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Forums > Social Discussion > does it matter what moves are called?

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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

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Posted:well, I did a search so apologies if this has been posted before...
something that seems to be coming out of the poigeek thread:

does it really matter what moves are called, especially when you're just starting out?

So long as you learn a 'move' you're improving your co-ordination: should it matter that whether you learn 'the mexican wave', not 'alternating butterfly shoulder reels?'

granted when you get to the intermediate/advanced stage, its sooo much more helpful to think of things in broken down terms, but personally I think its hard enough at the beginning to just learn the move without worrying what the name means


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Pyrolific
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Posted:it doesnt matter what the name of a move is, if you are happy to only get your information from one source...or a reliable and sustainable expert. As soon as you want to learn from another source, then the names start to matter, and conventions are a good idea.

Meaningful conventions can also lead to increased likelihood of innovation (ie systematic conventions/frameworks make it easier to identify new ground; eg "thats cool, but can you isolate/antispin/invert that?").

names dont matter at all if you dont care about learning in a systematic manner, or you are a very individualistic / self-directed learner...as people often were back in the day.


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FireTom


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Posted:^^^ side that

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PinkNigel


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Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


So, I use 'stick release' rather than 'suicide'- not only is it not going to cause bad memories/upset for anyone, but it also is considerably more descriptive of the move.




Spot on. I too, have never used those names in primary schools.. I'm not quite sso PC tho', I refer to suicide as the "mad, crazy, letting go of the stick trick" (in the middle of a manic run through of possibilities, before ending up with "...but the only trick anybody really ever wants to see is the 'throwing it *really* high in the air' trick").

I do know that cos of this thread I shall never refer to "thread the needle" again, from now on it's "fisting the fairy"... smile


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

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Posted:I don't mind. I've been to the movies, to the cinema, to the theatre and to see a film, I've used a car, a vehicle, an automobile, a corsa or "the egg", and I've had fizzy, lemonade, orangeade, soda, juice, or a soft drink.

As long as you're able to communicate/explain/show what you're doing instead of insisting on your version and calling everyone else stupid why worry?


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hamamelis
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

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Posted:Meh.. they all have their up and down sides.. I would *much* rather, as a beginner, been able to go 'Look what I can do! It's a 5 beat weave' than, 'look! I can do a cross and follow with an extra twist on each side!'

It's like scientific names.. they may be universally understood, but you wouldn't want to go into your local shop and ask for some Fragaria virginiana fruits, would you?
(strawberries, if you're wondering :P )


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:I think this may bring something into:

Imagine, that I've been allways giving a number
for every new move that I've learnt.

Imagine yourself giving allways a name
for every new move you've learnt.

We've met together and we both register some
great new move.

You'd say: Hmm, nice butterfly weave.
I'd say: Hmm, nice 3 4.

----------------------------------------

You can find that numbers are, but nothing.

50 cent,

:R


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feeb


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Posted:perhaps the main point is to have fun. poi are generally balls on string or balls in socks. i dont think anyone can say what is 'right' or 'wrong' about anyone elses use of them. its just pedantic.

i dont know the names for anything, if i see something i like, i might well go up and ask to be taught it, but it makes no difference what it is called if you are gaining the information.

plus, anyone trying to teach under names they have heard before/ made up, will only have a thread about them on this forum, so surely google will clear up any confusion...

Personally i all think we should just have a laugh, remember your spinning a sock round yer head, and get on with it!!


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simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

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Posted: Written by :feeb


perhaps the main point is to have fun. poi are generally balls on string or balls in socks. i dont think anyone can say what is 'right' or 'wrong' about anyone elses use of them. its just pedantic.



this whole issue is very simple. there are people who dont care what things are called, who just want to spin.

thats all cool, but there are people who want to spend their time thinking bout ways of unifying language, approaches to teaching, the development of the scene alongside the spinning etc...

this has got nothing to do with saying people who dont use "our" terms are dumb.

yes it might be seen as pedantic, might be seen as just geeky obsessiveness, and yes it will take time for poi language to approach unification but that doesnt mean the people who want that shouldnt make the effort.

its a bit tiresome having people continually saying it doesnt matter to them therefore it shouldnt matter to anyone else.

just cos we like to be geeky doesnt mean we arent having fun ubblol


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

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feeb


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Posted:Sorry honey (bit sharp today by the sounds of things - you not me!!) i wasnt trying to insinuate that those people out there who know all the fancy names for stuffs' opinions arent valid, i think they are HIGHLY valid, but as both a learner and a teacher over the last few years i havent really found the names of stuff to be all that important in teaching a move. I am far more into the circles the poi make than the arm movements that create them...

as i side i will say that in some cases i think the names confuse people, make the trick seem more important than it really is and thats a shame.

personally i think both types of people have a place in this world, and imagine the creative names people might come up with on different side of the planet. also in a different language a 'weave' might meen something TOTALLY else to what we percieve it as, so it might get even more confusing when they develop stuff and try and send it back!

there are two sides to the coin, thats all i am saying


sorry if i have come across nasty, i am not really its just been a long sleep free weekend!


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willworkforfoodjnr
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

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Posted:ditto (In the nicest way possible)

I love how terminology can help you to understand these arts on a new level. I might take the mick a bit, and I know my spinning terminology isn't quite upto scratch, but from juggling for years I understand how siteswap and other such notation can help you appreciate how balls "work" much better.

I suppose it all depends on how you learn. 90% of the time I understand a move in my head before I ever try to do it with my body, for others its the other way round.


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feeb


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Posted:hehehehe, i reckon your dito was for Simta hey Will (and there i was thinking someone actually agreed with me for a change - silly pixie!)

i like how you put that

'i understand a move in my head before i ever try to do it with my body, for others its the other way round' is quite true... personally i am chuffed you 'geeks' (in the nicest possible way wink are up for doing all this crazy mind bending because it means that people like me can nick your tricks


keep up the good work guys!! but i do think its a bit arrogant to suggest we unify everything, for points listed above


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:smile

The main issue, and one that was raised in the PoiGeek thread, is that no matter if we decide on a naming convention, write it all up and reach a common consensus - it won't make a single bit of difference to the huge numbers of poi spinners outside of this community (by which I mean HoP, Spherc, Tribe, DMP, and the whole convetion scene where people meet).
There's always going to be people teaching poi on a beach in Goa, or in a park in Tokyo, or up a hill in Dorking who don't use these names and spread their own nomenclature.

But.

As long as names are logical and/or descriptive (or "either" in the case of when moves have 2 names) they're more likely to be adopted should these two things meet.

Of course this all depends, as people have said, on whether we're talking about "spin poi for 3 months, get bored, move on" spinners, or "spin poi for a few years, develop it, appreciate it" spinners.
The former can call a move anything they want, they can impress their mates with the "Death star" and " Wheel of Spooge" moves and move on.
The latter would need to learn the proper names should they wish to really pursue the learning.

One side issue is what constitutes a "move" (if they exist), and at which stage it qualifies for a "name". Otherwise you just end up with a "base name" with countless modifiers.
e.g. "split-time wall-plane anti-spin butterfly flowers with split-time arms"
"Butterfly" is the only move in there - the rest is just modifiers (anti-spin, isolation, LA/SA etc) or families (Flower, wrap, throw etc.)

Hmm, can't remember what my point was.

Ah yes - "Fisting the Fairy" should be "Fisting the fairies" as I've always thought your hands should cross over, thus you've got two targets. (Unless aforementioned fairy is particularly accomodating).


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feeb


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Posted:that really sums it up for me durbs, you have taken from my comment about people who just like to have fun with poi, to 'none serious spinners who give up after three months'

i have learnt some fine technical moves from watching and learning from other people, no need to know the names, i just play and learn!

doesnt mean my art is any less than yours mate, frankly


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simta
BRONZE Member since Apr 2006

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Posted: Written by :feeb

but i do think its a bit arrogant to suggest we unify everything, for points listed above



i dont get why its arrogant to want a standard made confused

think about a time before there was any kind of standard gymnast language or competition, or existence of a gymnastic scene.

there has always been people doing those things but was it arrogant of all the people who made the efforts from which there is a standard language that all gymnasts understand and the competitions that ensued.

this doesnt mean i want there to be a competitive edge to poi, merely that i dont see the reason why poi language cant become standard like gymnast(substitute any established discipline here) language is.

obviously i know its not going to happen for a long while (or may never happen) but doesnt stop the want


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simta
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Posted: Written by :feeb


doesnt mean my art is any less than yours mate, frankly



nobody has ever implied that it is!!!

it doesnt matter whether you want to or dont want to know names.

i personally dont quite understand some of the really techy names til they are shown to me, but it doesnt mean i dont want them to exist


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feeb


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Posted:okay, so how do you expect the words that we use to mean the same to everyone else in the world?? languages greatly alter wording, meaning and phrases when you translate them, therefore UNIversally, the system will not ever work. doesnt mean its not great that you guys have your own thing going on, or that you like to name the moves. thats your thing and its great. if there are other people doing that thing, even better for you

but everyone has the right to be independant, free and expressive with what they have explored with poi, it might be a bit different if people are getting moves from the internet, and changing the name to sound clever, thats just plain rude! But thats a moral issue, you simply cant set these things in stone


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simta
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Posted: Written by :feeb


okay, so how do you expect the words that we use to mean the same to everyone else in the world?? languages greatly alter wording, meaning and phrases when you translate them, therefore UNIversally, the system will not ever work.



i dunno "weekend" has become understood across many languages

computing terminology is pretty universal

saying it will never work is a bit defeatist, fair enough its pretty unlikely, but some people like the odds stacked against them ubblol


"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Feeb - I wasn't splitting all spinners into 2 groups, I was taking the 2 extremes to give an example.

The "problem" exists exactly because there's a huge scale between the two. And for reference I wasn't referring to your comment at all...



Language will always be an issue, but for all latin-based languages, it's fairly easy to translate all the words faithfully, if translation is needed at all.

For other languages, either a translation or direct use of the word will suffice.

[edit]

Music is generally notated in Italian, martial arts are generally taught in their "home" language, ballet in French - there's never previously been a need to translate all names to accomodate different languages.

And to pre-empt a possible counter to this, I differentiate between traditional and modern poi - hence not using Maori words for naming.



"doesnt mean my art is any less than yours mate, frankly "

I don't seem to have ever implied it was - you're either being overly defensive or mis-reading my post.


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feeb


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Posted:i think i greatly mis-read your post durbs, sorry about that (damn the internet and the webs it weaves!)

for an example of my language theory, the weave is a discriptive word that means one thing to us, but the german for 'weave' might mean something totally different to them, or be given in a different context

therefore it because less discriptive and more confusing! hence people using their own names to name stuff, think of all the double uses we have for similar sounding words, then consider that the Hindis have no words that translate 'dreamcatcher' it makes no sense in their language, the best they can translate it too is 'catcher of dreams'

people are different, countries are different and tribes are different, i am quite interested to see how poi spinners expand and grow in their own environment rather than being expected to succum to one blanket rule

then again i think there is a place for a 'bible' of poi spinning, it would certainly make an interesting read! And i respect and appreciate the work that you guys do i really do, i just wish there was a wee bit of respect for us dance, performance, fun spinners too


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Durbs
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Posted:Again, I don't see why you think you're not respected?

I've always maintained "Movement over moves" when teaching/watching/playing with poi, and I know i'm not alone in this. Indeed, the uber-geeks and demi-gods I've met have always been in agreement that poi is more so about dance and movement than it is "moves".

With languages - if a guy in Russia comes up with a move/theory/family/modifier and calls it "insert-Russian-sounding-word-here" - I'm more than happy to use that name, and wouldn't look to translate it.
But so far, in the community which I and most of the spinners I know are involved in, English has been used as the common language, as it's generally understood around the globe in one form or another.
Even if someone in Madagascar knows little English, watches a YouTube video of a guy teaching a "hyperloop" - he doesn't need to know that "Hyper" means fast and "loop" derives from the "tangle" aspect of it - he just uses the word.
Again, taking the parallel of music - musicians don't need to know "Allegro" comes from the latin for fast, they just need to know it means fast.

In fact it would make things harder if translations were applied - take an international meet-up like UberEurope. If 3 spinners from the UK, Germany and Italy all turn up - they could spend hours discussing some new moves before realising they've been talking abotu the same one.

No-one is being expected to "succum to one blanket rule" - the point being made (I think) is that should they wish to develop their technical knowledge of poi spinning, it will make their learning easier, and probably quicker if everyone uses the same naming convetions.


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LazyAngel
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Posted:I think all this makes the case for projects such as the encyclopodia and people attempting to sum things up in posts, like this one from Glass

If we had some kind of poi dictionary, where people recorded the various names they heard for different things, it would help so much!

for example: you look up 'fisting the fairy' and then get referenced to an entry on what 'thread the needle' is. So then somebody could use either of those terms, and you'd understand both


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simta
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Posted: Written by :LazyAngel


If we had some kind of poi dictionary, where people recorded the various names they heard for different things, it would help so much!




well could a wiki be setup?


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LazyAngel
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

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Posted:the poidia used to be a wiki... I don't know what's happened to that info..

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simta
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Posted:richee's valura project is really comprehensive, but because the unit terms used are so high level if you didnt understand any term you had no chance, but it is really good.

gotta try put that info with the poidia maybe


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FireTom


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Posted: Written by : Durbs

take an international meet-up like UberEurope. If 3 spinners from the UK, Germany and Italy all turn up - they could spend hours discussing some new moves before realising they've been talking abotu the same one.



Eggsactly my thinking. Why putting more Babylon into our communities?

"Fisting the Fairy"... umm who's coming up with stuff like this? rolleyes


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Durbs
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Posted:That'd be a hefty list/matrix if people tried to cover every move/family/modifier with "common name" alongside "also known as" and optional translations...
(With succinct definitions too wink )
You could even have a "why it's called this" column for fun wink


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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by :Durbs




In fact it would make things harder if translations were applied - take an international meet-up like UberEurope. If 3 spinners from the UK, Germany and Italy all turn up - they could spend hours discussing some new moves before realising they've been talking abotu the same one.




Could they not perhaps bring along a couple of sets of poi, then a few seconds of spinning would make everything clear, saving those hours of wasted discussion? smile


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Birgit
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Posted:Yeah... I'm finding it hard to believe that at UberEurope or similar 3 spinners would discuss a move for HOURS and not find out they were talking about the same thing or demonstrate.

(I think we've already figured out that the poigeek audience for example isn't likely to be found at UberEurope. Those who regularly meet and communicate with others will find some common denominator for moves.)


By the way, I met this Maori girl when I was travelling, and she had poi with her and was doing a butterfly and a buzzsaw. She called it something weird though - I asked her to get her nomenclature sorted and that it was to be called butterfly and buzzsaw, not some foreign nonsense she must've come up with to make it sound special... wink


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Durbs
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Durbs

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Posted:Ok, so slight exaggerations aside, it was just an example of the fact that a shared language (of poi) woud facilitate better communication - something that remarkably fails to happen on HoP regularly wink



Birgit:

 Written by : Me, on the previous page



And to pre-empt a possible counter to this, I differentiate between traditional and modern poi - hence not using Maori words for naming.





Aside from a couple of moves, traditional poi is VERY different to modern poi, hence why I think it's acceptable to use non-Maori language.


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LazyAngel
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LazyAngel

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Posted: Written by :Durbs


That'd be a hefty list/matrix if people tried to cover every move/family/modifier with "common name" alongside "also known as" and optional translations...
(With succinct definitions too wink )




it surely would be, but then look at how far technique has been advanced through discussions on HoP: I'm not suggesting it would be a week, month, year or even decades eek before it gets done:

But as an ongoing project, it might really help the online community (and help with the newbie wrangling issue wink )

Although the poidia information is stil on Sperculism.net, it doesn't seem to be availiable as a wiki anymore (possibly during the move from .com to .net)

anyway, it does exist in English, Italian and German at the moment.

Poi on Wikipedia

poidia in English

poidia in German

poidia in Italian


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