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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:What is it guys? Students taking arms, walking into schools and killing (innocent) people... I don't get what's behind this... confused2

Not just since Columbine, the history of school shootings go as far back as 1966 (according to this Wiki article) and it's not just in the US - sure the majority of shootings do happen in the US but it's not just there...

Recent shooting in Finland (liberal gun laws, btw)

What message does it hold? I just can't make sense of it frown

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UPDATE:

Most school shootings happen in the USA (reason for that might be the existing gun laws, regardless of other factors)

Namely 41 incidences, starting 1966, with aprox. 162 victims. Mostly the perpetrators got either shot by police or shot themselves...

The Virginia Tech shooting so far has been the on with the highest death toll (33) followed by the first school shooting ever, the "University of Texas at Austin massacre" (17), the "Columbine High School massacre" (15) and the "Red Lake High School massacre" (10).

Only 4 of these shootings did not claim any victims.

It's hard to determine the ethnic background of the perpetrators as often there are no pictures included, but there seem to be only three women and three Asians involved in the killings.

Canada faced 8 shootings with 27 victims, the highest toll at a time having been 15 (including the perpetrator) - the first shooting happened in 1975.

The other 17 shootings have been spread across the globe, with three in Finland, two in Israel, Germany and Finland (to put it in numeric order). But just either one in India, Thailand, Yemen, Philippines, Argentina and Lebanon. There have been more than 90 victims in these shootings, with the highest tolls (at one given time) in Israel (22), the UK (16), Germany (16), followed by Finland (9 and 10).

Outstanding (and therefore not mentioned above) is the "Beslan School Hostage Crisis" where a group of armed rebels took an entire school hostage. In the process of "liberation", at least 334 hostages got killed, including 186 children...

The motifs for these shootings range from sheer insanity (like the first ever/ USA), political (Russia), religious (Israel) over revenge for mobbing to the simple "I don't like Mondays" (Brenda Ann Spencer)...

The perpetrator's ages - the youngest perpetrator having been age 6 (killing a classmate with a pistol he found in his uncle's home) to over 40, having been students or just random strangers to the schools, from (mainly) individuals over teams (like Columbine) or a group of three (Israel).

My initial claim that it's predominantly a white, western, male phenomenon has been intuitively correct - if you happen to have other evidence, I'll be happy to get corrected.

As for discussing the motifs, I guess it's helpful to put aside political and such - as it's clear: the highest possible death toll with the least possible resistance - and suggest we focus on those who went in there as students killing other students.
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EDITED_BY: FireTom (1222525372)
EDIT_REASON: Research


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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:well any kind of intentional injury (not exlusivly gun violence being responsible 2.84 percent of deaths, and with aproximatly 134 million births a year and only 54 million deaths a year, just how wrong do you think the figures are? They must be pretty ridiciously wrong for deaths by guns to even have a tiny effect on the world population.

and no didn't say anyone was. you just said everyone is full of "BS opinions" Big diffrence.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:doppelGanger I think you make a good point about the relationship between American male masculinity and guns. I can see how school shootings could be a way of looking for acceptance, a bizarre rights of passage ritual if you like.

And hey, I think you are dead right about the gun slingers. Just look at the war in Iraq, amongst other places, if need proof of that one.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StonedoppelGanger I think you make a good point about the relationship between American male masculinity and guns. I can see how school shootings could be a way of looking for acceptance, a bizarre rights of passage ritual if you like.

And hey, I think you are dead right about the gun slingers. Just look at the war in Iraq, amongst other places, if need proof of that one.


I was being sarcastic, I don't judge my or anyone elses masculinity on weapons. Masculinity is standing up for what you believe in among a lot of other things, it just so happens that a lot of males here believe in guns; for reasons that seem to be beyond some people.

And railspinner, take your numbers and attribute a few children to each, then attribute those children children, it is exponential growth. I never, again, said guns were the key cause to population reduction, just as school shootings don't really help - the point I was making is regarding banning guns, not school shootings.

EDITED_BY: doppelGanger (1231804950)


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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:Quote:And railspinner, take your numbers and attribute a few children to each, then attribute those children children, it is exponential growth. I never, again, said guns were the key cause to population reduction, just as school shootings don't really help - the point I was making is regarding banning guns, not school shootings.

Quote:Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence did not exist? We would be living in each others $hit, knifing everyone all day. Even with guns, we are doomed in the next 100 years at our growth rate. Even if guns are bad, people still need to die, violence still needs to exist, this is the real world, not some hippie fairy tale where everything works out.

Uh yeah you did say that.


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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: railspinnerQuote:And railspinner, take your numbers and attribute a few children to each, then attribute those children children, it is exponential growth. I never, again, said guns were the key cause to population reduction, just as school shootings don't really help - the point I was making is regarding banning guns, not school shootings.

Quote:Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence did not exist? We would be living in each others $hit, knifing everyone all day. Even with guns, we are doomed in the next 100 years at our growth rate. Even if guns are bad, people still need to die, violence still needs to exist, this is the real world, not some hippie fairy tale where everything works out.

Uh yeah you did say that.

Uh, no I didn't, read it again champ.

What I said: Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence did not exist?

What you want to hear: Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence in school did not exist?


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Arr mr doppelGanger, I think the point that perhaps you are missing or has not become apparent is this: that school children, even American school children are not somehow magically excluded from your theory on the use of guns and violence as a method of population control. If that is not apparent, then think of all the school children killed in Iraq and Gaza.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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railspinner
railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada
Member Since: 8th Oct 2008
Total posts: 99
Posted:well, the world would be pretty much the same, as ive clearly demostrated.

And the main problem with school shootings isn't gun legality, it's the availibility of guns to mentally disturbed youth. Leaving guns laying around unlocked is a bad idea. Sure kids can still go buy illegal guns, but procurring a illegal firearm, especially if you aren't particulary connected with criminal elements is quite a bit more difficult then stealing your parents guns or breaking into someones house and stealing one.


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Rancor
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Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: railspinnerwell, the world would be pretty much the same, as ive clearly demostrated.

And the main problem with school shootings isn't gun legality, it's the availibility of guns to mentally disturbed youth. Leaving guns laying around unlocked is a bad idea. Sure kids can still go buy illegal guns, but procurring a illegal firearm, especially if you aren't particulary connected with criminal elements is quite a bit more difficult then stealing your parents guns or breaking into someones house and stealing one.



You pretty much just argued my point for me, thanks.


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneArr mr doppelGanger, I think the point that perhaps you are missing or has not become apparent is this: that school children, even American school children are not somehow magically excluded from your theory on the use of guns and violence as a method of population control. If that is not apparent, then think of all the school children killed in Iraq and Gaza.

The point you missed is I never tried making that point. I stated numerous times that I didn't believe school shooting were for population control... can you read or do you just want to continue making assumptions?


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGanger
The point you missed is I never tried making that point. I stated numerous times that I didn't believe school shooting were for population control... can you read or do you just want to continue making assumptions?

Your other point doesn't really hold up then... Other people killed by guns aren't FOR population control, either... How many people that pick up a gun with the intent to cause someone harm think "Well, theres another one that won't be reproducing, darwinian law in motion!"

If guns and violence are indeed a method of population control as you claim, then no death by a gun is excluded from that theory. Someone shot in a school is just as dead as someone shot outside a school. Stones last line there has a very good point that doesn't relate directly to the school shootings of the west but is inextricably linked to your idea as well as the school shootings.


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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonOriginally Posted By: doppelGanger
The point you missed is I never tried making that point. I stated numerous times that I didn't believe school shooting were for population control... can you read or do you just want to continue making assumptions?

Your other point doesn't really hold up then... Other people killed by guns aren't FOR population control, either... How many people that pick up a gun with the intent to cause someone harm think "Well, theres another one that won't be reproducing, darwinian law in motion!"

If guns and violence are indeed a method of population control as you claim, then no death by a gun is excluded from that theory. Someone shot in a school is just as dead as someone shot outside a school. Stones last line there has a very good point that doesn't relate directly to the school shootings of the west but is inextricably linked to your idea as well as the school shootings.

I was never trying to attribute population control to school shootings, for the millionth time. If it wasn't clear the last million times, I hope this message will reach you three. I was protecting my belief that guns are good, and because we got sidetracked you three decided to take everything I said in the context of school shootings, I am sick of coming in here and having to repeat this when all it would take is comprehensive reading.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I read it a few times and it only seems that you've said one thing and then said it doesnt apply to school shootings without backing it with any reason why it doesn't apply.

Perhaps you might want to go back to the post people are referring to and pull it apart and put more detail into it, I think the issue might be that you're assuming a few things as fact without citing them as references or some other form of breakdown in communication.

I'd suggest pulling quotes from your old post and rephrasing them underneath. smile


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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Damn it this is rediculous. I WILL go pull them apart just for you, because you obviously can not take my word in saying that AGAIN I did not mean school shootings as a means for population control. I have to go reach into the past and prove it. You can't just drop it, you can't just know after me stating it again and again that it was misinterpreted. ****ing a.

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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:This is verbatim what I said:
Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence did not exist?

This is what you seem to want to hear:
Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence in schools did not exist?

Seems like deja'vu here.

Originally Posted By: doppelGanger

Uh, no I didn't, read it again champ.

What I said: Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence did not exist?

What you want to hear: Can you imagine the overpopulation we would be facing if guns and violence in school did not exist?

How many more times do I have to spell it out for you three?

IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS BEING SPOKEN OF AT THE TIME, I WAS REFERING TO GUN RIGHTS IN GENERAL, NOT ******* SCHOOL SHOOTINGS. Any more questions on it and you can send me a ******* PM.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Take it easy, doppelGanger, it seems you've mistaken the point of MY post.

My point was that if guns are population control that it doesnt matter where the gun kills someone, its still population control.

(Warning, semi-related analogy upcoming)
If a banana is delicious and good for you, why does it matter whether its eaten in a warzone or a school playground?

And this is the point that I believe a few others have made as well.

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonI read it a few times and it only seems that you've said one thing and then said it doesnt apply to school shootings without backing it with any reason why it doesn't apply.


I should have referred to this more strongly when I said you should pull apart what you said... back some of it up with a solid argument.

Why exactly is it that guns can be population control one place and not in another when the intention of discharging the weapon was never population control in either situation?


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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Fine, killing kids is population control, your right. MY POINT WAS THAT I WAS NOT REFERENCING KILLING KIDS AS POPULATION CONTROL, I WAS ADDRESSING VIOLENCE IN GENERAL. WTF POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET AT?

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I personally was just helping to clear up a misunderstanding.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGangerFine, killing kids is population control, your right. MY POINT WAS THAT I WAS NOT REFERENCING KILLING KIDS AS POPULATION CONTROL, I WAS ADDRESSING VIOLENCE IN GENERAL. WTF POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO GET AT?

Exactly, you were not seeing killing kids as part of your theory on population control.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Yeah, people dying is population control, however you guys made it sound like I was promoting school shooting for population control. I was not, and maintain that stance. Don't give me that "exactly" crap, there was no reason to even argue it in the first place and you know that damn well.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:doppelGanger...that population control as a justification for owning anti personnel firearms is about the mist ludricrous idea I've ever run across in a gun control thread. The usual retort to something like that would be along the lines of "how about those evil antibiotics and their contribution to overpopulation...maybe we should ban those in order to save the planet ? "

What you have to understand here is that people living in gun controlled countries ( most of the "western" ) world don't understand the perceived American need for 2nd amendment firearms. We don't want an armed populace with defined rules of engagement that allow us to kill each other for simple ideas like protecting property.

Stone summed it up nicely with his quote from the NY Times blog with the bit about society evolving away from thinking they *need* anti personnel weapons, with the US being alone in the world in this respect. Even Finland is revisiting their gun laws, based on the latest shooting.

A while back, on this thread I asked you just what English fox hunting had to do with firearms, you didn't answer. there was a reason I asked that question and had you looked into it you would have found the answer....nothing.

The idea was to communicate to you that the NRA is lying to you, those protests had nothing to do with guns ( hey. you posted the video ) Then they cut to clips of guns being "confiscated" and segeuay into the case of Tony Martin, who under English law ( well, UK law ) performed what could only be termed an execution, seeing as how he shot the burglars when they were...running away.

Poor old Tony didn't even have the sense to go to his kitchen, grab a knife, and put it in the hand of one of the perps as he lay there withing in agony, No, Tony himself ran away.

This sort of stuff my fly in the US, but it doesn't fly in the rest of the civilised world.

My point is, the NRA is lying to you, they want to keep you paranoid, they want you to buy more guns. How about a gun for under the car seat ? Another "kit gun" for the tackle box, a back up piece, just in case the 1911 jams ? A .50 caliber rifle, just in case you need some extra range.

It's a sales pitch, nothing more and if they can keep you paranoid that there's an armed criminal "just around the corner" then they've done their job.

Likewise with the idea of keeping guns, jsut in case you have to fight the government ? Really ? You plan on taking on the US military with a pissant little AR15 ? Recent events in Gaza should show just how ludicrous that proposal is too. AK47 vs DIME bomb...like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Or maybe it's an expected chaos when the government somehow dissolves resulting in a movie style dystopia ( eg Mad Max ) or a Somalia style "rudderless" society when it's might makes right with armed factions battling out for control...warlord style. Yea, well maybe, but still withing the realm of paranoia IMO.

A while back, a poster on this forum, FireTom, tried to make a connection between the 2nd Amendment and US foreign policy. At first, I didn't see a very strong connection, but as I do more of this Internet discussion, and explore the aggressive way that the US is reacting to perceived security threats ( Iraq, Afghanistan, stupid TSA regulations ) and exporting them, I'm beginning to think that connection isn't as tenuous as I first thought it was.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Stout that is a most excellent summary. I think you have really sussed it out. I have a much better undertanding of the issues after reading your post. The man can write.

cool


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Thanks for the compliment, Stone smile

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:I didn't answer your foxhunting question because I thought it was rhetorical, I also never said gun violence in schools was population control, get over it its censored annoying repeating it every two seconds. The NRA does not get money for guns sold either, it's not a campaign or some stunt and they are not lying. Your impression of them shows me how ignorant you are regarding what they do. I am done in here.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hi doppleganger

What you're doing here is reading the thread title and making the connection between that title and your comment about population control.

Unless, of course, you're doing it on purpose.

Nobody ever said you were talking specifically about school shootings when you mentioned that guns were good for population control, that's something you've formulated in your head based on the title.

You were the one who knocked this thread off topic with your general comments about gun ownership, then followed with the typical doomsday CTs, so what's it going to be, a general gun thread like we already have running. or keep this one about the OP ?

Let me guess...lifetime NRA member ??


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Once again, because you guys are SO dense, I was not justifying firearms for population control, jesus christ.

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:I actually tried putting it back on track, as you can see by my third or so post, and tried separating what I was talking about so you wouldn't be confused, but again, you don't like to look at that.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGangerOnce again, because you guys are SO dense, I was not justifying firearms for population control, jesus christ.

Yes....you were.


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:No, I said that firearms help population control, not that we should have them FOR population control. Get it through your head, I am sorry YOU misinterpreted what I said, but I have spelled it out about 8 times since then and your still arguing a point that doesn't matter.

I am done trying to explain the context of how I meant it, as obviously it is lost on you and all you would like to do is argue when you haven't even stopped to think what I said. For your information, I am not an NRA member.

I know what I meant, and you don't care but to hear yourself think your right. I really am done discussing this. We are speaking of two different things and you can't figure it out.


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