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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:reading this-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/1



and this-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...5/o/all/fpart/2



i felt the need to make comment, but, the reply button would not work on either, so I guess they've been locked?



From the perspective of a (long-standing) member of the HOP community, i felt it was important to put forward two points-



1. why some may feel the need to talk about the banning of another long-standing member of the community, not necessarily to criticise those who made that decision, but, simply because that is what community members do when someone is exiled- they feel the need to talk about it



2. address the posted comment by a mod that, from the perspectice of a mod, any discussion of said members banning, is necessarily disrespectful to the mods



To elaborate on point 2, IMO, the discussion on the threads that have been removed or locked, did not come across as disrespectful to the mods.



To question a decision is not necessarily disrespectful.



It's true that the banning of NYC has gone largely unnoticed, till now. But, now, it has very much been noticed and, to expect this community to not talk about it, is, IMO, unrealistic.



There may be very good background reasons why it's seen as best for no discussion to take place, but, obviously, from the perspective of the community, those reasons are not known.



I know it's a difficult thing to make judgements on.



The main thing I want to say is that I find it very unpleasent when multiple threads are locked or removed, when, in my eyes, they contained nothing offensive.



I would also like the mods to examine the possibility that the pulled/stoped discussions are actually not disrespectful to HOP or the mods, but are simply members of the community discussing something which is important to them.



I'm assuming that this thread is not also going to be seen as disrespectful- it's certainly not intended as such.



If threads discussing this chain of events are going to be systematically pulled or locked, then, like many here, I'm going to be wondering whether I'm part of this community any more.



A community talks- that's the point of it.



If that talk is abusive, damaging, hurtful, then it has to be pulled- no questions about it.



But I'm concerned that what is developing here is the pulling of stuff that is not at all abusive, damaging or hurtful.



Banning someone for good reasons is one thing, but expecting the community to 'never again utter their name' is dodgy as hell smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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PyroWill
PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines
Member Since: 4th Aug 2004
Total posts: 4437
Posted:Pele, I feel you have completely twisted what I said and put words in my mouth.

I do not think I said anything harsh or insulting at all, yet as you said you have taken it personally? I haven't seen a single comment in this so called 'Pele Lynching' from anyone that gives the idea that no one likes you as a person. I don't really know you other than as hop mod and I would like to, because I'm sure we would get on well. But back to the point, none of this is directed at you as a person, only as your dealings with a mod, something which you shouldn't take personally which you said you just have. Maybe thats your problem?

I am not calling for your lynching! This has really annoyed me, it is clear you have taken what I said the wrong way and found it insulting. I am NOT calling for your lynching, merely saying that it is very clear that peoples faith in your mod status has been called into question and wondered whether it was at all POSSIBLE for a vote or something to be taken simply to see what peoples views are on this. I do not see that at all insulting and really wish you wouldn't take it personally, because it's not aimed at you Pele the person, it's aimed at Pele the mod, two people which you claim to be different from each other.


An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :PyroWill




A shame I believe, a mod should have the respect (not necesarily the admiration) but respect of the community,



For me, a mod so do what a mod should do, i.e.-

1. be objective
2. implement board guidelines impartialy
3. never post in an inflammatory manner
4. deal with anyone who does post in a flaming or troll fashion

And, for me, that's it- whether they have the respect of the community isn't anywhere near as relevant as whether they're doing their job properly.

Presumably, if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?

In that case, it would seem best to fault them on what it is they are specifically failing on?

The very last thing a mod should be aiming for, is winning admiration, respect or popularity- that should be irrelevant.

I've always found, amongst the juggling and spinning communities, that cliquism and 'popularity' is rife- I don't want it playing a part in HOP moderation.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol I love how the threads always keep on topic wink



Is there not another thread with the topic "HoP moderation - opinions please"?



Who is/ not a mod should not be business of the members, but the admin's - IMHO. (As been said before: If one (as a mod) takes unpopular decisions and at the same time is an active member of the board --- popularity decreases quickly. This would not mean that said mod is not doing a good job). It's not a totalitarian or user unfriendly decision.



But (IMO) it would be unwise to have the mods elected by the audience. At the same time we could just vote on every single member remaining on the board or not... footinmouth



Personally I like the diversity of this board, I like it that members tell each other what they think - dis/respectful or not - and as long as we're all able to locate that 'panic' button everything is good. Sure, damage dun and some ppl have their egos bruised beyond repair - big deal?



Just ease off and give it some time --- after all those who really know each other (and/ or themselves) will always find a way to cope... "Ignore it and it will go away."



"A 'mature' board - how boring!" would the majority think, right?



wink



[ed]Pyrowill - as much as I might misinterpret the wit that Meg is actually trying to get across, as much as I am considered to be the (only) 'button pusher' here [/ironic] - you may just have to accept for a split second that what Pele is saying is her impression from what she reads.



Beyond all frustration that one gets misunderstood - when sitting back and acknowledging the other ones feelings, instead of invalidating them, we do a great deal of moderation to ourselves.



How often have I reconsidered my perception and then read my and other peoples posts again - resulting in a different way to look at it.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1210335546)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by :Pyrolific


*imagines Spanner reading this and saying..."yeah right..."* wink



Lol - your words, not mine! tongue

I want to start by saying in at least one way, I think this thread has been very positive and healthy for HoP. It reminds me when I first joined back in 2003 when HoPers old and new felt confident enough to say what they really thought and I've very fond memories of the great debates which were had because of that atmosphere ubblove

 Written by :Pyrolific


Now I read your post twice Spanner, and I might be wrong, but in all that, there were no specific suggestions for improvements.




biggrin I can hardly believe you read it twice, even quoted it and missed out why:

 Written by :Spanner


I'm generalising again, because I have to go out in a minute, but there is a lot of other people's points I'd like to respond to, so for now I'm just going to echo what others have said about hoping that this thread hasn't been done away with in the meantime and that some heated response is understandable when people are posting what they can, when and while they can.



 Written by :Pyrolific

I did pick up perhaps some insinuation that some mods should step down, and that perhaps mods should act with a united front?




If a moderator is mostly absent, they should step down completely, temporarily depending on the circumstances.

If any moderator is being commonly perceived as influencing the discussion and/or moderation beyond the remit of their role, whether that is their intention or not, to the extent that members are complaining and the moderator will not admit there is a problem, this suggests that they're either unaware of their effect or are just choosing not to adjust it to fit the needs of the evolving community. In this case, both they and HoP should reconsider their position.

This doesn't necessarily mean we should replace existing moderators and I'm glad some people have spoken up in their defence, that's all very nice, but they'd do well to stick to what they're good at. For example, some are better at promoting fire safety, some are better at engaging old school HoPers and so on. It would then be helpful if they had specific roles, maybe in signatures, so you know who's best to approach for what. On the other hand I really appreciate George's fresh eye on things and find he's pretty fair as a result.

 Written by :Pyrolific

But really, your original post that I was responding to with my query re: specific improvement suggestions made it seem that you are a member of many other large forums where millions of things are done better than they are here.




I don't know where you're plucking the millions figure from but yes, from what I've witnessed, it's no coincidence that the more successful forums of any scale tend to share a common policy on moderation.

 Written by :bluecat


 Written by :Pyrolific


Can you please now share with us some of these great ideas?

surely if you care about HOP as you say you do, you wouldnt mind posting some friendly constructive criticism?




*hopes josh read bluecats post, not just spanners*




Quite. I thought there'd already been a lot of that in many members' posts in this thread alone and I did get the feeling they're not really being acknowledged confused
By the way Bluecat, I also think you might be right about the *mods hat on* not working in feedback threads like these, but I'd like to see how re-introducing it to the - hopefully rare - occasions it's needed on non-HoP politics threads.

 Written by :Pyrolific


In fact, I've been criticised by some members for being too soft, and trying to see too much good in people and other related wussy things wink



Which is interesting as we currently see moderators are also being criticised for being too hard. Maybe there's the tendency to attempt to solve this by switching to the other extreme end instead of the "moderate" middle way.

Ade, I did find your post was quite unhelpful in that way, the other end of that scale presumably being to do bugger all but argue while members wander off and the community dies... oh, wait frown


 Written by :Ade


1. eveytime a member is banned to sing it from the rafters loudly, so that everyone knows about it eek




How about every time a member is banned, simply changing their tagline to "banned" so their friends at least know they won't be able to use HoP as what may be the only line of communication they have with them?

 Written by :Ade


2. to give banned members a public shaming by changing their tag lines to 'banned' eek




I'm interested to know what happens when a members PMs a moderator to ask where a banned user is. If the answer's the same, isn't that just as much in the "public domain"?
If a member's behaviour is genuinely proportional to and warranting a ban, they should expect not to be looked upon favourably by the community. I can't remember anyone complaining when spammers or invading trolls get banned. There should be no exceptions: either someone deserves it or they don't and if they don't, they probably don't deserve a ban either.

 Written by :Ade


4. that when someone is banned, the entire community gets to pick over the bones of the decision and put their 2 cents in if they think differently to our moderators eek




The key word here is community: we all have poi in common and we are very kindly provided with a forum in which to discuss it as well as others to discuss our other shared loves. The administration of HoP is obviously one of those which crops up time and again with very passionate views, often vented after having been bottled up for want of somewhere appropriate.

I'd propose a feedback forum open for all members, which is possibly what the controversial, hidden senior lounge should've been, to make the evolution of HoP an ongoing process rather than something which only erupts in and interferes with what happens in the rest of Social Discussion.

 Written by :Birgit


2. Since apparently people have missed the "you can move threads, too!" announcement - how about sending round a newsletter by pm every time a major change is introduced? If possible with the option on the settings page to receive it or not.



This could alternatively take the format of a log thread in a feedback forum with a summary in the first post so people could check in to see what's new and contribute.

 Written by :ben-ja-men


Hop is not a democracy whereby we elect moderators based on who is popular and who is not, Hop is a business run by Malcolm. For whatever reason Pele has Malcolm's trust and respect, if you have a complaint about the service you are receiving then he is who you should be talking to.




No, HoP isn't a democracy and has never claimed to be. What Malcolm does with his business is up to him, but he's created a monster - erm, I mean community - along the way. As both business and community contributes to keeping each other going to an extent and, the community here and IRL aren't independent of each other, he and those whoever he has charged with the task of keeping it flying straight should expect members to want a two-way discussion on it's path, rather than being stonewalled.

 Written by :Rouge Dragon


And I'm going to be brave and ponder the motivation behind the people wanting more mods; are they saying they should be one? Now I know this isn't the case for everyone, but I do get the impression from some people that the motivation behind wanting more mods, or wanting pele replaced is that they want to do it themselves (moderate, that is. Not take pele out!) and this concerns me.



I haven't seen anything from anyone with those views which suggests they want to be moderators confused I've moderated on request elsewhere before and it's not as easy as it looks, but that doesn't mean moderators should be exempt from criticism. Knowing what it's like, I'd suggest that anyone who aims to be one, probably shouldn't be.

 Written by :PyroWill


I do not see that at all insulting and really wish you wouldn't take it personally, because it's not aimed at you Pele the person, it's aimed at Pele the mod, two people which you claim to be different from each other.



This. It's my opinion that Will's post met the 4 way test. I can't see what was so much worse about it than my post about Pele which wasn't commented upon at all, but then I can't see what was so much worse about my post about the whole moderator team that was so much worse than PK's. This is an example of the inconsistent approach I mentioned earlier.

However little the moderators like them, our observations do not automatically = attack. It just seems that those who feel attacked on this thread are finding it easier to take it personally rather than to acknowledge that there's a problem, which only serves to distract from making progress to solve it.

As for PMing mods, I think it's appropriate for the vast majority of cases but there's not as much accountability because - as far as I can see - it's one person's word against anothers. Given what I've heard on the HoP grapevine and seen in person about what's been said via PM about HoP moderation, I think it's better for all concerned that it's all out in the open in this case.

Anyway, that's enough for now, though there's more. I'm off to lick my wounds - I would've thought that Flash had seen enough of my posts over the years to know that if I was really calling her out, I would've given it a better shot wink


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:HoP hasn't had a problem in a *very* long time, this doesn't actually prove that it's working perfectly under the hood, it only shows that no problem has come up till now which is a testament to the good nature of the community. Openly discussing the issue, and working out a better system for handling any situation based on what has been learn as a preventative measure is definitely the way to go.



The solution (imo, & apologies as some of this is basically going to be copying in what I've said before in 2 threads) :



Higher mod turnover.
Higher mod accountability (as detailed earlier, and quoted in again bellow)
Hire a bunch more mods, it doesn't matter if they have an incredibly high post count, where they are from, or even to a point how long they've been on, all that matters is from their post history, you think they appear to be relatively responsible. Mods should not have the permission level to completely wreck the place even a little bit anyway.
If they turn out to be not suitable for any reason at any time ie. don't appear to be doing anything in any of the mod logs/mod action forums or that from those logs/user feedback are abusing their privelages in any way they just go back to being regular user.
Try to aim to having at least 2 mods online at any given time through cross timezone hiring, and 2 or 3 per 500 active users.
Mods should not be compelled in any way to post any more than any normal user, ie, post only when they feel they have something they actually want to post about,

them being available on the board to do the job at hand is what matters, the exception of course being they are expected to post when moderation action is required.





By higher turnover I do not in any way mean you should 'fire' current mods if they are doing what is expected of them, or that you should go on a massive recruitment drive constantly, just that when mod numbers aren't thought to be high enough, or it's thought the current mods are out of touch with the current community, it's an efficient fair way for taking action quickly & arguing less over it.



Higher turnover means you can quickly filter excellency/hard working/efficient/present/liked mods from a diverse cross section and build up an efficient team that can change ea silly however the community may change.

This should take a considerable amount of stress off choosing mods as you are expecting, and should let it be known, that as much as 80% of hires will likely be pruned, no-one should take offence at this.

Anyone that considers being a mod a right, or a status symbol, should probably not be a mod in the first place.



It's like stewards at a big festival, you want people who are keen to help manage the community, not help themselves or their own ego's.



On that note I commend flash fire for offering to step down, that's not to say I think she should, I have no idea whatsoever why she's offered to, but to me that shows the right mindset for a mod.



It's expected that some will not be technically competent and may take a while to learn whatever modding system is in place, but they may be more in touch with the some of the users, a diverse cross section of mods is important, ultimate moderation to the point of not doing anything but efficiently reorganising post locations on the one hand, the ultimate banhammer on the other.



Being a mod is not something that's meant to aggrandise an individual user, it's simply meant to help keep the community safe from spam, trolls, and extreme flaming, and keep posts & threads in the right forums.



 Written by :FireTom

it would be unwise to have the mods elected by the audience.

Time consuming yes, unwise, no. It works a bit quicker for admins to quickly chose a few, and then see if the populace vote them out afterwards.



The admins rule is law, ultimately they set the rules but any site will be made or broken by those rules if they do not adequately take into account the will of the people.

The mods however are there to assist in enforcing those rules and guiding the community, and should absolutely be representative of the people. Chaos can not ensue as they do not have the power of an admin, and they are monitored by admins and other mods alike.



 Written by :Yakumo

a well run system has total mod accountability to other mods and admins. Common systems include many or all of the following, either out of the box or by highly popular plugins :



* Any moderator action is tracked by the system and viewable by all other mods, if any mod is abusing their powers it should come to light and the admins should remove moderator status.

* Mods can soft delete/or move to hidden archives.

* Only supermods/admins can physically delete things, not mods.



* A report posts gets generated in a hidden forum when 'report this' is hit by a user, action taken is then done as a manual reply by the mod and thread locked, lets all mods online chip in on tricky decisions easily and rapidly.

* Mod stealth editing of a post massively discouraged or filling in the 'edit reason' simply forced as a required action.





Implement as much of the above as is possible that isn't already in place, and use it to implement mod turnover.



Yes I'm an opinionated b***er on this from experience, sorry smile



Edit: forgot to mention policy, putting it here so it's all in one post -

Any forum rules are prominently displayed, some are instantly enforcable (advertising, spam) some require moderation flaming/varying levels of trolling.

Any change in general policy should be added to the rules immediately for users to see.



Temp bans should be an option on the system to cool heads, perm bans for worst offenders/spambots obviously.



'temp ban' / 'banned' user titles are a must imo, and blanking avatars on a perm banned user. This isn't my or Spanners idea, it's simply common practice and the default out of the box on some systems.



Deleting everything a user ever said if perm banned is ridiculous except when their entire intent was to troll the forum, or advertise.

(Though contrary to an earlier suggestion "Delete * from postTable where userid=X" is not hard to do, but I'd be rather surprised if the forum doesn't already have admin options for purging a user completely. Some, like vbulletin (one of the most popular for very heavy use forums) have a 'delete user/all posts as spam' options for mods.



Offtopic a little but if anyone's interested in forum software statistics globally check out http://www.big-boards.com

EDITED_BY: Yakumo (1210349482)


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok. Stop. EVERYONE STOP.

Leaving this thread aside, would someone please post an example of a time when Pele or any other mod has behaved in a manner so biased as to be completely reprehensible?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:This one time at bandcamp...


(heh heh)


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:I just finished posting my edit above, so saw your post doc, and I've got no idea why your bringing Pele back into this, we're discussing efficient forum management in a way I hope can be constructive and not derailed.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yakumo, because I've seen a lot of braying about her but nobody's brought up a specific incident outside of this thread.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:Posting isnt the only form of activity but how else do you judge activity on the site. If a member/mod reads every post but doesnt respond it doesnt mean thyey arent active . We cant see what the serene little ducks are doing underwater.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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burningoftheclavey
burningoftheclavey

lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
Location: over yonder
Member Since: 22nd Jul 2005
Total posts: 926
Posted: Written by :Spanner


 Written by :Pyrolific


In fact, I've been criticised by some members for being too soft, and trying to see too much good in people and other related wussy things wink



Which is interesting as we currently see moderators are also being criticised for being too hard. Maybe there's the tendency to attempt to solve this by switching to the other extreme end instead of the "moderate" middle way.




I've got it! All we need to do is have Pele and flash mod together....it'll be like good cop, bad cop! biggrin grouphug sunny


on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by :Gnor


Posting isnt the only form of activity but how else do you judge activity on the site. If a member/mod reads every post but doesnt respond it doesnt mean thyey arent active . We cant see what the serene little ducks are doing underwater.



That's what I was thinking.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Sides Doc shrug

My last post has been a bit cryptic, excuse me I was distracted.

Mods should be chosen by the Admins, only the Admins and the Admins alone. Public opinion has nothing to do with this topic. If they choose to have the audience de/select Mods then just as a courtesy, period.

A Mod is a good Mod when he is present and does his job, takes decisions/ actions that might even be highly unpopular - as happened here.

Apart from that: is this about Megs and Robs threads getting closed, NYC's ban or what is the topic exactly? confused

Sorry got lost somewhere between the threads... shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


For me, a mod so do what a mod should do, i.e.-

1. be objective
2. implement board guidelines impartialy
3. never post in an inflammatory manner
4. deal with anyone who does post in a flaming or troll fashion

And, for me, that's it- whether they have the respect of the community isn't anywhere near as relevant as whether they're doing their job properly.

Presumably, if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?

In that case, it would seem best to fault them on what it is they are specifically failing on?

The very last thing a mod should be aiming for, is winning admiration, respect or popularity- that should be irrelevant.

I've always found, amongst the juggling and spinning communities, that cliquism and 'popularity' is rife- I don't want it playing a part in HOP moderation.



I agree with you on all points OWD, and would like to put up this for thought.

If a person, mod, police officer, school principal, follows those guidelines then sometimes *that* is what makes him/her unpopular, esp due to the clique(tribe/village) nature of humanity and the desire to protect it.

And yes, I know alot of people respect police, etc. But I also know people who have had friends/loved ones arrested for what honestly might seem to be something small but still illegal (a joint, for example) and now they, as a collective, have no respect for the police.

Just a thought to share.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:But respect still needs to be earned. One cannot simply demand respect simply because they've got a certain job.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:But Rouge, nobody ever taught you to respect Santa? umm wink

By what is respect earned anyway? You'll always find some snotbag coming around the corner and being larger than life... ubblol

Point being: whatever your 'natural authority' - especially on the internet only those who keep quiet in the background will be respected - those who are on public display will always receive criticism... I reckon.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Santa can drive a sleigh after drinking litres of brandy! RESPECT!!! ubblol



I don't think it's about being on public display; you can still be on public display and respected. I often think in terms of teachers at school; the teachers that demanded respect without earning any HATED me because I didn't respect them. On the other hand, there were teachers who earned my respect and many of those still have it. Some teachers even realised that my respect couldn't be demanded and had to be earned, and we got along fine after they realised that and then earned it.



So how did they earn my respect?



Hmmm....by not treating me like scum, by treating me like a person, being approachable, realistic, didn't yell all the time and only when needed, didn't take themselves seriously, didn't think they were god (hehe, there was a teacher who thought he was god and i took great pleasure in refusing to admit it!).



Interestingly enough, a lot of the teachers who had my respect were ones who would look at the rules and acknowledge that they didn't always apply. Like the teacher who let us snack in class (as long as it was healthy) because students don't work well with an empty stomach...not that I can think where that applies to mods, I'm just braintorming ways my respect has been earned...and that's all I can think of for now, but it's probably the general drift.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted: Written by :Firetom

Mods should be chosen by the Admins, only the Admins and the Admins alone. Public opinion has nothing to do with this topic. If they choose to have the audience de/select Mods then just as a courtesy, period.

Yes, but as I said if the admins want a successful and loved site/forum they will listen to their users. This forum was put up for communicating with customers, but also as a means for building what is one of the best forms of advertising you can possibly hope for, and at a low cost, a community of devout users.

(edit: nb. In one of my previous posts I said 'vote them out' after admins appoint. I didn't mean literally hold a vote, just respond to user feedback)



So community support of group in charge of the site is important, a current example of it going wrong would be ukhippy, I can no longer count the number of stories I've heard of people being banned for no apparent reason, there are people openly campaigning against it on youtube now, it would seem that site is beginning to eat itself to death though this may take a long time.

One thing I haven't previously specifically pointed out about the NYC issue is : A lot of people think people vanish from hop for long periods of time, or completely. With what happened with NYC we've seen that potentially some of them were also simply black-bagged and we simply never got to hear anything more about it. Quite likely none of them were, but it sure makes me uncomfortable and this is one of the other major reasons I decided to chip in on and subscribe to this thread.



 Written by :onewheeldave



A Mod is a good Mod when he is present and does his job, takes decisions/ actions that might even be highly unpopular - as happened here.

As said before, a healthy cross section of mods is important, but abuse of moderator powers is different to stringently enforcing the rules.



 Written by :onewheeldave

And, for me, that's it- whether they have the respect of the community isn't anywhere near as relevant as whether they're doing their job properly.



Presumably, if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?



In that case, it would seem best to fault them on what it is they are specifically failing on?



The very last thing a mod should be aiming for, is winning admiration, respect or popularity- that should be irrelevant.

I believe you're wrong, as mods not having respect of/being liked by the community is what drives people AWAY from that community more so than if they simply disliked a user.

A user doesn't hold the shadow of censorship/banning over them.

Mods are like deputies, admins are sheriffs, if you're massively unhappy with the deputies and the sheriff's too busy to deal with you, or refuses to doubt his deputies, how would you feel?



HoP is very big already which gives it a pull in factor, but if in the beginning mods were present and not liked/respected irrespective of complying with your 4 listed points, the forum would have had a significantly harder time getting off the ground.



 Written by :Pele

if a mod has no respect, it would be because, in some way, they are not following points 1-4?

Respect is about far more than those few rules, and means more than simply recognizing authority.



You also do not *need* to be respected to be a good, or even excellent mod, teacher, policeman etc but it helps.It is however a massive disadvantage for yourself, those you work with and work for, if you are disliked.


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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Kusanagi
newbie
Location: Canada
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 23
Posted:Being quite new around here, all I can offer are observations that are unrelated to anyone in particular.

Seems like a problem arises from the apparent dichotomy of this entity known as HoP. On one hand, it is a business. Businesses have formal obligations, bottom lines, liabilities, etc... and thus have to be run a certain way. On the other hand, it is a community. Communities are organic in that they are informal, flexible, growing, changing and like to cater to their members needs. However, from what is being discussed here, it seems like some want it run more like a business, some more like a community.

Of course, there will be a mix of both; but the ideal 50/50 ratio is very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to attain. Many forums have crashed and burned trying to figure out their ideal ratio (for lack of a better word). The secret to success, it seems, is to have the majority agree that your proportions of each are sound. For example, if you look at both extremes of the spectrum:

Business extreme example: As businesses have liabilities and can potentially be sued, any topic involving private matters of members will be kept strictly confidential. Moderators do not have to be visible or friendly, they are simply there to ensure proper functioning of the forums, as per previously established rules so that general discontent does not affect potential sales. Users cannot modify anything on the board because it opens the door to potential dissent (ie not all users will agree on one thing being moved to that place or the other) and thus may result in user discontent and thus potential loss of sales.

Community extreme example: Making money is not important, rules are not important. Coming together in celebrating poi and other objects is what matters. We do not need admin/mods because we know each other all so well that we self regulate in synergy. We all agree on everything and we care about one another and our community so much that banning is not required: a member who doesnt agree with the community would self-exile for the greater good of the community and of him/herself.

Obviously, there is good and bad in both extremes. (And please guys, these are *extremes*, meant to do nothing more than to illustrate *g* )

Chances are, the apparent clash will not be resolved until the ratio has been determined, hopefully by general consensus. Once it is determined, then a plan of action can be implemented along the same lines. Otherwise, the same issues are likely to come up again and again.

I hope that I have expressed what I meant in a neutral way bc it is: Im too new here to have an opinion one way or the other and I do not know the persons discussed above.

I just really like poi weavesmiley ( <-- is this the coolest smiley ever or what?) and being able to discuss it with a big bunch of potential new friends! biggrin

HTH some,

K.


Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it hold the universe together.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Just for clarification and so there are no miscommunications, Yakumo, those that are written as quotes from me are actually from One Wheeled Dave.

I also would like George, or Malcolm to step in here to clarify the job of an Admin now that it is being pulled into this.

On HoP, traditionally, Admins have the *same* power as mods, not more. The main difference is that they actually administer technical changes/advancements to the bb and in the case of HoP, two of them are the higher ranking positions in the HQ as well.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted: Written by :Pele

Just for clarification and so there are no miscommunications, Yakumo, those that are written as quotes from me are actually from One Wheeled Dave.

My apologies that was a complete oversight, I've corrected it, I hope you weren't too offended as you had said you agreed entirely with his comments.



In my posts I've been referring to things with their traditional roles, admins on forums/CMSs etc have considerably more power than mods which are specifically designed to let people less trusted or community users moderate user contributed content.

In many systems admins have unrestricted abilities (create/modify/delete pages, forums, users & permissions), in some there is a separate 'superadmin' or 'root' user for full access instead, but admins still have considerably more access than anything lower on the user account priorities. A mod is one up from 'user' and has basic correctional abilities, thread moving, soft delete, banning/infraction systems to stop trolling and spam, admins control everything else, 'users' are one up from guest, and often the only difference is having a reserved name and maybe stored preferences.



Just in case there's still any misunderstanding I've not been posting to belittle anything or anyone, merely wanted to offer my experience of well running very robust systems that have weathered far, far worse than I've ever heard of here, and know it was taken into consideration.

A good system practically runs itself.


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Thanks for the input Kusanagi. Its always useful to have a new persons observations that have no history or knowledge of the past of the board and community, and so should be totally impartial smile

Welcome to HOP by the way, and you are totally correct about the weavesmiley icon! Its awesome. hug


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:No offense at all Yakumo, I just wanted to give credit where it is due. smile
Thanks! beerchug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Malcolm
Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP
Member Since: 18th Nov 2003
Total posts: 995
Posted: Written by :Pele



On HoP, traditionally, Admins have the *same* power as mods, not more. The main difference is that they actually administer technical changes/advancements to the bb and in the case of HoP, two of them are the higher ranking positions in the HQ as well.





Correct!


"May your balls always burn"

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spinningstarlet
spinningstarlet

enthusiast
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*
Member Since: 29th Aug 2006
Total posts: 271
Posted:I know i'm not really a particulary active member of this board, but i do post occasionally, and i do follow a lot of threads.

I'm not even reallysure how relavant this is but my suggestion would be to have mods, maybe more than one, maybe not, but for each mod/admin to have only one area of he board as their primary responsibility. ie, one (or more) mod(s) focused on discussion/chat/intros/technical etc. They have just as much power, and just as much input, and obvs if something huge does need to be sorted each mod has a different view that can be combined to an overall unbiased conclusion (not that i'm saying it is biased now smile)

toobs
x


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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted: Written by :Malcolm


 Written by :Pele


On HoP, traditionally, Admins have the *same* power as mods, not more. The main difference is that they actually administer technical changes/advancements to the bb and in the case of HoP, two of them are the higher ranking positions in the HQ as well.



Correct!



Wait what? are you saying only the highlighted part of that is correct? so someone has actually purposefully removed intentionally tiered power structures?

If so it does reveal the root of your current mod dilemma, taking so long to consider new ones, you can't trust anyone enough to give them that level of power.


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted: Written by :bluecat



HoP Posting Guidelines

Is it the Truth?

Is it Fair to all concerned?

Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?

Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?



ubblol



if all posts in this thread were to fulifill guideline no 3 we'd have a very short thread.



josh;

i already had an excellent PM conversation with George about it, but heres a public summary, with a few more thoughts, from me (i do kinda feel responsible for this, even though i did get my issues sorted out a while ago ubblol )



more consideration over why threads are banned/moved - less 'reaction modding';



letting people know why their threads have been banned/moved (this was the biggie for me). this to include major contributors to the thread if possible



moderators to remain moderate in their personal posting behaviour (the words *takes mod hat off* don't mean much, and intimidates people, unfortunately)



meg to be more respectful (i'm working on this one behind the scenes, i promise biggrin), cause she actually has great points when you get past the crap ubblol



and allow discussion of difficult topics - it was obvious people wanted to talk about NYC but repetition of 'discussion will not be tolerated' from mods was absolutely shocking and has made me seriously consider my own permanent removal from HOP frown fortunately the topic moved on to to 'what are the issues' and i came back from the brink.



I know you say that HOP is open in comparison to other boards you mod on, but all that statement makes me want to do is totally avoid these other boards. shrug



i hope this helps and doesn't just provoke more outrage.



frown





Hey Mog,



I wanted to address your points as from re-reading the last few pages of this thread again, you seem to raise points that can be addressed;



RE reaction modding;



I think this is a good point: mods should never knee jerk delete / move without a pointer. Perhaps we should flag certain threads / posts as 'under observation' or 'potentially breaking the rules'



letting people know when threads are moved;



I think this is supposed to be happening either by pointer PM or Email, however if you feel its not happening, then we need to address this. perhaps we need a 'moved to quarantine' pointer for threads mods feel need to be carefully considered but not deleted. This would reduce the angst perhaps for people when a thread gets moved to recycle (where the mods and admins can discuss it outof public view)



moderate mods;



I think this is mostly the case, this thread being a bit of an exception, and understandably so - several mods (perhaps all the mods??) being asked to stand down for various reasons including; not being respected enough, not posting enough/not being involved enough, not being moderate enough, etc etc can cause a bit of upset, and a human reaction.



RE discussion of difficult topics - I don't actually perceive this as being a big problem on HOP. the original NYC thread being moved to recycle by a mod and this thread being moved to retired by someone (not a mod) being current examples, but most of the time I dont think there is much censorship, and I would be aware of it because I can see the threads that go to recycle. Recycle is very much a boring trash can to go over, the occasional blatant product promotion, several threads deleted at the request of users, etc, etc. I understand that some people reading this thread seem to be unable to trust that *anyone* on the mod team is telling the truth, and short of making the recycle bin an open forum (thus defeating the purpose of its existence) I dont see how this can be achieved.



RE the other sites I'm on that are not as open as this;



hows this for an example of totalitarianism;



from an unnamed fluffy hippy forum someone got banned and had posts deleted because a mod 'thought he was a dickhead timewaster' . This, on a very friendly happy go lucky and open site.



Another site supporting people building PA cabinets banned a user for posting questions 'deliberately aimed at undermining the business that supports the site' Again, a friendly and fairly open community.



I could go on I guess, but its not neccessary. I'm not really sure what people want - do you want it so that no-one can get banned for anything?



On the matter of NYCs banning;



I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.



in terms of improving the situation , I think it would be great (and yes this will need to be coded into the script that runs the forum, and I dont know how hard it is) if we could flag posts and responses to posts in such a way that we could then filter by warning / attention flag and bring up a concise representation of the activities of a user that need attention.



I also think that Yakumo's ideas about tracking mod activity is a good one.

EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1210556682)


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:I'm very glad to hear there is a recycle bin system, but is it mandatory or can mods permanently delete?

 Written by :Pyrolific

in terms of improving the situation , I think it would be great (and yes this will need to be coded into the script that runs the forum, and I dont know how hard it is) if we could flag posts and responses to posts in such a way that we could then filter by warning / attention flag and bring up a concise representation of the activities of a user that need attention.


Everything I've mentioned so far is achievable with plugins in other forums, or inbuilt, hence their common use, I'll read up more on ubb.threads options later, but version incompatibilities could be a problem on hop as if there's a fair hunk of custom hacks i could imagine it hasn't been upgraded in a while.
The fact that a post has been reported should be stored in the sql db already hopefully, rather than just firing off a message to the mod lounge. This is also useful as it's handy to flag a message with 'this post has been reported' so other users know where it stands, it's obvious from the content if it's been reported as people want it stickied as it's great, or want it removed/edited as it's awful.

A query to pull all posts from a user with the report flag set would then be trivial. Doing this as a proper ubb.threads plugin to withstand system upgrades less so, but an easy alternative is a mod-only locked page just for running that query.
This does seem a very good idea, but perhaps I haven't seen it implemented before as it doesn't present the other side of the user for evaluation?


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by : Pyro

On the matter of NYCs banning;

I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.



Dunno, personally I deleted (some of) my posts because they were off topic and because I wanted to say: "let's just forget it and move on." Personally (as already stated) I only reported him once again as he threatened (to report) me, just because I opposed his opinion months later (in a respectful way, well within the posting guidelines). He 'freaked'.

Is it really that some of the audience here has so much suspicion against the (common) decision to (temporarily) ban NYC that the presentation of evidence is necessary?

I really wonder what this is about?

It's been explained many times and I do believe it, when George, the mods and Malcolm say that the decision to ban (a member that has contributed to the community so much in all these years like) NYC "indeed has been a tough one". Don't you? (no not you, Pyro... excuse to put this into this context.)

This thread seems to revolve around itself only for the sake of itself and to perpetuate a drama - this even though the reasons have been explained a few times already, everybody has stated that he mourns NYC as a member, but nobody really believes it... ???

With all my due respect for your thread OWD: Personally I do/did not enjoy becoming a target - be it from NYC or an other member. Personally I do believe that anyone would enjoy 'protection' by the Mods if s/he's a target of bullying or repeated targeting - regardless whether the dude is an oldtimer or a noob.

Has the staff of HoP given you (the members) so many reasons to be distrustful of their decisions? Or given you reasons to believe that they do not care about the community? Or put the interests of a single member over that of the entire community?

IMHO the staff of HoP values each and every member - even more if s/he has contributed to the community for many years. If NYC 'has moved on' (from HoP) after his ban and does not intend to come back, even though the door is open - why (as a community) don't we?

shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Is it really that some of the audience here has so much suspicion against the (common) decision to (temporarily) ban NYC that the presentation of evidence is necessary?




Yes.

I think it's obvious that some here do feel that way.

I wouldn't go so far as to say evidence is necessary, but it would be desirable.

If people witnessed the alleged abuses, then there would be no doubt in anyones mind- if they don't witness any of it, then there will be doubt.

As as been explained, there are reasons why much of what occurred will not be made public, but, as Pyro says-


 Written by :Pyrolific



I think some things could have been done better - firstly, I think it was a mistake to allow the deletion of posts that form the body of evidence of the case for NYC's banning. If they still existed, it would be possible for anyone to go over them, and see the evidence that we based our decisions on.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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