme.

I've got enough funky stuff of my own to use, I'm not going to completely rip off somebody's signature tune, or the choreography of an entire routine.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Songs are not a big deal.
Inspiration is expected (I should hope!)

The problem is this isn't inspiration it's the music, unique props, costumes, *everything*..not just one small element.

BansheeCat, it's not my place to name names. Some members and supporters of the troupe are on here. Could you imagine that you do what you're told, follow along having a jolly time and then get blasted publically for something you weren't aware you were doing?
That would be mortifying.

The people who run the troupe know who they are, and I am hoping they will read this and realize they've been caught.
Perhaps reading the opinions of others and how disgustingly *not* okay this is will help drill into them the wrongness of their actions.

I'm hoping this will serve as a lesson to others that it does get found out and it is frowned upon to do this crap.
There is potential for prosecution, it is that blatantly bad.

I'm hoping a discourse about inspiration vs. theft happens (seems to be)

There are alot of things that I hope this posting will achieve but a public trial isn't one of them. That would be up to C.

EDITED_BY: Pele (1228254804)
EDIT_REASON: cause there is a difference between a trail and a trial ;)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:yeah, I can see your point...

I do hope they get the message, and that you privately inform people that have been working in the troupe, so they can make informed choices.

xoxox
a


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Pogo69
Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo
Member Since: 6th Apr 2006
Total posts: 3764
Posted:ye, I appreciate both sides; while in a significantly different vocation, I see surprisingly similar things happen here at work all the time. and for the most part, nothing changes, because either no-one has the guts to speak up, or would rather try to deal with things quietly, one on one, with the protagonist(s).

is a bit different here though; because HoP isn't a workplace; it is, as pele intimates, primarily a gathering of like-minded individuals (friends) and public vilification of those responsible may well affect innocent parties in the process.

either way; how rude!! I hope 'C' pursues it, because it sounds like a job for legal proceedings.


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Ya I hope you write or talk to X directly so they really do know you know. This seems like a much bigger version of the chat that happened here about *insert names of Japanese party spinners I can't recall right now* doing blatantly Flame Oz choreo on a COL. But much worse.


But this:
Originally Posted By: PeleSongs are not a big deal.


It has led my to wondering: I wonder how many fire performers credit or give performance fees/royalties to the writers of the music they use? Seeing that the music is such a part of many effective performances?


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I'm trying to encourage him to Pogo. I just can't see this being let go.

newgabe, I can only speak for myself..well..and US rulings, but if we use contemporary copyright holding music we either have to pay a monthly fee to a licensure corporation. What they do is work for record companies. They collect money mostly from nightclubs/discos which do pay for the rights to use the music, but sometimes performers have to pay them as well. This can get *really* pricey.
OR
A performer who uses such music can simply perform in clubs, which are already covered in that area.
OR
A performer can use a song where at least 10% of it has been changed from the original, thus releasing it from the copyright. This can also include using only a portion of it.
I saw a really horrible circus who got around paying Cirque Du Soliel rights by playing the original CDS song and then having a crap drummer drumming over it while the performer in the crap circus did the *exact* routine used by the CDS performer.
I protest that very loudly on the way out, and got the people around me to do so as well, including the reporter there to review it. grin

Also, any charitable performance where the performer is not making money is exempt from royalty fees.

We give credit on distributed materials.
For example, a friend of ours does all the music on our promo video, so she is in the credits.
For the 2 hour stage shows we do, credit is in the programs.

How many performers do you know give credit to their inspirations?
That's another big one. I've come across so many where it is obvious something they were doing was inspired by someone more well known and when I call them on it, they first try to plead innocent and eventually fess up.
I have more respect for the ones who say "I saw this by blah-blah and liked it so I changed it and made it my own."

Music we can figure out, guess or even know.
Inspiration from other performers is more obscure and yet no less important I think.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:To me, influences are to be cherished and celebrated.
That said, there's a difference between influence and what this sounds like.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Absolutely MRC, this goes well beyond the realm of influence.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:I hope it's cleanly sorted out. At first I was wondering why you didn't just name them, but it occurs to me that I'm glad you decided not to. I'd prefer to not have my view of people I've never met skewed. People do censored up some times, and rather them not be made into lepers, hopefully the whole mess can be sorted out.

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