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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:In the wake of the Tibetan unrest it might be obvious that it's absurd to hold Olympic Games in China.



 Written by : Wiki

Some international groups attempted to pressure the IOC to reject Beijing's bid in protest of the state of human rights in the People's Republic of China. One Chinese dissident who expressed similar sentiments was arrested and sentenced to two years in prison for calling on the IOC to do just that at the same time that IOC inspectors were touring the city. Amnesty International expressed concern in 2006 regarding the Olympic Games to be held in China in 2008, likewise expressing concerns over the human rights situation. The second principle in the Fundamental Principles of Olympism, Olympic Charter states that The goal of Olympism is to place sport at the service of the harmonious development of man, with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity. Amnesty International considers the policies and practices of the People's Republic as failing to meet that principle, and urged the IOC to press China to immediately enact human rights reform.





Tibetan Women movement criticising the move to hold Olympic Games in Bejing



 Written by : TWA

The Olympic Charter's Fundamental Principles



1. Modern Olympism was conceived by Pierre de Coubertin, on whose initiative the International Athletic Congress of Paris was held in June 1894. The International Olympic Committee (IOC) consituted itself on 23rd June 1894. In August 1994, the XII Congress, Centennial Olympic Congress, which was entitled "Congress of Unity", was held in Paris.

2. Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a way of life based on the joy found in effort, the educational value of good example and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

3. The goal of Olympism is to place everywhere sport at the service of the harmonious development of man, with a view to encouraging the establishment of a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity. To this effect, the Olympic Movement engages, alone or in cooperation with other organizations and within the limits of its means, in actions to promote peace.

4. The Olympic Movement, led by the IOC, stems from modern Olympism.

5. Under the supreme Authority of the IOC, the Olympic Movement encompasses organizations, athletes and other persons who agree to be guided by the Olympic Charter. The criterion for belonging to the Olympic Movement is recognition by the IOC. The organization and management of sport must be controlled by the independent sport organizations recognized as such.

6. The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

7. The activity of the Olympic movement, symbolized by five interlaced rings, is universal and permanent. It covers the five continents. It reaches its peak with the bringing together of athletes of the world at the great sports festival, the Olympic Games.

8. The practice of sport is a human right. Every individual must have the possibility of practising sport in accordance with his or her needs.

9. The Olympic Charter is the codification of the Fundamental Principles, Rules and Bye-laws adopted by the IOC. It governs the organization and operation of the Olympic Movement and stipulates the conditions for the celebration of the Olympic Games.





Olympic spirit raped and its principles ignored? Guess we had the same discussion for the 1980 games in the USSR and 1936 in Berlin... Does anything really change ever?



[ed]This has been the OP so far. I would like to update the OP, as it is hard to follow the entire discussion:



- Chinas bid to become host to the Olympic games has been granted as they initially promised to work on their human rights record. This "work" unfortunately has not produced significant results



-- Acc. to Olympic watch, 7 Human rights organizations urge IOC president Rogge to speak out to China about human rights abuses



-- Human Rights Watch Organization on Chinese human rights violations



I do side OWD when he states that the position of China needs to be taken into consideration if a bilateral discussion is to take place.



Hence I can't find China to be open to any kind of discussion on their politics. Just recently the Chinese PM has ruled out the Chinese government to resume talks on the status of Tibet with the Dalai Llama until he denounces the Tibetan struggle for independence. I mean there is not much left to talk about but the weather, IF he does.



Just very recently China has revived it's claim on 90.000 sqkms of Indian territory



 Written by : globalsecurity.org

The Indian frontier state of Arunachal Pradesh Tuesday reacted strongly to China's claims of the region being a "disputed area", officials told IRNA Tuesday.



China's envoy to New Delhi, Sun Yuxi, Friday raked up a controversy ahead of the landmark visit by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao saying the northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh was still "a disputed area" between India and China.



"China's claims and the statement made by its ambassador to India are erroneous to say the least.



There is no dispute whatsoever and Arunachal Pradesh is very much an integral part of India," Arunachal Pradesh Home Minister Jarbom Gamlin said.



Beijing in 2003 gave up its territorial claim over the Indian state of Sikkim but was still holding on to its age-old stand that a vast stretch of Arunachal Pradesh belongs to China.



"We have lodged a formal protest with the Indian Foreign Ministry over the Chinese ambassador's statement," Gamlin said.



"The people of Arunachal Pradesh do whatever is required to protect and preserve its territorial integrity."

The mountainous state of Arunachal Pradesh shares a 1,030-km (650-mile) unfenced border with China.



The China-India border along Arunachal Pradesh is separated by the McMahon Line, an imaginary border which is now known as the Line of Actual Control (LAC).



India and China fought a bitter border war in 1962, with Chinese troops advancing deep into Arunachal Pradesh and inflicting heavy casualties on federal troops.



The border dispute with China was inherited by India from British colonial rulers, who hosted a 1914 conference with the Tibetan and Chinese governments that set the border in what is now Arunachal Pradesh.



China has never recognized the 1914 boundary, known as the McMahon Line, and claims 90,000 square kilometers (34,750 square miles) -- nearly all -- of Arunachal Pradesh.



India also accuses China of occupying 8,000 square kilometers (14,670 square miles) in Kashmir.





Personally it appears as if China is never satisfied with what it got.



It still claims Taiwan to be part of the mainland, even though it's people greatly oppose this notion. They do live in constant fear of Chinese aggression. How useful is a claim on territory, if the people living there are completely opposing it?



China says that it "liberated" the Tibetan peasants, but who gave China the right to just stay there? If the intent was to "liberate", IMO it should not have send Chinese there to settle.



Some claim that the fate of Tibetans prior to the Chinese occupation has been very similar to those of "slaves" (I will post a link to the article as soon as I got it) - but even IF this would be the case, this doesn't mean that they will slip back into slavery, once independence is granted.



IMO Tibetans have the right to govern themselves. They seem to be greatly unhappy with Chinese rule and occupation, talks about autonomy and independence should be resumed.



China has got a very bad human rights record and there is a great number of Chinese living outside of their country because they are facing severe oppression in their motherland.



--- Only the current attention drawn back to the policies of the Chinese government seem to justify the decision to hold Olympics there.



Personally I just find it extremely unfair that these politics are carried out on the backs of athletes who train a long time to compete for the Games and now find themselves in a great conflict between ambition and ethics...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208698867)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Dragon_Drafin
member

Member Since: 13th Mar 2008
Total posts: 51
Posted:They Olympics are no longer about peace love and understanding (or was that the 60's?) they are about greater commercial advertisement and gains. People just need to learn to accept that. Once the mega corps. get their meat hooks into something they don't let it go.

Every country is guilty of that .


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Personally, I think it's time that we stopped the Olympics. It's no longer about great amateur athletes. When 14-year-olds start to be tortured into great athletes, when doping become more important than training, when the speed of a pool becomes more important than the speed of the swimmer...the games are over.

I no longer watch the Olympics or pay them any attention at all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I still enjoy them. We usually have a few top athletes from WI

Gymnastics seems to be a good sport and the winter sports too


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:As a former aspirer: the Olympics are still worth it.

Yes, sports like gymnastics have young athletes, but it's better than what it used to be.

But I don't think boycotts have ever been effective so not worth doing.

However at the same time, I never supported China hosting the games for the reasons people now want to boycott them.
I think it's rather frustrating because china were getting the games on the grounds that they'd fix up their act. And really, was anyone stupid enough to believe that they would? Course not!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well, Rouge that's the results if you provide the award in advance.

Me thinks that the Olympics were given to China for other reasons.

Like D_D put it: "they are about greater commercial advertisement and gains". Which is why I personally boycott watching them.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Well, Rouge that's the results if you provide the award in advance.




Exactly. Stupid censored gullible idiots!!!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:spank

Right now Taiwan is considering to boycott the games and the German NOC asks the IOC to allow political protest of individual athletes...

Maybe in this case I would watch the Games... but me thinks its another PR gag... beware...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Its a good point Fire Tom. I agree the Olympics were given to China for other reasons. I thought about boycotting the Olympic games, but then I remembered the US led invasion of Iraq. I suspect no one would boycott a coalition of the willing country, so Id just be hypocrite. Then again ?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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GeoffonTour04
enthusiast
Location: Oxford
Member Since: 30th Nov 2005
Total posts: 360
Posted:I don't know really, on one hand by watching the games/ China hosting the games could be seen as supporting the human rights abuses, but I think it's done more to highlight than encourage them.

China has been thrust into the spotlight, and will be certainly more in the public eye (even after the games) than it has been up until this point. This means more people are taking note of the problems there, which slowly (very slowly) feeds up the chain into political pressure to do something about it.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Geoff, I hear you - but do you think that there really is anyone on this planet who'd (be able to watch Olympia and still) not know about the human rights abuses?

Dunno really whether Olympia in Bejing is supporting these abuses, but certainly its ignoring them.

Also its a bit of a slap in the face of the dissidents, who are risking their freedom to criticise the regime and might discourage others from picking up protests - thus said, we can clearly see at the behaviour of China in Tibet that they (still) have no issues with cracking down on protesters...

Placing Olympic Games right in the centre of a totalitarian regime... instead of supporting Chinese democracy (like Games in Taiwan) they are supporting China.

I'm certain that China will not receive 'enough' political pressure from the outside "ever" to make any adjustments in its policies....

Stone, boycotting the games (as in "not watching") is a personal decision. Maybe it won't change much, at least I'd not be any part of it either.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted: Written by : Yellfire

FireTom, do you think it will be 'fair' for the UK to host the Olympics in 2012, given its active participation in an illegal war in Iraq and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians?

Do you think it was fair for Australia to host the Olympics in 2000, given the extreme poverty that most of its aboriginal population lives in, while the white population enjoys one of the highest living standards in the world?

Was it fair for the US to host the Olympics in 1996, given its long history of waging illegal wars in other parts of the world, use of nuclear weapons in Japan and chemical weapons in Vietnam, unconditional support for dictators in the Middle East and Latin America, attempted assassinations of sovereign leaders with alternative viewpoints, etc.?

Will it be fair for the US to host the Olympics in the future, considering that they have kidnapped hundreds of people from around the world and are holding them in appalling conditions at Guantanamo Bay without trial?

Less hypocrisy please!



 Written by : Hamamelis

Hm, while I do have pretty serious questions about several of the policies you're referring to, all of them are at least more complicated- I'm not implying justifiable just that I can see most of them have another side.

The Australian situation is largely inherited, and I certainly can't say exactly what they 'should do to solve it', likewise the Iraq war is a mess, and I did take part in protests against our involvement. but I don't believe there is a real intent to conquer Iraq, it was more a case of the UK (and the US, and Australia) inappropriately picking sides in an already bad situation, even if that situation was partly created by us-comparing that to annexing an un-war-like neighbour is pretty unequal.

I also have to admit here- I'm not really fussed about the Olympics, due in part to not having a TV, so I never watch anyway, and whenever anyone talks about the 'true spirit of the Olympics', the automatic thought is they want women out, and the guys to take part in the nude.. which should at least make the Winter Olympics more interesting.



 Written by : Rouge Dragon

I think it's unfair to say that because the US bombed Japan 50 years ago, then they shouldn't have hosted the Olympics.

China is *currently* abusing human rights.

If you want to dig up history, no-one would *ever* host the Olympics. You need to look at now and to the future.

And I like Hama's point about the "true spirit of the Olympics".



 Written by : Yellfire


Rouge Dragon, that's kind of what I'm saying, instead of being hypocrites, if we uniformly apply the standards we are trying to apply to China, nobody would ever host the Olympics. The US may have bombed Japan 50 years ago but innocent people are having their human rights violated in Iraq and Guantanamo at this very point in time, i.e. *currently*. In fact most people would consider the situations in these places a lot worse than Tibet.

Hamamelis, I agree that the Australian situation is complicated, but I have no idea what you mean by the US and UK 'inappropriately picking sides'!? They invaded a country, which resulted in thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands dying, I think people generally agree on that.

I was not saying that nobody should host the Olympics, simply that most countries that host the Olympics are equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses. So lets not be hypocritical and single out China.



 Written by ; Lurch

The Olympics should be about the sports, and the athletes, coming together and and least temporarily overcoming any sort of spiritual, religious or political factors.

They held the summer games in Berlin in 1936, you can't tell me this is worse than that. Condemn China's policies, by all means speak up against them, but don't condemn the Olympics, they have *nothing* to do with it. I think all the protesters who've been attacking the flame are extremely distasteful.. but that's just my opinion.



 Written by : Rouge

I don't think that they *are* condemning the Olympics. They're condemning China. It's just that because China are hosting the Olympics it's overlapped.



 Written by : Roarfire

 Written by : Lurch


I think all the protesters who've been attacking the flame are extremely distasteful.. but that's just my opinion.



I totally agree



 Written by : fNI

*completely* agree with what lurch wrote

in ancient Greece, wars used to be put on hold during the Olympics, it was a time for the Greek world to come together in a celebration of athletics and competition



 Written by : Hamamelis

If anyone could get the planet to put all the wars on hold for the duration of the Olympics, that would change my attitiude to 'em a bit..

Personally, as I don't take the Olympics very seriously, I can't honestly object to China hosting them- but I don't have any objection to anyone using that fact as an opportunity for protest either- and I know there's a lot of pyros around here, and I am putting this deliberately childishly..but I really can't understand why people seem to think it's a worse offence to try and publicly put out a burning stick than to invade a country...?

And I never did get the 'calling time out' on wars thing either. Reminds me of an 'Asterix and Obelix' book, where the romans invade Britain, and the british insist on stopping the fight at 5pm every day for a nice hot drink..



 Written by : Stone

I think it really depends on whether people are prepared to put self-gratification and entertainment, ahead of human rights.

The goal of Olympism is to place sport at the service of the harmonious development of man, with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity (olympic.org).

There was much debate over whether China, with a poor human rights record, should stage the Olympics. The Chinese authorities insisted that the games would lead to improvements in the human rights situation. Clearly this has not happened, and China has reneged on that agreement.

Boycotting Olympics is not new. The 1956 Melbourne Olympics were the first Olympics that were boycotted by the Netherlands, Spain, and Switzerland, because of the repression of the Hungarian Uprising by the Soviet Union; additionally, Cambodia, Egypt, Iraq, and Lebanon, boycotted the games due to the Suez Crisis. The People's Republic of China withdrew from Melbourne Games in protest of continuing recognition of separate NOC in Taiwan. (Wiki).



 Written by : Rouge

yes yes yes!

China was given the reward *before* the good behaviour. So now they have the reward, why do they need to show the good behaviour? It was stupid to award China the Olympics, thinking they'd actually improve things. Not that it excuses China for abuses of human rights though.



 Written by : Yelfire

Rouge Dragon, once again, why are you singling out China for human rights abuses but ignoring abuses by western nations? Why does China need to be given a 'reward for good behavior', but countries such as the US and UK by default have a right to host the Olympics, despite dismal human rights records? I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?



 Written by : Rouge

That's no less that suggesting that I'm racist.

You will get no more discussion out of me for that.



 Written by :onewheeldave


 Written by :Yell fire!


Rouge Dragon, once again, why are you singling out China for human rights abuses but ignoring abuses by western nations? Why does China need to be given a 'reward for good behavior', but countries such as the US and UK by default have a right to host the Olympics, despite dismal human rights records? I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?



It's a good point, the US/UK record in the middle east is no better than Chinas in Tibet- and, to the extent that US/UK govts can 'justify' that record, equally the Chinese can do the same with Tibet.

I think that, from the perspective of the protesting Tibetans, they're just doing what is necessary to make their point, protect their culture, human rights and relatives- using the opportunity of the Olympics to attract the eyes of the world, at which, they are being very successful.

Just because the US/UK violate human rights, shouldn't detract from the Tibetans (and, by extension, their supporters, including westeners) efforts to protect theirs- after all, maybe if their efforts produce results, then, when it comes to the US or UK's next hosting of the olympics, there could be protests against their record.

But, overall, your quote-

 Written by :Yell fire!


I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?



is, IMO, something to think about, because, if the US/UK are as guilty of human rights abuses as the Chinese, then, what could the difference be, other than race/political system?

It's a valid question.

What i've found from reading some of the views of Chinese people on various boards, is that their justifications of what's happened in Tibet, are disturbingly similar to those of our politicians supporting what's been done in the Middle East (eg- it's 'beneficial to them')



 Written by : BurdaA

I enjoy slating the UKs human rights record as much as the next social malcontent, but comparing the two situations (Iraq & Tibet) IMO draws from the fundamental importance of both. Surely no-one is suggesting that genocide is acceptable, be it eastern or western.

I also feel that a who are we to say anything, were just as bad attitude probably contributes to why these kinds of atrocities are allowed to prevail. Both at home and abroad.

Written by :Yell fire!


I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?


Ummmm.. rhetorical?no. Nor do I condone the UK/USs occupation of Iraq or Guantanamo's apparent Geneva loophole.

As for the Olympics, Ive never really had enough interest to suppose one way or the other. In a way it shall be boycotted by me, in the same way all the previous have. Sorry, but athletics all strikes me as being a little boring. Although if I were to form an opinion, I would suggest that linking sport with human rights violations probably diminishes the worth of both.

IMHO



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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yellfire, I can't quite follow your logic. I would oppose the UK, US, Australia or any other country to host the Olympics, whilst the engage in human rights abuses and 'illegal wars' (btw could you please point out a 'legal war'?). I can't find any hypocrisy in my stance towards the 2008 Olympics.

I follow Hamamaelis' opinion, when she says that "the Iraq war is a mess (...) but I don't believe there is a real intent to conquer Iraq..." and Rouge when she points out that "it's unfair to say that because the US bombed Japan 50 years ago, then they shouldn't have hosted the Olympics."

Fact is that: "China is *currently* abusing human rights."

I can't quite subscribe your stance that

 Written by : Yellfire


(...)if we uniformly apply the standards we are trying to apply to China, nobody would ever host the Olympics.



As Rouge pointed out: Human rights are currenty abused in China. For that reason IMHO they should not be host to the Olympics. As I pointed out in the IP, the problem occurred with the games in Berlin and Moscow already.

 Written by : Yellfire

The US may have bombed Japan 50 years agobut innocent people are having their human rights violated in Iraq and Guantanamo at this very point in time, i.e. *currently*. In fact most people would consider the situations in these places a lot worse than Tibet.



Well fact of the matter is that neither the US, nor the UK or any other but China IS presently host. "One playground at a time"... wink

 Written by : Yellfire

I was not saying that nobody should host the Olympics, simply that most countries that host the Olympics are equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses. So lets not be hypocritical and single out China.



Two wrongs don't make a right. At least not to me.

And nobody is singling out China. I feel the need to be specific here: I'm not opposing China or the Chinese in general. I'm opposing an oppressive totalitarian regime under which even the Chinese themselves have to suffer.

 Written by : Lurch

The Olympics should be about the sports, and the athletes, coming together and and least temporarily overcoming any sort of spiritual, religious or political factors.

They held the summer games in Berlin in 1936, you can't tell me this is worse than that. Condemn China's policies, by all means speak up against them, but don't condemn the Olympics, they have *nothing* to do with it. I think all the protesters who've been attacking the flame are extremely distasteful.. but that's just my opinion.



This is what I'm saying, Lurch. But only because mistakes have been made in the past, we don't need to repeat them.

Again I feel the need to be specific:

I'm not opposing the Olympics in general. I'm opposing the IOC's decision to have China host the Olympics on grounds of a mere promise to work on the human rights abuses committed by this regime. IMO the Olympics should not take place, i.e. (as currently start happening) political leaders should boycott the opening ceremonies and the decision of athletes to boycott the torch relay or the games altogether should be respected.

 Written by : fNI


in ancient Greece, wars used to be put on hold during the Olympics, it was a time for the Greek world to come together in a celebration of athletics and competition



That's exactly the point... but this "lay down of arms and quarrels" should definitely involve the Chinese government, no?

 Written by : Stone

I think it really depends on whether people are prepared to put self-gratification and entertainment, ahead of human rights.



Side that.

 Written by : Yelfire

Rouge Dragon, once again, why are you singling out China for human rights abuses but ignoring abuses by western nations? Why does China need to be given a 'reward for good behavior', but countries such as the US and UK by default have a right to host the Olympics, despite dismal human rights records? I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?



This is not about "singling out China" but to avoid repetition of another 1936-desaster.


 Written by :onewheeldave

It's a good point, the US/UK record in the middle east is no better than Chinas in Tibet- and, to the extent that US/UK govts can 'justify' that record, equally the Chinese can do the same with Tibet.



What exactly are you basing your informations on, Dave? Yet even if it were we should not accept that the standards get lowered that much.

 Written by : OWD

I think that, from the perspective of the protesting Tibetans, they're just doing what is necessary to make their point, protect their culture, human rights and relatives- using the opportunity of the Olympics to attract the eyes of the world, at which, they are being very successful.



Which is exactly why I feel that it is necessary to support the Tibetan protests.

 Written by : OWD

(..)after all, maybe if their efforts produce results, then, when it comes to the US or UK's next hosting of the olympics, there could be protests against their record.(...)



I definitely hope that protesters will raise their voice even if the current Tibetan struggle is not leading anywhere.

 Written by :Yell fire!


I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?



Personally I didn't support the Iraq war - and I'm all for refraining from building up dictators like Saddam in the first place. Which is why I am avoiding Chinese products as much as I possibly can. Fact of the matter again is that *now* the Iraqis are caught up between a rock and a hard place. I feel that "the West" can't just withdraw their troops and leave them to kill each other (which they most likely will).

So: NO, I wouldn't feel different.

 Written by : BurdaA

I enjoy slating the UKs human rights record as much as the next social malcontent, but comparing the two situations (Iraq & Tibet) IMO draws from the fundamental importance of both. Surely no-one is suggesting that genocide is acceptable, be it eastern or western.

I also feel that a who are we to say anything, were just as bad attitude probably contributes to why these kinds of atrocities are allowed to prevail. Both at home and abroad.




Fully side that clap


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onewheeldave
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Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
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Posted: Written by :Doc Lightning


Personally, I think it's time that we stopped the Olympics. It's no longer about great amateur athletes. When 14-year-olds start to be tortured into great athletes, when doping become more important than training, when the speed of a pool becomes more important than the speed of the swimmer...the games are over.

I no longer watch the Olympics or pay them any attention at all.



I think that's the first thing you've ever posted on here, that I agree with smile


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Yell fire!
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Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Personally I didn't support the Iraq war - and I'm all for refraining from building up dictators like Saddam in the first place. Which is why I am avoiding Chinese products as much as I possibly can. Fact of the matter again is that *now* the Iraqis are caught up between a rock and a hard place. I feel that "the West" can't just withdraw their troops and leave them to kill each other (which they most likely will).

So: NO, I wouldn't feel different.




That makes a lot of sense! Show your disapproval for the Iraq war by avoiding Chinese products! biggrin


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Yell fire!
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Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted: Written by :FireTom


Personally I didn't support the Iraq war - and I'm all for refraining from building up dictators like Saddam in the first place. Which is why I am avoiding Chinese products as much as I possibly can. Fact of the matter again is that *now* the Iraqis are caught up between a rock and a hard place. I feel that "the West" can't just withdraw their troops and leave them to kill each other (which they most likely will).

So: NO, I wouldn't feel different.




Fact of the matter is, Olympics or no Olympics you are avoiding Chinese products but are not avoiding American products, despite the fact that the US is responsible for so many more deaths in recent years than China is. On many occassions in your posts you almost try to justify the Iraq invasion, saying there was never an intent to conquer Iraq (???), or that the occupation may have been a bad idea but oh well, what can we do now?

Which brings me back to the same question: Is it because the US and UK are white, Christian and capitalist countries that their crimes against humanity are not condemned with as much passion on this predominantly white, Christian, capitalist forum as those of a racially, culturally and politically different nation?


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:um - on this board the UK and the US receive a lot more condemnation than china does.....

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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_Poiboy_
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bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:yell fire, while i agree that the US shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, if they were to withdraw right now that would just leave the local militias fighting for control in the area, probably killing thousands in the process.



The same thing happened when Israel did the one sided disengagement from the Gaza strip, leading to Fatah and Hamas fighting over control, which ended with 200 or so people being killed and over a 1000 injured. While the disengagement was a good idea, it would've been better done if Israel had asked the Fatah and the Hamas for a ceasefire before withdrawing.



(sorry for any inaccuracies in my post regarding the Fatah-Hamas conflict, I wrote mostly from memory.)


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Poiboy



yell fire, while i agree that the US shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, if they were to withdraw right now that would just leave the local militias fighting for control in the area, probably killing thousands in the process.









Don't you think the Chinese can use very similar justifications for their stance on Tibet?



i.e. that the resident Chinese who've made their home in Tibet for many decades would be at risk from violence from activist Tibetans.



Especially as the Chinese media have been pushing the fact that the cuurent Tibetan protests have involved violence.



In your case, probably not- but, what I'm trying to get across is the Chinese perspective and, when you listen to that perspective, you hear very similar justifications to those used by western govts to justify their occupations.



To their credit (as far as I know), the chinese haven't used the western tactic of labelling the pro-tibetan activists as 'terrorists' and using that as justification form throwing aside human rights entirely.



(Not that I support what the Chinese have done with Tibet, i just feel that, for useful dialogue between China and the West, that it's vital to understand why it is that the Chinese feel justified).


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by :Yell fire!

Fact of the matter is, Olympics or no Olympics you are avoiding Chinese products but are not avoiding American products





Who tells you that I am in any way supporting the US policies? At some stage I was even accused of being anti-american (which in fact I am not). I am neither approving of the Chinese nor of the US government in their policies. They both act totalitarian.



 Written by : YF

despite the fact that the US is responsible for so many more deaths in recent years than China is.





umm I am lacking sufficient, independent informations to subscribe to that statement. At least - to my knowledge - the US is - for example - not tolerating an industrial centre in which more than 40 labourers are loosing a limb every day without any compensation (like China does in Shenzen) at least the US is not surpressing informations in the same extent as China does and allow democratic elections (well, I admit that this can be objected). wink



Further is the Chinese regime putting millions of their own people into a diaspora, by that it is hostile to their own people.



 Written by : YF

On many occassions in your posts you almost try to justify the Iraq invasion, saying there was never an intent to conquer Iraq (???)





No, I have only once sided that statement and I still do. There is no intent to occupy Iraqi territory and to put the Iraqi ppl under US/ UK reign.



 Written by : YF

or that the occupation may have been a bad idea but oh well, what can we do now?





That's not what I've been saying. I said: one playground at a time. Feel free to start or revive a thread about Iraq and I might discuss it. You're diverting attention of the current problem in Bejing, weighing or equalizing two wrongs to make them right.



As I have stated in the other thread before:



- Tibetan ppl have a right to govern themselves,

- Tibet is NOT a Chinese province.

- Tibetans have a right for an international probe into human rights abuses in Tibet, committed by the Chinese government.



IMO the Chinese government is violating human rights in both: Tibet AND China. And that on a large scale. Unlike the US there is only very little information seeping out of China, therefore we might not even have an accurate picture of how much atrocities are getting committed by the Chinese government against their own people.



 Written by : YF

Which brings me back to the same question: Is it because the US and UK are white, Christian and capitalist countries that their crimes against humanity are not condemned with as much passion on this predominantly white, Christian, capitalist forum as those of a racially, culturally and politically different nation?





I might be white, but I'm not Christian and I am not living in a predominantly white and Christian country - not even remotely. I can't expect you to follow all my topics and posts, but in case you would - have noticed that neither race, nor faith is keeping me from compassionately criticizing injustice.



The problem with China doesn't end in Tibet, maybe not even Darfour. At the same time the problem with the US doesn't end in Iraq or their war on terrorism. I have made that very clear.



No need to shoot the messenger.



My question: Why are you so passionately defending chinese human rights violations by pointing out that other countries don't have a white record either?



Two wrongs do make a right? We don't need to lower our standards that far?



 Written by : OWD

 Written by : poiboy



yell fire, while i agree that the US shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, if they were to withdraw right now that would just leave the local militias fighting for control in the area, probably killing thousands in the process.





Don't you think the Chinese can use very similar justifications for their stance on Tibet?



i.e. that the resident Chinese who've made their home in Tibet for many decades would be at risk from violence from activist Tibetans.





OWD which "Western occupations" are you specifically referring to? Any which way - following your logic the illegal Israeli settlements in occupied territories would then be "legal"? I myself don't side that.



Hence: What legal claims (other than 49 years of illegal occupation) can China lay on Tibetan territory?



History has proven that the steady drop rubbles the mountain. Would it not be time for China to grant autonomy to Tibet or at least resume serious and genuine talks with the Dalai Llama? I mean not just cup-of-coffee-talks but serious negotiations



 Written by : OWD

To their credit (as far as I know), the chinese haven't used the western tactic of labelling the pro-tibetan activists as 'terrorists' and using that as justification form throwing aside human rights entirely.





What makes you think that?



 Written by : OWD

(Not that I support what the Chinese have done with Tibet, i just feel that, for useful dialogue between China and the West, that it's vital to understand why it is that the Chinese feel justified).





I side that - I just can't see any reasonable justification...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208518860)


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:as a former competitive athlete with Olympic aspirations...

I remember when the Olympics were about amateur competition, not professional athletes. And is it fair to athletes who have trained their entire lives when a boycott decided by politicians ruins their chances of competing? A lot of them have forgone an education in pursuit of perhaps one day making it.

It used to be a big deal when the Olympics were on, but now with so many professional world championships televised, they're considered obsolete.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:fNi: this at least is not what I'm suggesting.

I can understand any athlet who will go to the Olympics and participates. Four years can mean the end of an athletic career, so I would not boo any of them.

Hence I'd welcome political leaders to boycott the opening ceremony, I'd have the HIGHEST respect for athlets who boycot the games (under the reasons described above). It's my personal decision not to watch them and to join the peaceful protests of Tibetans at India Gate in Delhi tomorrow.

Yellfire: In addition to my above post.

Why are you yourself applying double standards when it comes to the illegal occupation of Tibetan territory by the Chinese regime? If the uprising would NOT be against a communist, totalitarian, asian regime but against a white anglo-saxon, christian, democratic, western occupational force - would you be first in line to speak out?


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:As far as athletes who have trained being disadvantaged by a games boycott goes.

I think athletes can compete under the Olympic flag. 65 countries boycotted these the Moscow Olympics to protest against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Australia paraded under the Olympic Flag in 1980.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Excuse the length of my previous post - as in regards to the athletes I reckon it's not fair to organize games which are so ill-fated from the start as those in China.



[ed]BTW - Yellfire, just to clarify: I'm avoiding Chinese products as NOT to make a contribution to an oppressive and totalitarian regime.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1208695087)


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pls sxcuse me for bouncing this back and forth but I reckon it has significance in both threads:

 Written by : Stone

China to meet Dalai Lama envoys: reports

Chinese officials will meet representatives of the Dalai Lama, a state-run Xinhua news agency has reported, citing official sources.


"It is hoped that through contact and consultation, the Dalai side will take credible moves to stop activities aimed at splitting China, stop plotting and inciting violence and stop disrupting and sabotaging the Beijing Olympic Games so as to create conditions for talks."

A spokesman for the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India, said he had not received any communication from China about a meeting.

However the spokesman said the Dalai Lama welcomed Beijing's offer as 'a step in the right direction'.

"Only face-to-face meetings can lead to a resolution of the Tibetan issue," he said.

"His holiness, since March 10 when the (anti-Chinese) protests started, he had been making all efforts to reach out to China and the Chinese Government and he hopes the Tibetan issue can be resolved only through dialogue."



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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I noticed a bulletin message (and possible spoiler) on the wall in McLeod Gunj (the winter residence of the Dalai Llama) from the Tibetan people to the athletes of the world:



I reckon I just put it out here, as it's on topic...



Not really comfi, but I guess it's close(r) to the truth than Chinese feel good propaganda.



A MESSAGE TO THE ATHLETES OF THE WORLD



Principles of the International Olympic Committee:



Respect for universal fundamental ethical principles

To contribute to build a peaceful and better world through sport

Encouraging a peaceful society with the preservation of human dignity.



AS YOU COMPETE "FOR THE GLORY OF SPORTS" AND THE "BETTERMENT OF MANKIND"

YOU SHOULD REMEMBER:



the gold in the medal you strive for was illegally mined in Tibet, where 1.2 Million Tibetans have died since the invasion and occupation by China. the silver in the medal you strive for was illegally mined in Tibet, where where China has destroyed 6.000 monasteries, representing thousands of years of Tibetan culture.

the metals in the bronze medal you strive for were illegally mined in Tibet where China continues its campaign of gross human rights violation, particularly Tibetan women. the timber in the hurdle you jump and in the batons you pass, is timber illegally felled in Tibet, where deforestation, by China, has reduced a pristine, fragile, unique environment to a desolate moonscape the world class medical treatment you receive for your sports injuries is made possible by advances in nuclear medicine and China's indisciminate dumping of nuclear and toxic waste in Tibet



As you compete with pride and hold your medals high, think of the once beautiful culture that has been subjected to over 49 YEARS of unimaginable atrocities, over 49 YEARS of imprisonment and torture and murder, over 49 YEARS of gross human rights abuses, over 49 YEARS of genocide.



THINK TIBET




At this time we're facing claims by the Tibetan community that Tibetan women get forcefully sterilized by the Chinese government, that the Tibetan council is to notify the Chinese government about any recognition of any new reincarnation of high Llamas or Buddha incarnations (as for example the Panchen Llama, who got abducted after recognition and whose fate is still not disclosed by the Chinese government) - as any of these nominations need the approval of the Chinese government... Further there are claims that members of the search team, who are looking for these reincarnations, got arrested and imprisoned by the Chinese government.



Only recently Nepal has issued an unconditional order to the Nepali forces to use deadly force against any protester that engages to climb Mount Everest to protest against the Olympic torch relay there.



The Nepali side of Mount Everest is off limits for any climber. The measure was implemented just after a US national got reported, caught with a "FREE TIBET" flag in his backpack and subsequently deported back to the US with the order not to return to Nepal for few years to come.



Personally I side the Tibetan struggle and call for each and everyone of you


to boycott the Olympic Games,
to encourage friends to boycott the Olympic Games
to encourage Athletes to boycott the Olympic Games
to encourage Chinese dissidents and
to engage in enlightenment of the Chinese population

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1211167563)


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Now not to make light of the situation over there.. But I really have to question the numbers. You know how it is FireTom, Cite your sources please!

1.2 million Tibetans over 49 years comes out to 24,489 deaths per year, divided by the population of Tibet (2.62 million as of the 2000 census) and that comes to a 0.93% mortality rate.

The US in comparison comes out to about 0.82% Thats not *that* much of a difference..

Now if it is 1.2 million deaths solely as direct result of the Chinese occupation thats different entirely.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm Maybe you take into account that Tibetans (traditionally) have no guns they can (accidentally) shoot each other with? wink Besides having less traffic and not remotely as many swimming pools?

Citing my sources? rolleyes

Just to give a good example wink

Inform yourself about Tibet and their struggle on freetibet.org

How many Tibetans have died as a direct result of Chinese occupation? acc to Stason.org

Tibetan Cetre for Human Rights and Democracy

And to be a little offtopic now:

According to a Times of India article, there have been as many as 87.000 riots in China against the regime in 2007 alone...

 Written by : ToI

In 2007, according to Chinese government figures, there were 87,000 "riots" in China.




So much about 'communism' in China - not all of them really happy I reckon... maybe all of them initiated by the Dalai Llama? Capable man he is... ubblol

And if you still don't know why to boycott the 2008 Olympics... Do it for Mrs. Wang wink


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Well maybe if they had some personal weapons they could help defend (at least a little bit) against an oppressive occupation tongue

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks, maybe if the Dalai Lama visits the US again, you can look him up and tell him your helpful suggestions personally wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Excuse my sloppy remark, Luch - but as you might have noticed the Tibetans use violence as their last resort and even if they would have had "civilian guns" they would have not stood a chance against the 'PLA' of China.

The fact that the Chinese regime is a very hungry and nasty one seems to remain commonly unnoticed in favour of cheap copied products.

Please note that this is not an Anti-Chinese campaign, even if I'm asking ppl to boycott Chinese products and the summer olympics.

This is only to raise awareness that the Chinese government is not only suppressing human rights in Tibet, but entire China has to suffer under its regime.

Supporting the summer Olympics in Bejing might show similar effects as the support back in 1936 for the Olympics in Berlin. I think its the wrong signal for the world.


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