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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:What is it guys? Students taking arms, walking into schools and killing (innocent) people... I don't get what's behind this... confused2

Not just since Columbine, the history of school shootings go as far back as 1966 (according to this Wiki article) and it's not just in the US - sure the majority of shootings do happen in the US but it's not just there...

Recent shooting in Finland (liberal gun laws, btw)

What message does it hold? I just can't make sense of it frown

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UPDATE:

Most school shootings happen in the USA (reason for that might be the existing gun laws, regardless of other factors)

Namely 41 incidences, starting 1966, with aprox. 162 victims. Mostly the perpetrators got either shot by police or shot themselves...

The Virginia Tech shooting so far has been the on with the highest death toll (33) followed by the first school shooting ever, the "University of Texas at Austin massacre" (17), the "Columbine High School massacre" (15) and the "Red Lake High School massacre" (10).

Only 4 of these shootings did not claim any victims.

It's hard to determine the ethnic background of the perpetrators as often there are no pictures included, but there seem to be only three women and three Asians involved in the killings.

Canada faced 8 shootings with 27 victims, the highest toll at a time having been 15 (including the perpetrator) - the first shooting happened in 1975.

The other 17 shootings have been spread across the globe, with three in Finland, two in Israel, Germany and Finland (to put it in numeric order). But just either one in India, Thailand, Yemen, Philippines, Argentina and Lebanon. There have been more than 90 victims in these shootings, with the highest tolls (at one given time) in Israel (22), the UK (16), Germany (16), followed by Finland (9 and 10).

Outstanding (and therefore not mentioned above) is the "Beslan School Hostage Crisis" where a group of armed rebels took an entire school hostage. In the process of "liberation", at least 334 hostages got killed, including 186 children...

The motifs for these shootings range from sheer insanity (like the first ever/ USA), political (Russia), religious (Israel) over revenge for mobbing to the simple "I don't like Mondays" (Brenda Ann Spencer)...

The perpetrator's ages - the youngest perpetrator having been age 6 (killing a classmate with a pistol he found in his uncle's home) to over 40, having been students or just random strangers to the schools, from (mainly) individuals over teams (like Columbine) or a group of three (Israel).

My initial claim that it's predominantly a white, western, male phenomenon has been intuitively correct - if you happen to have other evidence, I'll be happy to get corrected.

As for discussing the motifs, I guess it's helpful to put aside political and such - as it's clear: the highest possible death toll with the least possible resistance - and suggest we focus on those who went in there as students killing other students.
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EDITED_BY: FireTom (1222525372)
EDIT_REASON: Research


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Commercialism helps with making moneys which endorses greed, its what 'professional' sport tends to support itself with, its what it pays its players with and all that jazz.

I understand we're speaking of high school kids and I guess I should've made myself clearer... the professionals are the role models of these kids and occaisionally what they aspire to be.

I love to play Tennis... but its never been encouraged en mass as a means of getting out frustration in Australian society and thats the issue I believe I'm getting at.

But I don't agree with you on the last... often enough the frustrations of those taught to get it out via aggressive behaviour are the targets of these murder/suicide types.

I think the behaviour of those with the weapons tends to be fairly well understood as far as the defects in their outlets and mentality goes, so thats why I'm focusing on the social factors that lead to this, rather than just focusing on what actually happens.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
I love to play Tennis... but its never been encouraged en mass as a means of getting out frustration in Australian society and thats the issue I believe I'm getting at.

What would you say is then? Cos I really can't think of anything that is specifically 'encouraged' within Australia, which is why I believe our teen drinking is on the increase.

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
But I don't agree with you on the last... often enough the frustrations of those taught to get it out via aggressive behaviour are the targets of these murder/suicide types.


Do they release information like "the victims were the members of the football team?" And even then, if some of the people killed were footballers, there's more than one reason why they were killed;

a) they were footballers and the shooter hated footballers for a multitude of reasons (the picked on him -not necessarily football reason, anyone can pick on anyone-, they were what he/she wanted to be but never achieved, they were tall poppies and he/she wanted to cut them down)

b) they were arseholes (which is not related to football as I know plenty of arsehole in my life and they don't all play football, or sport in general for that matter)

c) they were in the wrong place at the wrong time (which is what I think happens for most victims of school shootings.)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Targets and victims are rarely the same.

The reason for a lot of the teasing tends to come from an ineptitude of sports... due to the double standards, men are rough and rowdy and all that, if not you're not a man and thereby inadequate.

That relates strongly to b. Whats the perception of an arsehole? Who do you deem an arsehole and who do you not? You tend to deem those that make you feel small an arsehole...

I'm aware that you can't say its the only factor, but its the only factor I've plucked out... if you want to measure this on a grand scale, not case by case you need to look at predominant social rituals, sports is the most influential social ritual in this equation as far as I'm concerned.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: MNS
The reason for a lot of the teasing tends to come from an ineptitude of sports... due to the double standards, men are rough and rowdy and all that, if not you're not a man and thereby inadequate.

That still isn't necessarily because of sport. My friend was teased at school because she had a cleft palate. I was teased because I was smart and it was pretty well known how active I was in non-school sport. If you claim "teasing" as being picked last for sporting teams, that's also largely to do with friends as well. In my experience, friends choose friends for their team THEN the kids who are good at the sport.

With double standards in society, they don't stem from sport, they stem from social history, you can't blame sport when it's a symptom of the problem, not a cause.

Originally Posted By: MNSThat relates strongly to b. Whats the perception of an arsehole? Who do you deem an arsehole and who do you not? You tend to deem those that make you feel small an arsehole...

The perception of an arsehole is up to the individual. Who I think is an arsehole is different to who you do and who the person holding the gun does. However it still doesn't have to equate to sport. One of the biggest arseholes I have to deal with at the moment is a misogynistic customer at work who I have no idea if he plays sport; I hate him for totally non-sport reasons.

And if it comes to someone who makes you feel small, it still doesn't have to be about sport. People can make you feel small intellectually and socially and even through your spinning/twirling/juggling ability!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonIf you claim "teasing" as being picked last for sporting teams, that's also largely to do with friends as well. In my experience, friends choose friends for their team THEN the kids who are good at the sport.


Often enough, the kids in sporting cliques tend to choose their friends based on ability in sport in the first place, they make friends through the sport and stick with that...

Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon
With double standards in society, they don't stem from sport, they stem from social history, you can't blame sport when it's a symptom of the problem, not a cause.

I agree to some extent, though I'd categorise the issues associated in sport as being an outlet of the issues already prevalent in society... I'd say its a good place to start changing the emphasis. I've said countless times... its not the sport thats a problem... its the sporting culture and the way its modeled, represented and taught to the youths... as Pele said, she's got some good examples of what sport CAN be, but on the whole thats not always what it is.

We're talking about extreme circumstances, its not in every single school that a kid takes a gun to class, if it were, then it'd be easier to talk more broadly, til then it makes more sense to discuss the more extreme circumstances that can arise from the current social condition.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
Often enough, the kids in sporting cliques tend to choose their friends based on ability in sport in the first place, they make friends through the sport and stick with that...


I was actually more thinking about those kids who weren't in the sporting crowd who picked their friends first.

But why shouldn't the sporty kids be allowed to pick their sporty friends? And likewise, what's so bad about them having sporty friends? People with similar likes and abilities stick together - look at home of poi! It's a bit of a double standard to say the sporty kids are being judgemental by being friends with the other sporty kids when the kids with other likes do the exact same thing.

Originally Posted By: MNS
its not the sport thats a problem... its the sporting culture and the way its modeled, represented and taught to the youths...


It seems to me that you have a distorted perception of sport where that the negative aspects sporting culture are larger than they really are which I think just turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I've not made any comment on them being friends, I merely pointed out that they often had friends together... I hadn't even commented on them picking friends first...

Its the issues that arise when choosing friends becomes about NOT choosing those you're against, moreso what occurs as a result.

I'm not sure what your experiences were like, Rouge... but I was a male through high school and was subjected to this double standard moreso than what you probably would've been..

Because I was entirely unmotivated by the idea of pitting myself against others I was singled out. While it didn't fuss me so much, upon looking around at the other kids in my school that didn't play into the sporting culture, they all desperately sought to develop some other way of being accepted, actually having to STRIVE for this acceptance OVER others... there were a lot of kids that played into the bullying games just so they weren't targets... others that became loud and over the top just to be noticed and feel like they were whole without being a part of the sporting culture... it was a pressure exerted from a whole school, including some of the staff.

When these kids already had positive aspects... they were complete people without any extra... they didn't need to exert themselves on the world, but thats how they felt, its a feeling that comes from an improper fostering of competition in schools... competition and healthy competition are different things... people shouldn't feel a need to compete in a social setting, but thats what was implied by students and thats what was subconciously upheld by staff and society.

The idea of our "impressionable youth" is more true than you could ever believe. You might remember Corey whateverhisnamewas that made fame through trashing a house with a huge party... think about how many Corey Clones you've seen everywhere. (I'm not suggesting he started it, he's just the quickest example I can think of) There are tonnes of guys parading around looking very much the same. Theres a competition as to who can look the coolest, a competition to fit in, if you're not a part of that then you're on your own unless you find a subculture.

Just because I dress differently when I go out I have been threatened every single time I've ventured out into the clubs of Geelong... perhaps its because I'm bigger, that tends to bring attention to me, but I assure you, I am not aggressive in any way, but trouble comes hunting me down anyway, just because I look different... there are huge correlations between sporting and the social norms... these are the kinds of things that need to be subjected to deemphasis.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Certainly, I didn't get it from a male perspective but just because I'm female doesn't mean I don't suffer from double standards. I frequently suffered from the female perspective of being told that I'm "not feminine" so I certainly had (and still have) social expectations on me that I didn't meet. However I'd never claim that those areas where people said I didn't fit in are the places where society's problems lie.

I agree that Corey two-surnames highlights some of the problems with today's youth, but that's not about sport.

I also agree that there's too much competition in school, but I disagree that it's about sport. There's just something about taking a few thousand children and ranking them to two decimal places that I think places far, FAR worse competitive problems than sport does.

Going out in Geelong and being threatened for your size has no relation to spot at all. It's society (and icky Geelong) and the nature of society, not the fault of sport.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:What I'd said about you regarding the male side of the double standard referred to the fact that most of these that are taking up the guns ARE males... so it needs to be looked at from a male perspective...

I think you're trying to compartmentalise things too much there, Rouge Dragon...

Conformity and sport are now inextricably linked in Australian society. The typical Aussie male enjoys nothing more than Footy or Cricket, beer and other such (Sadly true) stereotypes.

The competition I'm referring to is the competition that places pressure on students within the schools social structure, while I don't agree with the ENTER system entirely I still don't think that its the cause of animosity within the school structure... the results are not released until after its all done and only the student is aware of their results...

Being threatened is a result of the creation of sport as an aggressive medium as well as improper structuring of the emotional control... it tends to create a sense of otherness. Many teams are taught that the other team is to be the target of their aggression... This can be extended off the field, aggression to those who are different.

Cronulla... "skips" and "wogs" its almost like two teams... And the definition of a "skip" tends to be the stereotype of Australian males which is true for a large number...


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Even though they don't find out their results until after classes, it's still made very well aware that it's that system and my school was putting pressure on students way back in year 9 to start preparing for year 12 and enter scores.

Originally Posted By: MNS
Being threatened is a result of the creation of sport as an aggressive medium


Sport as an aggressive medium is more likely to have stemmed from the threats in society. After all, humans (and therefore human nature) came before sport.

And Cronulla?? That's sport how? Cos some of them were beating others with cricket bats?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Regardless of what it is that first brought threats and violence into society, sport is an easy way to socialise our youths into aggressive ways of acting and resolving conflict.

Cronulla is an example of an ignorant group of people resolving issues with violence. These people were taught how to be violent through the sporting subculture combined with the double standard requiring men to be men. They're mutually supportive of one another, without proper structure that is, and with an absence of proper structure theres other repercussions as well... creating an otherness, whether thats another race or someone who dresses differently.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonRegardless of what it is that first brought threats and violence into society, sport is an easy way to socialise our youths into aggressive ways of acting and resolving conflict.


sooo disagree.

Originally Posted By: MNS emphasis by me
Cronulla is an example of an ignorant group of people resolving issues with violence. These people were taught how to be violent through the sporting subculture combined with the double standard requiring men to be men... creating an otherness, whether thats another race or someone who dresses differently.


Evidence please? That's a pretty big claim that they were taught how to be violent through sport. Especially since there is an implication there that the lesson to be learnt in sport is violence, just like how a lesson in maths has the intended outcome of calculus.

"Otherness" as that can be taught in many different ways, and when it comes to race it's usually taught by parents before the child even starts playing sport. Sure, ethnic "otherness" can rear its ugly head in sport (famous incident with blood in water polo matches) but it didn't come from the sport, it wasn't taught through the sport.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:My evidence is based on the people I've met but essentially it stems off the idea of social behaviourist theory... Through being encouraged(Praise being the unconditioned stimulus) to act aggressively (The conditioned response) and rewarded for it as well as seeing other people rewarded for being aggressive, it becomes instilled within the individual that aggressive behaviour is acceptable... and unless discrimination occurs in which they learn that it is not OK to act this way off the field you get presented with the problem we've got now...

Its not only this, but this becomes reinforced amongst the children... aggression becomes the desired status quo. Due to the obvious requirement of teens/young adults to fit in with others in their peer group they tend to follow on, the ones that don't are taunted for not following.


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I agree with you there, but not that it's caused by sport.

Actually, I found some articles about this topic but they're all under something you need a membership too, dammit!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I never said it was CAUSED by sport, merely that it was facilitated by sport. There are a range of other factors, but thats the most prevalent factor... the one that hits most widely. The others are varied enough that they can be considered individual factors and not sociological factors.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Sorry, should have added "or harboured in sport to the extent you imply it is".

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I suppose our interactions with people in sport have been different... whether this is due to gender, socio-economic status, the way we pronounce the word "watermelon" or just plain luck, theres no way to say which is a more accurate representation of the way things work.

(I think its probably got to do with the way you pronounce "watermelon" myself)


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Dude, my pronunciation of watermelon is far superior to yours.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

addict
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 449
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonMy evidence is based on the people I've met but essentially it stems off the idea of social behaviourist theory... Through being encouraged(Praise being the unconditioned stimulus) to act aggressively (The conditioned response) and rewarded for it as well as seeing other people rewarded for being aggressive, it becomes instilled within the individual that aggressive behaviour is acceptable... and unless discrimination occurs in which they learn that it is not OK to act this way off the field you get presented with the problem we've got now...


Couldn't help but point this out - you've confused operant conditioning with classical conditioning.

Anyways encouraging someone to vent relatively harmless aggression in sports isn't going to make them more likely to go on a shooting spree.


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Aha! Thanks for pointing that one out, PsyRush. I never did pay attention in any of those lectures. ^_^

That wasn't the idea of it anyway... the idea was that aggression having been taught as a positive way to resolve conflict (An absence of the teaching that it doesnt exist outside of sports... a point that so many young people miss...) results in antagonistic behaviour that ends up victimising these kids with the weapons and they lash out against their tormentors, despite how wrong this may well be.


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:MNS...I am curious as to where you get your facts.
16-18 boys involved in sports don't turn violent unless they are on drugs (steroids), which again is not a norm here among that age. I was a teacher. I've also worked with athletes of that age as a dance instructor (long story). They are really focused and *not* aggressive off the field.

ALL forms of physical exersion are releases for emotion. From yoga to tennis to rugby. It's been studied countless times and proven.

I also think the biggest picture you are missing, the shooters are not in sports.
Check the statistics.
The kids who do the shootings are *not* part of a team and often feel as if they are cut off from the world.

Using your theory of pop culture and aggressive sports leading to these shootings (not just violent behaviour, since the thread is about the shootings), then there should be a direct correlation to the shooters being involved in violent team sports, but it simply is *not* there.

I'm sorry but I simply don't buy what you're selling. The facts, from formal studies or in my life (which is all I have to go on), simply do not support your theories at all.
In fact, portions of the government and independent interest groups here in the U.S. have been attempting to prove for decades that pop culture (video games, music, movies, tv, even violent sports) have lead to an increase in violent behaviour and they have yet to prove it.
There simply isn't a marked correlation.

Saying that it is common *is* saying it is standard.
In fact, here's the entry from Roget's Thesaurus online

"Main Entry: standard
Part of Speech: noun
Synonyms: accepted, average, banner, barometer, base, beau ideal, benchmark, calibration, canon, civilities, classic, colors, common,...."

You are saying that you find it acceptible to compare cultures but then are showing how two cultures are *completely* different by saying how your sports aren't well supervised and ours are *very* well regulated. That is an enormous difference, and obviously a pivotal one.

And if that is how it is where you are (since I am getting from Rougie that it is not how it is where she is) then I am very sorry for you.

EDITED_BY: Pele (1222828692)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'm starting to feel like nobody is even reading my posts properly.


Caution: The following contains the biggest stereotypes known to man.

Greg plays AFL football, all of Gregs mates think he's tops... Greg is highly competitive and aggressive on field. The game is well supervised, but not well structured... he's encouraged to be aggressive on field, but theres not a good emphasis on the community of learners around him and diversity... He's pushed rather hard by his father who once played football himself, but as good as he is he'll never be as good as his father was.

He loves the football, his favourite player (post retirement) has recently been involved in a huge drug scandal as well as a number of charges involving women, not to mention a few serious allegations involving violent crime...

Using his ignorance of others and his drive to be as good as dear old daddy, he stands on the backs of others in order to feel better... and no, he's not taking a mark while doing it. His friends Bill, Peter and Nathan join in... often in front of the girls, making themselves look big.

Alan loves listening to Slipknot and other related bands... his parents are split up and he doesn't really get too much support.

Alan is picked on daily by Greg often in front of the apple of his eye, Jessica.

Alan suffers from depression.

Can you understand how this leads to Alan picking up a gun? Its a fair way down the track yet, but I think you should at least understand a little better now... I guess i've not yet been clear enough...


Quoting from a thesaurus only gets you things that are vaguely familiar...

Main Entry: good
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: In excellent condition.
Synonyms: entire, flawless, intact, perfect, sound, unblemished, unbroken, undamaged, unharmed, unhurt, unimpaired, uninjured, unmarred, whole[b/]

Good and "flawless" are hardly the same. I can even have a delicious apple... does it mean its not "good" anymore after I've taken the first bite?
Its precisely the same with "common" and "standard" "common" is still quite prevalent without being the status quo across a region.

My information is drawn from experiences of myself and of people I've know which stretch over several different parts of Geelong and some parts of Melbourne, a few country areas also...

Often similar phenomenon occurs with something other than sport... sometimes intellect, but it tends to be a form of elitism... As anyone part of the faculty, its often very difficult to see what the students only show to one another... nasty words don't take long to say and rarely are they said around authority.

Theres been research on the way violent models influence people... consider Albert Bandura 1961. Though this may not occur within teenagers so much, you might consider that by this age they've learned how authority figures react to violent behaviour... but does this really mean they've been instilled with a set of values or does it just mean they've learned how not to get caught?


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:So really, the story you just told has absolutely nothing to do with sports, and it's all about bad parenting.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Its a combination of factors... some we're aware of, some we're not. I'm ignoring the ones that are obvious and very, very much situational and focusing on the ones that have an impact on an entire societies function, not just a group of individuals.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay - I feel the need to step in right here.

I sense a growing frustration in MNS posts and have to say that that either his posts are not getting read properly, or his opinion is put in a box. This is not helpful to the discussion and IMHO he actually DOES have a point. Remember that the motifs had vast range and that we're talking about not even a fraction of a percent of all children, who attend schools - and another marginal percentage of perpetrators who simply happen to target 'innocent' children.

MNS opinion does not hold the Universal key to the topic, but it might actually be the truth for a few (out of...) why just picking on him now? Just because you disagree... ? wink hug

Pele: I'm all happy that your boy and his friends are (mentally) healthy. Speaks for you as a mom - and yes, it is the majority of kids who don't go, take a gun for a spree.

Now we're not talking about the norm, but about the cases where things went terribly wrong. If you happen to have access to more statistics, that could give us more access to the backgrounds, please post them, so we can add it to the grand picture.

So far (correct me if I'm wrong) you have presented more evidence for healthy kids, than given us clues about the possible reasons.

Lurch: Bad parenting is ONE other aspect in this. I have not been able to access the full records.

There have been cases of sheer mental and physical disorders - not much a parent can do here... right?

I guess Stout has mentioned it: "nature vs. nurture" - there are craploads of badly parented kids out there who DON'T pick up guns and kill their classmates and I'm certain that there are others with 'good' parents, who did.

So in order to get a broader picture we might just as well accept that.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:MNS...are you feeling picked on ?

I hope not, but I do feel your hypothesis represents only a very small contribution to the cause of school shootings becoming a societal meme in the recent past.

I figure Pele's more on the mark with her post on page one of this thread. There's a lot in there, save mentioning the werther effect by name, which, IMO, has a lot to do with proliferating this type of suicide.

I'm also thinking the cult of individuality makes a large contribution to this phenomenon and, to borrow a phrase from another thread, makes this an act of "ego driven lunacy"


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:That example has very little related to sport. If you take the sport out of it, it's likely to still happen. Why? Cos Greg is (as Lurch said) a victim of bad parenting. Plus that comes under what I was saying earlier about someone being an arsehole - happens for many reasons and isn't just cos someone plays sport.

I feel like, going with what MNS is saying, somehow because I play sport means that I'm a bad person who makes people want to kill themselves and others and because I coach it at an all boys school means that I'm creating little monsters who are going give people depression who will then kill others and then themselves.

I'm a serial killer frown

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1222911655)
EDIT_REASON: thought of something else


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Rouge: There is certainly no reason to feel like a serial killer, just because one is practicing sports (at school or University) - and I'm sure that is not what MNS tried to imply.

Sports can have a very benefiting effect on youth, it also can enhance aggression and over assessment of the self - this depends on the complimenting factors, parenting and trainer as well as the individual personality.

Maybe we need also to take into account that school shootings and massacres are the absolute extreme, whilst school and youth violence is not.

Pele, I'm still pondering upon your post, please be patient with me. As I'm currently in Thailand, I am having a (very superficial) look on S/E Asian socials. I'm not certain whether there are no double standards in Japan - I even want to doubt it at this stage - according to second hand information that I received from Westerners who traveled there.

Whether or not Karaoke can be regarded as an outlet for aggression - laugh3 sorry but I'm not ready to subscribe to that at this point. Fact is that usually negative emotions are not to be shown in public. I'm not sure about the rest of Asia, but Thailand seems to have a *very* disciplined schooling system - not sure whether this plays a significant role.

I'll think more and be back thereafter.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Stout: No I wasn't really feeling picked on, just getting irritated that I had had my point manipulated a few times and had to re-explain myself too many times.

I'll just say Toms pretty well hit it on the head with his statements regarding the point I was trying to get across.


hug

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hi MNS..

It was a rather tough point to sell, and I think there might have been some confusion as to just exactly what you were trying to say. In this format ( online discussion ) it's always a good idea to back up your thesis with, that way if someone disagrees, they can disagree with your references rather than "attacking" your "opinion" which, you may...or may not, take personally.

A common discussion forum meme is " Attack the argument, not the person making it" and it's important to keep that idea in mind when ideas your promoting run up against resistance.

IMO ( use lots of those too ) your point was a turkey right from the get go and I felt you were writing more from personal experience that anything else. maybe try isolation a certain segment of sport, like say... martial arts or rugby and try to link participants in aggressive, hurt the other guy sports like those with the much broader issue of violence in society.

cheers hug smile


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