Forums > Social Discussion > does it matter what moves are called?
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Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
well, I did a search so apologies if this has been posted before...
something that seems to be coming out of the poigeek thread:
does it really matter what moves are called, especially when you're just starting out?
So long as you learn a 'move' you're improving your co-ordination: should it matter that whether you learn 'the mexican wave', not 'alternating butterfly shoulder reels?'
granted when you get to the intermediate/advanced stage, its sooo much more helpful to think of things in broken down terms, but personally I think its hard enough at the beginning to just learn the move without worrying what the name means
well, I did a search so apologies if this has been posted before...
something that seems to be coming out of the poigeek thread:
does it really matter what moves are called, especially when you're just starting out?
So long as you learn a 'move' you're improving your co-ordination: should it matter that whether you learn 'the mexican wave', not 'alternating butterfly shoulder reels?'
granted when you get to the intermediate/advanced stage, its sooo much more helpful to think of things in broken down terms, but personally I think its hard enough at the beginning to just learn the move without worrying what the name means
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
Names give us a focus. Its like meeting new ppl and having no names , even if you do forget them straight away
. I like when I do somehting new to have names of people and stuff.
Hey Mr Angel Im having trouble with the 3bt weave can you help me. As opposed to having no idea what to call it.
When I am teaching ppl with no English I find I feel really exposed as I cant use all my usual terms and wordage.
Names give us a focus. Its like meeting new ppl and having no names , even if you do forget them straight away
. I like when I do somehting new to have names of people and stuff.Hey Mr Angel Im having trouble with the 3bt weave can you help me. As opposed to having no idea what to call it.
When I am teaching ppl with no English I find I feel really exposed as I cant use all my usual terms and wordage.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
I think names are important especially when on the interwebz. take teh 3bt weave as above. How would you decribe this move if you saw it on a video or somthing?
I think names are important especially when on the interwebz. take teh 3bt weave as above. How would you decribe this move if you saw it on a video or somthing?
O.B.E.S.E.
Owned by Mynci!
SILVER Member
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
Language, and definitions, help us to condense information.
In music particularly, I've noticed it's quite often a pain trying to communicate an idea to someone who has no idea of theory or even general musical terms. You literally have to show them/play a recording of what you're talking about, or try to describe it using abstract terms which isn't always possible.
If we all use the same descriptions for poi moves, discussing them is possible, eg we can actually picture what a 3bt btb weave is - rather than people saying 'I've invented/learned the mooseflip treehouse' and trying to describe their precise hand movements.
I hope we can eventually develop a poi notation in some form, and work the theory out to the point where we have rules which describe what is/ isn't possible - then we can play around with the ideas on pieces of paper & turn them into moves (as you can do with music). Some would say this isn't as pure or whatever as just swinging em about and tripping over moves, but I'm much more creative with the theory side of things (again with music) than I can be just waving my fingers about & seeing what happens.
Big analogy to music throughout which may not apply as they are very different, but I really do lament not being able to write down poi moves (and particularly read them) as descriptions on here are quite often beyond me. AlienJon's animations are excellent for understanding the principles behind hybrids/different antispin moves and I know richee (though I do get frustrated trying to understand him) and a few others are quite a way down working out theory based ways of looking at moves.
Language, and definitions, help us to condense information.
In music particularly, I've noticed it's quite often a pain trying to communicate an idea to someone who has no idea of theory or even general musical terms. You literally have to show them/play a recording of what you're talking about, or try to describe it using abstract terms which isn't always possible.
If we all use the same descriptions for poi moves, discussing them is possible, eg we can actually picture what a 3bt btb weave is - rather than people saying 'I've invented/learned the mooseflip treehouse' and trying to describe their precise hand movements.
I hope we can eventually develop a poi notation in some form, and work the theory out to the point where we have rules which describe what is/ isn't possible - then we can play around with the ideas on pieces of paper & turn them into moves (as you can do with music). Some would say this isn't as pure or whatever as just swinging em about and tripping over moves, but I'm much more creative with the theory side of things (again with music) than I can be just waving my fingers about & seeing what happens.
Big analogy to music throughout which may not apply as they are very different, but I really do lament not being able to write down poi moves (and particularly read them) as descriptions on here are quite often beyond me. AlienJon's animations are excellent for understanding the principles behind hybrids/different antispin moves and I know richee (though I do get frustrated trying to understand him) and a few others are quite a way down working out theory based ways of looking at moves.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
but when there are no names, or we don't have the right vocabulary to express what we want, we all resort to visual guides, right? (ie, 'do this: then do this')
so has putting a name on it made any difference?
for example isolations: I know how they work, but I've no idea how to explain them without visuals really. I mean, how many people see 'isolated spinning' and think it means spinning in the middle of a field on your own?
Geoff, I love the idea of poi notation, it'd be really great if there was some way to explain moves to people without having to resort to lots of terms and explanations of component parts. But I fear it may be impossible without some form of visual explanation
but when there are no names, or we don't have the right vocabulary to express what we want, we all resort to visual guides, right? (ie, 'do this: then do this')
so has putting a name on it made any difference?
for example isolations: I know how they work, but I've no idea how to explain them without visuals really. I mean, how many people see 'isolated spinning' and think it means spinning in the middle of a field on your own?
Geoff, I love the idea of poi notation, it'd be really great if there was some way to explain moves to people without having to resort to lots of terms and explanations of component parts. But I fear it may be impossible without some form of visual explanation
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
SILVER Member
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
Putting a name on it means that once you know what an isolation is, you don't have to be shown again. Someone can just say 'isolate it' and you'll know what they mean.
As an example, once I knew what isolations and buzzsaws were, I can easily work out what an isolated busszaw is without being shown. Same with antispin & many other fundamental concepts.
Putting a name on it means that once you know what an isolation is, you don't have to be shown again. Someone can just say 'isolate it' and you'll know what they mean.
As an example, once I knew what isolations and buzzsaws were, I can easily work out what an isolated busszaw is without being shown. Same with antispin & many other fundamental concepts.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
How do they ask for help with a move they cant do and dont know what is called?
How do they ask for help with a move they cant do and dont know what is called?
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
agreed that names of fundamentals/concepts are useful in the intermediate/advanced stages, I'm thinking more of beginners here
you'll quite often see with moves people don't know/can't do references to 'x video' with it in. Or they'll try and explain it in terms of hand positions (which often leads to confusion through misinterpretation)
again the whole visual element comes out on top
Written by :LazyAngel
does it really matter what moves are called, especially when you're just starting out?
granted when you get to the intermediate/advanced stage, its sooo much more helpful to think of things in broken down terms,
but personally I think its hard enough at the beginning to just learn the move without worrying what the name means
agreed that names of fundamentals/concepts are useful in the intermediate/advanced stages, I'm thinking more of beginners here
you'll quite often see with moves people don't know/can't do references to 'x video' with it in. Or they'll try and explain it in terms of hand positions (which often leads to confusion through misinterpretation)
again the whole visual element comes out on top
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
Look at any discipline and you'll see that there'll be disputes as to naming conventions. Sciences, sports, music, writing, and so forth down the line, somebody has a different name for something anywhere you look. As long as the person you're talking to knows what you're talking about, the name is functional... Having standardized names means *more* people know what you're talking about.
I think names are especially important for beginners, because they can ask for help if they know what they're asking help for! Plus it's a way to keep track of what you're learning.
If I know that W, X, Y, and Z moves are possible, I can either try to remember the hand motions for it and rattle them off as "The one where your hands criss-cross back and forth, the one where the poi are going opposite ways, the one where you have to do the weird bendy-thing, and the one where you put it behind your shoulders and back in front" or I can think, "Ok, today I'm going to practice 3-beat weave, butterfly, 5-beat weave, and Mexican Wave".
It's not just a matter of convenience or having arbitrary words... They're descriptive, for the most part, and in the case of the 3- and 5-beat weaves, they contain the very elements of the move... weave, done with 5 beats. That, and the association cements itself in your brain. Now when you list what you know as you try to string new combos together you aren't thinking only in terms of body motion... you're thinking in words, where you just *understand* the motions as you hear the words.
Linguistics are very much a part of any endeavor. Words are basically symbols the brain uses to keep everything orderly. It's much easier for the mind to keep track of five different words, which each entails a set of motions, rather than five sets of motions.
In another thread I mentioned that I still don't know the proper names for devil stick maneuvers... I still have "names" for them, which means I can say, Ok Jon (my brother, who is familiar with my unusual terminology), do the Hodddd 2. I don't have to say, ok, use your left handstick to raise it from a horizontal plane to over the head and bring it back down again and turn it into a throw. If I knew the right name for it, I could easily describe to you exactly what move I mean.
To use a completely different example... I might say, "You ever see Jurassic Park? Ok, the really big one that ate the lawyer." Or I could say T-rex. I could call a T-rex a Lawyermuncher, if I wanted to, and if I told you that's what I meant, and showed you a video, you'd understand, but we've avoided any confusion by using a term that's generally accepted. Most people know a T-rex.
Look at any discipline and you'll see that there'll be disputes as to naming conventions. Sciences, sports, music, writing, and so forth down the line, somebody has a different name for something anywhere you look. As long as the person you're talking to knows what you're talking about, the name is functional... Having standardized names means *more* people know what you're talking about.
I think names are especially important for beginners, because they can ask for help if they know what they're asking help for! Plus it's a way to keep track of what you're learning.
If I know that W, X, Y, and Z moves are possible, I can either try to remember the hand motions for it and rattle them off as "The one where your hands criss-cross back and forth, the one where the poi are going opposite ways, the one where you have to do the weird bendy-thing, and the one where you put it behind your shoulders and back in front" or I can think, "Ok, today I'm going to practice 3-beat weave, butterfly, 5-beat weave, and Mexican Wave".
It's not just a matter of convenience or having arbitrary words... They're descriptive, for the most part, and in the case of the 3- and 5-beat weaves, they contain the very elements of the move... weave, done with 5 beats. That, and the association cements itself in your brain. Now when you list what you know as you try to string new combos together you aren't thinking only in terms of body motion... you're thinking in words, where you just *understand* the motions as you hear the words.
Linguistics are very much a part of any endeavor. Words are basically symbols the brain uses to keep everything orderly. It's much easier for the mind to keep track of five different words, which each entails a set of motions, rather than five sets of motions.
In another thread I mentioned that I still don't know the proper names for devil stick maneuvers... I still have "names" for them, which means I can say, Ok Jon (my brother, who is familiar with my unusual terminology), do the Hodddd 2. I don't have to say, ok, use your left handstick to raise it from a horizontal plane to over the head and bring it back down again and turn it into a throw. If I knew the right name for it, I could easily describe to you exactly what move I mean.
To use a completely different example... I might say, "You ever see Jurassic Park? Ok, the really big one that ate the lawyer." Or I could say T-rex. I could call a T-rex a Lawyermuncher, if I wanted to, and if I told you that's what I meant, and showed you a video, you'd understand, but we've avoided any confusion by using a term that's generally accepted. Most people know a T-rex.
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
This seems like a discussion has been had for ages on HoP in various ways.
Yep, names are good and useful. And usage defines their application. Even in the academic world, some people say academia' and some call it 'academe'. What USAsians call a graduate deegree, UK/Aus call a postgraduate degree. They describe people going to school or college when they are 25. We would never say that; it would always be university. A college has various other meanings. At what levels a diploma? Can be small or huge...
TO be honest, a lot of the moves that intrigue me now don't really have names. But if it looks good or feels good then maybe someone at a juggle jam somewhere will give it a shorthand; if it's descriptive and useful as a mnemonic it will stick. Or not. But it's never an absolute. I still don't get why a 3beat weave is called that. Nor have I found it a useful phrase when teaching the move. But I have had people go 'aha' in trying to learn it when I describe it as 'crossing the palm'. (though of course I will tell them that most of the world calls it a 3btwve)
Or I might get taught something by a traveller or someone who learned it from someone and they call it something... a 1.5 or hyperuberflap or whatever. I call it that and then discover that the 'name' has been revised or changed cos someone on the other side of the world thought it was a good idea or realised that others.. glowstringers or whoever... were already calling it something else.
Its almost like who posts a vid on the internet first gets naming rights
This seems like a discussion has been had for ages on HoP in various ways.
Yep, names are good and useful. And usage defines their application. Even in the academic world, some people say academia' and some call it 'academe'. What USAsians call a graduate deegree, UK/Aus call a postgraduate degree. They describe people going to school or college when they are 25. We would never say that; it would always be university. A college has various other meanings. At what levels a diploma? Can be small or huge...
TO be honest, a lot of the moves that intrigue me now don't really have names. But if it looks good or feels good then maybe someone at a juggle jam somewhere will give it a shorthand; if it's descriptive and useful as a mnemonic it will stick. Or not. But it's never an absolute. I still don't get why a 3beat weave is called that. Nor have I found it a useful phrase when teaching the move. But I have had people go 'aha' in trying to learn it when I describe it as 'crossing the palm'. (though of course I will tell them that most of the world calls it a 3btwve)
Or I might get taught something by a traveller or someone who learned it from someone and they call it something... a 1.5 or hyperuberflap or whatever. I call it that and then discover that the 'name' has been revised or changed cos someone on the other side of the world thought it was a good idea or realised that others.. glowstringers or whoever... were already calling it something else.
Its almost like who posts a vid on the internet first gets naming rights
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I think that having a convention with names gives poi more credibility. By having a convention with names I think it makes it more like a world-wide thing that we engage in, whereas having different name everywhere makes it more like some backyard hobby that you have. And while yes, there's a lot of backyard spinners out there, it's more than that for many of us.
I know I didn't explain that well
I think that having a convention with names gives poi more credibility. By having a convention with names I think it makes it more like a world-wide thing that we engage in, whereas having different name everywhere makes it more like some backyard hobby that you have. And while yes, there's a lot of backyard spinners out there, it's more than that for many of us.
I know I didn't explain that well
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
...to me its more useful at beginning. Later you can put it in terms of motions like split time swishy swashy butterfly.
Gabe......cross my palm with silver....you are a gypsy!!!
...to me its more useful at beginning. Later you can put it in terms of motions like split time swishy swashy butterfly. Gabe......cross my palm with silver....you are a gypsy!!!
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
*puts uberevents hat on*
( )
good naming strutures are vital for the furthering of the understanding and teaching of poi as a whle, and in large groups.
to understand the construction of movements and the ways in which you can develop your spinning across different families of moves, a good lexography is vital.
if, however, you are happy to just spin then there is no need for good naming at all 
its a geek thing, i think
but it *really* does help when teaching a workshop - most people can follow a full workshop better if they have the same understanding of the word 'weave' for example.
Rob
*puts uberevents hat on*
(
)good naming strutures are vital for the furthering of the understanding and teaching of poi as a whle, and in large groups.
to understand the construction of movements and the ways in which you can develop your spinning across different families of moves, a good lexography is vital.
if, however, you are happy to just spin
then there is no need for good naming at all its a geek thing, i think
but it *really* does help when teaching a workshop - most people can follow a full workshop better if they have the same understanding of the word 'weave' for example.
Rob
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
it dosnt matter what moves are called as long as we understand what our definitions mean.
i mean we could come up with names for all the poi moves using the symbols 0 and 1 only, (e.g. 0:=weave, 1:=butterfly , 10:=butterfly weave , 1010:=hyperloop , etc... ) or using whatever alphabet and language we like... so as long as everything is defined properly it really doesn't matter.
though... its convenient to have a conventional system for naming stuff that everyone understands, then every time you have a conversation you don't have to define every term you are using before you start... the way naming moves works on hop is i think as close to a conventional system of naming poi stuff as exists., so i think its good.
it dosnt matter what moves are called as long as we understand what our definitions mean.
i mean we could come up with names for all the poi moves using the symbols 0 and 1 only, (e.g. 0:=weave, 1:=butterfly , 10:=butterfly weave , 1010:=hyperloop , etc... ) or using whatever alphabet and language we like... so as long as everything is defined properly it really doesn't matter.
though... its convenient to have a conventional system for naming stuff that everyone understands, then every time you have a conversation you don't have to define every term you are using before you start... the way naming moves works on hop is i think as close to a conventional system of naming poi stuff as exists., so i think its good.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Of course.
ya, that;s the thing though. There is nothing logical or natural about that move being called a 'weave'. It could have just as easily been called a whirligig. It's a convention. Nothing wrong with that. Shorthand. Like Bluecat
Who called it a weave first anyway? Damn silly name. Plait maybe. Except Americans call them braids
Written by :bluecat
good naming strutures ...understanding and teaching of poi as a whole, and in large groups.
Of course.
Written by :bluecat
to understand the construction of movements ...... same understanding of the word 'weave' for example
ya, that;s the thing though. There is nothing logical or natural about that move being called a 'weave'. It could have just as easily been called a whirligig. It's a convention. Nothing wrong with that. Shorthand. Like Bluecat
Who called it a weave first anyway? Damn silly name. Plait maybe. Except Americans call them braids
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
I'm up for standardized naming of moves
pretty much every other human activity has it's specific terminology, why should poi be any different ?
What I figure is going on is pretty much everyone would like to discover a move, pattern or combo, and claim naming rights and we're in the competition phase with various people throwing out various terminology in the hopes that something will stick.
i learned the basics of poi at a Temple of Poi esque studio ( it's a shell of it's former self now 0 and the BF was taught as the "solar circle" with the rev BF being called the "lunar circle" . Imagine my confusion when I came on here and started wondering what this BF talk was all about. Was HoP wrong ? Or did my instructor just make up those terms just for her own reasons ? It was the latter
Now we have underhanded and overhanded weave, BF. What happened to forward and reverse ? Somewhere along the path, things changed and I didn't get the memo.
OK...time to go practice my "fisting the fairy"
I'm up for standardized naming of moves
pretty much every other human activity has it's specific terminology, why should poi be any different ?
What I figure is going on is pretty much everyone would like to discover a move, pattern or combo, and claim naming rights and we're in the competition phase with various people throwing out various terminology in the hopes that something will stick.
i learned the basics of poi at a Temple of Poi esque studio ( it's a shell of it's former self now 0 and the BF was taught as the "solar circle" with the rev BF being called the "lunar circle" . Imagine my confusion when I came on here and started wondering what this BF talk was all about. Was HoP wrong ? Or did my instructor just make up those terms just for her own reasons ? It was the latter
Now we have underhanded and overhanded weave, BF. What happened to forward and reverse ? Somewhere along the path, things changed and I didn't get the memo.
OK...time to go practice my "fisting the fairy"
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Written by :Stout
"fisting the fairy"
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
I find it particularly amusing that y'all are using 3bt weave as the example... What was wrong with "cross and follow"??
I find it particularly amusing that y'all are using 3bt weave as the example... What was wrong with "cross and follow"??
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the 
up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
Weave makes sense for several reasons. The biggest is that there's not already a better word that we can borrow from something that uses exactly the same movement. Then, the hand motions do resemble weaving, to some extent. A basic textile weaving pattern is over (the thread) under (the next thread) across (the swath) until you reach the end, then it's back to the other side, over, under, across. Back and forth. Side to side. Your hands do the same over-under thing, while you move the poi from side to side across your body.
Likewise, if I say a driver was weaving in an and out of traffic everybody would know what I mean. He certainly wasn't making baskets in between all the cars!
Personally I think the Butterfly could use a better name. As that's the standard here, I know what it means and I'll happily use it for lack of a better term, but it isn't especially descriptive, really, since it's broadly used for much more than just when your hands are together and the poi are moving in opposite directions, which is at least kind of the shape of a round, frantic butterfly.
Weave makes sense for several reasons. The biggest is that there's not already a better word that we can borrow from something that uses exactly the same movement. Then, the hand motions do resemble weaving, to some extent. A basic textile weaving pattern is over (the thread) under (the next thread) across (the swath) until you reach the end, then it's back to the other side, over, under, across. Back and forth. Side to side. Your hands do the same over-under thing, while you move the poi from side to side across your body.
Likewise, if I say a driver was weaving in an and out of traffic everybody would know what I mean. He certainly wasn't making baskets in between all the cars!
Personally I think the Butterfly could use a better name. As that's the standard here, I know what it means and I'll happily use it for lack of a better term, but it isn't especially descriptive, really, since it's broadly used for much more than just when your hands are together and the poi are moving in opposite directions, which is at least kind of the shape of a round, frantic butterfly.
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
BRONZE Member
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
Posted:
definitely
for advancement there has got to come a point of a unified language, yes there will always be people that use other names, but they need to be exceptions.
the weave may not be the best name, but because it is so widely used it should be the kept term.
obviously there are people that dont care about any of this lark, and thats fair enough, but there are a lot of people here that do want to try and work toward this unification of language.
as for whether it matters for newbies, personally ive been trying to formulate a way of teaching newbs that involves no names for anything
Written by :bluecat
good naming strutures are vital for the furthering of the understanding and teaching of poi as a whle,
its a geek thing, i think
definitely
for advancement there has got to come a point of a unified language, yes there will always be people that use other names, but they need to be exceptions.
the weave may not be the best name, but because it is so widely used it should be the kept term.
obviously there are people that dont care about any of this lark, and thats fair enough, but there are a lot of people here that do want to try and work toward this unification of language.
as for whether it matters for newbies, personally ive been trying to formulate a way of teaching newbs that involves no names for anything
"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
well, first of all; i never used '3bt weave', nor did i call something a 'weave'
i meant the concept of 'weave' which is much wider and more encompassing than a single move, and is actually highly descriptive
(geeks 'r' us)
Written by :newgabe
ya, that;s the thing though. There is nothing logical or natural about that move being called a 'weave'. It could have just as easily been called a whirligig. It's a convention. Nothing wrong with that. Shorthand. Like Bluecat
Who called it a weave first anyway? Damn silly name. Plait maybe. Except Americans call them braids
Written by : pink nige
I find it particularly amusing that y'all are using 3bt weave as the example... What was wrong with "cross and follow"??
well, first of all; i never used '3bt weave', nor did i call something a 'weave'
i meant the concept of 'weave' which is much wider and more encompassing than a single move, and is actually highly descriptive
(geeks 'r' us)
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
OK. the family of weave moves is when the poi are going in the same direction, right? *braces to be horriby wrong* In actual weaving, the threads are going at 90 degrees to each other. Sounds like we'd better change that one then!
OR to be literal: the warp threads are parallel. the weft threads are parallel. So I guess we'd better call it the half-weave family. OR the pre-weave family.
Cool. Got that sorted.
And why is a lockout called a lockout? etcetcetcetcetc. It is not an intrinsic thing. Naming does not create a body of 'correct' knowledge. Tis convention and fine and useful at that level for communicative purposes: but trying to justify these things as intrinsic or expect that they will ever become absolutes shows us more about the way people think than the nature of the 'reality". What do Germans call these moves? Russians? etc
(postmodernists 'r' us)
OK. the family of weave moves is when the poi are going in the same direction, right? *braces to be horriby wrong* In actual weaving, the threads are going at 90 degrees to each other. Sounds like we'd better change that one then!
OR to be literal: the warp threads are parallel. the weft threads are parallel. So I guess we'd better call it the half-weave family. OR the pre-weave family.
Cool. Got that sorted.
And why is a lockout called a lockout? etcetcetcetcetc. It is not an intrinsic thing. Naming does not create a body of 'correct' knowledge. Tis convention and fine and useful at that level for communicative purposes: but trying to justify these things as intrinsic or expect that they will ever become absolutes shows us more about the way people think than the nature of the 'reality". What do Germans call these moves? Russians? etc
(postmodernists 'r' us)
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
PLATINUM Member
Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
3,286 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
3,286 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Steve.
'nuff said
Steve.
'nuff said
ॐ
Owner of burningoftheclavey 
Owned by Lost83spy
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
so the general concensus is that people need a universal naming system, so that there is a universal poi 'language' that can be spoken and for the most part understood:
although it seems that individual names of moves don't matter so much, so long as it gets the idea across clearly, surely there has to be a question of how far you break it down, ie:
3bt weave
vs
3bt cross follow same direction split time move
hmmmm.... sounds like we need a glossary, with all the different names written in +videos
anyone remember arashi talking about spiders and cranes? that confused me no end until I actually met him
so the general concensus is that people need a universal naming system, so that there is a universal poi 'language' that can be spoken and for the most part understood:
although it seems that individual names of moves don't matter so much, so long as it gets the idea across clearly, surely there has to be a question of how far you break it down, ie:
3bt weave
vs
3bt cross follow same direction split time move
hmmmm.... sounds like we need a glossary, with all the different names written in +videos
anyone remember arashi talking about spiders and cranes? that confused me no end until I actually met him
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Mods! Malc! Quick! Where are ya! Lock the thread!
'Nuff said already!!!
If this goes on we'll start talking about Arashi names and then Richee'll turn up and we will revert to sheer Babel!
Hey that's an idea Let's start thinking up cool names and then invent the move to go with it!
(Ok I'll go to Chat
)
Written by :Brenn
Steve.
'nuff said
Mods! Malc! Quick! Where are ya! Lock the thread!
'Nuff said already!!!
If this goes on we'll start talking about Arashi names and then Richee'll turn up and we will revert to sheer Babel!
Hey that's an idea Let's start thinking up cool names and then invent the move to go with it!
(Ok I'll go to Chat
) .....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
LazyAngel, the issue of nomenclature comes up a lot. So a universal naming system is a great idea, but it will be difficult to get consensus judging by the comments so far.
Yes, I remember arashi talking about spiders and cranes .lol. those were the days
Personally, as a beginner I’d prefer to learn the standard names, and any synonyms. But I don’t think knowing the names is as important as knowing the moves.
Knowing the name of a move is not a problem for me as I do club swinging, and most of the standard moves like windmill, chase, fountain, reel etc have been documented for over a 150 years.
Gabe, you asked some interesting questions in this and the PoiGeek thread. Like “what’s a fountain? I thought that was a juggling term?”
A couple of things here. Firstly, you accept that there are standard names in juggling, so why shouldn’t poi be the same. I mean you would probably get lynched if you decided to call the three ball cascade some other made up name. But you seem to have a problem with poi people using a standard name like the three beat weave.
As far as the weave goes, the three beat weave (aka cross-and-follow or chase) is an asymmetric move where each poi does one swing on its side, and two swings on the other side of the body. Check out Counting the beats. In club swinging, the actual move to get into the weave is called the “over under” which I guess is similar to the 'crossing the palm' you describe.
Secondly, the fountain is a 4 ball/juggling move, but it is also used to describe a sequence of moves in poi or club swinging. Given that the modern juggling club was inspired by the Indian clubs, there is some cross over here. The three ball/club cross-and-follow being another example.
LazyAngel, the issue of nomenclature comes up a lot. So a universal naming system is a great idea, but it will be difficult to get consensus judging by the comments so far.
Yes, I remember arashi talking about spiders and cranes .lol. those were the days
Personally, as a beginner I’d prefer to learn the standard names, and any synonyms. But I don’t think knowing the names is as important as knowing the moves.
Knowing the name of a move is not a problem for me as I do club swinging, and most of the standard moves like windmill, chase, fountain, reel etc have been documented for over a 150 years.
Gabe, you asked some interesting questions in this and the PoiGeek thread. Like “what’s a fountain? I thought that was a juggling term?”
A couple of things here. Firstly, you accept that there are standard names in juggling, so why shouldn’t poi be the same. I mean you would probably get lynched if you decided to call the three ball cascade some other made up name. But you seem to have a problem with poi people using a standard name like the three beat weave.
As far as the weave goes, the three beat weave (aka cross-and-follow or chase) is an asymmetric move where each poi does one swing on its side, and two swings on the other side of the body. Check out Counting the beats. In club swinging, the actual move to get into the weave is called the “over under” which I guess is similar to the 'crossing the palm' you describe.
Secondly, the fountain is a 4 ball/juggling move, but it is also used to describe a sequence of moves in poi or club swinging. Given that the modern juggling club was inspired by the Indian clubs, there is some cross over here. The three ball/club cross-and-follow being another example.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
No I don't. Its quite handy. Just not likely in a hurry.. as you said, it's taken a long time to get 'standard' names in clubs/juggling which have been round for yonks. No doubt Maori women have standard names, but they do a lot of different stuff to us. What is a poi fountain anyway?
Exactly
Yep, I know what it is. And thanks for the link cos chasing those things takes time. But sad to say I have never found those kinds of descriptions/analyses the slightest helpful, they make my head spin instead of my poi. I can;t even follow them when I know exactly how to do the move.
What I AM good at though is seeing people do stuff and suggesting variants.. how they could move from a 'move' into something unique or choroegraphic etc.
OR getting people to events and feeding them while they nut out nomenclature I can then cheerily agree to.
See you soon!
Written by :Stone
Gabe, you asked some interesting questions in this and the PoiGeek thread. Like “what’s a fountain? I thought that was a juggling term?”
...seem to have a problem with poi people using a standard name like the three beat weave.
No I don't. Its quite handy. Just not likely in a hurry.. as you said, it's taken a long time to get 'standard' names in clubs/juggling which have been round for yonks. No doubt Maori women have standard names, but they do a lot of different stuff to us. What is a poi fountain anyway?
Written by :Stone
the three beat weave (aka cross-and-follow or chase)....club swinging....“over under”
Exactly Written by :Stone
an asymmetric move where each poi does one swing on its side, and two swings on the other...Counting the beats...etc
Yep, I know what it is. And thanks for the link cos chasing those things takes time. But sad to say I have never found those kinds of descriptions/analyses the slightest helpful, they make my head spin instead of my poi. I can;t even follow them when I know exactly how to do the move.
What I AM good at though is seeing people do stuff and suggesting variants.. how they could move from a 'move' into something unique or choroegraphic etc.
OR getting people to events and feeding them while they nut out nomenclature I can then cheerily agree to.
See you soon!
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
compfuzzled
1,182 posts
Location: hastings, England (UK)
Posted:
https://www.homeofpoi.com/lessons_all/teach/3_14_65
Written by :newgabe
What is a poi fountain anyway?
https://www.homeofpoi.com/lessons_all/teach/3_14_65
"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
Well, since we're talking about non-intuitive terminology... If each poi does the same thing, wouldn't that make the weave symmetrical? Essentially they are mirror images of each other, yes? Or does it only count as symmetry if they're doing the same thing at the same time, a la butterfly? But then the poi are moving in opposite directions - the symmetry is that they're both swinging toward each other (either both inside or both outside). What if the poi are both going clockwise on the wallplane in front of you - they're both doing the same thing, and moving the same direction, but it would appear asymmetrical...?
I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate here; I always thought the weave was considered a symmetrical move, whereas it would lose it's symmetry if you performed a lockout on one side, or an inverse, or another variation that you did not mirror on the other side.
Written by :Stone
As far as the weave goes, the three beat weave (aka cross-and-follow or chase) is an asymmetric move where each poi does one swing on its side, and two swings on the other side of the body.
Well, since we're talking about non-intuitive terminology... If each poi does the same thing, wouldn't that make the weave symmetrical? Essentially they are mirror images of each other, yes? Or does it only count as symmetry if they're doing the same thing at the same time, a la butterfly? But then the poi are moving in opposite directions - the symmetry is that they're both swinging toward each other (either both inside or both outside). What if the poi are both going clockwise on the wallplane in front of you - they're both doing the same thing, and moving the same direction, but it would appear asymmetrical...?
I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate here; I always thought the weave was considered a symmetrical move, whereas it would lose it's symmetry if you performed a lockout on one side, or an inverse, or another variation that you did not mirror on the other side.
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Newgabes right to point out the issues with 'weave' as a name.
The action of 'weave/cross-and-follow' is not like fabric weaving- it's far more akin to braiding/plaiting.
In juggling, the basic cascade is also akin to braiding- if a cord was attached to three balls, when juggled in a cascade, a plait would result.
So, both 'plait/braid' and 'cascade' would be a more descriptive term than 'weave' for the poi move.
Not, of course, that I'm suggesting a name change at this late point- simply pointing out that accuracy of description is not the be-all and end-all of poi move naming.
---------------------------
Having mentioned 'cross-and-follow'- for those being critical of unnecessary re-naming of poi moves: the term cross-and-follow has been a standard in club-swinging to describe the exact same move done with poi, now called 3-beat weave.
If not bringing in new names is important, then, technically, 'weave' should be abandoned in favour of the 'original' cross-and-follow.
--------------------
Practically speaking,of course, 'weave' is here to stay and, it does have one big advantage for poi moves, where 'beats' are more prominant than in club swinging.
3-beat-weave, five-beat-weave etc, roll off the tongue and are more consise than '5-beat-cross-and-follw'.
------------------------
Move names are generally of two types-
1. descriptive- eg 'cross and follow' which attempts to 'paint a picture' description of the move
2. technical- eg '3 beat weave' which may sacrifice descriptivity in favour of forming part of a consistent classificatory systm
Some people respond better to 'descriptive' terms- others respond better to 'technical' terms: for that reason, I'm happy to have both types floating about- even if it means the main moves have 2 terms to describe them.
--------------------------
Names aren't sacred (at least juggling/poi names aren't).
Here's an example of me 'changing' established diabolo move names cos I thought there was good reason to do so-
I teach diabolo in primary schools and refuse to use two long-established move names when teaching in primary schools-
'Genocides' and 'suicides'.
Why? Because some of those schools are in deprived areas with high levels of immigrants and asylum seekers- there's actually a good chance that, in some of those workshops, a child or two may be in this country because they have had actual experience of a 'genocide'.
If they have, i don't feel comfortable using that term in the context of a diabolo move.
Similarly, with 'suicides', it's a fair bet than in a group of 20 children, 1 or 2 of them will have felt the effects of a suicide in the family and, for them, that term will not seem as trivial to most, in the context of a diabolo trick.
So, I use 'stick release' rather than 'suicide'- not only is it not going to cause bad memories/upset for anyone, but it also is considerably more descriptive of the move.
When discussed on diabolo.ca forums, a lot of diabolists were highly critical of these, citing 'excessive pc-ness' or concerned that it would cause confusion.
Fair enough- but, at the end of the day, i'm not trying to actually change the established term- I'm basically coming up with an alternative for scenarios where the trad term isn't (IMO), appropriate.
And, whatever anyone thinks, I'm not going to use terms like 'genocide/suicide' for diabolo moves in a primary school workshop.
--------------------------------
One thing I don't agree with though, is when people take a well-estblished naming system and, because they fail to understand it, end up misnaming moves.
For example (and this is something that I remember NYC writing strong words about), the 'beat system' as used on HOP, is a logically consistent approach to describing moves with beats.
Occasionally, we see people trying to explain moves in terms of the beat system, yet it is clear they do not understand it, usually failing to grasp the proper way to count the beats.
Newgabes right to point out the issues with 'weave' as a name.
The action of 'weave/cross-and-follow' is not like fabric weaving- it's far more akin to braiding/plaiting.
In juggling, the basic cascade is also akin to braiding- if a cord was attached to three balls, when juggled in a cascade, a plait would result.
So, both 'plait/braid' and 'cascade' would be a more descriptive term than 'weave' for the poi move.
Not, of course, that I'm suggesting a name change at this late point- simply pointing out that accuracy of description is not the be-all and end-all of poi move naming.
---------------------------
Having mentioned 'cross-and-follow'- for those being critical of unnecessary re-naming of poi moves: the term cross-and-follow has been a standard in club-swinging to describe the exact same move done with poi, now called 3-beat weave.
If not bringing in new names is important, then, technically, 'weave' should be abandoned in favour of the 'original' cross-and-follow.
--------------------
Practically speaking,of course, 'weave' is here to stay and, it does have one big advantage for poi moves, where 'beats' are more prominant than in club swinging.
3-beat-weave, five-beat-weave etc, roll off the tongue and are more consise than '5-beat-cross-and-follw'.
------------------------
Move names are generally of two types-
1. descriptive- eg 'cross and follow' which attempts to 'paint a picture' description of the move
2. technical- eg '3 beat weave' which may sacrifice descriptivity in favour of forming part of a consistent classificatory systm
Some people respond better to 'descriptive' terms- others respond better to 'technical' terms: for that reason, I'm happy to have both types floating about- even if it means the main moves have 2 terms to describe them.
--------------------------
Names aren't sacred (at least juggling/poi names aren't).
Here's an example of me 'changing' established diabolo move names cos I thought there was good reason to do so-
I teach diabolo in primary schools and refuse to use two long-established move names when teaching in primary schools-
'Genocides' and 'suicides'.
Why? Because some of those schools are in deprived areas with high levels of immigrants and asylum seekers- there's actually a good chance that, in some of those workshops, a child or two may be in this country because they have had actual experience of a 'genocide'.
If they have, i don't feel comfortable using that term in the context of a diabolo move.
Similarly, with 'suicides', it's a fair bet than in a group of 20 children, 1 or 2 of them will have felt the effects of a suicide in the family and, for them, that term will not seem as trivial to most, in the context of a diabolo trick.
So, I use 'stick release' rather than 'suicide'- not only is it not going to cause bad memories/upset for anyone, but it also is considerably more descriptive of the move.
When discussed on diabolo.ca forums, a lot of diabolists were highly critical of these, citing 'excessive pc-ness' or concerned that it would cause confusion.
Fair enough- but, at the end of the day, i'm not trying to actually change the established term- I'm basically coming up with an alternative for scenarios where the trad term isn't (IMO), appropriate.
And, whatever anyone thinks, I'm not going to use terms like 'genocide/suicide' for diabolo moves in a primary school workshop.
--------------------------------
One thing I don't agree with though, is when people take a well-estblished naming system and, because they fail to understand it, end up misnaming moves.
For example (and this is something that I remember NYC writing strong words about), the 'beat system' as used on HOP, is a logically consistent approach to describing moves with beats.
Occasionally, we see people trying to explain moves in terms of the beat system, yet it is clear they do not understand it, usually failing to grasp the proper way to count the beats.
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But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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"Last of The Lancers"
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GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Thanks simta, that’s a great vid of a fountain.
Gabe, we all learn in different ways. You seem to have an aptitude for visualization rather than written descriptions. However, other people do find written descriptions and figures helpful. Catch you all soon
Mucky, I suppose it depends on how you look at the move. Check out Jilling’s description of the Cross and Follow.
OWD, well said:
I agree, while some names might be quirky, there is no sense coming up with new names that are only going to confuse people.
Thanks simta, that’s a great vid of a fountain.
Gabe, we all learn in different ways. You seem to have an aptitude for visualization rather than written descriptions. However, other people do find written descriptions and figures helpful. Catch you all soon
Mucky, I suppose it depends on how you look at the move. Check out Jilling’s description of the Cross and Follow.
OWD, well said:
Written by OWD
Not, of course, that I'm suggesting a name change at this late point- simply pointing out that accuracy of description is not the be-all and end-all of poi move naming.
I agree, while some names might be quirky, there is no sense coming up with new names that are only going to confuse people.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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