Forums > Social Discussion > Why we need NATIONALIZED healthcare.

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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So I have now worked as a physician in two different countries with nationalized, single-payer systems. These are the U.K. and Spain. In both countries, the system has its drawbacks and faults. There are delays to receive care, there is bureaucratic run-around, but one thing there is NOT is denial of service. The NHS and the Spanish healthcare systems have nowhere to punt their patients and thus have to take care of them.

I have been told that my healthcare was "inactive" three times this year. I have been charged an inordinate amount of money. I have been denied essential medicine. And if there is more than one payer, they are going to try to punt their expensive patients.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
I think any US citizen will agree with you, but the medical insurance and pharmecutical industries like their money way too much.

So, here's the question...how do we get one, other than by skipping country (which is actually my plan)?

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Pele


So, here's the question...how do we get one, other than by skipping country (which is actually my plan)?



Good question. I think that Hillary and Barak both have good (and similar) ideas. The issue is getting enough funding. It appears that for any organization other than the military, there is always a funding crunch in the U.S. Especially when it comes to health and welfare. Basic policies and services that exist in every other first world country are considered "progressive" here and are only found in large cities.

Maybe it's because I've spent 3 hours on the phone this afternoon trying to secure the benefits to which I'm entitled.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


ChellySILVER Member
Niraffe
884 posts
Location: Up north, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Theoretically, nationalisation is a great idea. And I couldn't agree more with your reasoning. I feel lucky to have been brought up in a country where we have an institution like the NHS.

However, it's funded through taxes, and with the increasingly aging population making more demands on the health service (and not paying taxes through well-deserved retirement etc) it is stretched to breaking point. For example, the last time I was ill and needed to get a doctors appointment, I was told I would have to wait for at least 4 weeks. My brothers girlfriend was in the hospital to have a baby 2 months ago, and they kicked her and the wee one out the next day. Which probably would have been fine, had the baby actually been feeding. eek They saw that (it was documented on her chart) and ignored it for bed space. Negligence at it's finest.

And these are just 2 minor examples. People are dying because they can't get treated with the current health systems in this country, we pay taxes for a health service that is essentially non-existant for people under the age of 60, and the people that do get admitted to the hospitals are frequently contracting infections due to poor hygiene and overcrowding. One of my friends from school died because of this.

All I'm really trying to say is - I agree that it's better to get the poor treated. But you'll still be fighting to get your treatments. And nationalisation of course means they HAVE to treat you. But in some cases, you can be waiting years.

In fact, I've been on a physiotherapy waiting list for the past 4 years. Still haven't heard anything. And don't expect to for another 10..... shrug

"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly

"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus

---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Chelly


Theoretically, nationalisation is a great idea. And I couldn't agree more with your reasoning. I feel lucky to have been brought up in a country where we have an institution like the NHS.

However, it's funded through taxes, and with the increasingly aging population making more demands on the health service (and not paying taxes through well-deserved retirement etc) it is stretched to breaking point.



People keep on bringing up the cost issue.

The United States spends $4,271 annually on healthcare per capita. The UK spends $1,675.

The U.S. does a couple of things that increase healthcare waste. First of all, we don't ensure everyone, meaning that regular health examinations and preventative care are not performed. And then people without insurance come into the ER with a heart attack and the cost goes to the taxpayers. Then there the multiple insurance companies with their bean counters who do nothing but try to deny care. That wastes money. As do expensive therapies given for legal reasons and not medical ones. And then there is futile care. We spend millions of dollars on patients with no reasonable hope of survival because we're afraid of getting sued.

There is a happy medium between not spending enough and providing adequate and timely coverage to those who require it. I think that maintaining privatized hospitals and privatized physicians is a good idea because it will allow individual centers to tailor their services and procedures to suit their respective patient populations. I also think that honest, cost-based reimbursement will encourage superior care and higher efficiency.

But there must be only one nationalized insurance provider, because if there is more than one, then there is such a thing as "not covered." I propose a national healthcare system that is free and public, like the schools. If people would like healthcare with bells and whistles, they can purchase private insurance supplements.

I believe in nominal copays for utilization of urgent/emergent healthcare. It forces people to think twice before going to the doctor for a trivial issue. I believe in them for medicines (up to a certain yearly cap). It prevents people from going to the doctor for everything.

I believe that we can provide quality care to all Americans, and I believe we can do it for about $3,000-$3,500 per capita.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


KaelGotRiceGOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA


Posted:
I think the worst part is that a lot of people I know don't go to the doctor because of (INSURANCE) monetary issues, but then when it all goes to [censored], people end up calling 911 and while they may foot some of the costs, the taxpayers have to foot the rest.

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?

Wildfire/US East coast fire footage

LA/EDC glow/fire footage

Fresno fire


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Yep. And because there is no automatic safety-net healthcare to which everyone is enrolled, free-of-cost, they rack up astronomical healthcare costs.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


BansheeCatBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada


Posted:
Canada is nationaized, though certain sectors of the population are apparently working hard to degrade and dismantle that system and sell medical care as a commercial commodity.

National health care only works if all economic groups of the population are motivated to invest in it. Right now, the wealthy, think they can get better care by just buying it personally,( they probably would, actually) and are no longer interested in the concept of community care and subsidizing the costs of those on the lower income spectrums... But if those people opt out, the resources needed to provide basic care to the remaining people, are not sufficient. There is a lot of debate about the concept of a two tiered medical system.

We are desperately short of regular general physicians in some communities, short of nurses, and specialists too( due to health care cut backs begun a decade ago, we see the consequences now) . I waited a year to see a rheumatologist. I was in severe pain and the permanent joint damage was accelerating due to the constant inflammation... but I still had to wait.

I really do not understand why anyone can think running hospitals and clinics as private for profit businesses is sensible. If there is profit to be made, why not keep it in the public sector, to support the community needs? Why would private inherently be more efficient than public? Bizarre.

Due to a general state of apathy, Canada will likely not offer a national medical coverage for much longer, and we will have to see what private for profit is like...it has already begun. Not looking forward to it.

** oh, and even when covered, many people still do not do much in the way of preventative care. In fact, the doctors themselves rarely make time for it...

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
 Written by :Doc Lightning

...regular health examinations and preventative care are not performed.


Eh?

Even if you're a cold hearted Capitalist pig like me, it's clear that preventative medicine saves money, and that an ailing workforce can't work efficiently.

What the devil's going on over there?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :jeff(fake)


Even if you're a cold hearted Capitalist pig like me, it's clear that preventative medicine saves money, and that an ailing workforce can't work efficiently.

What the devil's going on over there?



"People should take care of themselves. Not my tax dollars."

"Let the free market sort it out."

"Hippie liberal."

I'm just the messenger...

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
The state government has screwed up our welfare system, the last thing I'd want to see is them have any hand in a national healthcare system. They can't even manage specialized funds like for rehab or our state sponsored insurance fund

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :faithinfire


The state government has screwed up our welfare system, the last thing I'd want to see is them have any hand in a national healthcare system. They can't even manage specialized funds like for rehab or our state sponsored insurance fund



Then what is your solution to the problem?

I keep hearing people saying "No nationalized healthcare" but not offering a viable solution. There is no "free market" in healthcare because there are too many reasons why you can't just freely change carriers. So that's not the solution.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Fine_Rabid_DogInternet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...


Posted:
I don't really know what the opinion of Micheal Moore is around here...

But I just watched Sicko and it was a bit of a (albeit biased) eyeopener. What I saw there is basically the same I'm reading here and, from a NHS patient's point of view, it weirds me out a little.

Other than greed and fear of a "communist-style" medical care system... what is the real reason that America doesn't have a NHS-like system? confused

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Fine_Rabid_Dog


Other than greed and fear of a "communist-style" medical care system... what is the real reason that America doesn't have a NHS-like system? confused



You already got it. A fanatical/religious fear of anything socialized.

Look, the NHS is a mess. But Salud España isn't. Nor are many of the other nationalized systems.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


ChellySILVER Member
Niraffe
884 posts
Location: Up north, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Very true.

I saw an interesting idea on the news last night that doctors were putting forward for the NHS. Such as increasing the taxes on health service for those who want better care/more expensive medicines and treatments (such as the cancer medicines that the NHS won't currently fund).

A kind of top-up fee if you will. Not necessarily a bad idea. However the public will be up in arms at any thought of a tax increase in the current economic climate....

Some older info from a couple of weeks ago:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/...nts-849212.html

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7445593.stm

I can't seem to find any info on the report I saw last night about reforming the NHS, I'll maybe have a further look later.

I want to get a job in Spain when this PhD is finished. Better diet, better weather, better (and fairer) healthcare, and the chance to learn another language. What more could any self-respecting person working in healthcare want?

ubbrollsmile

"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly

"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus

---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
 Written by Lightning

You already got it. A fanatical/religious fear of anything socialized.



Honestly Lightning, I don’t see what you are complaining about. Surely, a NATIONALIZED healthcare system is just another example of going down that slippery slope to responsibility.

For example:

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

Civil liberties should win every time. You EDUCATE people to wear bike helmets. And seatbelts. You don't FORCE them to.



Or

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

No, freedom to do with one's own body what one chooses is more important.



Or

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

But what you've failed to justify is how making ME wear a seatbelt protects YOU from ME. It protects ME from YOU, but that should be my choice.



Or

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

And again, I categorically reject the "cost to society" argument because that can be applied to too many draconian rules and regulations.




Ditto, for a NATIONALIZED healthcare system.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


dreamSILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand


Posted:
 Written by :chelly

People are dying because they can't get treated with the current health systems in this country, we pay taxes for a health service that is essentially non-existant for people under the age of 60



confused

God knows what you've been going to the doctor with if you can't get seen... There may be lengthy waiting lists for breast implants and IVF but they're not exactly essential treatments... And you can still get them for free on the NHS.

I'm in my twenties and recently spent a couple of weeks in hospital. And I was damn happy that when I was lying on the floor with my leg smashed to pieces after being hit by a car that I knew the NHS would come along, scoop me up off the road and sort me out for free (ok I really wasn't very happy at that moment in life...but it was relieving to know that people would come and make it better) . Since getting out of hospital whenever I've needed to see a doctor; for more painkillers, for different painkillers, to sort out infected fracture blisters (antibiotics and changing dressing) I've always been able to see someone on the day I ring up free of charge. I've also been going to NHS physio, initially twice a week, now only weekly, but thats still an hour of someone's time spent one to one with me free of charge...

I've also got a teenage sister who suffers from lupus and who's has a lot of hospital and doctor's appointments for the last four or five years... If they'd have had to pay for her treatment my parents would be bankrupt by now. I very much doubt that my sister would be able to get health insurance given her general ill health...

I've got two female friends who've just hit recently hit 30, have had smears and found that they needed surgical procedures to remove pre-cancerous cells. If they hadn't had free check-ups to make sure they were ok they might be in a very bad way by now...

I could go on and on with stories about young people I know who would be censored if it weren't for the NHS. Perhaps with private health care the lucky few who could afford good health care would have had better treatment, but a lot of them (I don't tend to know massively wealthy people) wouldn't have got treated, and wouldn't be the people they are now if we didn't have free health care in the UK.

There are many things I loathe about my country. Despite its flaws the NHS is one of the things I love.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


hamamelisBRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)


Posted:
Generally, I agree- a few weeks ago, I had a pretty horrible eczema flare-up, and they couldn't have been more helpful- I wasn't registered with a doctor, or anything useful, but I still got to see someone within a few hours (I did just miss the pharmacy closing, so didn't get the treatment 'til the following day, but that's not the NHS's fault smile )

However.. My mum has had a really bad experience- with suspected Carpal Tunnel syndrome, where I think it took a year from first complaint to getting a final diagnosis- not even treatment..(it's a nerve trapped in her neck, apparently, and inoperable.. so they can just put her on anti-inflammatories, and hope it doesn't get worse).
It was so bad she couldn't sleep more than about 2 hours without having to wake up and massage feeling back into her hands, she had to basically change jobs- not really a minor condition. They lost her notes, they cancelled appointments.. generally messed around a bit.

It does seem to be the case that it can be a bit hit-and-miss whether you get really prompt care or .. well.. not..

THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Stone



Honestly Lightning, I don’t see what you are complaining about. Surely, a NATIONALIZED healthcare system is just another example of going down that slippery slope to responsibility.




I don't follow your logic.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :hamamelis


However.. My mum has had a really bad experience- with suspected Carpal Tunnel syndrome, where I think it took a year from first complaint to getting a final diagnosis- not even treatment..(it's a nerve trapped in her neck, apparently, and inoperable.. so they can just put her on anti-inflammatories, and hope it doesn't get worse).



But that's not just the NHS. It took me a year to get diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, during which time I was in horrible back pain.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Try this:



Surely, a NATIONALIZED healthcare system is just another example of going down that slippery pole to becoming a "Nanny" state.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Stone


Try this:

Surely, a NATIONALIZED healthcare system is just another example of going down that slippery pole to becoming a "Nanny" state.



Providing people with a service is not equal to forcing them to use it. I fail to follow your logic, still.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


hamamelisBRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)


Posted:
 Written by :Doc Lightning


 Written by :hamamelis


However.. My mum has had a really bad experience- with suspected Carpal Tunnel syndrome, where I think it took a year from first complaint to getting a final diagnosis- not even treatment..(it's a nerve trapped in her neck, apparently, and inoperable.. so they can just put her on anti-inflammatories, and hope it doesn't get worse).



But that's not just the NHS. It took me a year to get diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, during which time I was in horrible back pain.



I don't claim the NHS has a monopoly on messing around, but they can be pretty impressive at it on occasion. That was not a difficult condition to diagnose, or an unusual one- she was told it should have been a few months to get the test, the delay was wholly due to them messing around.

But yes, I love the fact that here we don't have people who can't afford to get problems looked at or treated, I love the fact we don't have to phone the bank before we phone an ambulance. The NHS has issues, but we only complain so much about it 'cos we're so used to it working that we only notice the problems.

THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
 Written by Lightning

Providing people with a service is not equal to forcing them to use it. I fail to follow your logic, still.



Lightning, it’s not about logic, it’s about consistency. Mandatory health care, like mandatory seat belts, is a threat to personal liberties.

 Written by wiki

Opponents of government programs for universal health care argue that people should be free to opt out of health insurance and that government programs would require higher taxes, increase bureaucratic inefficiencies, increase utilization, and reduce health care quality. Opponents also claim that the current level of government involvement in US health care contributes to higher costs, and point to free-market solutions to increase efficiency, stimulate innovation, and make consumers rather than third parties more responsible for cost decisions.



You make a big case about loosing perceived personal freedoms in regard to mandatory seat belts, but then turn around and make a case for mandatory health care.

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

The idea is that we have to let people look out for their own best interests and make decisions for themselves as competent adults. But we should let them make their own decisions. You can make arguments about costs to society and money and blah blah, but there is no price tag for liberty.



Yes it’s a silly argument, but not as silly as the argument that that values the perceived personal freedom of adults above the cost to society.

So, I suppose the question to ask is why the USA is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system? Especially, as current estimates put US health care spending at approximately 15% of GDP, the highest in the world (wiki).

Is that not one of the price tags for “perceived” personal liberty?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :Stone



Lightning, it’s not about logic, it’s about consistency. Mandatory health care, like mandatory seat belts, is a threat to personal liberties.




I reject the logic as illogical. Healthcare is a right. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it. Just to pay for it. It's no different than taxing people for roads.

Furthermore, many people don't have healthcare not because they choose not to, but because they don't have jobs that provide it and such jobs are not available.

Comparing healthcare to bike helmets is utter non-sequitur.

 Written by

Yes it’s a silly argument, but not as silly as the argument that that values the perceived personal freedom of adults above the cost to society.



I'm glad you aren't calling the shots, then. Your philosophy alarms me. You would force me to engage in activities that have no bearing on anyone else, yet deny healthcare to those who need it.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


dreamSILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand


Posted:
 Written by :Jeff

Even if you're a cold hearted Capitalist pig like me, it's clear that preventative medicine saves money, and that an ailing workforce can't work efficiently.




But if you have a privatized health care system every ailment is a generator of growth. Every new cancer case is good for the economy. Someone's sickness creates highly skilled well paid work for other people. Labour is cheap. Chemotherapy isn't. It may not be sensible... it certainly isn't sustainable... But then that's capitalism for you.

Hence why the people who think that way are labeled cold hearted pigs. smile

 Written by :Stone

Mandatory health care, like mandatory seat belts, is a threat to personal liberties.



confused confused confused

 Written by

Opponents of government programs for universal health care argue that people should be free to opt out of health insurance



Oh I geddit... Rich people don't like the thought of having to help look after poor people. Especially when they can buy their own private health care. The rich exercising their personal freedom to condemn poor people to agonizing deaths or lives marred by treatable diseases or injuries left to fester.

What lovely folk those free market capitalists are.

But the argument for nationalized health care perpetuates the same phenomenon of selecting who does and who doesn't get free health care at the level of nation states.

What is needed is not national health care but universal health care.

I don't care if someone is from Britain or Botswana, The United States or the United Arab Emirates, Australia or Armenian a human being is a human being and we should all have access to free health care.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by :dream


I don't care if someone is from Britain or Botswana, The United States or the United Arab Emirates, Australia or Armenian a human being is a human being and we should all have access to free health care.



I agree. Except for one problem: healthcare uses resources. A lot of them.

And so someone has to pay for it. Who? How?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
 Written by Lightning

Comparing healthcare to bike helmets is utter non-sequitur.



Lightning, I agree the whole libertarian argument is farcical. But it’s only non-sequitur when people only look at one side of the issue. Wearing seat belts is just another aspect of health care. Protecting people from themselves, whether through buckling up or having health cover, is really the same thing. In both situations, you are protecting me for me.

The only difference, I can see, is that mandatory seat belts affect people directly on a day to day basis. Where as a mandatory health care system is indirect. But in both situations, people loose their freedom to choose. And, isn’t that what the whole helmet argument was about - the freedom to choose regardless of the cost to society. Or to put it another way, the personal freedoms argument only comes up when it is expedient.

 Written by Lightning helmet thread

The idea is that we have to let people look out for their own best interests and make decisions for themselves as competent adults. But we should let them make their own decisions. You can make arguments about costs to society and money and blah blah, but there is no price tag for liberty.



Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a great that you are prepared to change your point of view, and put the costs to society argument above the personal freedoms argument.

 Written by Lightning

You would force me to engage in activities that have no bearing on anyone else, yet deny healthcare to those who need it.



I’m not forcing you to do anything, and I’m not denying anyone health care. I’m just pointing out how your system works. Having an accident while not wearing a seat belt does have a bearing on other people. But that was a cost that you were prepared to overlook in the helmet thread. Not wearing a seat belt or not having health cover both put burdens on society.

Don’t take this the wrong way, I am for health care. I'm just saying the argument against seat belts is just a silly as the argument against a Nationalized health care system. There is a price for liberty, and overlooking that price is the fatal flaw that comes up in all the selfish personal freedom arguments.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Stone- perhaps it would help if you'd clarify how you think a national health service limits choice- exactly what choices are limited?

Lightning is talking about a nationalised health service- presumably optional in all ways- in the UK the NHS runs alongside privatised health i.e. those who have money and prefer to pay for health care can choose the private option.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
 Written by OWD

Lightning is talking about a nationalised health service- presumably optional in all ways- in the UK the NHS runs alongside privatised health i.e. those who have money and prefer to pay for health care can choose the private option.





So, you are saying health care is free in the UK for those who don’t choose the private option. And people don’t have to pay a levy or tax to use the health care system if they don’t want to.



I suggest Lightning has already answered your question.



 Written by Fine Rabid Dog

Other than greed and fear of a "communist-style" medical care system... what is the real reason that America doesn't have a NHS-like system?



 Written by Lightning

You already got it. A fanatical/religious fear of anything socialized.







I take a fanatical/religious fear of anything socialized to be similar to the nanny state argument.



I not against national heath care. I just don’t understand the logic when people use the nanny state argument when it threatens their perceived personal liberties like having to buckle up, then turn around and support the nanny sate when it starts to cost them.







And, I posted this earlier:



 Written by wiki on the health care debate in the USA

Opponents of government programs for universal health care argue that people should be free to opt out of health insurance and that government programs would require higher taxes, increase bureaucratic inefficiencies, increase utilization, and reduce health care quality. Opponents also claim that the current level of government involvement in US health care contributes to higher costs, and point to free-market solutions to increase efficiency, stimulate innovation, and make consumers rather than third parties more responsible for cost decisions.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1215351265)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Stone,

I've read your post.

I'm sorry. You are making no sense. Requiring people to pay for a nationalized healthcare is no more a threat to their individual liberties or choice than making them pay for the military, public schools or roads. That's called taxes. It's a fact of life. Right up there with death.

Providing a service is in no way related to, comparable to, or even remotely in resemblance to requiring a behavior.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


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