• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Tax (evasion) - your opinions please

Login/Join to Participate

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Under the impression of recent events I would like to ask for your opinion on taxes and those trying to evade (errm avoid) them.

I understand that the government needs to raise taxes in order to finance itself and a number of government run institutions (like schools) and social benefits (like general health care) and projects (like employment services).

There are myriads of sectors that are financed with (y/our) tax money, some are more of your liking (like Schools and Universities) - others may be less (like the military or subsidies for industry).

There is actually a lot of stuff that 'just works' and we don't even notice because we are so used to see it and take it for granted. Most of that stuff 'just works' because most of us pay taxes.

Your property - property tax
Your Internet - service tax
Your PC/laptop - sales tax

Pretty much on each and every thing today there is some kind of tax.

Some taxes are more fair than others.

Now there are people who try to evade tax to some or the other degree. Those who work (self employed) can file for a tax return by collecting slips of papers (bills).

The more tax you pay, the more you can claim back (usually)

Some of the procedures to evade taxes are perfectly legal, other are completely illegal.

I would be interested in your opinion about taxes, what you regard useful/ necessary and what not, what you regard unfair and what the government does with it, what you think about people who evade taxes with il/legal methods...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete Topic

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:There are only two inevitable things in this world; death and taxes - Oscar Wilde (?)
(or something along those lines)


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well Jon - that is subject of debate... errm, the latter not the former part of this quote.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I have an unequal opinion on the matter. Hate me later.

Rich people evading - don't be so cheap you filth.

Poor people evading - stick it to the man!!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Don't get the second part of that one...

"stick it to the man" confused Lingo-probs...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:oh, sorry.

I'm trying to say that I support poor people standing up to the government.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

NathanielEverist
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 315
Posted:The government spends our taxes as it pleases, usually not how they should. Our representative government in Australia and other parts of the world is flawed. We vote every 4 years and once a political party gains power, they are free to do as they please. Of course the Senate and Governor General are designed to prevent the Cabinet from behaviour undemocratically, but when Gough Whitlam was dismissed by the Governor General in the Constitutional Crisis of 1975, there was public outcry from many people. Possibly due to this, or other factors, (such as the monarchy not wishing to tempt fate in a nation already contemplating a republic) government can normally do as it pleases, as the Liberal Party was free to do in their previous term due to having majority power in both the House of Representatives and the Senate.

Back on track, the Government spends as it so desires, often regardless of public desire. So, in my mind, evading your taxes is more democratic, especially if you didn't vote your current government into power. What you should do, is evade taxes, but with the money you save (after counting factors such as benefits offered by the government for paying taxes, risk factor of performing tax fraud etc), you should invest it charitably into areas that YOU SO DESIRE THEM TO BE INVESTED INTO. If everybody did this, government would fall apart, but more importantly, it would be a truly democratic method of tax spending, as the more people that feel that the environment is an issue, or perhaps the military, the more "taxes" in the form of donations, organisations of these areas would receive. It would also more likely mean that your money would directly go to benefiting you, rather than being spent on another state or a Uranium Mine or something else that you may be opposed to.

Obviously if too many people did this, it would cause the government to fail, meaning a replacement would be necessary (committee of super-computers anyone?), but that is a different argument altogether. Although should the government realise what is happening, they may change their ways and start ACTUALLY representing the people's wishes.

Whenever you are contemplating whether you should pay taxes or not, consider how much your government gets paid, how much of your money will go to the destruction of the environment, on "free" money to car manufacturers like Toyota and other areas that you find despicable. IF you feel up to it, pay your taxes, but pay them the way you think they should be paid. That way, although you are breaking the law, you are not morally culpable, and in my opinion, are actually encouraging effective democracy.

*whew*, sorry for the long post.


Delete

Fearpig
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

Fearpig

member - tee hee "member"
Location: Bethnal Green, London, England...

Total posts: 279
Posted:Tax is a fantastic concept.... wait for it!
When its used correctly!

Warning: <soapbox>

e.g.
In the UK firms are now taxed on the volume and type of packaging that accompanies any product they sell, this is weighted so that companies save money by moving their packaging towards more ecofriendly (recyclable) materials
= Good Tax

Gordon Brown recently tried to abolish the 10p tax which would have resulted in a the poor being poorer and the rich being richer!
= Bad Tax!

Without a system of tax roads / schools / hospitals become the reserve of those who can pay (... American Health Service?)! As such evading tax is BAD... but avoiding it where you can... well!

</soapbox>

Almost went into a ruge rant!


"Whats wrong with the cat?" - Mrs Schrdinger

Delete

NathanielEverist
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 315
Posted:Fearpig:

Agreed, it comes down to whether you trust your government enough to do the right thing with taxpayers money. Personally, I don't. Although I do applaud the UK government's recent strides towards greater environmental friendliness, I wish Australia's government would do something about it... frown


Delete

hamamelis
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

hamamelis

nut.
Location: Bouncing off the walls., Engla...

Total posts: 756
Posted:I remember my Dad telling me how he once had a summer job smashing up working road machinery for the local council- they had to use they whole budget every year, or it would be cut, so when they really needed to buy something new, they wouldn't have the funds.. unless they destroyed some of the stuff they were using each year.

The thought of paying taxes towards that.. sort of.. annoys me, a teensy bit.

On the other hand, I virtually live in the -tax funded- libraries, which I'm sure some people would object to paying for.

Part of the problem I have is that it's easier for richer people to find (approximately legal) ways to avoid paying taxes- with offshore tax havens, creative accountancy and the like, whereas people with less money are pretty much stuck. It can wind up being another way of keeping up the wealth gap..


THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I agree with everyone about what our taxes go towards. I'd be much happier if my taxes were spent on public transport and not all those stupid roads.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:I agree with paying tax and not avoiding paying it

I am happy to pay for services I don't use (e.g., childcare, rail etc.) as there are plenty of services I do use

in any society I am not gong to use all services, but they need to be available for the whole of society

otherwise, the other option is 'user pays' and I most certainly do not agree with that

I agree with a government providing essential services and infrastructure - and I beleive these should never be controlled by private enterprise

whilst I acknowledge they system is not perfect as to how the money is used, it is important to continue contributing and working for a more efficient use of the taxes

I accept that as part of a society I make a contribution to the effective functioning of that society

ubbrollsmile


Delete

simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings, England (UK)

Total posts: 1182
Posted:tax isnt a bad thing in essence. just seems all the people that should be paying it, aren't

i.e rich people that move to tax-havens. big business that uses the amount of jobs and wealth it brings to countries as a way of avoiding tax


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Only as a thought to ponder:

Money yesterday has been in form of coins and bills. Money today is in form of eCash.

Usually it gets stored in a bank. Whatever happens with money that ain't subject to taxes: it inevitably participate in the big system - from a larger point of view, you can't 'waste' money, even if you'd burn it.

Example: Briatore (the F1 millionaire) moves to a tax haven, like Monaco. He doesn't pay taxes (in Italy) but he puts his money into a bank, the bank invests this money in companies, which in return employ people.
He might buy himself a 20 Million Dollar Yacht... that money funds all the people and their families who built and sold the yacht to him, they will buy a car, a house or maybe only a toy doll for their children for Christmas......

Just a thought to ponder.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
Posted:I'm happy to pay high taxes providing I feel I'm not being penalised; I don't see why I should be lumped with extra medicare because of my income for instance. I get highly annoyed when various "benefits" are stripped because I can, apparently, afford it, and I'm thinking of Rudd and his removal of family tax benefit, solar power rebate etc; I've put a lot of effort into getting highly qualified and performing an in-demand occupation so expect financial reward.

Ultimately, I never used to get creative accounting, now I do (here investment proprties are tax deductable, I also have a do-er upper house. It's amazing how often the unit needs repainting 'cause of the smoker living in it). Quid pro quo.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

Delete

NathanielEverist
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 315
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Example: Briatore (the F1 millionaire) moves to a tax haven, like Monaco. He doesn't pay taxes (in Italy) but he puts his money into a bank, the bank invests this money in companies, which in return employ people.
He might buy himself a 20 Million Dollar Yacht... that money funds all the people and their families who built and sold the yacht to him, they will buy a car, a house or maybe only a toy doll for their children for Christmas......

Just a thought to ponder.



Yes, that's how a capitalist economy works, most people don't like it, but it does have it's merits. The downside of the example you gave is that the people who made that yacht would've worked hard to make it, toiling away, and they may not get enough money from it's sale to buy a house, in fact, I severely doubt they will. The yacht's production would've been split between many people, probably within a business, and after production and advertising costs and taxes (which they may have to pay) the money made would not be 20 million. What money they do make would be split among the workers, but the majority would probably go towards the owner of the yacht manufacturing company, who for all we know didn't actually do anything but invest the capital into the company for it's establishment and operation. It's possible that the people who made the yacht are only getting enough money to put food on their plates for a week.

That aside, there is still the fact that the yacht makers are working for their money, while Briatore simply pays others to make him money so he can buy a yacht without actually doing any "work". The rich get richer, while in most cases the poor either stay poor or get poorer (or in very rare cases become middle-class).

Just a counter-thought to ponder.


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I get your point - I guess.

In said example, the 20million is the 'selling prize'... not the manufacturing prize.

However, fact of the matter is that most people work for someone else, may he manufacture yachts or clean windows.

I'm not a friend of capitalism, don't get me wrong. I'm all for communism (which has never been practiced so far)...

Thought is that the more you earn, the more taxes you should pay. Some highly disagree and think that the more you earn the least you should have to pay, they do feel penalized by a progressive tax rate - which directly leads to tax evasion.

If you feel you have put a lot of effort into a higher education, then think about who built the schools and educated the teachers that provided you with this education in the first place.

The attitude that "I'm so highly skilled and should get rewarded accordingly" is what keeps highly skilled people from becoming teachers. Instead they work for a company, get sent to India or China and train people there... Okay this is a bit extreme example...

Some say that taxes should be abolished altogether and everything should run on a competitive base... Not sure how this will then work out for challenged people, the old or in the sector of education.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

NathanielEverist
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

NathanielEverist

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 315
Posted:Yes, most people do work for somebody else, it's just that when you get to the top, you don't work for anybody, and you pay people to make you far more money than they could ever earn. It's a strange system...

I disagree with a progressive tax-rate. The tax rate should be on how much you earn. That way, the more you earn the more you pay, but not a rise in the actual tax-rate itself. This may stop people from evading taxes.

The fact that taxes can be evaded at all is ridiculous and is indicative of a necessity to legislate against it's occurrence.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean with the teacher example. Could you elaborate?


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I mean that often those who got skills turn to personal profit and not necessarily let society as a whole benefit in terms of educating them.

Personally I met quite a few who would favor working for the industry, rather than becoming professors at University. Resulting in a lack of teachers - but we're coming offtopic.

One more point is, that the more money you earn the more taxes you can avoid. Buy a house (on mortgage), finance a car - or just buy a flat and don't even rent it out. The monthly loss would deduct from tax, at the same time property prices will rise (short supply - high demand).

A progressive tax rate would aim more into the direction of socialism/ communism... I earn, therefore I pay (lots) more.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [tax evasion opinion*] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > Art discussion (plz giv ur opinion) [43 replies]
2. Forums > Tax (evasion) - your opinions please [18 replies]
3. Forums > Motivations and Opinions [10 replies]
4. Forums > a system to beat the tax man? [11 replies]
5. Forums > which countries have tax for shopping from home of poi? [7 replies]

     Show more..