Forums > Social Discussion > Unrest in Tibet - Dalai Llama to resign?

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I guess everybody has followed the 'recent news' (oxymoron) about the unrest in Tibet and the reaction of the Dalai Llama, better speaking his "threat" to step down as the 'Dalai Llama', if violent unrest continues in Tibet.

You reckon it's just a political bluff?

You reckon ppl will continue to worship him, even if he's not the 'Dalai Llama' but just an "ordinary man"?

You believe that there is "cultural genocide" committed by the Chinese in Tibet?

You think that sitting and meditating will lead to the "liberation" of Tibet at any stage?

I refrain from polling on this one but feel free to post your opinion.....


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:mmm while I think that Parenti has some interesting points, I still think his is an 'alternate' view. He's a guy that has made his way in life by peddling alternate / unpopular views (look at all his other books). Some of his arguments contradict each other - on the one hand he seems to suggest that western democracy is really economic colonialism, and on the other hand China's actions in Tibet represent Liberation? I think thats inconsistent.

I like his points, but I like them like I like most conspiracy theories - they are attractive because they make me question the foundations of my beliefs.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Now reading through all that you have posted, YellFire, certainly confuses me. It paints a very different picture on the culture of Tibet than the one promoted in the West.

Got to think more about this.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
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Posted:I've read some of his stuff as well, and I want to know why he is the only one? Makes me feel sceptical when it's just the one dissenting voice. Makes me doubt that it's the truth and think it's just someone trying to rub people up the wrong way. Like the political equivalent of an internet troll. Especially when one of his books is called "Contrary Notions".

I also saw a Penn and Teller thing where they interviewed him about the issue...and as I've said before I don't believe Penn and Teller so the sheer fact that he was on there makes me sceptical of him.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:YellFire: Well it turns out that Parenti is a marxist. I'm not surprised he supports China vs. the rest.

In his book "Blackshirts and Reds" he puts forth an estimation on the total victims of the Russian communist regime (from 1921 bis 1955), who got executed to 799.455. His source for this number is Prof. J. Arch Getty. In his book he describes that most GULAG-inmates were incarcerated due to non-political crimes, such as rape and murder.

This would greatly contradict the numbers other historians put forth, after which already one million German soldiers died in the GULAGs after WWII. Figures range as high as 35 Million casualties in the GULAGs. Please note that the number of casualties and the views on Parenti widely differ from the English to the German version of Wikipedia - which greatly contradicts itself:

 Written by : Wiki, English

It is estimated that there may have been up to 7 million prisoners in these camps at any one time. It is possible that approximately 10% of prisoners died each year.

In all, perhaps more than 18 million people passed through the Gulag from 1929-1953, with further millions being deported and exiled to remote areas of the Soviet Union.



.... 24 years x 700.000 casualties a year (to me) makes 16.800.000 casualties, but maybe I'm still confused.... as 1.8 million inmates in these 24 years and 'just' 10% of them dying would add up to 180.000 casualties only.

Not judging, only sharing a string of 30 minutes of research.

Is it possible to get other (less biased) sources on Tibetan culture and society pre-Chinese 'liberation' that back up his claims?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Rouge Dragon, he is certainly not the only one! Views that contradict the generic, accepted Western viewpoint that the public is comfortable with are not publicized by the media, this does not mean they do not exist or are not true! Parenti's article is of academic standard, ie, all the statements he makes are backed up by references, so in the very least there are about 50 historians / academics out there who support what he is saying. You are welcome to look up the references if you doubt their authenticity. That is a lot more than you can say about the 'facts' given on some dodgy freetibet.org website, or even stories from 'reputable' organizations that receive most of their funding from rabidly capitalist governments.

Issues like the Dalai Lama receiving large sums of money from the CIA have now been confirmed both by the CIA and the Dalai Lama, try doing a bit of research. I don't understand how you can continue to believe everything you are told despite the very recent example of the US and UK governments blatantly lying about WMD in Iraq.

Just because the Dalai Lama and his cronies are Buddhist does not automatically make them warm and fuzzy creatures, despite what Richard Gere would have you believe. Buddhists come in all shapes and sizes, just look at Thaksin Shinawatra, a staunch Buddhist who extra judicially murdered thousands during his war on drugs, until he was finally kicked out on corruption charges.

FireTom, Parenti may well be a Marxist, in your opinion is that a bad thing? Is it better to be a capitalist? I am aware of the contradicting estimates of the number of people who died in the Gulags, but again, it is not just Parenti who supports the alternative estimates. But that is a different topic.


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I can't claim any experience with the China/Tibet issue as I've only spent a few hours on it. I quite liked Parenti's piece and it's whole "underground" feel but I feel compelled to post this rebuttal in the name of balance.

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Thanks Stout, that was quite interesting. Written quite well, but I was not too impressed by the fact that while he ridicules Parenti's references, he does not give a single published reference to support his own version of old Tibet. So at the end of the day what he's saying is just his own unsubstantiated opinion, which for all we know may be just as biased as he's making Parenti out to be.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yell fire!..I agree, he was relying mostly on anecdotal evidence and his own personal experience. This is one of those issues where I really don't know who or what to believe.

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:YellFire: There is nothing wrong with being a Marxist - it's just the conclusion this draws. Whilst some capitalists are willing to hush up the negative impact of a 'free' market, some marxists are ready to do the same.

- Even if the history of Tibet - as described - would be according to Parenti's views and
- even if the invasion of China liberated the Tibetan ppl.

it does NOT justify Chinas claim on Tibetan territory. To support that would subsequently mean that now the US has got a legal claim on Iraqi territory.

- The Tibetan ppl have a right to govern themselves, Tibet is NOT a province of China.

- To grant autonomy to Tibet does NOT automatically reinstall a Llama-regime as painted out by Parenti.

Fact is that there is a significant number of Tibetans highly unhappy with the Chinese regime and IF China would favour the liberation of Tibetans - or act in their very own interest - it would at least support an opinion poll of Tibetans or/ and grant them autonomy.

No?


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:However, the question I had in mind was:

- In the face of violent unrests, the Dalai Llama threatened to resign and subsequently
- (Tibetan) Buddhism is dedicated to peace and renounces violence of valid means to pursue a (political) goal.

You think that he - as a Dalai Llama - needs to resign?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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hannahfaerie
hannahfaerie

playing in the mud but looking for the sparkle
Location: Adelaide Hills
Member Since: 5th Apr 2008
Total posts: 35
Posted:Hi all. I could be wrong, I only vaguely remember this but didn't the Dalai Llama step down back in 2004? And then the Chinese put some kid in his place? Like I said, I could be wrong....

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hannahfaerie
hannahfaerie

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Location: Adelaide Hills
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Total posts: 35
Posted:Maybe it was 2005....

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

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Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
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Posted:yes. you are wrong smile

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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roarfire
roarfire

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Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
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Posted:On a slightly different note, and without risk of sounding naive, I am concerned for the Olympics this year. There have been several breaches of security during the torch run already by Tibetan protesters and while I appreciate that they Tibetans are standing up for themselves and voicing overdue issues, I'm wondering what might happen in Beijing?



All I know is that I love the Olympics, and I don't want anything to spoil them this year!


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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hannahfaerie
hannahfaerie

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Location: Adelaide Hills
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Total posts: 35
Posted:Well I haven't found any proof but I have a feeling he stepped down as the Political leader of Tibet in 2005.

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newgabe
newgabe

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Posted:The Dalai Lama has not stepped down from anything. He is the head of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism and of the Tibetan Government in Exile. You are probably getting confused with the Panchen Lama.



Beijing anointed a boy, Gyaltsen Norbu to be the 11th Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama however recognised a young boy (Gedhun Choekyi Nyima) who was disappeared along with his family in 1995: his best chance is that he under house arrest somewhere. He could be in prison or dead.



Why China would bother is that the Panchen Lama traditionally identifies new reincarnations of the Dalai Lama. So controlling that is a chance for them to control who they say next Dalai Lama is.



The is also dispute about the identity of the new Karmapa. The Karmapa was the head of a very large school (sect or denomination)of Tibetan Buddhism...which did indeed have the wealth and power/support as Yellfire's sources were talking about (albeit in a very skewed way). That is quite a complex story. just google Karmapa and you will find a lot about it.



So far as the rest of the were-all-old-Tibetans saints chat. Of course they weren't. So what. Not all Brits of the second world war era were saints either. There were no doubt some very dodgy landlords. But it still would not have been OK for the Germans to have run them over in their ideologically inspired imperialist adventure, enslave and decimate them, move in millions of Germans so that Brits they were only a third of the population etc, raze most of the public building, destroy all but tokens of the culture, torture and imprison any dissenters, and then claim they had 'liberated the suffering masses'. Not picking on Germans, it's just a reasonable comparitor, seeing there had been 'connection' and 'recognition' royal intermarriage etc between those countries that could have been used to justify the 'liberation' of England like the Chinese justify their naked land /resources grab.



The Dalai Lama will not step down. But he is now 70 and has often said that it may not be helpful for the world for there to be another Dalai Lama; so he may be the last. With what has happened with the Panchen Lama and the Karmapa, for him to announce he intends to reincarnate might be more likely to create trouble than peace. *Therefore, no point to Dalai Lama.* That's they way he talks.


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hannahfaerie
hannahfaerie

playing in the mud but looking for the sparkle
Location: Adelaide Hills
Member Since: 5th Apr 2008
Total posts: 35
Posted:cool, it WAS only a vague memory.

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:offtopic The Olympics being hosted by the Chinese regime IMHO is 'unfair' to the olympic spirit, sorry for the spoiler shrug The torch will be crossing Tibet umm Simple, but usual provocation of the current Chinese government...



May- and hopefully it will backfire shrug



Hence the Dalai Llama hopefully won't resign and even if he would I guess the people (of Tibet) will keep loving him. As it's the man and not the function that counts wink

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1207976831)


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Yell fire!
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Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:FireTom, do you think it will be 'fair' for the UK to host the Olympics in 2012, given its active participation in an illegal war in Iraq and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians?

Do you think it was fair for Australia to host the Olympics in 2000, given the extreme poverty that most of its aboriginal population lives in, while the white population enjoys one of the highest living standards in the world?

Was it fair for the US to host the Olympics in 1996, given its long history of waging illegal wars in other parts of the world, use of nuclear weapons in Japan and chemical weapons in Vietnam, unconditional support for dictators in the Middle East and Latin America, attempted assassinations of sovereign leaders with alternative viewpoints, etc.?

Will it be fair for the US to host the Olympics in the future, considering that they have kidnapped hundreds of people from around the world and are holding them in appalling conditions at Guantanamo Bay without trial?

Less hypocrisy please!


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hamamelis
hamamelis

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Member Since: 5th Jan 2006
Total posts: 756
Posted:Hm, while I do have pretty serious questions about several of the policies you're referring to, all of them are at least more complicated- I'm not implying justifiable just that I can see most of them have another side.

The Australian situation is largely inherited, and I certainly can't say exactly what they 'should do to solve it', likewise the Iraq war is a mess, and I did take part in protests against our involvement. but I don't believe there is a real intent to conquer Iraq, it was more a case of the UK (and the US, and Australia) inappropriately picking sides in an already bad situation, even if that situation was partly created by us-comparing that to annexing an un-war-like neighbour is pretty unequal.

I also have to admit here- I'm not really fussed about the Olympics, due in part to not having a TV, so I never watch anyway, and whenever anyone talks about the 'true spirit of the Olympics', the automatic thought is they want women out, and the guys to take part in the nude.. which should at least make the Winter Olympics more interesting.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I think it's unfair to say that because the US bombed Japan 50 years ago, then they shouldn't have hosted the Olympics.

China is *currently* abusing human rights.

If you want to dig up history, no-one would *ever* host the Olympics. You need to look at now and to the future.

And I like Hama's point about the "true spirit of the Olympics".


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Yell fire!
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Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Rouge Dragon, that's kind of what I'm saying, instead of being hypocrites, if we uniformly apply the standards we are trying to apply to China, nobody would ever host the Olympics. The US may have bombed Japan 50 years ago but innocent people are having their human rights violated in Iraq and Guantanamo at this very point in time, i.e. *currently*. In fact most people would consider the situations in these places a lot worse than Tibet.



Hamamelis, I agree that the Australian situation is complicated, but I have no idea what you mean by the US and UK 'inappropriately picking sides'!? They invaded a country, which resulted in thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands dying, I think people generally agree on that.



I was not saying that nobody should host the Olympics, simply that most countries that host the Olympics are equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses. So lets not be hypocritical and single out China.

EDITED_BY: Yell fire! (1208038653)


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Lurch
Lurch

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Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
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Posted:The Olympics should be about the sports, and the athletes, coming together and and least temporarily overcoming any sort of spiritual, religious or political factors.

They held the summer games in Berlin in 1936, you can't tell me this is worse than that. Condemn China's policies, by all means speak up against them, but don't condemn the Olympics, they have *nothing* to do with it. I think all the protesters who've been attacking the flame are extremely distasteful.. but that's just my opinion.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I don't think that they *are* condemning the Olympics. They're condemning China. It's just that because China are hosting the Olympics it's overlapped.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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roarfire
roarfire

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Posted: Written by :Lurch


I think all the protesters who've been attacking the flame are extremely distasteful.. but that's just my opinion.



I totally agree


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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fNi
fNi

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Posted:*completely* agree with what lurch wrote

in ancient Greece, wars used to be put on hold during the Olympics, it was a time for the Greek world to come together in a celebration of athletics and competition


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hamamelis
hamamelis

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Posted:If anyone could get the planet to put all the wars on hold for the duration of the Olympics, that would change my attitiude to 'em a bit..

Personally, as I don't take the Olympics very seriously, I can't honestly object to China hosting them- but I don't have any objection to anyone using that fact as an opportunity for protest either- and I know there's a lot of pyros around here, and I am putting this deliberately childishly..but I really can't understand why people seem to think it's a worse offence to try and publicly put out a burning stick than to invade a country...?

And I never did get the 'calling time out' on wars thing either. Reminds me of an 'Asterix and Obelix' book, where the romans invade Britain, and the british insist on stopping the fight at 5pm every day for a nice hot drink..


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Stone
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Total posts: 2830
Posted:I think it really depends on whether people are prepared to put self-gratification and entertainment, ahead of human rights.

The goal of Olympism is to place sport at the service of the harmonious development of man, with a view to promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity (olympic.org).

There was much debate over whether China, with a poor human rights record, should stage the Olympics. The Chinese authorities insisted that the games would lead to improvements in the human rights situation. Clearly this has not happened, and China has reneged on that agreement.

Boycotting Olympics is not new. The 1956 Melbourne Olympics were the first Olympics that were boycotted by the Netherlands, Spain, and Switzerland, because of the repression of the Hungarian Uprising by the Soviet Union; additionally, Cambodia, Egypt, Iraq, and Lebanon, boycotted the games due to the Suez Crisis. The People's Republic of China withdrew from Melbourne Games in protest of continuing recognition of separate NOC in Taiwan. (Wiki).


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted: Written by :Stone


There was much debate over whether China, with a poor human rights record, should stage the Olympics. The Chinese authorities insisted that the games would lead to improvements in the human rights situation. Clearly this has not happened, and China has reneged on that agreement.




yes yes yes!

China was given the reward *before* the good behaviour. So now they have the reward, why do they need to show the good behaviour? It was stupid to award China the Olympics, thinking they'd actually improve things. Not that it excuses China for abuses of human rights though.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Yell fire!
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Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:Rouge Dragon, once again, why are you singling out China for human rights abuses but ignoring abuses by western nations? Why does China need to be given a 'reward for good behavior', but countries such as the US and UK by default have a right to host the Olympics, despite dismal human rights records? I guess my real question is, if the Chinese population was white, Christian and capitalist, would you feel differently?

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