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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I'm terribly sorry - I don't speak economy.

Words like Dow Jones sound like someone's name, a run on the bank is something that happens in Mary Poppins and shares sound like something you tell a kindergarten child to do...ok, so I do actually understand what shares are, but that's about my limit.

But I realise that it's probably very important for me to know considering people have been throwing around words like great depression.

Could someone help me out please?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:mmm world war 2 was a great motivator of industry, people and governments after the great depression....maybe thats what we need now? a big war between big nations to use up all the remaining resources and allow govts to repeal all the social movement we have had in the last 30 years.... /cynic

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:PS we had oil to help us bounce industry back from the great depression, I wonder what viable energy product we have that could bounce us back from this one in say 10-15 years?

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:if they can find a way to convert human suffering directly into electricity, all the energy crisis problems are solved!

Quote:"The National Debt Counter, erected in 1989 when the U.S. debt was 'merely' a tiny $2.7 trillion, has been moving so much that it recently ran out of digits to display the ballooning figure: $10,150,603,734,720, or roughly $10.2 trillion, as of Saturday afternoon. To accommodate the extra '1,' the clock was hacked: the '1' from "$10.2" has been moved left to the LCD square once occupied solely by the digital dollar sign. A non-digital, improvised dollar sign has been pasted next to the '1.' It will be replaced in 2009 with a new clock able to track debt up to a quadrillion dollars, which is a '1' followed by 15 zeros. That should be good enough for a few more months at least, I believe."

well that's reassuring, atleast they are going to accomadate for the possibility of a quadrillion dollar national debt...... crazy

EDITED_BY: railspinner (1223878136)


The less people know the more they believe

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River Santosha
River Santosha

Rubbertramp
Location: Earth
Member Since: 24th Jun 2008
Total posts: 11
Posted:Right, all americans are the same... We all live beyond our means and are in debt to our eyeballs from it. We all live in big houses and drive SUVS, we go shopping and buy as much stuff we don't need as we possibly can....man i'm sick of that!!! Also sick of people in other countries getting their news from biased sources and thinking they have a clue as to what is going on here.

Your vibe attracts your tribe.

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:missunderstood, I think you missunderstood everyone who posted in this thread.

who made any generalizing statements about americans doing any of those things?


The less people know the more they believe

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I'm agreeing with railspinner, MissUnderstood. In fact, I think a great deal of this has been about dispelling that belief, and I know alot of people overseas who do not feel that way (especially after just spending a good chunk of time in Oz and NZ).

What has me on edge is that I come home to find out that my company is going to be laying off 5% of it's work force. I am not sure I will have a job in a few weeks (though I am told I will). My housemate was laid off yesterday.

And after reading the current financial assesments of both McCain and Obama's plans, neither is very shiny in their outlooks. We currently have a $458 billion dollar deficit and are seriously hurting. If either of their plans goes in full force the projection is that we will be in a deficit, which also means full fledged depression, to the tune of $1 trillion over the next 8 or so years and won't be able to recover for the next 10 to 15 years.

And as we've all seen, one market bombs, they all topple like badly set dominoes.

*sigh*

Right.
Chin up.

*looking around for nearest boat out of here*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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ShaolinPoi
stranger

Member Since: 29th Feb 2008
Total posts: 19
Posted:Chin up is right. The economy will recover, it's simply election year. No worries guys, don't let the news keep you down. If many of you have paid any attention (as I did not, and certain noone else did as well) we've actually been worse off the last couple years. The only thing happening now is the media has decided that this a huge issue for our candidates to talk about, which means, business needs to suffer a bit (as it always does during election year) in order to give them things to talk about. Lets think about what happened: A) about three - four months before November, our retarded economy suddenly begins getting attention. Shortly after, every news channel starts every press release with: "We're keeping an eye on our current economy crisis! Please everyone notice that the dow is down several hundred points". Coincidentally, when people think that their money is in danger, they stop spending it. That's something we have all been taught at some point or another (though some of us tough cats don't like being told what to do wink ) Anyway, when people stop spending money, economy really does drop! But wait. How much did it really drop? Every day in our "Huge financial crisis" I notice that the restraunts have not suffered at all, which means those on the working class haven't seen damage. I even asked a friend, and found out that people don't even understand what the gravity of the dollar crashing entails: Reply: "Why should I care? I would just do what I do every day! Go to school, then go to work go eat and go home!" This is seriously what I was told. I do acknoledge that stocks are suffering, but that's because those who deal with stocks know that if someone says the stock market is crashing, most people don't have the balls to keep their money in such a market. That's where the suffering comes in.

-- Crap, I'm crunching time, I'll say something more together tomorrow when I'm not getting rushed frown Sorry if it seems like a ramble I literally have someone trying to pull me out and look at my typing skillz.! !! latas


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:OK I did a quick spin through this thread and the name JP Morgans bank jumped out. Do some research into their role in precipitating US entry into World War 2/ the start of modern Japan and their generally corrupting influence on politics/economic life everywhere. Start with a book called The Yamato Dynasty by Sterling and Peggy Seagrave. Do not be fooled that these people, and the other alienated traders at the heart of world capitalism, are on your side. They are not. They will do whatever it takes to profit and Dylans song Masters of War applies to them fully... 'you play with my world like its your little toy'.
Good luck, and I hope that homelessness and poverty never come your way, USA or anywhere else.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: ShaolinPoiIf many of you have paid any attention (as I did not, and certain noone else did as well) we've actually been worse off the last couple years.

Actually, this is not true (for the U.S. at least).

My company alone is facing it's largest global layoff in a decade.
There are two other major companies which hold this city up, and they are doing the same.
I know more people out of work or struggling than in the past few years.
I also think your assessment of who owns stock is underestimated.
Many people who work in large companies, including Wal-Mart style, not just corporate jobs, have a share holding retirement plan. This is actually not a choice but governed over by their employer, but they got seriously screwed over in the bottoming out of the markets. Since many people ignore their 401K they wouldn't even know how it effected them, but those closer to retirement age are fully aware they can't recoup the losses and are feeling it.

I have many, many coworkers who are of retirement age who can no longer afford to retire and are scared to death of the layoffs because they have been at the same company for 20+ years. Layoffs for them generally means the death of a steady career and a whole lot of uncertainty (older engineers do not get hired here in the face of younger competition with more up to date information and who will work cheaper).

I, alone, can name more than 10 people that I personally know who've lost tens of thousands in the past few weeks. Not because they are risky stock players but because their jobs did a 401k stock match.

Yes, the media jumped on it but they've been on the economic crunch since the effects became evident with the pricing hikes a few years ago. The stock topple was larger so it attracted more attention but I can tell you, both from following it all and living it all (as a home owner, parent, corporate lackey, stock owner, etc.) that things are far worse now than they have been for the past few years.
For the past few years, everything was holding steady. It wasn't easy but it wasn't a struggle for as many as there are now.
Foreclosures, bankruptsies, failed loans, homelessness, lines at soup kitchens, etc are all up in noticable percentages from last year alone.
Hiring is down from previous years. Even in this time of holiday retail, retailers have already put up signs they are not accepting help. I can't ever remember that happening.
That is on top of analyst reports, financial studies, etc.

The stocks crash effect alot of people, directly and indirectly, more than many realize.
And sure it will bounce back, but the point is, we shouldn't have to and since we do, it shouldn't take 15 years to do so.

newgabe, no one has said JP Morgan-Chase was on our side. They are greedy bastards like the rest, feeding upon the....well, don't get me started. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:canada wide their is problems popping up with food bank shortages, lines getting to big at soup kitchens. Id hate to see the situation in the US.

This isn't a fabrication of media hype, it's happening. It's been happening for a few years, and it's happening a lot faster and harder now. The facts can't be ignored.


The less people know the more they believe

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ShaolinPoi
stranger

Member Since: 29th Feb 2008
Total posts: 19
Posted:Obama kinda wants us to start in the soupline problem (IE: all college kids should work at community organisation projects to get tuition paid logic). I think as far as us pulling our economy up McCain has the idea with cutting taxes on business so they stop outsourcing it to freakin India and China. Tired of yellow pages calling with someone reading me a script waiting for a listed reply *grr*

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ShaolinPoi
stranger

Member Since: 29th Feb 2008
Total posts: 19
Posted:Pele, I must succeed that to you. You are correct on the big business concepts. I've worked small business for ever. I think what I am meaning is yes the stocks directly affect people. However the main reason of our stock crash is the simple fact that our economy was getting thousands of negative looks and remarks a day. When the economy is based on people trusting that spent money will come back to them through work, such negative publicity to the stock market and our economy itself is reason enough for many to lose their want to keep stocks in it. From my small business perspective (IE Restraunts, bars, etc) Most of these luxury locations did not seem to be effected because like politics, economy is something the new generation does not understand (Unless they were directly effected of course) I may have mentioned this before, but I actually asked a friend of mine what she would do if the dollar crashed: her reply? "I don't see why that would effect my day at all!"

The last couple of years, our debt and global standing hasn't been very keen - but it was only when we actually looked at it did we start to react to it.

I Mop! :-p


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:ShaolinPoi,
I own two small businesses, which are concidered "luxury" businesses. I don't have a stock based business whatever and as such, I didn't lose money per se in the crash.
However, we *did* feel it.
My supplies have gone up. My expenses have gone up. If I keep my prices the same, this effects my profit margin.
The more people who are laid off, who are pay cut, who are standing in a soup line means less disposable income coming into small businesses. This means we either have to up prices, struggle or close shop since loans are damn near impossible and the competition for grants is currently *insane*.
You can not effect big business without effecting the small.
You can not effect the working class citizens and not effect business.
It's a dominoe effect and we are all tied in together.

If your friend thinks she wouldn't, unless she lives off the grid, she'll be sorely surprised.
Grocery store prices on "amenities" has gone up so that everyone feels it. In some cases, it's even doubled.
It's done somewhat gradually and admittedly, alot of people don't pay attention to what they pay for a gallon of milk vs. a gallon of gas. Yet, when their paycheck doesn't stretch as far is when it gets noticed..after the fact. Cutbacks from day to day life are made or debt is increased, either way, things do change when the dollar value drops.
In fact, ask the Australians. Their dollar dropped drastically and it was felt broadly.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: Michael MooreFriends,

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."

(...)

As in: George's last coup...

whilst mumbling the mantra: "war on terror" "terrorist attacks" "weapons of mass destruction" "Russia invading Georgia" "Iran's nuclear program" "human rights in Burma" "violence in Darfur" (G.W.B. uses the word terror exactly 32 times in his last speech to the United Nations in September - not a single time he uses the words "economic crisis" or "climate change")

IMHO he IS the equivalent to Hitler in the 21st century... World domination ain't matter - for those who know it's just about a good laugh, comfortably sitting in an armchair.... having this kind of view:


Non-Https Image Link


Oh - excuse... that would be the view when approaching it with your private helicopter from the airport, avoiding traffic and valet parking.... wink

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1225784763)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Wachovia went under but Wells Fargo absorbed it. I'm working on a wach loan right now
it's going to suck but I think the gov should just step out of the whole thing and let it work it's way out
The mortgage crisis was due to people not knowing what type of loan they were getting, investors trying to make a quick buck and predatory lending. Also, just straight up crookedness on loan officer/appraisers/realtors/builders.
Most of the loans I work with are people who didn't understand the dangers of a variable or ARM loan. Grandparents, single moms, people with medical bills. Not some yuppie who wanted a house beyond their means. These are people who trusted people who should've been able to be trusted and bought homes they thought they would be able to live in for the rest of their life


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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ShaolinPoi
stranger

Member Since: 29th Feb 2008
Total posts: 19
Posted:Pele again you're correct. Small business expensive is in upheaval, prices are up and thus costs of food are going up. Even in my new profession of flooring the oil crisis is effecting prices, and those who would normally be buying are holding. So yes, we are effected from the top down. No argument there.

In the "luxury" business where people go to to enjoy themselves though, I do not believe that the customers have slowed too much. Recently, I have not been very specific, for that I apologize smile But I'm glad to see there is a population here which will take strength to the shortcomings of my own words. <3 you guys.

Regarding Faith's comment, we've seen that too. In fact we were halfway through the process of a loan when I think the place we were going through suddenly just disappeared. It's been weeks and not a single person seems to be employed there anymore, yet all of their phones still work and nothing electronic seemed to change. Got some craziness going on.

I think things are getting stable again though. Correct me if I'm wrong but the stocks have stopped their retardedness for the last week or so. A steady slow increase as people have hopefully gotten a grip and started to accept change :-p


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Stocks fell again today. Over 400 pts down to 9,1--something. Under 10,000 is concidered bad.

It's been released that the house market crash and the foreclosures are expected to continue into 2010.
The deficit estimate is projected to stay at $1 trillion PER YEAR for the next several years.
And that is with the bailout.

I still haven't heard if I'll have a job come the holidays. It's rumored that our division won't be touched but who knows.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:This may sound like a dumb question, And may actually be a dumb question.

Who's going to live in all the forclosed houses? Will they just be empty? Surely the banks cant afford to guard them, and if the economy has completely tanked, who is going to buy them? So why dont the homeless just take them over, get a generator,plant a garden, er... economic revolution based on necessity?

More seriously, who doesn't the banks come up with a plan to rent the houses to the people who could not afford their mortgages, at some lower reasonably managable amount, and give them the option to buy back the house when the financials straighten out again? That way they would get at least some profit, rather than nothing and the homes deteriorating empty.

Basically just wondering how a situation where a bunch of empty homes, and a bunch of homeless people, is going to be resolved.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I too have one of those luxury business and mine's based on tourism. What's the first thing people cull from their budget when times are tough ? Yep,the vacation reference staycation.

Even though this year was my best year ever mostly due to an increase in Asian tourism and, for some strange reason, this was the year that Australian's opened their wallets ( now, if only they could teach the Dutch. ) American spending was way down.

I'm not going to plan on a slower year for next year, and I'm going to continue running my business on my terms but I am bracing for the possibility that next year might not just be what I expect. So that pile o' cash is going to remain buried in the back yard rather than going into investments and I'm thanking FSM that I have a contingency fund set up in case of a bad year.

BansheeCat

It's not a stupid question or suggestion. The truth of the matter is those houses will degrade way faster with tenants in them who don't really care about the house(s) than they will if the banks pay some guy to go around and look after them.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:But, the banks don't Stout.

Bancheecat, squatters are already becoming a huge issue in many of the places in Florida and Nevada.
As well as parties. My niece was recently chased by the cops from being at a party that was held at one of the foreclosed homes in her town in Florida (yes, she's a twit).

There are also radio, tv and print ads *everywhere* about the auctions. There didn't used to be. Foreclosure homes actually go up for auction and will sell at a massive loss, some for as little as $30,000. You have to have the (rather large) deposit in cash when you buy them, and your finances pre-approved.
The idea that getting some money for it is alot better than none definately fuels those.
A few of my friends are actually looking into it as it's the only way they could actually afford a nice home.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:the houses in foreclosure do get auctioned and are often bought by investment complanies.
The houses otherwise are not guarded but they are "secured" with locks and there is such a large number, my bank does have people occassionally do drive by's
what we have found, as stout said, is that tenants often are not people who care about the property. They are trashing the property when they find out the owners aren't paying the mortgage, sometimes saying they won't pay rent either, which only leads to greater degradation of the property

and the banks are trying to work with the mortgagers with short sales, ARM resets, deed in lieu of fc, moratoriums and all that fun stuff. Most of the people stuck are decent people who just didn't realize what they were getting into

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1225983444)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Page: 123

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