• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Youth violence in the UK - what the $*! is happening?

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:"Interesting" news coming from the UK...

Adults in scare of youths, kids scraed of each other only leaving their homes armed. Teens threatened with disfiguration of death when they cross invisibles lines in their neighbourhood or support the 'wrong' soccer club.

Knife attacks on the rise, one case of teen murder after the other. Robert Knox killed, Amar Aslam killed, two fathers killed in Bradford and Bristol, one dragged out of his car and stabbed, the other one stabbed as he tried to mediate a fight outside a pub.

Another pub in Bromley attacked by 15 men with knives and screwdrivers, injuring patrons - "the pub looked like a slaughterhouse". At the station in East Ham, police spotted a stabbed 19 year old, two 17 year old in the north of London suffered got shot, one died and another is still in grievous condition.

Hello from the UK umm

Daily Telegraph talking about similarities to the "lost generation": The lost generation of today is not dying in the trench at the Somme, but on Britains streets. They are not dying for their country, they don't even die for their iPods, they die because they are on the side of the wrong gang or the wrong side of the street.

Statistics claim that the cases of violence declined, but they don't even take the 'under-16-yr-olds' into account.

What's happening, UK?

umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete Topic

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:The quote was from an article by Tricky, whose real name in Adrian Thaws.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:So it's all a media hype? umm Getting ppl scared and paranoid to fuel more police? Or is it simply because it is what ppl (don't) want to hear about their country?

Really don't know. The statistics do not include minors >16 and the violence in this group is on the rise - not just in the UK. Some of the guys that are charged with the murder of Amar Aslam had been between 12 and 15 only.

Is it not fact that "the youth" (omg do I sound like a granddaddy?) is getting more violent and more ruthless in their crimes. Violence from adolescent teens is not new at all but the 'quality' of crimes seem to increase - am I wrong?

I see it all over Europe - not just in the UK. Gang rape, knivings, even teens that act as pimps to their classmates.

It's no reason to smirk, Lurch. Youth violence (to a certain degree in quality) has a higher tradition in the US. I've seen violent cartoons as a kid (Tom and Jerry ubblol ) seen violent movies and played violent PC games - so has my entire generation. Dunno why it's only recently that youth violence got so incredibly bizarre?

Just searching for a "teen pimp" umm

However. According to this website:

"Violence is a learned behavior. Children learn violent behaviors from their family and peers, as well as observe it in their neighborhoods and in the community at large. These behaviors are reinforced by what youth see on television, on the Internet, in video games, movies, music videos, and what they hear in their music.

When children are disciplined with severe corporal punishment or verbal abuse, or when they are physically or sexually abused, or when they witness such behavior in their home, it is not surprising that they behave violently toward others.

Research studies have shown that violent behavior can be decreased or even prevented if these risk factors are significantly reduced or eliminated:

* Being the victim of physical abuse and/or sexual abuse
* Exposure to violence in the home and/or community
* Exposure to violence in media (TV, movies, etc.)
* Use of drugs and/or alcohol
* Presence of firearms in home
* Combination of stressful family socioeconomic factors
(poverty, severe deprivation, marital breakup,
single parenting, unemployment, loss of support from
extended family)."

When looking at the current economical development in the UK and Europe, the socio-economical part is not likely to improve shortly, is it?
Exposure to violence in the community - well this is on the rise as it seems.
Exposure to violence in the media - this is unlikely to diminish, who nowadays is watching Winnie Poo as a 14 yr old?
Use of drugs and alcohol: Europe's alcohol abuse (and foremost that in the UK) is also unlikely to improve in the near future... beerchug
'Fortunately' the firearms-problem greatly remains one of the US... wink

Play more Poi weavesmiley may be a good advice/beginning ...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Hammelis, I agree, my brother lives in Southmead, Bristol. Yes it is rough.
I don't know one person who's been stabbed or shot. Not even heard of a friend of a friend that that has happened too.

Of course not all of it is media hype, but it's rare to hear of these things happening on your doorstep.

There are rough parts of Britain, granted, with territorial gangs. To think that that's commonplace though is delusional.

To spread fear over youth is to give them more power. There is no need for anyone to be intimidated by youngsters, or Britain!


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by : FT

It's no reason to smirk, Lurch. Youth violence (to a certain degree in quality) has a higher tradition in the US. I've seen violent cartoons as a kid (Tom and Jerry ) seen violent movies and played violent PC games - so has my entire generation. Dunno why it's only recently that youth violence got so incredibly bizarre?



Well not to be fair Tom I've been saying that the media has been influencing violence, and having a detrimental effect on our communities this whole time. You can't really rub that in my face.

Violence is not entirely a learned behavior, in the sense that it is learned from watching others. It can be "learned" in the sense that it is effective at getting what you want though. Especially as a child. The 'nanny' state that we live in today, with the overly PC society and huge push towards niceties does little to correct problem behaviors in children.

So you ask why there is so much more youth violence? I agree with you that it is at least partially due to the media in its current state. How many of these children have ever been taught that violence for violence sake is wrong? They don't have positive role models, and the media does little to help that.

As for the 'firearms' problem being a US thing, go back 50 years when you were given guns as a coming of age present when you'd turn 10. There were shooting clubs in school. Trucks would be parked in front of highschools with hunting rifles in them, yet there was far less extreme violence in the community. Guns have decreased, crime has increased. I'm not saying the guns prevented violence, merely that this overprotective culture we have breeds and encourages those with a predisposition for violent behavior to take control by not doing anything to nip it in the bud.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Have we considered that the violence these youth partake in around our areas of living is really nothing in comparision to some other places in say central america or africa (just examples)
I saw a picture of a kid, maybe 12, from Columbia (south america, I know) standing in front of heliocopter with an AK.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Just something interesting..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=757_1212418336


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Lurch


Just something interesting..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=757_1212418336



With regard to the headline on that page-

"UK: The English want their guns back...too little, too late."

I think it's important to say that it's 100% totally innacurate.

It's OK to argue for guns remaining legal in the U.S.- you make some good points in other threads.

It's even OK to argue that legalising guns in the U.K. could be beneficial.

But, the English do not currently want their guns back- there is currently no visible movement or campaign to make guns available in the way they are in the U.S.

It would be a shame in those outside of the U.K. believed that the headline above reflected the views of the English regarding guns, cos it, absolutely, does not.

The closest view is that some would like all police to be armed and, even that's controversial and far from the majority view.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:For youth violence in general- it is of course a tragic waste of life.

But, I don't really go along with the view that it's 'so much worse than the old days', that things are coming to a head/spiraling out of control.

Youth violence has always been a big part of british culture.

Back in the fifties, there where no hoodies and, big kitchen knives were not the weapons of choice- but, you had the 'Teddy boys' stabbing each other with switchblades and, the media publicised the big incidents and (some) of the general public lived in fear

Before that, in the twenties I think, you had established Sheffield gangs that are notorious even to this day for the levels of violence they perpetrated.

That's not to mimimise the current levels of violence, I'm just pointing out that it's nothing new.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Hmm, what makes you believe that the youth violence is not increasing, Dave?

I for my part am not a friend of the notion that "things have been better in the old days" - that's just rubbish. Yet I feel that the dimension and the quality of violence, ie. causes for fights (zip code gangs), weaponry used (knives and guns), injuries inflicted (beaten or stabebd to death), age of those involved (12 yr olds join to kill and gangrape) and the indulgement in the results (video taped and this video distributed amongst the mates) has definitely increased.

Maybe there's a good aspect to it: the more adults get scared, the more they will start to do something about it - maybe one day they might even come up with something constructive...

Guns are not the answer to violence - the US is proving that on a daily basis. I'm happy that you seem to support this, Dave. Violence is not the answer to violence. Never was, never will be.

Preventive measures and creative attempts to curb violence are the key.

Lurch has said a true thing somewhere... Ah here it is:

 Written by : Lurch

How many of these children have ever been taught that violence for violence sake is wrong? They don't have positive role models, and the media does little to help that.



Alcohol diminishes fear and the UK unfortunately has a strong booze culture - violence will spiral further, if not curbed... IMHO


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Rellizate
GOLD Member since Feb 2007

Rellizate

old hand
Location: Cambridge, UK

Total posts: 719
Posted:In America there are more murders (on average) in one state in one day than there are in the whole of the UK in a year. It's a loads oh media hype in my opinion.

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Hmm, what makes you believe that the youth violence is not increasing, Dave?

I for my part am not a friend of the notion that "things have been better in the old days" - that's just rubbish. Yet I feel that the dimension and the quality of violence, ie. causes for fights (zip code gangs), weaponry used (knives and guns), injuries inflicted (beaten or stabebd to death), age of those involved (12 yr olds join to kill and gangrape) and the indulgement in the results (video taped and this video distributed amongst the mates) has definitely increased.





I think it's not increasing cos youths have always indulged in violence- sometimes to horrific extremes; as in the previously mentioned gang wars and teddy boys violence in the 20's and 50's.

I do agree, however, that the ages of those involved seems to be going down.

Knives however, whether kitchen, switchblade, or , in 70's liverpool stanley knives (sometimes customised with double blades to create a scar that counldn't be stitched) have always been part and parcel of youth violence.

And, when someone gets the upper hand with knives, the opposition,if they have access to guns, will often up the ante that way.

IMO, the only reason we now have what you call 'indulgement' now where we didn't before, is cos, prior to recent times, mobile phones with video cams didn't exist.

If they had, in the 50's, of course Teddy Boys gangs would have filmed the times they gave someone a good kicking so they could pass it one for the amusement (and aquire respect) of their friends.

It's not so much a new development in violence, as a new development in technology that those who like violence will happily make use of.



 Written by :FireTom


Guns are not the answer to violence - the US is proving that on a daily basis. I'm happy that you seem to support this, Dave. Violence is not the answer to violence. Never was, never will be.




Don't start on that Tommy-boy smile

My post made no comment whatsoever on the rights/wrongs of guns- I simply pointed out that the statment 'Britains want their guns back' was not true.

Fact is, as you know from previous threads, i fully support Lurches right to pump bullets into anyone who, for no good reason and, with conscious intent, attempts to put his, or his families life at risk.

I also believe that, though it's a last resort, in certain circumstances, violence is an appropriate solution.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I side you on your suggestion. In case the decision is between "you or me" - it will be "you" all the time (if I can manage).

I mentioned that before and also quoted a comment of the Dalai Lama, under which grounds he supports self defence (and subsequently violence as an appropriate response even for those committed to a life of 'non violence', ie. Buddhism).

Not quite that certain about your comment on supporting "Lurches right to pump bullets into anyone who, for no good reason and, with conscious intent, attempts to put his, or his families life at risk." Sounds too martialic for my taste and opens the door for misinterpretations. Use of "appropriate force" (for me) is the key term.

However, I have not enough informations on the youth violence of the 20's to 70's in the UK, yet I noticed that the one in Germany strongly increased in both 'quality' and 'quantity' (without any hyping) - which is why I'm asking:

What the censored is going on in the UK? You tell me that it's just media hype - even though something tells me that it ain't - I just hope it's true.

Violence - and specially that of youths - has the unfortunate tendency to swiftly spiral out of hand. "Don't like how you look" - punch. "Like your jacket & you don't hand it over" - stab. "I feel threatened and you appear to have a knife" - shoot...

I just read (in the media) that the statistics don't include violent offences under the age of 16... as the age is coming down, therefore this is a great factor disregarded.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:I'm not really convinced that it is all media hype... yeah I know some people who live in rough areas, who have not witnessed an increase in violent crime... but similarly, I've lived in areas where I've known of violent crimes that never, ever made it into the local or national media in the first place (guy who got stabbed at the end of my road, guy getting beaten up by a gang of 16 - 20 yr olds at the end of my road, 3 of my friends being beaten up on their way home from the pub in a completely random and unprovoked incident, friends being threatened by a group of 14 year olds with knives and older brothers because they wouldn't play football with them)....

The stats and reporting of crime in the UK doesn't paint a true picture, so it's really hard to tell either way. Also, the things I described above don't necessarily indicate a rise in violent crime in that area... for all I know it was that violent before I moved there too.

I think it would be more constructive to look at why violent crime seems to be increasing in certain areas of the UK, and the situations in those areas, because it is often related to a whole load of other issues regarding social deprivation, family breakdown, race/ethnic relations etc etc.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

Delete

jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I think you're right Tea Fairy. Personally I think violent crime isn't that heard of in rural areas, it's mainly built-up towns and cities.

I think the trees and plants keep people calm and happy sunny


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Delete

Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I heard somewhere recently that bright pink is the colour that makes people most agressive. Maybe if we could get chavettes to switch entirely to the baby-blue instead it would help... ubbidea

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted: Written by :jo_rhymes


I think the trees and plants keep people calm and happy sunny



I couldn't agree more! I've recently moved from a really grotty bit of West London to lovely rural Gloucestershire... every time my mum starts going on about how it's not as safe around here as it used to be I feel like laughing, because I saw so much violence and crime happening where I used to live and the levels of violent crime in Gloucestershire are so low in comparison!

There's definitely something to be said for being able to see the seasons change and not being all crowded together in big concrete housing estates! smile


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Trees and green keeps people happy - less density of population and definitely canalized opportunities to express frustration/ aggression promotes a healthier society.

But maybe we just need more guns? wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

JaqueDark
BRONZE Member since Mar 2008

journeyman
Location: Liverpool England

Total posts: 55
Posted:I have no idea. I've been a victim of such violence. Last january when I was coming home with my big bro there were a bunch of lads after money. When we ignored them and kept walking they tried to attack my brother with one of those triangle men at work signs. My bro is a complete pacifist and hates violence so he wouldn't fight back. So I got scrappy and got punched in the face and shoved around. I had to go to the hospital because I'd hit my head and landed on my wrist.

I think this whole attitude of knives and 'protection' is all coming from fear. Did anyone see Bowling For Columbine, specifically the bit about American TV? I think that's what happening here. You've got all these reports on the news about people getting attacked, sure people are bound to be scared and want to protect themselves! I'm just extremely thankful that guns aren't easily accesible here otherwise I'm sure things would have been a lot different when those lads tried to take our money.

JD


Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Tom, what the heck, I mean really. It's not really fair to continually bring guns up. We get it you don't like guns...

The best protection is a confident attitude and an awareness of what is going on around you.

As for Bowling for Columbine...not a huge fine of Michael Moore. It's a regular thing though, media making things appear worse than they are. It gets you to tune in day after day


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith, I'm bringing guns up because somewhere some people do argue that 'an armed society is a polite society' and some other people write articles that the Pommies 'want their guns back' when that clearly is not the case.

Maybe you inquire for yourself why you get upset about me (making these statements) and show such a strong reaction to them. By no means I want to provoke you (or Lurch).

I (generally) observe society to get more radical in their violence/ approach towards others - and would rather like to see a society that helps each other out rather than stepping into each others faces.

There are reasons for (escalated) violence.

I side all those who say that 'the media' (again these are only people) like to blow it out of proportion to sell their news.

If people start buying knives for protection - again we face only one (negative) reaction of the entire possible spectrum .

I remember myself walking in some deserted Ozzie outback town after dark and that one guy approaching me must have felt a little funny about my appearance. Immediately (instead of feeling threatened and helpless) he looked straight at me, into my eyes, gave me a nod and said: "How'sit goin?"

We can escape the escalation (or start) of violence by not falling into the vicious circle of victimasation - without needing to feel that cold steel on our hips.

 Written by : Faith

The best protection is a confident attitude and an awareness of what is going on around you.



Thank you so much, Faith. That kind of comment I was really missing from you in the gun thread (please note that I missed it, even though you might have stated it somewhere).

It's about communication, respect, confidence and awareness (in the present). It starts right here and now, in the very place I am sitting and typing these words, trying to arrange them in a way so *you* don't feel threatened by them in your integrity.

I for my part feel improvement already by not getting called names in response for what I am writing hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:It's not so you don't feel threatened, it's so you see that robber and can avoid any other need for defense

Guns are defense too and it has nothing to do with what I said. The two are not related. Don't try to make them so.

I get assertive with you because all you do is criticize and if someone disagrees well then you start in by saying that we feel threatened. I don't. I get tired of hearing the same things from you over and over again.

And do you insinuate that we call you names? Really?

Attitude and awareness help you only so much. When guns get pulled, attitude and awareness may not be enough to help you.

Also, many of us aren't keeping guns as defense against people. And if we do, it is not going to be put into action necessarily. Owning a gun doesn't mean you are going to use it against another human being. Guns are not bad. People and their desires can be


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by :faithinfire

And do you insinuate that we call you names? Really?



Most others just have generalize judgement upon others because they need to identify themselves. Thus neglecting that derogatory statements show more about their own personality that of those judged upon.

You directly aim your censored at me and I kindly ask you to stop right here.

Thanks


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I have not called you names, I have called into question your bias, and techniques.

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith - the topic is "youth violence (in the UK).
Unless you have something (constructive) to contribute to the discussion you'll be talking to your hands...

weavesmiley


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Page: 12