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Forums > Social Discussion > War in Georgia - your thoughts?

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Russia at war with Georgia - what is it good for?



Just to put the spark out:



Georgia has been a province/ state of the USSR itself and I somehow remember that when the confederation broke off due to the policies of Mr. Gorbatchov, there was not much resistance from Russia towards the other states.



Now South-Ossetia, the province of Georgia, tries to brake away from Georgia (for their own reasons) and merge with Russia...



I do understand that the Georgian government has some issues with it, but personally I am all for freedom (of choice) and if the democratic majority of a country makes a decision then it should be respected.



I'd also support Northern Ireland in its democratic struggle to finally merge with the Republic or - for say - California if they'd (democratically) decide it would be time to leave the Union. Personally I support the (peaceful) struggle of an ethnic group for independence and autonomy in their homeland and disapprove of any violence and power struggle.



I guess those leaders, choosing to use violence to keep their kingdom together, should try Juggling (the graceful art of letting go)...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1218350817)


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GeoffonTour04
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

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Location: Oxford

Total posts: 360
Posted:Don't know enough about the history of Georgia's separtism to comment on that (only what I've read in the news recently).

But with regards to your comment on NI or California leaving their respective unions, what if less than a majority wanted to leave? It's not always as simple as the people wanting out & 'the man' holding them back.
Also there are economic & industrial considerations


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:mmm I read that South Ossetia is ethnically distinct, and has been seperately governed since the 90's. Apprarently Georgia has been accused of running an ethnic cleansing action there recently (hence Russian bombing).

Russia quite logically accuses US naysayers of hypocrisy IRT invading Iraq w/ Kurds and saying 'no' to protect South Ossetians.

cant figure out what the prize is on either side...In Iraq its obvious, Georgia I dont think has a massive oil reserve?


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Apparently, America is backing Georgia in its invasion of South Ossetia because it wants to set up military bases in Eastern Europe. Russia has overacted in its retaliation against Georgia, because it doesnt trust Americas motives for setting up the bases ie. in Russias backyard.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

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Posted: Written by :Stone


Apparently, America is backing Georgia in its invasion of South Ossetia because it wants to set up military bases in Eastern Europe. Russia has overacted in its retaliation against Georgia, because it doesnt trust Americas motives for setting up the bases ie. in Russias backyard.



stone, did you watch compass last night? wink


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Yes Mr Majestik. I'm not sure if it was Compass, but it was certainly on the ABC.

Apparently, there is a vital oil pipeline, and Georgian soldiers were trained and armed by the American military.

If it blows out, then Russia will be building a missile base in Cuba. Dj vu, Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis of the 60s.


Here is an update Russian forces still in control of Gori.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I could be totally wrong cos I've been too busy to follow the news, but I think that part of the reason could be showing their own separatist regions that they have military power and will not be played with.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:mmm 2% of the worlds oil goes through that pipe.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
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Total posts: 3289
Posted:oh dear.

posted on another forum I'm on...depressingly logical.

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War in the Caucasus: Towards a Broader Russia-US Military Confrontation?


by Michel Chossudovsky


Global Research, August 10, 2008


During the night of August 7, coinciding with the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, Georgia's president Saakashvili ordered an all-out military attack on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia.

The aerial bombardments and ground attacks were largely directed against civilian targets including residential areas, hospitals and the university. The provincial capital Tskhinvali was destroyed. The attacks resulted in some 1500 civilian deaths, according to both Russian and Western sources. "The air and artillery bombardment left the provincial capital without water, food, electricity and gas. Horrified civilians crawled out of the basements into the streets as fighting eased, looking for supplies." (AP, August 9, 2008). According to reports, some 34,000 people from South Ossetia have fled to Russia. (Deseret Morning News, Salt Lake City, August 10, 2008)

The importance and timing of this military operation must be carefully analyzed. It has far-reaching implications.

Georgia is an outpost of US and NATO forces, on the immediate border of the Russian Federation and within proximity of the Middle East Central Asian war theater. South Ossetia is also at the crossroads of strategic oil and gas pipeline routes.

Georgia does not act militarily without the assent of Washington. The Georgian head of State is a US proxy and Georgia is a de facto US protectorate.
Who is behind this military agenda? What interests are being served? What is the purpose of the military operation.

There is evidence that the attacks were carefully coordinated by the US military and NATO.

Moscow has accused NATO of "encouraging Georgia". Russias Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov underscored the destabilizing impacts of "foreign" military aid to Georgia: .

It all confirms our numerous warnings addressed to the international community that it is necessary to pay attention to massive arms purchasing by Georgia during several years. Now we see how these arms and Georgian special troops who had been trained by foreign specialists are used, he said.(Moscow accuses NATO of having "encouraged Georgia" to attack South Ossetia, Russia Today, August 9, 2008)

Moscow's envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, sent an official note to the representatives of all NATO member countries:

Russia has already begun consultations with the ambassadors of the NATO countries and consultations with NATO military representatives will be held tomorrow," Rogozin said. "We will caution them against continuing to further support of Saakashvili."

It is an undisguised aggression accompanied by a mass propaganda war, he said.

(See Moscow accuses NATO of having "encouraged Georgia" to attack South Ossetia, Russia Today, August 9, 2008)

According to Rogozin, Georgia had initially planned to:

"start military action against Abkhazia, however, 'the Abkhaz fortified region turned out to be unassailable for Georgian armed formations, therefore a different tactic was chosen aimed against South Ossetia', which is more accessible territorially. The envoy has no doubts that Mikheil Saakashvili had agreed his actions with "sponsors", "those with whom he is negotiating Georgia's accession to NATO ". (RIA Novosti, August 8, 2008)

Contrary to what was conveyed by Western media reports, the attacks were anticipated by Moscow. The attacks were timed to coincide with the opening of the Olympics, largely with a view to avoiding frontpage media coverage of the Georgian military operation.

On August 7, Russian forces were in an advanced state readiness. The counterattack was swiftly carried out.

Russian paratroopers were sent in from Russia's Ivanovo, Moscow and Pskov airborne divisions. Tanks, armored vehicles and several thousand ground troops have been deployed. Russian air strikes have largely targeted military facilities inside Georgia including the Gori military base.

The Georgian military attack was repelled with a massive show of strength on the part of the Russian military.

Act of Provocation?

US-NATO military and intelligence planners invariably examine various "scenarios" of a proposed military operation-- i.e. in this case, a limited Georgian attack largely directed against civilian targets, with a view to inflicting civilian casualties.

The examination of scenarios is a routine practice. With limited military capabilities, a Georgian victory and occupation of Tskhinvali, was an impossibility from the outset. And this was known and understood to US-NATO military planners.

A humanitarian disaster rather than a military victory was an integral part of the scenario. The objective was to destroy the provincial capital, while also inflicting a significant loss of human life.

If the objective were to restore Georgian political control over the provincial government, the operation would have been undertaken in a very different fashion, with Special Forces occupying key public buildings, communications networks and provincial institutions, rather than waging an all out bombing raid on residential areas, hospitals, not to mention Tskhinvali's University.

The Russian response was entirely predictable.

Georgia was "encouraged" by NATO and the US. Both Washington and NATO headquarters in Brussels were acutely aware of what would happen in the case of a Russian counterattack.

The question is: was this a deliberate provocation intended to trigger a Russian military response and suck the Russians into a broader military confrontation with Georgia (and allied forces) which could potentially escalate into an all out war?

Georgia has the third largest contingent of coalition forces in Iraq after the US and the UK, with some 2000 troops. According to reports, Georgian troops in Iraq are now being repatriated in US military planes, to fight Russian forces. (See Debka.com, August 10, 2008)

This US decision to repatriate Georgian servicemen suggests that Washington is intent upon an escalation of the conflict, where Georgian troops are to be used as cannon fodder against a massive deployment of Russian forces.

US-NATO and Israel Involved in the Planning of the Attacks

In mid-July, Georgian and U.S. troops held a joint military exercise entitled "Immediate Response" involving respectively 1,200 US and 800 Georgian troops.

The announcement by the Georgian Ministry of Defense on July 12 stated that they US and Georgian troops were to "train for three weeks at the Vaziani military base" near the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. (AP, July 15, 2008). These exercises, which were completed barely a week before the August 7 attacks, were an obvious dress rehearsal of a military operation, which, in all likelihood, had been planned in close cooperation with the Pentagon.

The war on Southern Ossetia was not meant to be won, leading to the restoration of Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia. It was intended to destabilize the region while also triggering a US-NATO confrontation with Russia.

On July 12, coinciding with the outset of the Georgia-US war games, the Russian Defense Ministry started its own military maneuvers in the North Caucasus region. The usual disclaimer by both Tblisi and Moscow: the military exercises have nothing to do with the situation in South Ossetia. (Ibid)

Let us be under no illusions. This is not a civil war. The attacks are an integral part of the broader Middle East Central Asian war, including US-NATO-Israeli war preparations in relation to Iran.

The Role of Israeli Military Advisers

While NATO and US military advisers did not partake in the military operation per se, they were actively involved in the planning and logistics of the attacks. According to Israeli sources (Debka.com, August 8, 2008), the ground assault on August 7-8, using tanks and artillery was "aided by Israeli military advisers". Israel also supplied Georgia with Hermes-450 and Skylark unmanned aerial vehicles, which were used in the weeks leading up to the August 7 attacks.

Georgia has also acquired, according to a report in Rezonansi (August 6, in Georgian, BBC translation) "some powerful weapons through the upgrade of Su-25 planes and artillery systems in Israel". According to Haaretz (August 10, 2008), Israelis are active in military manufacturing and security consulting in Georgia.

Russian forces are now directly fighting a NATO-US trained Georgian army integrated by US and Israeli advisers. And Russian warplanes have attacked the military jet factory on the outskirts of Tbilisi, which produces the upgraded Su-25 fighter jet, with technical support from Israel. (CTV.ca, August 10, 2008)

When viewed in the broader context of the Middle East war, the crisis in Southern Ossetia could lead to escalation, including a direct confrontation between Russian and NATO forces. If this were to occur, we would be facing the most serious crisis in US-Russian relations since the Cuban Missile crisis in October 1962.

Georgia: NATO-US Outpost

Georgia is part of a NATO military alliance (GUAM) signed in April 1999 at the very outset of the war on Yugoslavia. It also has a bilateral military cooperation agreement with the US. These underlying military agreements have served to protect Anglo-American oil interests in the Caspian sea basin as well as pipeline routes.

Both the US and NATO have a military presence in Georgia and are working closely with the Georgian Armed Forces. Since the signing of the 1999 GUAM agreement, Georgia has been the recipient of extensive US military aid.

Barely a few months ago, in early May, the Russian Ministry of Defense accused Washington, "claiming that [US as well as NATO and Israeli] military assistance to Georgia is destabilizing the region." (Russia Claims Georgia in Arms Buildup, Wired News, May 19, 2008). According to the Russian Defense Ministry

"Georgia has received 206 tanks, of which 175 units were supplied by NATO states, 186 armored vehicles (126 - from NATO) , 79 guns (67 - from NATO) , 25 helicopters (12 - from NATO) , 70 mortars, ten surface-to-air missile systems, eight Israeli-made unmanned aircraft, and other weapons. In addition, NATO countries have supplied four combat aircraft to Georgia. The Russian Defense Ministry said there were plans to deliver to Georgia 145 armored vehicles, 262 guns and mortars, 14 combat aircraft including four Mirazh-2000 destroyers, 25 combat helicopters, 15 American Black Hawk aircraft, six surface-to-air missile systems and other arms." (Interfax News Agency, Moscow, in Russian, Aug 7, 2008)

NATO-US-Israeli assistance under formal military cooperation agreements involves a steady flow of advanced military equipment as well as training and consulting services.

According to US military sources (spokesman for US European Command), the US has more than 100 "military trainers" in Georgia. A Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman "said there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors, who he said were stationed in the area around Tblisi" (AFP, 9 August 2008). In fact, US-NATO military presence in Georgia is on a larger scale to that acknowledged in official statements. The number of NATO personnel in Georgia acting as trainers and military advisers has not been confirmed.

Although not officially a member of NATO, Georgia's military is full integrated into NATO procedures. In 2005, Georgian president proudly announced the inauguration of the first military base, which "fully meets NATO standards". Immediately following the inauguration of the Senakskaya base in west Georgia, Tblisi announced the opening of a second military base at Gori which would also "comply with NATO regulations in terms of military requirements as well as social conditions." (Ria Novosti, 26 May 2006).

The Gori base has been used to train Georgian troops dispatched to fight under US command in the Iraq war theater.

It is worth noting that under a March 31, 2006, agreement between Tblisi and Moscow, Russia's two Soviet-era military bases in Georgia - Akhalkalaki and Batumi have been closed down. (Ibid) The pullout at Batumi commenced in May of last year, 2007. The last remaining Russian troops left the Batumi military facility in early July 2008, barely a week before the commencement of the US-Georgia war games and barely a month prior to the attacks on South Ossetia.

The Israel Connection

Israel is now part of the Anglo-American military axis, which serves the interests of the Western oil giants in the Middle East and Central Asia.

Israel is a partner in the Baku-Tblisi- Ceyhan pipeline which brings oil and gas to the Eastern Mediterranean. More than 20 percent of Israeli oil is imported from Azerbaijan, of which a large share transits through the BTC pipeline. Controlled by British Petroleum, the BTC pipeline has dramatically changed the geopolitics of the Eastern Mediterranean and the Caucusus:

"[The BTC pipeline] considerably changes the status of the region's countries and cements a new pro-West alliance. Having taken the pipeline to the Mediterranean, Washington has practically set up a new bloc with Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey and Israel, " (Komerzant, Moscow, 14 July 2006)

While the official reports state that the BTC pipeline will "channel oil to Western markets", what is rarely acknowledged is that part of the oil from the Caspian sea would be directly channeled towards Israel, via Georgia. In this regard, a Israeli-Turkish pipeline project has also been envisaged which would link Ceyhan to the Israeli port of Ashkelon and from there through Israel's main pipeline system, to the Red Sea.

The objective of Israel is not only to acquire Caspian sea oil for its own consumption needs but also to play a key role in re-exporting Caspian sea oil back to the Asian markets through the Red Sea port of Eilat. The strategic implications of this re-routing of Caspian sea oil are far-reaching. (For further details see Michel Chossudovsky, The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil, Global Research, July 2006)

What is envisaged is to link the BTC pipeline to the Trans-Israel Eilat-Ashkelon pipeline, also known as Israel's Tipline, from Ceyhan to the Israeli port of Ashkelon.

"Turkey and Israel are negotiating the construction of a multi-million-dollar energy and water project that will transport water, electricity, natural gas and oil by pipelines to Israel, with the oil to be sent onward from Israel to the Far East,

The new Turkish-Israeli proposal under discussion would see the transfer of water, electricity, natural gas and oil to Israel via four underwater pipelines.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

Baku oil can be transported to Ashkelon via this new pipeline and to India and the Far East.[via the Red sea]"

"Ceyhan and the Mediterranean port of Ashkelon are situated only 400 km apart. Oil can be transported to the city in tankers or via specially constructed under-water pipeline. From Ashkelon the oil can be pumped through already existing pipeline to the port of Eilat at the Red Sea; and from there it can be transported to India and other Asian countries in tankers. (REGNUM)

In this regard, Israel is slated to play a major strategic role in "protecting" the Eastern Mediterranean transport and pipeline corridors out of Ceyhan. Concurrently, it also involved in channeling military aid and training to both Georgia and Azerbaijan.

A far-reaching 1999 bilateral military cooperation agreement between Tblisi and Tel Aviv was reached barely a month before the NATO sponsored GUUAM agreement. It was signed in Tbilisi by President Shevardnadze and Israel's Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyu. These various military cooperation arrangements are ultimately intended to undermine Russia's presence and influence in the Caucasus and Central Asia.

In a pro forma declaration, Tel Aviv committed itself, following bilateral discussions with Moscow, on August 5, 2008, to cut back military assistance to Georgia.

Russia's Response

In response to the attacks, Russian forces intervened with conventional ground troops. Tanks and armored vehicles were sent in. The Russian air force was also involved in aerial counter-attacks on Georgian military positions including the military base of Gori.

The Western media has portrayed the Russian as solely responsible for the deaths of civilians, yet at the same time the Western media has acknowledged (confirmed by the BBC) that most of the civilian casualties at the outset were the result of the Georgian ground and air attacks.

Based on Russian and Western sources, the initial death toll in South Ossetia was at least 1,400 (BBC) mostly civilians. "Georgian casualty figures ranged from 82 dead, including 37 civilians, to a figure of around 130 dead.... A Russian air strike on Gori, a Georgian town near South Ossetia, left 60 people dead, many of them civilians, Georgia says." (BBC, August 9, 2008). Russian sources place the number of civilian deaths on South Ossetia at 2000.

A process of escalation and confrontation between Russia and America is unfolding, reminiscent of the Cold War era.

Are we dealing with an act of provocation, with a view to triggering a broader conflict? Supported by media propaganda, the Western military alliance is intent on using this incident to confront Russia, as evidenced by recent NATO statements.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michel Chossudovsky is the author of the international bestseller Americas "War on Terrorism" Global Research, 2005.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Total posts: 2830
Posted:Pyro, thanks for the information. I dont have a good understanding of the situation, and that story has given a much different account of whats going on, compared to what the media is saying today.

Im inclined to think some of the border disputes probably go back to medieval times. I know Poland has been induced to host the US bases. And when I get a chance, Im going to ask some of my Polish friends what they think of the current situation.

cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Gosh I hope that this G.W. and his accompanying "american century theatre" -period passes soon...

*humms*

All we are saaaying is: give peace a chance...


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well and the EU is turning hippocrite...

Anyone there condemning the Georgian 'invasion' into the break-away regions, performed with US/NATO military aid?

If Serbia walks into Kosovo, Serbia is an aggressor (which they were) - if Georgia walks into South-Ossetia (de facto independent for about a decade now), they are... ???

If NATO comes to help Albanians it's okay, but if Russia comes to help South-Ossetians, it's an aggression.... shrug


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Too true, Fire Tom.

But you have to give it to Putin. Who, not unrealistically given recent history, suggested that the thewar was an American election plot.

RUSSIAN Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused Washington of manufacturing the Georgia conflict as an election strategy to defeat Barack Obama.

Although the conspiracy theory has been circulating since the outbreak of hostilities three weeks ago, the Russian PM's statement stunned US officials.
His remarks drew a swift response from the White House, which said they were "patently false" and even "not rational". The TV comments were delivered shortly after Russia test-fired a new missile.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Interesting aspect, Stone.... maybe not too far from the truth, as Mc Cain needs all the (dirty) support he can possibly get. Wouldn't be the first time the US elections get fuelled (and decided) by warfare.

However I think it's so stunning that the world press - and the EU governments - are condemning Russian official recognition of these territories (not to speak of the "invasion" itself).

Another scapegoat?

IMHO the Russian government is defending civilians from Georgian troops and genocide - on a long term basis. I only welcome that.

Maybe the excitement is because this time it's Russia coming to help and it should be the US? Maybe it's only because the Georgian president did bollocks with NATO weapons and they now try to vocalize it in such way that it's Russia to blame and NATO to the rescue?

I'm a bit confused whether or not people swallow the bait...


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Fire Tom, I too am disappointed that people everywhere seem to be swallowing American propaganda hook line and sinker.

I think it's pretty obvious that America put Georgia up to the invasion of South Ossetia. So it seems ludicrous to suggest that Russian is the aggressor. Furthermore, it's just hypocrisy that America is claiming the high moral ground by pouring billions of dollars in aid into Georgia :rollseyes:

From the historic perspective, America does not come to the aid of another country unless there is a something in it for them. And while on the surface it seems like America is "only"interested in building military bases to ostensibly protect the free world. It's difficult to ignore that "oil pipeline".



EDITED_BY: Stone (1220609096)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:It's not just that oil pipeline - it's about influence and to isolate Russia. Not enough terrorist attacks, we're in desperate need of a new cold war.

Very interesting in this context is that Russia (despite the West' effort) is not playing it's "Gas-card".... the European Union is highly dependent on the supply of natural gas from Russia and they dare to tease the bear by imposing a lot of unreasonable allegations... Russia's reaction is quite relaxed on all this...

Poly-tricks


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

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Posted:Georgias always on my my my my mind...

And thats not just a cheap insert of a Beatles lyric...

My girlfriend is joining the army soon, knowing that this could well escalate into a worldwide conflict scares me.

I try not to think about the reality that this might happen... its bad enough she'll be going away...

Edit: Yeah... I know its probably not the right place to sook... but its how I feel on the whole Georgian conflict...

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1220621985)


hug

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Mother_Natures_Son, I think this conflict scares everyone. I keep posting to protest to the whole futility of it all. Hopefully, it will all be over before your girlfriend finishes her training.


Russia tensions deepen over Georgia

Quote:United States-Russia tensions over Georgia have deepened with US Vice President Dick Cheney casting Moscow as a brutal regime that aims to recapture its Soviet-era dominance.

In the US administration's most hawkish remarks since Russia's five-day war with Georgia last month, Mr Cheney reminded the West of its "responsibilities" and criticised Russia for its "chain of aggressive moves."

Mr Cheney's tough talk came hours after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that Moscow was a "force to be reckoned with," as tensions between Russia and the West soared to heights unseen since the Cold War.

Mr Medvedev accused the United States of rearming Georgia under the guise of humanitarian aid, after Friday's (local time) arrival of the US Navy's Mediterranean flagship at a key Georgian port close to where Russian troops are patrolling.

"I wonder how they would like it if we sent humanitarian assistance using our Navy to countries of the Caribbean that have suffered from the recent hurricanes," Mr Medvedev said.

Moscow has questioned why Washington chose one of its most sophisticated warships, the USS Mount Whitney, to transport aid to Poti. The vessel is the floating command post for the US Navy's Sixth Fleet, based in Italy.

I think Medvedev makes a good point about America following its own advice. In particular, the West recognising its "responsibilities" and discontinues its "chain of aggressive moves.

My thoughts - While evolution has never been a concept that Americans have become comfortable with, hopefully Bush and Cheney are the last the American political dinosaurs, destened for extinction.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1220789998)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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