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Forums > Other Toys > Making a set of Buugeng (s-staves)??? Please Help

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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:I just looked into buying a pair of buugeng but was quite depressed to find that it would cost around $130 to buy a set. That is currently out of my price range but by the looks of them, the construction seems quite simple. If anybody owns a pair, has made them before, knows of a cheaper place to buy or could help me at all, please comment back. thanks biggrin

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WildThing


WildThing

miss beelzeboss
Location: Zagreb , Croatia =)

Total posts: 41
Posted:why not try making them on your own :P

You make my heart sing..you make everything..GROOVEY .. yeah =) xD

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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:That's what I'm hoping to do.. however it would be a lot easier if someone could give me specs and/or any other construction details??? biggrin

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WildThing


WildThing

miss beelzeboss
Location: Zagreb , Croatia =)

Total posts: 41
Posted:sorry , i cant help you with buugengs .. but i carved myself a staff smile it bloody briliant ..has wicked ornaments..
well... i wish you luck with finding a expirienced person smile


You make my heart sing..you make everything..GROOVEY .. yeah =) xD

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Skatto
GOLD Member since Jan 2007

Skatto

Walking on whims...
Location: Eastbourne, UK

Total posts: 687
Posted:Don't think I could help you much :-\

But they are, essentially, two boomerang-like shapes screwed and magnetised together.

They're fairly thin on the edges...

They're not actually an 'S' shape... there's a straight line connecting the two curves, which serves as the handle/grip.

Sorry, dunno why I'm posting, you probably already know all that. tongue


Skatto

"Fly like a mouse,
Run like a cushion,
Be the small bookcase."

For goodness sake, don't aggravate the otters!!!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:We patterned ours more off of Michael Moschen before Dai made his available for sale but we have S-curve Staves. I'm not sure how Dai's are done because ours are different, they have more "hook" to them so that we can do hang stunts. So while I can't tell you how to make a Buugeng, I can tell you how to make an "S" curved staff.



We made them out of 1/2 inch oak, which is actually not as heavy as you would think.



We looked up fonts for swooping s's online and printed the one we wanted. There are *alot* to choose from that have the long straight length in the middle, btw. I think ours was taken from an "S" series car logo, or some such. We then determined a mid-point to cut it (to make the "c") and then used that to create templates for different sizes.



Then we clamped two boards of oak together, traced the pattern on the top one and cut it with a jigsaw. It took alot of filing and sanding to get them sloped the way we wanted. It's important to keep them clamped together so that they are uniform. We connected them with a screw and industrial craft magnets from the local craft store. We used counter sunk the screw and used one of those plastic wall protectors to keep the screw from chewing the wood when we flick it open. We also thinned the middle "handle" area little by little, testing the grip to make sure it fit our hands. That was something we learned by trail and error.

The magnets we sunk as well, and attached using industrial epoxy.



I also forgot to say that my brother is working on adding a "flip clip", a metal clip to the side to hold them in place better.



The largest we have is 3 feet from tip to tip.

The smallest is 1 1/2 ft.



The oak can be stained, painted, whatever to suit you...or just left if you like.



Like I said, these *are not* buugengs, just generic s-curves. We don't own a set of buugeng so we don't know any of the dimensions, or construction of them. My guess is that Dai's are more "universal" for any user, and probably smoother and of a much higher quality since they are production quality. His also seem to be...less of an "S" to me (not a criticism btw, just an observation). Ours are very "S"

EDITED_BY: Pele (1212757403)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:Thanks soooo much pele!!! beerchug Do you sell them then??? And if so what would it run me for a set?

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simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

simta

compfuzzled
Location: hastings

Total posts: 1182
Posted:do you have a pic of those pele?

i was thinking about making/getting some, but do prefer the more pronounced s-shape.

as you said hanging stuff becomes possible, also the circular space created with two together can be fun to play with.


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Kevin, we don't sell them, sorry. They'd be too hard for us to produce to sell. They took quite a bit of time. It was worth it from a personal point of view, but still took awhile.

simta, when it stops raining I'll pull them out and take a pic for you.
I think our next set will be based more on a dissected oval than on an "s", for a greater "hook".

Glad to be of service. beerchug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Just a quickie...
I think it's worth noting the difference beween buugeng and s-staffs.
S-staffs is the generic term for er... s-shaped staffs.
Buugeng, as far as I'm aware, are Dai's own design, especially with regards to both the shape of the prop, and the folding aspect including the magnets.

Personally, I think it would be a bit "off" to make a copy of the buugeng. Dai isn't some massive prop maker, he's a dedicated performer who offers his custom-made props at a fair price.

However, making a pair of 2-staffs, even out of wood is a different thing entirely and as far as i know there's no claims on the design whatsoever.

Obviously, I'm not Dai, and I hope i'm not putting words in his mouth.
It would be the same as making your own glow-poi, or making a set of hyperlights...


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:Thanks for the clarification Durbs. smile

However, while I do not mean to make this into an argument, I disagree on a few of your points. For one, this is an art form and I don't think Dai (also not meaning to put words in his mouth) is in it for the profit. It's not like I'm trying to mass produce these things I just really love the way they look and would like to share this love with the people around me. Isn't that what spinning and juggling (and other object manipulation) is about??

I do respect Dai for his creativeness and personality (as seen in his tutorials on youtube and HOP.) I believe Bugengs are an innovation in the spinning community and it's only a matter of time before they get picked up by other companies.

Furthermore, people do make there own glow-poi and hyperlights, or things similar, all the time.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. I probably will end up buying a set at some point but I think it'll be fun to try to make a set. biggrin

-Kevin


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Just to clarify further - especially the "people do make there own glow-poi and hyperlights".
They make their own glow-poi, but no-one tries to make hyperlights (specifically). As in reverse engineers them to make an identical set...
That's what I see as the difference - i'll reword my last sentance:

It's the difference between making your own glow poi, or making a set of "hyperlights"

Glow-poi is generic, Hyperlights are specific designs with specific features.
Likewise, s-staffs are a generic prop-type. You can make them in any guise you see fit -wood, metal, collapsible, fire etc etc.
"Buugeng" is someone else's design of s-staff with their own unique points smile


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:unfortunately, I agree with durbs.



I think it's very off to copy somebodies unique prop, at any time, especially when they are offering it for sale. I've copied other people's props, but never as exactly as people are talking about here, and never when they're on sale. I don't teach other people how to make them.... I mean, if you're gonna commit plagiarism, you might as well change it a little to make it look like your own work, and you certainly shouldn't be encoraging others to do the same thing...



Dai may not make a profit, but I don't want him to not make a living. If I ever want to make a living performing, then a little support of other artists is surely good karma? And since he's selling it, clearly he doesn't mind you purchasing it and using it... so why not support him?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:I think, I could write here a brief technical detail
for 'personal purpose only' soon.

erere taku buugeng,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:Okay if it makes you happier I'll call the kev-staffs. biggrin

I see what you're saying but I feel you're blowing out of proportion. I'm 17 and poor, not some shady guy trying to steal an idea. I'd like to see how his staffs work so I can make something similar, possibly with some personal improvements or touches and definitely cheaper. Because while they are "affordable" to most, I am currently unemployed except for entertaining at party's and whatnot and $130 is something I can't afford at the moment... frown

Anyways. All the best to you all. And Richee, that would be much appreciated biggrin

-Kevin


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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted: Written by :kevin_the_local


I see what you're saying but I feel you're blowing out of proportion. ...


Yes and No Kevin - I agree totally with Durbs.
If you are going to try and make an exact replica of Dai's Buugeng then please don't. If you're going to make a generic shape that looks like Dai's (but also other people's S-Staves) then that's a different story and feel free to go ahead.

When COL2007 came out (in fact BEFORE it came out) we started talking to Dai about the possibility of making and selling Buugeng through HoP. Dai didn't want to then because he wanted to be in touch with all the people who were into Buugeng to help them and grow the interest. We convinced him that having the lessons on HoP would help in this regard so he's done that and there's still a chance he will let us make Buugeng available through HoP in the future. In the meantime we wait.

What's to stop us making our own version of them and selling them? Nothing - except our own sense of decency. And is it any difference us doing that instead of a poor student? Maybe, but I don't think so as our reasoning would not be to make loads of money off someone else's idea because in all honesty there probably wouldn't be that many sold - our reasoning would be to make them more available as Dai is not well set up to do that compared to us. But we haven't and we won't because it's not right. We might in the future bring out our own fire S-Staff but the only way we will bring out a Buugeng is by collaboration with Dai.

There is a difference. And "poor student" does not make it any more right than if we did it.

/soapbox


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted: Written by

georgemc

If you are going to try and make an exact replica of Dai's Buugeng then please don't.





If I wouln't find Buugeng I would and I can't stop!



-----------------------------------



If I put here a technical detail of them, will I do something wrong?



I think, not. I'd love more people with crystall Poi..



open source league,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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marcbs
BRONZE Member since Jun 2008

marcbs

member
Location: MN

Total posts: 28
Posted:Perhaps Z-staves.. then you would need to do everything backwards.

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akgraphics
SILVER Member since Jun 2006

akgraphics

member
Location: Churchill College, Cambridge

Total posts: 133
Posted:On a purely practical note, before I bought my Buugeng I was in exactly the same situation as you Kevin! I'm a student, and saw Dai's videos of S-staffs, and thought to myself "why not make my own?". I soon found out.

So I basically just drew freehand two S-shapes onto some scrap ply in my dad's garage, and cut them out with a jigsaw, and then sanded them down. They looked AWFUL smile it's so hard to cut out a nice smooth sinuous shape. I don't know what curve Dai uses, but I used a mathematical sine wave. And now I only had a 2D-shape of an S-staff. To spin this flat shape was also AWFUL it was flapping about everywhere and impossible to use.

Moral of the story? To make it work you need a nice 3D shape, not simply a cut-out of an S-curve, to make it spin properly. And to make a 3D shape, like Pele described, takes a lot of effort.

And its that tremendous amount of effort that makes buying these things worthwhile. My disastrous DIY project convinced me to just bite the bullet and buy some from Dai, and I've never looked back! smile

Much luck to you if you try to make some yourself, but be warned - the amount of time and effort it will take, you may as well save up for the Buugeng from Dai.


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kevin_the_local
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

Member
Location: California

Total posts: 9
Posted:Thank you everyone for your input biggrin. I suppose I'll just have to start saving for now.

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GeoffonTour04
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

enthusiast
Location: Oxford

Total posts: 360
Posted:Unless you're making it for profit I don't think there's any problem with trying to make your own props. If kev can't afford one then Dai isn't losing any potential profit, and as long as he doesn't try to produce them from profit himself I can't see anything wrong with that.

As has already been pointed out, depending on your woodworking skills they'll not be the same quality (or even vaguely similar in shape or profile) so you'll want to upgrade eventually anyway.

Hundreds of people make their own props, it means you can have something unique, that's exactly as you want it (or at least close), and not have to pay as much.

That said, anyone who can afford them should buy em, and much respect to Dai for the effort they must have taken.


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Rellizate
GOLD Member since Feb 2007

Rellizate

old hand
Location: Cambridge, UK

Total posts: 719
Posted:I agree completly with GT04. If you're not planning on selling them, by all means make the things I say.

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ElectricBlue
SILVER Member since Feb 2002

ElectricBlue

Now with extra strawberries
Location: Canberra

Total posts: 810
Posted:Yes making and designing your own similar set seems fine to me but asking for people to reveal the technical detail that were probably worked on for a long time and give instructions on a public forum isn't fair.
EDITED_BY: Blueberry (1213142820)


I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link




They look more like two grass-hooks nailed by handle, but for higher plant,

each one s-steve is from one piece wood sliced on half. They have two

flat magnets to lock the handles.



--------------------------------------------



This is not instruction how to, this is only and only

highlighting of technical improvement.



do not replicate buugeng,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:So I now seem to get the ubbidea



Correct me if I'm wrong:



Buugeng are S-Staff and have the difference that they appear like two sickels, joined together at the handles. The major difference to S-Staffs is the blade-like appearance of the two ends...



Question to those with (professional) experience (and who had them in their hands already), like you George: What exactly - apart from the name - you reckon can legally be copyrighted on this one?



Don't get me wrong please, I'm all for intellectual property, licensing, etc. and I don't favour 1:1 copies. Out of my personal experience I know what it takes to make a good and solid toy: It takes so much work, time, expertise, material and quality tools, that by the time you copied/ made your own, you could have just as well purchased it from the (original) manufacturer.



The one reason why some are able to make a (small) margin on some products/ toys is that they have the routine to make good quality products, buy material in bulk or mass produce them cheaply in China...



You can copy ones design 1:1 and live with the knowledge that by doing so so just diminished some heroes chance to survive by his own means - but you made it yourself... great.



My suggestion is that you either: improve or alter the design to a degree that makes it ... a unique design, something new.



It's like... copying the name of this website and registering it on a different extension... = ethically questionable and bound to fail under the laws of Karma.



Hence I am very much for development. Like "open source" for Vista or MS Office...



And now, after viewing the vid: they are amazingly beautiful... Dai you did a great job! Congratulations smile

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1213563894)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:So let me get this right: Dai got inspired by Moschen to design Buugeng?

Is that what it is? Enlighten me...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Frozeninferno


newbie


Total posts: 1
Posted:Honestly I just took a two by four and drew the general shape on it. Jig saw and sand. And Buuneng are not really his idea. They've been in use far longer than all of us have been alive. Aboriginals, remember? He's the one to popularize the set. Also, I've seen a couple of sites selling the same style. If anything, you should get mad at them.

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:Where have you found other s-shaped staves for sale? I haven't seen any other than the Buugeng for sale. I love the folding design Dai has and am happy to wait for the restock, but Im always curious to see what other makers are coming up with.

"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:Frozeninferno, I am interested - how pronounced are the curves on your s-staves?

I'm not certain that we're all on the same page here, mate. Growing up in Australia, I've never really read about indigenous Australians performing waistwraps with hinged s-staves.

The two-by-four wood that you took - how did you jigsaw an s-shape with a straight piece of wood?

I easily bored with the direction that many 'exotic' firetoys take - I'm of the belief that Dai's creation constitutes genuine innovation.

Even if he did take the idea from Aboriginals


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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ElectricBlue
SILVER Member since Feb 2002

ElectricBlue

Now with extra strawberries
Location: Canberra

Total posts: 810
Posted:I'm also curious about what aboriginal item is simialar to the Buugeng and used in the same way. It kinda looks slightly like two boomerang stuck together but they were used for throwing and would not work if you stuck two of them together.

I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well - triple that curiosity on Aboriginal origins of Buugeng...

Anyway I do believe that Dai made a wonderful design - just by looking at the pictures. Beautiful curves. And this is where I see a unique development from the S-curved staff that Moschen was and the rest of us are using...

Whereas the 'traditional handling' has got nothing to do with anything, as IMO 'slide didjes' are a unique invention too - even though it's one of the oldest instruments known to man.


If Buugeng are collapsible and still stable then it's a very nice feature in addition. In the past, staff have been collapsible OR stable (after a few drops however).

And if Dai has blended S-curves and Boomerangs - THAT IS a unique and genuine invention... IMHO

Thus I feel - only from what I have heard so far - that Buugeng is unique and therefore should definitely not be copied for commercial resale - unless there is a significant, unique development from Dai's Buugeng...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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