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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So today I was being coached in some new (for me) stuff.

We realised one of my problems is that I am so accustomed to using "palms up" as a base position. Due to it being a basic position for so much other stuff I do, it is the position that I constantly and automatically revert to it without thinking.

This was, however, quiet detrimental in the things I was attempting to learn at the moment.

While trying to remember to adapt I realize that it actually hurt my wrists to be palms down for prolonged times and that it is going to take a fair bit of time and practice to reset my muscle memory to include a palms down stance (I was thinking practicing dribbling two basketballs, perhaps? Think it would work?).
However, I don't want to focus so much on changing it that I lose the "palm up" stance, if that makes sense.

So, how do you reset muscle memory without losing what's already there?
How much do you practice the new vs. the old for retention?

Thoughts are greatly appreciated. beerchug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I don't think you can because from a sporting perspective, muscle memory is trained so it becomes automatic for a reason. You can work to change it permanently, but not temporarily.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...

Total posts: 1228
Posted:I think muscle memory is probably the wrong description. It's just like any other memory, in that it's connections of nerve cells in the brain, built up from repeating a pattern, until what was input can be used as output.

All you have to do is repeat another pattern.

Worked for me. Had to unlearn 3 beat weave after several years doing not much else, as it was difficult to stop anything new I was trying from transitioning into 3bt automatically. I just stopped doing 3bt completely, and worked on other things until they had enough 'muscle memory' of their own. Now I can use them in any combination.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:pele the palms up position is the bodies natural stance anatomically if you stand hands by sides and flex the elbows, as it produces the least strain on the elbow and wrist joints. if your wrists hurt after a period of palms down I would suggest gentle wrist and lower arm warm ups and stretches. Alternatively to prevent wrist pain you can raise your elbows from against your side to reduce the rotation at the joint.

if you work at a new skill you will develop new muscle memory but you won't lose the old as muscles can retain quite a lot kinesthetic recognition, hence the reasons we can learn som many lovelly tricks biggrin all you need to do is familiarise yourself with the new skill. the old skill will remain as long as there is the occassional practice just like you normal memory.

You would only need to "reset" the muscle memory if you have learned a movement or series of movements incorrectly. otherwise it is just a case of repatition until the muscles learn the movement. hug good luck, biggrin


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Such awesome answers....thank you so much!

It's alot to think about, for sure.

Mynci, I do warm up my arms because I have tendonitis, which is why I was so surprised that it hurt the way it did so quickly. Raise my elbows in what way? In experimenting after I read this, I noticed different...feelings? pulls? from different places depending on where my elbows were. I also will need to strengthen my shoulder support to do that often.

Thank you all so much!
beerchug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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pricklyleaf
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester, England (UK)

Total posts: 1365
Posted: Written by :polarity


I think muscle memory is probably the wrong description. It's just like any other memory, in that it's connections of nerve cells in the brain, built up from repeating a pattern, until what was input can be used as output.

All you have to do is repeat another pattern.

Worked for me. Had to unlearn 3 beat weave after several years doing not much else, as it was difficult to stop anything new I was trying from transitioning into 3bt automatically. I just stopped doing 3bt completely, and worked on other things until they had enough 'muscle memory' of their own. Now I can use them in any combination.



Ooo, thats a great idea, I always defalt into a 3 beat, I'm going to have to try that. Thanks! hug


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:The problem you're gettin g with discomfort in a hands down position is probably due to a lack of flexibility. having not used it so much, you've lost the elasticity in tht particular movement. like muscle atrophy when you don't use them enough.

A bit of gentle stretching should sort that out.

as for the learning thing, the main method I use is to relate it to something else, particularly to a different move that I can already do. This way my brain doesn't feel like it's so much of a new thing, and the learning process is made easier.

Good thread smile


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted:Imagination...

It is often the foundation in many aspects of performance art, or just art in general (duh!)

What I'm referring to specifically in this context is that imagination can help train you to stay in certain positions that aren't natural or comfortable.

When I was learning flowers, antispin or otherwise, I found it really difficult to keep my arms straight and outstretched in a parallel manner and keeping up the circles whilst maintaining that position. But one day I had the idea to pretend I was wearing those gloves you had when you were a kid - the ones connected with a length of elastic or spring between the two to stop you losing one - and that I was trying to pull the elastic taut as possible.

Or something as basic as pretending two staffs are one when doing an isolation.

With your natural 'palm up' position (I'm assuming this is for belly dancing) one might've said to you "pretend you're holding a tea-tray in each hand or you're holding a long plank of wood (that happens to intersect your neck).

If you apply the same thinking to your 'palms down' position, depending on what your mean exactly, you might say "pretend the plank of wood/tea-trays are relentlessly trying to defy gravity, stop them at all costs". If you keep that image in your head or another that makes more sense to you it should become easier to keeps your hands where they should be after training yourself.


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:It's all a matter of time I think... from my own experience, not long after my carpal tunnel started I got a bad case of tendonitis from the right side of my left wrist up to the base of my thumb, because I tried doing things like opening doors in different ways, not feeling comfortable about my wrist, without even thinking about it. It took months of physio until the lovely lady working on my hands found out that all the exercises made it worse, not better, and told me to retrain how to move my thumb and grip things. After about 2 weeks I was absolutely fine again.

So I suspect it's a mix of "instinct" like Mynci says and "training" as Polarity describes, and as long as you do both you should be fine. It's just like switching between types of props and tricks, but because you've been using that stance so much longer and more often it'll take a while to become natural to use a different one for some things smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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