Forums > Social Discussion > McCain's Endorsement from Hell
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
McCain has a problem. A big one. He got an endorsement. A BIG endorsement by a very influential group in American politics.
He got an endorsement by Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda also endorsed Bush four years ago.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/opinion/26kristof.html?em
Quote:
John McCain isn’t boasting about a new endorsement, one of the very, very few he has received from overseas. It came a few days ago:
“Al Qaeda will have to support McCain in the coming election,” read a commentary on a password-protected Islamist Web site that is closely linked to Al Qaeda and often disseminates the group’s propaganda.
Now, you might be tempted to say that they're just playing games. They're using reverse psychology because they really want Obama.
Read his argument. I think they want McCain. I don't think they're playing games. I think they're dead serious. Because while Al-Qaeda is many terrible, horrible things, they are usually very honest.
See, one of the reasons Al Qaeda benefits from U.S. military action in the Mid-East is that little boys who grow up and watch people getting blown to bits grow up to be angry young men. And that is what Al Qaeda is. A bunch of very angry men.
McCain has a problem. A big one. He got an endorsement. A BIG endorsement by a very influential group in American politics.
He got an endorsement by Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda also endorsed Bush four years ago.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/opinion/26kristof.html?em
Quote:
John McCain isn’t boasting about a new endorsement, one of the very, very few he has received from overseas. It came a few days ago:
“Al Qaeda will have to support McCain in the coming election,” read a commentary on a password-protected Islamist Web site that is closely linked to Al Qaeda and often disseminates the group’s propaganda.
Now, you might be tempted to say that they're just playing games. They're using reverse psychology because they really want Obama.
Read his argument. I think they want McCain. I don't think they're playing games. I think they're dead serious. Because while Al-Qaeda is many terrible, horrible things, they are usually very honest.
See, one of the reasons Al Qaeda benefits from U.S. military action in the Mid-East is that little boys who grow up and watch people getting blown to bits grow up to be angry young men. And that is what Al Qaeda is. A bunch of very angry men.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
uh ohes spuhgettioes.
uh ohes spuhgettioes.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
GOLD Member
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted:
That's ^ gold
That's ^ gold
I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
For years many, many people have been saying exactly the same thing, but in English. And it's only when it's in Arabic at election time that anyone takes note! The government here and in the US has constantly denied what's obvious to everyone else. That "little boys who grow up and watch people getting blown to bits grow up to be angry young men".
Unfortunately even this has been spin in favor of McCain as there's still many, many people who think people pick up and guns and strap on bomb vests because of either jealousy of the west or mental illness and that tackling the root cause is excusing or 'giving in'.
For years many, many people have been saying exactly the same thing, but in English. And it's only when it's in Arabic at election time that anyone takes note! The government here and in the US has constantly denied what's obvious to everyone else. That "little boys who grow up and watch people getting blown to bits grow up to be angry young men".
Unfortunately even this has been spin in favor of McCain as there's still many, many people who think people pick up and guns and strap on bomb vests because of either jealousy of the west or mental illness and that tackling the root cause is excusing or 'giving in'.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
Even if it wasn't about angry young men, if I hated america, I'd want McCain too. Who's more likely to continue in Bush's footsteps and make america economy implode? What's the deficit this year? 1 Trillion dollars? Maybe McCain can try and break that record.
McCain is just another Old Fat White man, he's probably got the same advisors as Bush telling him how to make huge amounts of money out of being the President.
Winning wars is bad for the economy anyway, but america has a good track record of getting into wars it can't win and that drag on for yonks with no resolution. I'll bet that's even worse for the budget. Well done america! Glad you found those elite republican guard with their WMD's.
How much longer can america go before realising it's not a superpower anymore? And when will the public realise they're in some kind of 'democratic' dictatorship?
Even if it wasn't about angry young men, if I hated america, I'd want McCain too. Who's more likely to continue in Bush's footsteps and make america economy implode? What's the deficit this year? 1 Trillion dollars? Maybe McCain can try and break that record.
McCain is just another Old Fat White man, he's probably got the same advisors as Bush telling him how to make huge amounts of money out of being the President.
Winning wars is bad for the economy anyway, but america has a good track record of getting into wars it can't win and that drag on for yonks with no resolution. I'll bet that's even worse for the budget. Well done america! Glad you found those elite republican guard with their WMD's.
How much longer can america go before realising it's not a superpower anymore? And when will the public realise they're in some kind of 'democratic' dictatorship?
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
I literally forsee civil war.
The last great non-government militia was the Nazis... american nazi'ism became stupid popular among rednecks and just general white supremacists.
The sign up there is cutesy, but think about it.
Obama is ahead in the polls... and youve seen the people supporting mccain. I caught a speech of his in which a lady in the audience said she didnt trust obama cause he was an arab (which he clearly isnt, and shouldnt matter)
They began calling obama a heretic, hating on him HARD.
If he wins, which i think he will, i think large nazi groups will reform the Confederate States of America, the stupid close minded group we fought in the first civil war.
People still fly the Confederate flag, which i do personally see as an act of nazi'ism.
I dunno, theres always the chance i could be wrong.
But im afraid of american extremists who wont tolerate a black presidancy.
I literally forsee civil war.
The last great non-government militia was the Nazis... american nazi'ism became stupid popular among rednecks and just general white supremacists.
The sign up there is cutesy, but think about it.
Obama is ahead in the polls... and youve seen the people supporting mccain. I caught a speech of his in which a lady in the audience said she didnt trust obama cause he was an arab (which he clearly isnt, and shouldnt matter)
They began calling obama a heretic, hating on him HARD.
If he wins, which i think he will, i think large nazi groups will reform the Confederate States of America, the stupid close minded group we fought in the first civil war.
People still fly the Confederate flag, which i do personally see as an act of nazi'ism.
I dunno, theres always the chance i could be wrong.
But im afraid of american extremists who wont tolerate a black presidancy.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
BRONZE Member
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: DarkenI literally forsee civil war.
If he wins, which i think he will, i think large nazi groups will reform the Confederate States of America, the stupid close minded group we fought in the first civil war.
And perhaps it will be better for the rest of us if we let them go.
Originally Posted By: DarkenI literally forsee civil war.
If he wins, which i think he will, i think large nazi groups will reform the Confederate States of America, the stupid close minded group we fought in the first civil war.
And perhaps it will be better for the rest of us if we let them go.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I don't even believe that the Republicans seriously intend to win this election. IMHO McCain is just put forth in order to have a candidate at all and cash in some support... usually they would wait for a Democrat to get the country back on track, before they scent a chance to suck it dry again...
I don't even believe that the Republicans seriously intend to win this election. IMHO McCain is just put forth in order to have a candidate at all and cash in some support... usually they would wait for a Democrat to get the country back on track, before they scent a chance to suck it dry again...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
I am afraid for turnoil.
I fear Mccain, hes a violant man with violant tendencies.
I respect his service, but war minded folk tend to continue warlike activites.
Idk that Obama will do any better, but his hearts in the right place.
Mccain would have us piss away our economy in the middle east with expensive wars and reforms, whereas Obama seems a little more willing to succeed the war and fix up out own jacked up ecomony.
I have no party affiliation, but my song says it all. F*ck John Mccain.
If the streets turn to war and turmoil, i wouldnt mind takling up arms to defend the free. I hate the idea of being a soldier, but iforsee revolution. I may want to be a part of the solution.
Just thinkin aloud here.
I am afraid for turnoil.
I fear Mccain, hes a violant man with violant tendencies.
I respect his service, but war minded folk tend to continue warlike activites.
Idk that Obama will do any better, but his hearts in the right place.
Mccain would have us piss away our economy in the middle east with expensive wars and reforms, whereas Obama seems a little more willing to succeed the war and fix up out own jacked up ecomony.
I have no party affiliation, but my song says it all. F*ck John Mccain.
If the streets turn to war and turmoil, i wouldnt mind takling up arms to defend the free. I hate the idea of being a soldier, but iforsee revolution. I may want to be a part of the solution.
Just thinkin aloud here.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
journeyman
99 posts
Location: canada
99 posts
Location: canada
Posted:
I remember right after 9/11 I thought it would be a victory for the perputrators if america got it's self into a gong show in iraq. At that time (like the day it happened) right after it hit the news that it wasn't a accident, and speculating talking heads discussed the possibility of the taliban, alqaida or iraq being involved. It's funny how hard it is to fight terrorism. It's like a chinese finger trap, the more you fight, the tighter it gets.
Consider how many people were exposed to war and destruction directly in afghanistan and iraq in 8 years. How many of those were of the age that they will potentially decide to take up the fight in their life time? People from age 0 to age 50 I suppose, maybe older. Every year that it happened. Then theirs all the ammunition it gave for the al qaida and similar organizations recruiting machines. Photo's and videos of tragedy and devestation.
Then on the western side of the coin, you have all the angry, hurt and lost people who are familys of victims, dead and wounded soldiers or respond to war with feverous hate and venom.
It's like when you have a wild fire and you try to stomp the embers out, spraying them all around and starting little fires you have to stomp out, starting more little fires.
This isn't going to end anytime soon, obama even if he is the best president ever and has amazing talents at peace makeing, isn't going to end this if he manageges to win and even stay in for two terms.
Mccain on the other hand wants to throw gas on the fire. what does fire want? more fuel. ofcourse alqaida would love to see a warhawk in presidency.
oh and darken the picture of the rednecks for obama.. I think that's countering the point your makeing about confederates being nazi's.
Quote:
People still fly the Confederate flag, which i do personally see as an act of nazi'ism. DARKEN
That's a pretty big blanket statement. Lots of people fly the confederate flag because they see it as a symbol of defiance to the northern states, and fly it with no intended connotation of racism. I personally visualize racism whenever I see it. but it's pretty far fetched to call flying the flag an act of nazism.
I remember right after 9/11 I thought it would be a victory for the perputrators if america got it's self into a gong show in iraq. At that time (like the day it happened) right after it hit the news that it wasn't a accident, and speculating talking heads discussed the possibility of the taliban, alqaida or iraq being involved. It's funny how hard it is to fight terrorism. It's like a chinese finger trap, the more you fight, the tighter it gets.
Consider how many people were exposed to war and destruction directly in afghanistan and iraq in 8 years. How many of those were of the age that they will potentially decide to take up the fight in their life time? People from age 0 to age 50 I suppose, maybe older. Every year that it happened. Then theirs all the ammunition it gave for the al qaida and similar organizations recruiting machines. Photo's and videos of tragedy and devestation.
Then on the western side of the coin, you have all the angry, hurt and lost people who are familys of victims, dead and wounded soldiers or respond to war with feverous hate and venom.
It's like when you have a wild fire and you try to stomp the embers out, spraying them all around and starting little fires you have to stomp out, starting more little fires.
This isn't going to end anytime soon, obama even if he is the best president ever and has amazing talents at peace makeing, isn't going to end this if he manageges to win and even stay in for two terms.
Mccain on the other hand wants to throw gas on the fire. what does fire want? more fuel. ofcourse alqaida would love to see a warhawk in presidency.
oh and darken the picture of the rednecks for obama.. I think that's countering the point your makeing about confederates being nazi's.
Quote:
People still fly the Confederate flag, which i do personally see as an act of nazi'ism. DARKEN
That's a pretty big blanket statement. Lots of people fly the confederate flag because they see it as a symbol of defiance to the northern states, and fly it with no intended connotation of racism. I personally visualize racism whenever I see it. but it's pretty far fetched to call flying the flag an act of nazism.
The less people know the more they believe
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
...
what an echo in here...
If you're ready to take up arms - does it really matter what you fight for? People are going to die. Personally I'm not ready to fight for anything but the personal inviolability of my family and friends. No political or philosophical issue is worth to shed blood for (IMHO)...
Boys who got exposed to war are growing up to be very angry young men, taking up arms to inflict war on boys who grow up to be very angry young men, taking up arms to inflict war...
Lets brake this cycle and take away the guns from those angry boys and give them a hug, shall we?
Waving the confederate flag as defiance to the Northern States is counter-productive. If it is a political statement - okay, that's what it is... Either you're pro-slavery and all the Southern States fought for in the civil war, or you're not... in the latter case you're just brain-dead howling for a political philosophy you don't have a grasp on. So I would agree that it's an act of Nazi'ism...
...
what an echo in here...If you're ready to take up arms - does it really matter what you fight for? People are going to die. Personally I'm not ready to fight for anything but the personal inviolability of my family and friends. No political or philosophical issue is worth to shed blood for (IMHO)...
Boys who got exposed to war are growing up to be very angry young men, taking up arms to inflict war on boys who grow up to be very angry young men, taking up arms to inflict war...
Lets brake this cycle and take away the guns from those angry boys and give them a hug, shall we?
Waving the confederate flag as defiance to the Northern States is counter-productive. If it is a political statement - okay, that's what it is... Either you're pro-slavery and all the Southern States fought for in the civil war, or you're not... in the latter case you're just brain-dead howling for a political philosophy you don't have a grasp on. So I would agree that it's an act of Nazi'ism...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
Exactly.
Im not linking the confederate flag to nazi'ism...
So allow my to correct my statement.
Whether its a confederate flag or a swastika, you are flying a symbol which directly relates to (and supports) racism. To say otherwise is daft.
Honestly, if you want unity, put aside your seperatism. Thats all im saying.
And no doubt the war is going to continue for a while...
I suppose all i mean is, id like to be a part of the solution.
Lets say the turmoil does hit the streets, and we are forced to take up arms in the name of our own families and friends... is that not similar to taking up arms in defense of ones country, so like a family? can it not be said of both a soldier and a civilian they are merely fighting to defend what they feel it is right to defend?
I would like to be a part of the solution, but until everyone drops their guns and starts hugging, ill have to side with the lesser of two evils.
Carry on.
-Darken
Exactly.
Im not linking the confederate flag to nazi'ism...
So allow my to correct my statement.
Whether its a confederate flag or a swastika, you are flying a symbol which directly relates to (and supports) racism. To say otherwise is daft.
Honestly, if you want unity, put aside your seperatism. Thats all im saying.
And no doubt the war is going to continue for a while...
I suppose all i mean is, id like to be a part of the solution.
Lets say the turmoil does hit the streets, and we are forced to take up arms in the name of our own families and friends... is that not similar to taking up arms in defense of ones country, so like a family? can it not be said of both a soldier and a civilian they are merely fighting to defend what they feel it is right to defend?
I would like to be a part of the solution, but until everyone drops their guns and starts hugging, ill have to side with the lesser of two evils.
Carry on.
-Darken
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
journeyman
99 posts
Location: canada
99 posts
Location: canada
Posted:
uh first of all, the confederate flag only symbolizes nazism when it is used by nazi's. If it's flown by KKK loving racists, it represents their beliefs, if it's flown by those who resent the north declareing war instead of holding to the constitution and ideals they signed into to get their way, then it represents that.
If it's flown by someone who thinks it's fashionable to fly it at a country concert, then it represents that.
To many the star and crescent of islam represents terror and war. Are you going to suggest that flying the star and crescent of islam is a act of terrorism or opression? What about flying the christian cross? or the swastika? https://lh6.ggpht.com/_JATY3BelNUQ/RuSSVR...trance+Area.JPG
Guess what that swastika doesn't represent nazism. Do you understand that symbols represent a variety of things? Not just what you want them to.
The civil war happened for many reasons. War and it's causes are far from as simple as you think. Just as racism, and organizations that promote it aren't as nearly as simple as you think. Please stop using nazism as a blanket terms. Lots of racist groups out their are anti nazi. KKK, skin heads, neo nazi's etc.. even fight with each other over diffrences, sometimes violently.
It's frustrating to me when people don't understand the complexity of important issues like this.
EDITED_BY: railspinner (1225552879)
uh first of all, the confederate flag only symbolizes nazism when it is used by nazi's. If it's flown by KKK loving racists, it represents their beliefs, if it's flown by those who resent the north declareing war instead of holding to the constitution and ideals they signed into to get their way, then it represents that.
If it's flown by someone who thinks it's fashionable to fly it at a country concert, then it represents that.
To many the star and crescent of islam represents terror and war. Are you going to suggest that flying the star and crescent of islam is a act of terrorism or opression? What about flying the christian cross? or the swastika? https://lh6.ggpht.com/_JATY3BelNUQ/RuSSVR...trance+Area.JPG
Guess what that swastika doesn't represent nazism. Do you understand that symbols represent a variety of things? Not just what you want them to.
The civil war happened for many reasons. War and it's causes are far from as simple as you think. Just as racism, and organizations that promote it aren't as nearly as simple as you think. Please stop using nazism as a blanket terms. Lots of racist groups out their are anti nazi. KKK, skin heads, neo nazi's etc.. even fight with each other over diffrences, sometimes violently.
It's frustrating to me when people don't understand the complexity of important issues like this.
EDITED_BY: railspinner (1225552879)
The less people know the more they believe
SILVER Member
stranger
19 posts
stranger
19 posts
Posted:
^_-, aww, I think I'm the only hippi that supports McCain. *tear*
Well, don't tear me a new one just yet, that'd be a bad first impression - however, anyone care for a debate on ideas? :-D
Sure, McCain's whole life has been war - but if any of you are familiar with his past, he was the rapscallion that was always getting into trouble and goofing off. That leads me to believe to things, A - he has carefree hippi blood deep in his old man physique, and two he doesn't have much of an agenda - which is good. Bush was a tool. Even when he was young he was a tool - he had everyone taking care of him so he could mess up and get away with it.
When I look at Obama, I see a guy who is psychologically definable as a narcissist in the most definable sense. Don't get me wrong, I still think the guy is a cool mofo and most likely would probably be a great friend of his had we ever met. However, his arguments are specifically geared at being likable, and, because of that, he has not had to put any effort into defending actual questions. He, by my studies, has defined a socialistic community - where college students get their tuition for school paid if they participate in social organization events (IE soup kitchens and clinics), where taxes are greater in percentage for higher incomes and less for lower incomes (even though he still hasn't maintained one number), and it would almost seem as if currently the government is buying up loans that maintain the homes and businesses of America. That sort of sounds like it's no longer a competitive market but the government alone that is in control of many of these things.
Off that subject and onto economy I always thought that in a scientific experiment you would prove a change is successful by observing a microcosmic implementation of the separate variables involved. They're both State senators I believe, so lets look at their states and the differences that are currently visable? For example, Illinois economy and Illinois living standards? Once you see that, Arizona? Would these not be decent examples of work and difference in economic ethics?
I've always claimed to the moderate stance. I believe that a government should be moderate in stance as well, true checks and balances apply when the people who control the checks, and the people who control the balances aren't all aligned to the same idealism. I think these are just a few things to look at when considering candidacy. Though one thing is certainly true - Obama is a balla, and McCain doesn't die. McCain actually survived his plane getting hit with a missle on a cruiser deck when everyone around him got decimated. Obama is so far my current hero when it comes to social engineering, as he has managed to beat just about anything and everything that would ruin others. The man is a genius - no doubts.
My argument is that for a country to be free and continue to be free, we should simply not depend on politicians to make us free, because that's some backwards logic. We're free because we stand on our own - we're free because despite all odds we do what we do. Especially this community! A community that willingly puts itself in harms way simply to free up their ability to express themselves and be what we humanly can be.
I like having the ability to do what I want to do knowing full well what can come of it. If we elect Obama, I don't believe the future would be as clear as far as what we get from what we do.
Rebuttals? :-D
^_-, aww, I think I'm the only hippi that supports McCain. *tear*
Well, don't tear me a new one just yet, that'd be a bad first impression - however, anyone care for a debate on ideas? :-D
Sure, McCain's whole life has been war - but if any of you are familiar with his past, he was the rapscallion that was always getting into trouble and goofing off. That leads me to believe to things, A - he has carefree hippi blood deep in his old man physique, and two he doesn't have much of an agenda - which is good. Bush was a tool. Even when he was young he was a tool - he had everyone taking care of him so he could mess up and get away with it.
When I look at Obama, I see a guy who is psychologically definable as a narcissist in the most definable sense. Don't get me wrong, I still think the guy is a cool mofo and most likely would probably be a great friend of his had we ever met. However, his arguments are specifically geared at being likable, and, because of that, he has not had to put any effort into defending actual questions. He, by my studies, has defined a socialistic community - where college students get their tuition for school paid if they participate in social organization events (IE soup kitchens and clinics), where taxes are greater in percentage for higher incomes and less for lower incomes (even though he still hasn't maintained one number), and it would almost seem as if currently the government is buying up loans that maintain the homes and businesses of America. That sort of sounds like it's no longer a competitive market but the government alone that is in control of many of these things.
Off that subject and onto economy I always thought that in a scientific experiment you would prove a change is successful by observing a microcosmic implementation of the separate variables involved. They're both State senators I believe, so lets look at their states and the differences that are currently visable? For example, Illinois economy and Illinois living standards? Once you see that, Arizona? Would these not be decent examples of work and difference in economic ethics?
I've always claimed to the moderate stance. I believe that a government should be moderate in stance as well, true checks and balances apply when the people who control the checks, and the people who control the balances aren't all aligned to the same idealism. I think these are just a few things to look at when considering candidacy. Though one thing is certainly true - Obama is a balla, and McCain doesn't die. McCain actually survived his plane getting hit with a missle on a cruiser deck when everyone around him got decimated. Obama is so far my current hero when it comes to social engineering, as he has managed to beat just about anything and everything that would ruin others. The man is a genius - no doubts.
My argument is that for a country to be free and continue to be free, we should simply not depend on politicians to make us free, because that's some backwards logic. We're free because we stand on our own - we're free because despite all odds we do what we do. Especially this community! A community that willingly puts itself in harms way simply to free up their ability to express themselves and be what we humanly can be.
I like having the ability to do what I want to do knowing full well what can come of it. If we elect Obama, I don't believe the future would be as clear as far as what we get from what we do.
Rebuttals? :-D
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
That was the most level headed response possible, rather than attacking me for my ideals, and i thank you.
Yes, i understand perfectly that the swastika can mean other things.
I dont know what the word is for semantics is when it relates to symbols... you dance around the issue by attacking my personal views and my use of the word 'nazi'sm'
For the second time, it was not my intent to lump all the racists and neo nazis together under the confederate flag.
The fact of the fact is:
The confederate flag represents a set of ideals which relate to racism. Its entire creation and coming about was based on a war, the side under the confederate flag were rebelling against people who thought that everyone should be equal.
Flying a confederate flag without holding these beliefs... while i am FULLY AWARE that it occurs, i think its stupid.
Why on earth would you represent a faction if you do not stand for its ideals?
Thats like me wearin a swazi cause i think its a cool symbol. Its retarded, and rather than try to prove that the symbol is harmless, and argue frustratedly against its use as a nazi symbol, i would pursue something more unified to endorse, something with less history of lynching people who were different from them.
My personal beliefs, attack them if you will.
And as for my use of nazi, it will continue, as i dont know a better word for ignorant, prejudiced self righteous people.
Personally, i respect all views on the issue, and i wont go into throwing insults or anything, but i do believe you are a little to high up on your horse there.
I fail to grasp the complexity of the situation?
My friend, your taking a much to complicated view of things.
Fact is, politicians lie.
Constantly.
Its a system in which we are merely choosing who will lie to us more pleasingly.
Mccain or Obama, we are at war and we are poor and times are hard.
Republicans and democrats, nazis and gangs, countries, confederates or otherwise... we fly these flags that all represent ways to seperate ourselves from our fellow man.
All i see, through the eyes of an ignorant little 18 year old, is pain. Pain of my fellow man, in Iraq, in my homeland.
Maybe i do fail to grasp the grand complexities of politics and flag flying, but my ignorant little self only wishes for togetherness.
If only we could tolerate each other and just... exist.
Rather, we have to fly our flags, and defend our right to fly them, and kill and die and waste human existance.
I may not have the most respected view in politics, but here goes.
I am the disgruntled youth of america, and im tired of all this nonsense. I wish only for the organized cooperation of all people, like minded or otherwise.
The people out there who outwardly represent causes that would inhibit my wish... who wish their brothers harm, who fly the flags of those who wish their brothers harm...
They are my enemies. I find THEM to be ignorant.
I hold no love for someone who flies a confederate flag or a swastika, despite their potential other meanings. You know full well what they are associated with, dont get behind them then argue semantics about why they are ok.
End of story.
When i have more time, ill read up on the issues a bit, so ill have a little more political knowledge under my belt before i rebut to you shaolin, i dont feel im knowledgable enough to debate you just yet.
-Darken
That was the most level headed response possible, rather than attacking me for my ideals, and i thank you.
Yes, i understand perfectly that the swastika can mean other things.
I dont know what the word is for semantics is when it relates to symbols... you dance around the issue by attacking my personal views and my use of the word 'nazi'sm'
For the second time, it was not my intent to lump all the racists and neo nazis together under the confederate flag.
The fact of the fact is:
The confederate flag represents a set of ideals which relate to racism. Its entire creation and coming about was based on a war, the side under the confederate flag were rebelling against people who thought that everyone should be equal.
Flying a confederate flag without holding these beliefs... while i am FULLY AWARE that it occurs, i think its stupid.
Why on earth would you represent a faction if you do not stand for its ideals?
Thats like me wearin a swazi cause i think its a cool symbol. Its retarded, and rather than try to prove that the symbol is harmless, and argue frustratedly against its use as a nazi symbol, i would pursue something more unified to endorse, something with less history of lynching people who were different from them.
My personal beliefs, attack them if you will.
And as for my use of nazi, it will continue, as i dont know a better word for ignorant, prejudiced self righteous people.
Personally, i respect all views on the issue, and i wont go into throwing insults or anything, but i do believe you are a little to high up on your horse there.
I fail to grasp the complexity of the situation?
My friend, your taking a much to complicated view of things.
Fact is, politicians lie.
Constantly.
Its a system in which we are merely choosing who will lie to us more pleasingly.
Mccain or Obama, we are at war and we are poor and times are hard.
Republicans and democrats, nazis and gangs, countries, confederates or otherwise... we fly these flags that all represent ways to seperate ourselves from our fellow man.
All i see, through the eyes of an ignorant little 18 year old, is pain. Pain of my fellow man, in Iraq, in my homeland.
Maybe i do fail to grasp the grand complexities of politics and flag flying, but my ignorant little self only wishes for togetherness.
If only we could tolerate each other and just... exist.
Rather, we have to fly our flags, and defend our right to fly them, and kill and die and waste human existance.
I may not have the most respected view in politics, but here goes.
I am the disgruntled youth of america, and im tired of all this nonsense. I wish only for the organized cooperation of all people, like minded or otherwise.
The people out there who outwardly represent causes that would inhibit my wish... who wish their brothers harm, who fly the flags of those who wish their brothers harm...
They are my enemies. I find THEM to be ignorant.
I hold no love for someone who flies a confederate flag or a swastika, despite their potential other meanings. You know full well what they are associated with, dont get behind them then argue semantics about why they are ok.
End of story.
When i have more time, ill read up on the issues a bit, so ill have a little more political knowledge under my belt before i rebut to you shaolin, i dont feel im knowledgable enough to debate you just yet.
-Darken
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
journeyman
99 posts
Location: canada
99 posts
Location: canada
Posted:
darken it's easier to declare everyone your enemy and then dismiss them as such then to learn who the are, what they believe in, why and how they came to believe that.
I agree it's stupid to fly confederate flags, personally I think flags in general are kind of stupid. But to call anyone who has a confederate flag in their yard or on the bumper of their car a nazi, or kkk or racist is a bit much. I understand you are using the word losely, but I don't. I spent a huge part of my life living on the streets in canada and ive literally been under the boot soles of skin heads. Ingrained in me from these experiences is a natural hatred of skin heads and neo nazi's. I do consider them my enemy, they have brutalized me and my friends, tried to kill some of my friends. Caused permament injuries because of silly hatred. To see people throw the term around loosely bothers me. Because in my eyes, many of the people you are slinging it at do not deserve such a loathing label.
darken it's easier to declare everyone your enemy and then dismiss them as such then to learn who the are, what they believe in, why and how they came to believe that.
I agree it's stupid to fly confederate flags, personally I think flags in general are kind of stupid. But to call anyone who has a confederate flag in their yard or on the bumper of their car a nazi, or kkk or racist is a bit much. I understand you are using the word losely, but I don't. I spent a huge part of my life living on the streets in canada and ive literally been under the boot soles of skin heads. Ingrained in me from these experiences is a natural hatred of skin heads and neo nazi's. I do consider them my enemy, they have brutalized me and my friends, tried to kill some of my friends. Caused permament injuries because of silly hatred. To see people throw the term around loosely bothers me. Because in my eyes, many of the people you are slinging it at do not deserve such a loathing label.
The less people know the more they believe
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
I can respect that.
However, i see it SLIGHTLY differently.
See, i completely despise the nazis, neo nazis, kk, whatever you want to call them. You clearly share that view.
I however go as far as to include any group willing to hide behind that symbol. If you rally behind the confederate flag, it does not matter if you are actively racist.
If you support the symbol, you are promoting a tradition of hatred, and thusly, you are a less active 'nazi'
And i have to point out the sheer insanity of your previous statement...
Originally Posted By: railspinner
Guess what that swastika doesn't represent nazism. Do you understand that symbols represent a variety of things? Not just what you want them to.
To the best of my recollection, Hitler and the entire nazi party rallied behind the swastika. It was on armbands, flags, plaques.
It is in every possible way a representation of the nazi party, and the years of hatred and loathesome behavior that go with it.
Just because it has other meanings will not take away from the fact that it is the standing symbol of an ancient breed of hate mongers.
In short, there is no 'right' way to fly a swastika, or a confederate flag even. To do so is to support previous prejudices , and while it isnt directly as despicable as acting upon these feelings of prejudice, i call it in the ballpark.
In short, if you hide behind the aforementioned symbols, you are in fact every bit as evil as a nazi, or too stupid to find something productive to rally behind.
Quote:darken it's easier to declare everyone your enemy and then dismiss them as such then to learn who the are, what they believe in, why and how they came to believe that.
I have, believe it or not, dealt with and spoken to many a nazi, racist, white supremacist, whatever you want me to call them, please dont call my terminology into question.
I feel that had i not approached this level headedly and open mindedly, i would be hating something based on pre-dispositions, which would make me the very thing i despise.
I have introduced myself just as politely to each, as i would introduce myself to anyone. I have discussed the topics level headedly and politely many a time, with many seperate people.
And i have tried to understand their logic, and i feel i do.
Some of them were very intelligent, some not so much, but when asked this question, they all fell short of intelligent words:
Why do you hate black people/jews?
One replied immediately with 'they have a deathstar' (not kidding)
And i dismissed that as stupidity.
Some replied with other daft things, all stupid.
And what it all came down to, in every instance, was a family history of nazism or white supremacy.
My dad always hated them, my family always hated them.
They are taking on the hatred of their forefathers, assuming a position in the next generation of hatred and ignorance.
Does this not make them nazis?
They carry on the very ignorance that keeps us seperated.
I believe in the good of the many, the nazis believe in the good of the nazis.
In this conflict, as with any, i feel bad that i must resort to these thoughts. But the inevitable solution to violence is violence.. we know it, we see it, its human nature.
Our small tiffs of violence worldwide kill innocent people for political ends, where i would have people killed for beliefs involving the killing of others. It is a grand hypocrisy, but there it is.
I wish for peace, and thusly, wish for the death of all who would oppose peace. And yes, peace on my terms.
In essence, my claims have no more validity than that of the nazis or any other nation or group. But i hold firm to my beliefs, because in my heart i believe they are true.
And while it is still closed minded and ignorant to believe in the destruction of that which opposes me
I must as always side with the lesser of two evils.
I can respect that.
However, i see it SLIGHTLY differently.
See, i completely despise the nazis, neo nazis, kk, whatever you want to call them. You clearly share that view.
I however go as far as to include any group willing to hide behind that symbol. If you rally behind the confederate flag, it does not matter if you are actively racist.
If you support the symbol, you are promoting a tradition of hatred, and thusly, you are a less active 'nazi'
And i have to point out the sheer insanity of your previous statement...
Originally Posted By: railspinner
Guess what that swastika doesn't represent nazism. Do you understand that symbols represent a variety of things? Not just what you want them to.
To the best of my recollection, Hitler and the entire nazi party rallied behind the swastika. It was on armbands, flags, plaques.
It is in every possible way a representation of the nazi party, and the years of hatred and loathesome behavior that go with it.
Just because it has other meanings will not take away from the fact that it is the standing symbol of an ancient breed of hate mongers.
In short, there is no 'right' way to fly a swastika, or a confederate flag even. To do so is to support previous prejudices , and while it isnt directly as despicable as acting upon these feelings of prejudice, i call it in the ballpark.
In short, if you hide behind the aforementioned symbols, you are in fact every bit as evil as a nazi, or too stupid to find something productive to rally behind.
Quote:darken it's easier to declare everyone your enemy and then dismiss them as such then to learn who the are, what they believe in, why and how they came to believe that.
I have, believe it or not, dealt with and spoken to many a nazi, racist, white supremacist, whatever you want me to call them, please dont call my terminology into question.
I feel that had i not approached this level headedly and open mindedly, i would be hating something based on pre-dispositions, which would make me the very thing i despise.
I have introduced myself just as politely to each, as i would introduce myself to anyone. I have discussed the topics level headedly and politely many a time, with many seperate people.
And i have tried to understand their logic, and i feel i do.
Some of them were very intelligent, some not so much, but when asked this question, they all fell short of intelligent words:
Why do you hate black people/jews?
One replied immediately with 'they have a deathstar' (not kidding)
And i dismissed that as stupidity.
Some replied with other daft things, all stupid.
And what it all came down to, in every instance, was a family history of nazism or white supremacy.
My dad always hated them, my family always hated them.
They are taking on the hatred of their forefathers, assuming a position in the next generation of hatred and ignorance.
Does this not make them nazis?
They carry on the very ignorance that keeps us seperated.
I believe in the good of the many, the nazis believe in the good of the nazis.
In this conflict, as with any, i feel bad that i must resort to these thoughts. But the inevitable solution to violence is violence.. we know it, we see it, its human nature.
Our small tiffs of violence worldwide kill innocent people for political ends, where i would have people killed for beliefs involving the killing of others. It is a grand hypocrisy, but there it is.
I wish for peace, and thusly, wish for the death of all who would oppose peace. And yes, peace on my terms.
In essence, my claims have no more validity than that of the nazis or any other nation or group. But i hold firm to my beliefs, because in my heart i believe they are true.
And while it is still closed minded and ignorant to believe in the destruction of that which opposes me
I must as always side with the lesser of two evils.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
SILVER Member
stranger
19 posts
stranger
19 posts
Posted:
Hahah, I've been reading these while listening to the "Flobots" It's a rather interesting effect.
On the civil war thing, I think what we need to understand that it wasn't exactly the concepts behind it that caused the war. Simply the "change" of policy that caused so much friction. The reasoning behind this was based on economy. If you think about it, the northern states were trade states, not production states. So the to abolish slavery to them meant, they lost some house keepers. In the southern states slavery was a huge reason that crop productions were cheap and constant. Without slavery America wouldn't have had such a strong start. Of course, it is not a concept of freedom - and needed to be abolished. The process of this meant that many of the farmers which resided in the southern states suddenly had to find a way to pay for labor, which completely changed their station in life, because labor isn't cheap :-p. With such a huge shift in life and station there was turmoil. The turmoil instigated the defiance of the abolishment - then war. The unfortunate thing is is that the scapegoat and victim in this scenario were the slaves themselves. The southerners pushed their anger on them because in a shortsighted sense that an dependent, abusive husband has with a wife that leaves him is that she is responsible for his lacking ability to his stable life - when in fact it was her doing that he was able to enjoy the stable life to begin with.
So to summarize, it wasn't racism that caused the civil war, but a change in lifestyle that affected some more than others - leading to a split nation, which lead to turmoil in the more effected area, which lead to the need to blame - leading to inflamed racism from and since that era.
In my opinion
Hahah, I've been reading these while listening to the "Flobots" It's a rather interesting effect.
On the civil war thing, I think what we need to understand that it wasn't exactly the concepts behind it that caused the war. Simply the "change" of policy that caused so much friction. The reasoning behind this was based on economy. If you think about it, the northern states were trade states, not production states. So the to abolish slavery to them meant, they lost some house keepers. In the southern states slavery was a huge reason that crop productions were cheap and constant. Without slavery America wouldn't have had such a strong start. Of course, it is not a concept of freedom - and needed to be abolished. The process of this meant that many of the farmers which resided in the southern states suddenly had to find a way to pay for labor, which completely changed their station in life, because labor isn't cheap :-p. With such a huge shift in life and station there was turmoil. The turmoil instigated the defiance of the abolishment - then war. The unfortunate thing is is that the scapegoat and victim in this scenario were the slaves themselves. The southerners pushed their anger on them because in a shortsighted sense that an dependent, abusive husband has with a wife that leaves him is that she is responsible for his lacking ability to his stable life - when in fact it was her doing that he was able to enjoy the stable life to begin with.
So to summarize, it wasn't racism that caused the civil war, but a change in lifestyle that affected some more than others - leading to a split nation, which lead to turmoil in the more effected area, which lead to the need to blame - leading to inflamed racism from and since that era.
In my opinion
Avatar of the Dancing Fire
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
59 posts
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posted:
Very logical, i hadnt looked at it that way.
I can understand the reasoning behind the war, but cmon.
The people flying southerner flags never farmed or owned a slave a day in their lives.
It only furthers my point that they are carrying on the traditions of their forefathers. While it may not always be accompanied with racism, can it not be said that, maybe they should just let it go?
The south lost, for a reason. I can understand the southerners of the time being a little sore, no doubt.
But captain redneck and his truck never knew the toils of the old world, only the lessons and teachings of his predecessors.
They have no reason to fly such a flag other than to hold up a dying tradition... what is it theyre trying to say?
What dramatic statement is it?
If they ARENT racist, cant they just, you know, move on>?
Idk. I hope im not being arrogant.
I do like seeing things from a different point of view though, thank you mate.
Very logical, i hadnt looked at it that way.
I can understand the reasoning behind the war, but cmon.
The people flying southerner flags never farmed or owned a slave a day in their lives.
It only furthers my point that they are carrying on the traditions of their forefathers. While it may not always be accompanied with racism, can it not be said that, maybe they should just let it go?
The south lost, for a reason. I can understand the southerners of the time being a little sore, no doubt.
But captain redneck and his truck never knew the toils of the old world, only the lessons and teachings of his predecessors.
They have no reason to fly such a flag other than to hold up a dying tradition... what is it theyre trying to say?
What dramatic statement is it?
If they ARENT racist, cant they just, you know, move on>?
Idk. I hope im not being arrogant.
I do like seeing things from a different point of view though, thank you mate.
"if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."
-Golden Rule
"F*ck you. I spin fire."
-Darkens 3rd law
SILVER Member
stranger
19 posts
stranger
19 posts
Posted:
No, I support the logic that racism is pushed forth through generations. It's territorial. As many of those families that were exposed to the transitional era had to continue their lives farming it makes sense that the kids grew up learning that trade. Unlike many urban and suburban jobs rural farming areas are 'rural farming areas' because the land that it takes is expansive. Most of the generations from before continued in the same line of work because it is a family trade, one that encompasses most of a town. This allows that the racist logic would be transferred down the lines in rural areas for the beginning of many of their lives, not because logic for it is strong, but because logic against it is weak. As you mentioned yourself the argument for their hatred, even from intelligent people, is highly lacking. Those in the city who have these emotions are usually those who moved into the city or are children of people who moved from similar country areas.
Much less, and usually it will water down as time goes by where they are in a place where their reason is constantly contended successfully.
Oddly enough you could describe today's racism as more of a tradition than anything.
As far as the confederate flag, it's more of a pride thing. Though many times it will be the rednecks baring the flag itself, the concept should be recognized as a rival school competition - The North won and the South lost, the war happened once, and it, hopefully, will not ever happen again - but reality stands that the south lost. So, until there is another war- as a territorial concept- everyone, including myself, has to accept the fact that 100s of years ago the Northern states kicked the *$%# out of the South. If there WAS another war, I think that wouldn't be the case, due to all the up tight scrawny cats that are coming from the north But yeah that's the core thought to that -- in my opinion :-D
No, I support the logic that racism is pushed forth through generations. It's territorial. As many of those families that were exposed to the transitional era had to continue their lives farming it makes sense that the kids grew up learning that trade. Unlike many urban and suburban jobs rural farming areas are 'rural farming areas' because the land that it takes is expansive. Most of the generations from before continued in the same line of work because it is a family trade, one that encompasses most of a town. This allows that the racist logic would be transferred down the lines in rural areas for the beginning of many of their lives, not because logic for it is strong, but because logic against it is weak. As you mentioned yourself the argument for their hatred, even from intelligent people, is highly lacking. Those in the city who have these emotions are usually those who moved into the city or are children of people who moved from similar country areas.
Much less, and usually it will water down as time goes by where they are in a place where their reason is constantly contended successfully.
Oddly enough you could describe today's racism as more of a tradition than anything.
As far as the confederate flag, it's more of a pride thing. Though many times it will be the rednecks baring the flag itself, the concept should be recognized as a rival school competition - The North won and the South lost, the war happened once, and it, hopefully, will not ever happen again - but reality stands that the south lost. So, until there is another war- as a territorial concept- everyone, including myself, has to accept the fact that 100s of years ago the Northern states kicked the *$%# out of the South. If there WAS another war, I think that wouldn't be the case, due to all the up tight scrawny cats that are coming from the north
But yeah that's the core thought to that -- in my opinion :-D BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCRPpJ-IC0c
fire and flow ===burning dan gets political...
Yes, we can!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCRPpJ-IC0c
fire and flow ===burning dan gets political...
Yes, we can!!!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
HEy Dan! Fantastic to see him spin! The political references go slightly over my head as I have been barely been following the US election but hey, Dan!! Great video and great way to put a message of hope across.
HEy Dan! Fantastic to see him spin! The political references go slightly over my head as I have been barely been following the US election but hey, Dan!! Great video and great way to put a message of hope across.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
oops - just swinging by to correct my statement above about the confederate flag. Actually it's not as Nazi as I initially thought it'd be - just because I like strawberries doesn't mean I got to eat the whole Bush, right? Same applies to the southern states. If - for some reason I really like what they stand for (and that does not necessarily include racism and the KKK) I may put the flag on my car or motorbike. I should be able to do so without receiving intolerant and reverse racist remarks...
Just as much as the Swastika is NOT exclusively a Nazi symbol - it's far far errm, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar older than the NSDAP (about 2900 years that is) and stands for something quite nice:
Originally Posted By: WikiThe word swastika is derived from the Sanskrit word svastik, meaning any lucky or auspicious object, and in particular a mark made on persons and things to denote good luck. It is composed of su-, meaning "good, well" and asti, a verbal abstract to the root as "to be" (cognate with the Romance copula, coming ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root *h1es-); svasti thus means "well-being." The suffix -ka intensifies the verbal meaning or confers the sense of 'beneficial', and svastika might thus be translated literally as "that which is associated with well-being," corresponding to "lucky charm" or "thing that is auspicious."[1] The word first appears in the Classical Sanskrit in the Ramayana and Mahabharata epics.
That's why I thought I had to revise my statement and what I thought was necessary to add here....
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1225645054)
oops - just swinging by to correct my statement above about the confederate flag. Actually it's not as Nazi as I initially thought it'd be - just because I like strawberries doesn't mean I got to eat the whole Bush, right? Same applies to the southern states. If - for some reason I really like what they stand for (and that does not necessarily include racism and the KKK) I may put the flag on my car or motorbike. I should be able to do so without receiving intolerant and reverse racist remarks...
Just as much as the Swastika is NOT exclusively a Nazi symbol - it's far far errm, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar older than the NSDAP (about 2900 years that is) and stands for something quite nice:
Originally Posted By: WikiThe word swastika is derived from the Sanskrit word svastik, meaning any lucky or auspicious object, and in particular a mark made on persons and things to denote good luck. It is composed of su-, meaning "good, well" and asti, a verbal abstract to the root as "to be" (cognate with the Romance copula, coming ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root *h1es-); svasti thus means "well-being." The suffix -ka intensifies the verbal meaning or confers the sense of 'beneficial', and svastika might thus be translated literally as "that which is associated with well-being," corresponding to "lucky charm" or "thing that is auspicious."[1] The word first appears in the Classical Sanskrit in the Ramayana and Mahabharata epics.
That's why I thought I had to revise my statement and what I thought was necessary to add here....
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1225645054)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
The South doesn't stand for racists and KKK either. That is a seriously antiquated notion and I find it sad people still hold onto it.
Biggots and racists are found *everywhere*. There are just as many rebel flags here in the North as in the South when you drive through. And Tom, just because there is a nice right up of it somewhere doesn't mean that the people who brandish it actually understand what it means. The swastika is proof of that.
The nations largest neo-Nazi movement is actually in Washington D.C. itself. The next? Pennsylvania has the largest and fastest growing groups.
And then there's the Black Panthers. The black version of the KKK. Everyone is concerned what the KKK will do if Obama wins. Any thoughts on the unrest which will be caused if he doesn't? Do we remember the LA Riots after the whole Rodney King thing?
Obama has already had attempts on his life. There is no reason to believe it won't continue. 4 were arrested for plotting only last week.
I do not believe it will errupt into a civil war. Civil discontent, which is already happening, but the term Civil War conjures images of people brandishing arms in the streets and I just, I guess, have faith that we are beyond that these days. I think that the possibility of rioting in major cities and back-hoe towns is completely feesible. I do not believe out and out war.
The phrase "violence begets violence" comes to mind.
We are voting of the evils, as always.
McCain represents status quo, which hasn't worked for 8 years. He says to forge ahead otherwise everything of the past 8 years is for naught. Maybe.
Obama preaches change with very little practice to back it up.
Either way, the current deficit ($458 billion) will grow.
Either way, discontent will be huge.
Either way, this is a huge hole to get out of.
Personally I am voting for the person who looks more at the problems in country rather than those out of. I would like a president who remembers he has a country to head up rather than a war to wage.
The South doesn't stand for racists and KKK either. That is a seriously antiquated notion and I find it sad people still hold onto it.
Biggots and racists are found *everywhere*. There are just as many rebel flags here in the North as in the South when you drive through. And Tom, just because there is a nice right up of it somewhere doesn't mean that the people who brandish it actually understand what it means. The swastika is proof of that.
The nations largest neo-Nazi movement is actually in Washington D.C. itself. The next? Pennsylvania has the largest and fastest growing groups.
And then there's the Black Panthers. The black version of the KKK. Everyone is concerned what the KKK will do if Obama wins. Any thoughts on the unrest which will be caused if he doesn't? Do we remember the LA Riots after the whole Rodney King thing?
Obama has already had attempts on his life. There is no reason to believe it won't continue. 4 were arrested for plotting only last week.
I do not believe it will errupt into a civil war. Civil discontent, which is already happening, but the term Civil War conjures images of people brandishing arms in the streets and I just, I guess, have faith that we are beyond that these days. I think that the possibility of rioting in major cities and back-hoe towns is completely feesible. I do not believe out and out war.
The phrase "violence begets violence" comes to mind.
We are voting of the evils, as always.
McCain represents status quo, which hasn't worked for 8 years. He says to forge ahead otherwise everything of the past 8 years is for naught. Maybe.
Obama preaches change with very little practice to back it up.
Either way, the current deficit ($458 billion) will grow.
Either way, discontent will be huge.
Either way, this is a huge hole to get out of.
Personally I am voting for the person who looks more at the problems in country rather than those out of. I would like a president who remembers he has a country to head up rather than a war to wage.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
stranger
19 posts
stranger
19 posts
Posted:
Unfortunately, the "war waging" guy is the only one who knows the real logic to making jobs for a free standing country. In all seriousness Obama's ideas depict pure socialist ideals in which the government is responsible for keeping track of more. The concept of the government paying for college tuition for those who volunteer at social organization locations (IE soup kitchens and shelters and clinics) is a very very SUPER HUGE indication of socialistic life. I know because I AM a socialist!
The thought "It takes one to know one" comes to mind
Also, yeah, there will be riots one way or another, the reason I believe civil war - "out and out war" - is possible if Obama wins is because Obama (as he stated today even) wants to eliminate parties, eliminate competition of government. Want's to unite America under one idea. These words sound pretty when he says it. But the only way to simple merge people is to use one to surpress another. I am not trying to induct claims, I am using what he says and staying within the parameters of his own spoken agenda.
And the idea that McCain supports Bush's old policies? That's seriously laughable - he did vote with him 90% of the time. However, what was his alternative? Vote against his party and later on not get the possibility of being president? When someone wants to take control of a party, be a manager or even simply rise in status - the trick to do it is "people pleasing".
Simple tactic which seems to be working.
People want change? Obama professes change - funny thing is everyone wants their own change, and Obama wants HIS change. So everyone holding their own little "Change we need" sign is with their own ideas as to what change they want. How can one logically believe that Obama will satisfy their idea of change? One person may be pro-choice and pro-gunrights, another may be pro-life but wants healthcare they can afford - patterns like this. On top of that All the little things put together are such a huge sum of money that the "government guarantees it will provide!" bam taxes. back on the college concept he puts forth - free services provided by soup kitchens clinics and other things paid for by taxes. College kids tuitions? Taxes. College kids volunteering are happy. But then... how many can volunteer? If that isn't the problem then how much will be spent on the tuitions? More to match the actual cost is more for taxes. Less because government works out a deal means lowered income for professors and school upkeeps. Who takes the losses? Many concepts that are never brought up.
>.> sorry, coffee. Rebuttals? :-D
Unfortunately, the "war waging" guy is the only one who knows the real logic to making jobs for a free standing country. In all seriousness Obama's ideas depict pure socialist ideals in which the government is responsible for keeping track of more. The concept of the government paying for college tuition for those who volunteer at social organization locations (IE soup kitchens and shelters and clinics) is a very very SUPER HUGE indication of socialistic life. I know because I AM a socialist!
The thought "It takes one to know one" comes to mind
Also, yeah, there will be riots one way or another, the reason I believe civil war - "out and out war" - is possible if Obama wins is because Obama (as he stated today even) wants to eliminate parties, eliminate competition of government. Want's to unite America under one idea. These words sound pretty when he says it. But the only way to simple merge people is to use one to surpress another. I am not trying to induct claims, I am using what he says and staying within the parameters of his own spoken agenda.
And the idea that McCain supports Bush's old policies? That's seriously laughable - he did vote with him 90% of the time. However, what was his alternative? Vote against his party and later on not get the possibility of being president? When someone wants to take control of a party, be a manager or even simply rise in status - the trick to do it is "people pleasing".
Simple tactic which seems to be working.
People want change? Obama professes change - funny thing is everyone wants their own change, and Obama wants HIS change. So everyone holding their own little "Change we need" sign is with their own ideas as to what change they want. How can one logically believe that Obama will satisfy their idea of change? One person may be pro-choice and pro-gunrights, another may be pro-life but wants healthcare they can afford - patterns like this. On top of that All the little things put together are such a huge sum of money that the "government guarantees it will provide!" bam taxes. back on the college concept he puts forth - free services provided by soup kitchens clinics and other things paid for by taxes. College kids tuitions? Taxes. College kids volunteering are happy. But then... how many can volunteer? If that isn't the problem then how much will be spent on the tuitions? More to match the actual cost is more for taxes. Less because government works out a deal means lowered income for professors and school upkeeps. Who takes the losses? Many concepts that are never brought up.
>.> sorry, coffee. Rebuttals? :-D
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Ok...this is getting way weird
Shaolinpoi...you're self identifying as a socialist, yet opposing socialistic values. What is it are you a "socialist" or a "capitalist" ?
What type of a society would you rather live in one that spends it's tax dollars on educating it's population and providing universal healthcare, or one that leaves it's citizens to their own devices and spends all those tax dollars supporting the military and it's war on pretty much everything ?
So...4 grand a year for students, or 12 billion a month for the war in Iraq.
What's McCain's exit strategy ? As far as I can tell he's on the 10 000 year plan.
Believe me...you'll be just as "free" with socialized tuition and universal health care as you would without.
Gun sales are up for October, just like they are every time there's an impending democrat government.
Ok...this is getting way weird
Shaolinpoi...you're self identifying as a socialist, yet opposing socialistic values. What is it are you a "socialist" or a "capitalist" ?
What type of a society would you rather live in one that spends it's tax dollars on educating it's population and providing universal healthcare, or one that leaves it's citizens to their own devices and spends all those tax dollars supporting the military and it's war on pretty much everything ?
So...4 grand a year for students, or 12 billion a month for the war in Iraq.
What's McCain's exit strategy ? As far as I can tell he's on the 10 000 year plan.
Believe me...you'll be just as "free" with socialized tuition and universal health care as you would without.
Gun sales are up for October, just like they are every time there's an impending democrat government.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I 100% agree with Stout. Thank you for saying it better than I could.
However, I also want to remind you that gun sales *always* go up in October. Gun season for deer starts soon, plus there is turkey season, pheasant season, etc.
There are more gun shows during October and alot more prep for the seasons. The timing is merely coincidental, as proven by the fact that the sales are up this time of year, even when there isn't an election.
My dad just bought two..it's how I know
EDITED_BY: Pele (1225734290)
I 100% agree with Stout. Thank you for saying it better than I could.
However, I also want to remind you that gun sales *always* go up in October. Gun season for deer starts soon, plus there is turkey season, pheasant season, etc.
There are more gun shows during October and alot more prep for the seasons. The timing is merely coincidental, as proven by the fact that the sales are up this time of year, even when there isn't an election.
My dad just bought two..it's how I know
EDITED_BY: Pele (1225734290)
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
stranger
19 posts
stranger
19 posts
Posted:
Hahaha that rocked. I wrote a paper on socialism in the 7th grade. Defining the "Utopian Government" as a socialist community living under capitalistic possibility. IE for a small community to socially co-exist yet be able to produce a material or a trade then have it sold in the overhead capitalistic existence between other small socialistic communities. There was a lot of detail in it, but specifically, to relate it to America - it isn't a possible venture. The reasoning goes like this:
When you look at America, you'll see that every business exists openly and exposed in public as much as possible. Our open market policy (Allowing at most oligopolies to form) has kept our country run through competition. Every aspect of what we do is encouraged through competition, be it the medical field, education, military and even luxury. Competition is a drive that cannot die, because there is always someone out there trying to do better than you, and it's human nature to be competitive - to be the best! Socialism on a grand scale ( with no capitalistic advantage) would act like a battery. Yeah, there would be the initial boost when it was charged, but over time the battery will slowly die. What this means, is if the government controls the tuition (by the way, that's 4,000 X every college student that squeezes his/her ass into a social organization center + ((all of the materials the center requires + the center's upkeep) X All of the centers) That's the equation we're looking at, not just 4,000...) and it controls the cost of running the centers, that money comes from taxes, taxes that Obama's campaign won't even give a straight answer on who is going to pay for. I already covered this, but the deeper look comes here:
When the government says "It will pay your tuition" you would normally think, $4,000 or whatever your tuition is (Does this count private schools? Also not answered). However, it doesn't mean that the government is going to pay what you pay. Usually, it will operate by its own means and simply pay a set number for all of the students. The government isn't concerned with competition in a socialist setting. It is concerned with being fair to everyone. Which means that those teachers who have been on board for 10 years will be getting paid the same as those who just got there in the same bracket of teaching. Maintenance will be determined by what the school needs, rather then what they have the budget to accomplish, and materials provided for the students will be the same standard throughout the country. This is what socialism is, removing the need for 'survival of the fittest' and competition. That's just schools.
Anyone ever actually see what a government health care program works like? There is a huge reason why people come from all over the world to go to American doctors and American hospitals. We are charged with competition. Our pharmacies are charged with finding a better, safer, stronger cure then the one before it made by their rival. Our doctors compete for ratings for their workplaces. Our materials are safest and most sterile because of competition. It's not that we care about life, or those who need it. It's that they compete and get paid a lot of money to be competitive. Try going to a free clinic and having them analyze something as simple as a torn A.C.L. I did that, they called it soft tissue damage. This was a University clinic - and this is how little they cared. Veteran welfare is just as pitiful. This is just small stuff that the government tried to provide. It doesn't work. In small scale living arrangements like a family, or a group of friends socialism is a great thing. In a country? Look at the examples.
China is an example that people bring up against me at times when they feel like defending the idea. China did their idea right, and only recently, after thousands of years of low money value, low morale and high population - China introduced a capitalistic helmet to it's communist body. It allowed it's citizens to privately own business and export/import in a restrictive state. Since China has always been completely surpressed in this regard, it exploded! Hugely successful and highly competitive, bringing prosperity to full provinces because one huge business opened up and gave EVERYONE jobs. That was brilliance. In Chemistry it's known as adding acid to water.
America's decent would be just the opposite, water into acid. Everyone here is already use to getting the best, being able to do what they want. Compete for high positions, win awards. This would all be taken away. Though many people can't even fathom the idea and would (if it happens) most likely just keep up their daily routine, evidence of lacking reason to compete would pile up... and slowly kill our aggressive approach to life.
An example of a job like this would be a programmer getting paid hourly to write segments for a program, as opposed to the same programmer getting paid for completion, and based on the amount he has completed getting a bonus for doing the most. Ask a friend you know who makes websites, and see if he'd be willing to make an html business profile website for the same price as an applet based java version of the same thing.
Hahaha that rocked. I wrote a paper on socialism in the 7th grade. Defining the "Utopian Government" as a socialist community living under capitalistic possibility. IE for a small community to socially co-exist yet be able to produce a material or a trade then have it sold in the overhead capitalistic existence between other small socialistic communities. There was a lot of detail in it, but specifically, to relate it to America - it isn't a possible venture. The reasoning goes like this:
When you look at America, you'll see that every business exists openly and exposed in public as much as possible. Our open market policy (Allowing at most oligopolies to form) has kept our country run through competition. Every aspect of what we do is encouraged through competition, be it the medical field, education, military and even luxury. Competition is a drive that cannot die, because there is always someone out there trying to do better than you, and it's human nature to be competitive - to be the best! Socialism on a grand scale ( with no capitalistic advantage) would act like a battery. Yeah, there would be the initial boost when it was charged, but over time the battery will slowly die. What this means, is if the government controls the tuition (by the way, that's 4,000 X every college student that squeezes his/her ass into a social organization center + ((all of the materials the center requires + the center's upkeep) X All of the centers) That's the equation we're looking at, not just 4,000...) and it controls the cost of running the centers, that money comes from taxes, taxes that Obama's campaign won't even give a straight answer on who is going to pay for. I already covered this, but the deeper look comes here:
When the government says "It will pay your tuition" you would normally think, $4,000 or whatever your tuition is (Does this count private schools? Also not answered). However, it doesn't mean that the government is going to pay what you pay. Usually, it will operate by its own means and simply pay a set number for all of the students. The government isn't concerned with competition in a socialist setting. It is concerned with being fair to everyone. Which means that those teachers who have been on board for 10 years will be getting paid the same as those who just got there in the same bracket of teaching. Maintenance will be determined by what the school needs, rather then what they have the budget to accomplish, and materials provided for the students will be the same standard throughout the country. This is what socialism is, removing the need for 'survival of the fittest' and competition. That's just schools.
Anyone ever actually see what a government health care program works like? There is a huge reason why people come from all over the world to go to American doctors and American hospitals. We are charged with competition. Our pharmacies are charged with finding a better, safer, stronger cure then the one before it made by their rival. Our doctors compete for ratings for their workplaces. Our materials are safest and most sterile because of competition. It's not that we care about life, or those who need it. It's that they compete and get paid a lot of money to be competitive. Try going to a free clinic and having them analyze something as simple as a torn A.C.L. I did that, they called it soft tissue damage. This was a University clinic - and this is how little they cared. Veteran welfare is just as pitiful. This is just small stuff that the government tried to provide. It doesn't work. In small scale living arrangements like a family, or a group of friends socialism is a great thing. In a country? Look at the examples.
China is an example that people bring up against me at times when they feel like defending the idea. China did their idea right, and only recently, after thousands of years of low money value, low morale and high population - China introduced a capitalistic helmet to it's communist body. It allowed it's citizens to privately own business and export/import in a restrictive state. Since China has always been completely surpressed in this regard, it exploded! Hugely successful and highly competitive, bringing prosperity to full provinces because one huge business opened up and gave EVERYONE jobs. That was brilliance. In Chemistry it's known as adding acid to water.
America's decent would be just the opposite, water into acid. Everyone here is already use to getting the best, being able to do what they want. Compete for high positions, win awards. This would all be taken away. Though many people can't even fathom the idea and would (if it happens) most likely just keep up their daily routine, evidence of lacking reason to compete would pile up... and slowly kill our aggressive approach to life.
An example of a job like this would be a programmer getting paid hourly to write segments for a program, as opposed to the same programmer getting paid for completion, and based on the amount he has completed getting a bonus for doing the most. Ask a friend you know who makes websites, and see if he'd be willing to make an html business profile website for the same price as an applet based java version of the same thing.
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