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Forums > Social Discussion > would you willingly drink bleach? chemicals on your vegies

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:To begin, of course, the title of this thread is a rhetorical question, i dont believe anyone in their right mind would.



Since finishing highschool towards the end of last year, I began working in a large market garden, my job is to wash and pack various vegetables. Our clients include such major stores as Coles and Safewa (Woolworths), which, as all australians would know, are our two most major supermarket chains.



A day at my work, usually consists of standing at a converyor belt, and either putting vegies on it, or removing vegies from it, this belt passes through a machine, and the vegies are sprayed with water and such, in order to make them more presentable and create more appeal to our buyers.





I'd been doing this mind-numbing activity for a few weeks, when I realised that behind our most used washing machine, is a large bottle of chemical, with the labels 'oxidiser', 'corosive', 'poison' and 'biocide'.. with a tube leading into the machine.. on closer inspection, it turned out to be a chemical named 'Tsunami 100' with the active ingredient 'Peroxyacetic acid.'



As one would imagine, I decided to learn a little more about this chemical, just to make sure that I wasn't coming into any harm at work, and, as I learnt, this chemical breaks down into 'hydrogen peroxide,' more commonly known as bleach..



In adition to this, although the chemical isn't meant to be near the proportions presented in those links (at work it is meant to be 5ml every 100L) our machine has had a problem with the chemical regulator recently, and little to nothing has been done to remedy this, so there is much more than usual of this chemical being used than reccomended.



So, my question is thus: how do you feel, about the vegetables (and presumably fruit) being sold at your local supermarket, being (essentially) coated in the same chemical you would use to dye your hair, remove bloodstains or unclog a toilet?



cheers, pete hug kiss


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:mad2 how 'bout you tipping off the health department? umm

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:its a legal chemical to use, as far as ive learnt, and as far as i can tell, there is no legal max for the concentration of the chemical.. so i cant see any real legal point, i guess

just kinda crap though.. yet another reason for organics

hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Ever heard of Sodium Laureth Sulfate? Check your floor cleaning detergent, washing powder and .... toothpaste eek



Sometimes I wonder whether those in charge and knowledge do consume their own products... umm



To answer your initial (rethorical) question: not under 1.ooo.ooo $ (preferrably Pound Sterling) and suggesting you have a word with your supervisor/ manager/ owner on this (if you don't give a damn about your job that is)



Good luck mate hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1200911365)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:There is chlorine in the water that comes out of your taps. But the water wouldn't be safe without it. It cleans the water and makes it safe for consumption. My guess is that bleach in this context does a similar job.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Brenn
PLATINUM Member since Jun 2004

Brenn

Will carpal your tunnel in a minute.
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 3286
Posted:Yet another reason to wash your vegies smile

ॐ

Owner of burningoftheclavey smile
Owned by Lost83spy

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Ummm... Tom? What's the problem with there being a detergent in detergents? I'm not quite getting it...

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I think he's referring to it being in toothpaste as well. But I figure that's just one of the reasons why I was also taught as a child to not swallow toothpaste.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Lau_Shadow_Boxer
SILVER Member since Jan 2008

Lau_Shadow_Boxer

~ Cup Cakes and Faerie Lights ~
Location: Portsmouth, Uk / Kowloon, Hong...

Total posts: 110
Posted:Aye, wash veggies and fruit. I personally don't like the idea, but if its not going agasint legality then i doubt its a massive problem.

"They say it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile; thus smiling is for pansies" - The Short Gorilla

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast" - Ace Rimmer

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:question is what is the chemical being used to remove? It's mot much different from fruit being sprayed with wax to make it shiney and allow it to survive the transport process from Australia to the UK (4-6 weeks shipping) the stuff used on and in food is crazy mostly because we want international foods from our local store you'd be amazed how long it all sits on a ship or the docks in a container. and not all of it's refridgerated.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Another question could be....Do these chemicals actually leave a harmful residue. I know it sounds gross...chemicals!!! ick. but.

we have peracetic acid which is really just vinegar ( acetic acid, 5% aqueous solution ) with an extra oxygen molecule tacked onto it ( hence the per prefix ) combining with water to make hydrogen peroxide ( there's that per thing again ) which is really just water, with a bonus oxygen molecule.

So what happens to H2O2 when exposed to air ? Doesn't it just evaporate?

BTW, bleach as we commonly know it is actually sodium hypochlorite, not hydrogen peroxide which does leave a residue. Guess what you're effectively bathing in when you sit in a hot tub...yep, bleach.

There's far greater horror stories to look into if you're worried about whats in, and on your food than this one.

Just for fun, go a-googling and look up the ingredients in that chemical soup you're currently consuming in the form of a cup of tea. eewwwwww.

Rouge Dragon...you nailed it with the do not swallow label on toothpaste. Detergent is not kind to your stomach lining.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, hydrogen peroxide is also used in mouthwash to whiten teeth. It's quite safe, actually. Furthermore, when hydrogen peroxide is left exposed to air it degrades to water and oxygen gas.

See, it's this sort of misunderstanding of basic chemistry that leads to scaremongering. There have been a number of actions taken against chemicals that had no demonstrated harmful effect because they sounded like a chemical that had a danger or because they are used in dangerous substances. Water is the main component of hydrochloric acid, but that doesn't make water unsafe to consume.

So, Petey, I love you, but running around going "they're putting bleach on our food!" is spreading an innacuracy. While you include no untrue statements, you commit a major error of omission. Hydrogen peroxide, while known to bleach things, is quite safe for human consumption in low concentrations.

The sodium laureth sulfate story is another example of scaremongering. NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE EXISTS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT SLS IS UNSAFE FOR HUMAN USE.

Mind you that "credible evidence" never includes anecdotes. Individuals have blamed SLS for everything from miscarriages to fibromyalgia. That doesn't necessarily make it so.

I'm far more worried about the use of antibiotics in food animals than I am about the use of peroxide or SLS in everyday products.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Doc, you're right: "No credible evidence exists to demonstrate that SLS is unsafe for human use"

Would you agree on the stance that "SLS, in its pure form, is a skin irritant. But, no one suggests you put pure SLS on your skin hour after hour and leave it there. That's the way irritability tests are performed. Pure SLS is placed on the skin and left for hours. In that form it is deemed an irritant. However, in health and beauty formulations, SLS is highly diluted by the other ingredients and is usually rinsed off (in the case of shampoos or body washes) or rinsed out- (in the case of toothpastes), minimizing or eliminating the irritating effects. Only those with highly sensitive skin are adversely harmed by the levels of SLS in most products and these effects are usually just mild skin irritations (rash or dry skin)."

Pls tell me how some ppl are heavy smokers and live to be 90, whilst their non-smoking partners die from lung cancer?

 Written by: AHI

The benefits of using antibiotics to keep animals healthy outweigh the small risk of the products. One risk assessment showed that removing an antibiotic used to
treat sick chickens would cause more than 100 cases of food-borne illness in humans for each theoretical case of antibiotic resistant disease avoided.



shrug It simply is all about 'opinion' now, isn't it? I was going as far as to say: If there is anything worrying you, maybe it's your body sending signals to be cautious with said topic.

Our bodies are NOT same same, but different. One is susceptible to influenza whilst his brother is not.

 Written by: consumeraffairs.com 2005

The chance of developing a malignant brain tumor was roughly eight times higher for cell phone users in the Swedish countryside than in urban areas. The risk of developing any brain tumor was four times higher for country dwellers using mobile phones for five years or more, compared with those who did not use the devices.



Any health risk warning on cellphones by now?

 Written by: cancercommentary.com 2007

Previous study has already found no clear connection of cell phones (mobiles) to brain cancer.

Now, UKs largest investigation on the possible health risks from mobile telephone technology found nothing.

No biological or adverse health effects has been found connected with long term use of mobile phones. The investigations results was so sure they said there is no use of further investigate the issue.

According to Professor Lawrie Challis, Chairman of MTHR (Mobile Telecommunications and Health Research) :

This is a very substantial report from a large research programme. The work reported today has all been published in respected peer-reviewed scientific or medical journals.

The results are so far reassuring but there is still a need for more research, especially to check that no effects emerge from longer-term phone use from adults and from use by children.



ubbloco Choose to your liking... shrug

Now if a body is exposed to SLS (or bleach) to a certain degree (Birgit: yes I was referring to SLS in toothpaste - 1) who still regards foam = cleaning and therefore needs this stuff? 2) IM(non academic and very)HO the gums are more delicate than the outer skin of the body, therefore substances are more likely to affect your body when in contact with your soft tissue, rather than (for say) on your feet) her/ his body may get a problem with it, no?

Oh man, I'm really "back into SD" - want to make and print a flyer for the convention in two weeks... gotta run.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Antibiotics do not prevent food-borne disease. They may in the short run but in the long run they breed resistant food-borne disease. And that's ugly.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I'm not intending to wrestle with you, Mike wink And I'm not trying to challenge you on your professional POV, but how 'bout drinking a shot of 'bleach' every day? You reckon it would accumulate into a problem over times? Or how 'bout drinking a shot of bleach (heavily diluted that is) when the body already is struggling with a lot of other poisons already? Would it possibly create an uncomfortable reaction in the body?

You are saying that antibiotics in food animals breed resistant food-borne disease "in the long run"... if (proven) so, couldn't we sue the respective food industries for compensation in case?

No booby traps, however: IMO it's the culmination and dose of substances that make the poison. Therefore residue of bleach on my veggies is nothing I fancy, especially not if it's due to a broken machine and a scrooged shop owner.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:point well taken doc.. i do agree with completely with what you've said (especially the your 'i love you' point tongue ) but i nonetheless feel an element of concern that these chemicals are used, and that there is no guaruntee of them having degraded into other more safe chemicals.. however.. i didnt mean to sound so 'POISONOUS CHEMICALS!' ish.. if you know what i mean smile hug

i also feel i should point out that i havent studied chemistry or biology past a mid-high-school level, so what ive said, im more than happy to be commented/corrected on smile

hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:If you don't want the luxury of foam when brushing your teeth (you yourself say "who needs it?"), brush them with detergent-free toothpastes which are readily available. A little thought about why they're about 2-3 times the price of the SLS-containing ones, for LEAVING OUT an ingredient, might be appropriate, but far be it from me to suspect anyone of scaremongering gullible people of nasty chemicals to make money with an alternative product... ubbangel

On top of the foam, the American dentist association claims that detergents reduce bacteria living on the toothbrush, and by lowering the surface tension make it easier to remove stuff from teeth - so they're not completely useless. I found one study that found some side effects, but instead of recommending to not have detergents in toothpaste they recommend using milder ones.

Oh, and Stout, while I agree with everything else I'd like to challenge the "just an oxygen more" argumentation, after all my favourite cyanide is just a nitrogen more than harmless carbon... hug


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Therefore residue of bleach on my veggies is nothing I fancy, especially not if it's due to a broken machine and a scrooged shop owner.



I very much agree.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: FireTom



I'm not intending to wrestle with you, Mike wink And I'm not trying to challenge you on your professional POV, but how 'bout drinking a shot of 'bleach' every day? You reckon it would accumulate into a problem over times? Or how 'bout drinking a shot of bleach (heavily diluted that is) when the body already is struggling with a lot of other poisons already? Would it possibly create an uncomfortable reaction in the body?





Why are you talking about drinking a shot of bleach? I never brought up drinking a shot of bleach. confused



 Written by:



No booby traps, however: IMO it's the culmination and dose of substances that make the poison. Therefore residue of bleach on my veggies is nothing I fancy, especially not if it's due to a broken machine and a scrooged shop owner.





I'm still confused. The "residue" left by peroxyacetic acid is acetic acid (vinegar), water, and molecular oxygen. What "residue" were you concerned about? The vinegar?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:You should always wash your veggies and fruits before eating them.

SLS-free products are available as someone said, because some people are very allergic to it. But otherwise it relatively harmless. If no one put out that information, you would brush your teeth with SLS containing toothpaste your whole life and never have any side effects.

(This reminds my of the petition to ban dihydrogen oxide)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yeah, I love the dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO) campaign. Did you know that the MSDS for DHMO states that it lowers the seizure threshold in infants? (It's true! You shouldn't give an infant pure DHMO!)

Now, this is a great example of "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." You can run around saying "OMG! There's detergent in toothpaste!" Well, a detergent is a molecule that generally consists of a polar "head group" (usually a simple carboxylic acid group) and a non-polar hydrocarbon tail. The non-polar hydrocarbon tail imbeds itself in a piece of non-polar gunk (say, a lump of grease) and the polar end, which dissolves in water, sticks out and thus allows the chunk to be carried away with the water.

Properties of detergents vary greatly. They can be very harsh or very mild depending on a number of chemical factors.

The skin irritation is common to all detergents. This is because skin is protected by a layer of grease. If you wash skin with a detergent, the grease comes off and then the skin is considered dry. When you apply "moisturizing lotion" to skin, it's not the water that does the job, but the grease in the lotion. It replaces the grease that you washed off with soap.

If you have eczema, then anything that dries your skin by removing that oily layer, meaning ANY detergent, will make your eczema worse.

Detergents have other uses. Docusate sodium is a detergent marketed in the U.S. as COLACE and it is taken as a stool softener. It's quite safe and has been in use for decades.

I could spin the most harmless ingredient to make it sound awful, as the DHMO campaign did a few years back (although they had no malicious intent; they were clearly joking around). It's this sort of nonsense that sends people into a tizzy about this and that additive.

Read the MSDS on sodium chloride one day. After reading that, you wouldn't touch the stuff with a ten-foot pole. Except... you sprinkle it on your food every day.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Birgit...Well if you put it that way... You're completely right. When I wrote the comment about being one atom away, I was looking at the peracetic acid + water reaction and saw basically food and hydrogen peroxide.

As a general rule of thumb, the one atom away from something safe is a very very bad idea.

But with the word bleach...On this thread there seems to be some "confusion" as to what it actually is. As I said above, what we commonly refer to as bleach is sodium hypochlorite not hydrogen peroxide although H2O2 is used as a bleach, sometimes.

Out of curiosity I looked up the toxicity of bleach seeing as how none of my bottles of bleach have that skull and crossbones warning denoting a poison , and found that I'd probably puke before I got enough of this stuff in my system to cause me any real harm. There was nothing about the cumulative effects of orally ingesting bleach, so is it safe to assume that were I to drink a shot of this a day, I wouldn't have any serious side effects save a case of albino poo.

Another thing we have to keep in mind is the concentrations of these chemicals as we know them as household products. The hydrogen peroxide I have is the weak stuff, a 3% solution ( aka 10 volume ) and anything I can find on that says that I'd have to drink an awful lot of it in order to poison myself. But if we bring out the 35% solution, then it appears we have a different story. Even though, my bottle of 3% does have that skull and crossbones label.


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Posted:here is the Wikipedia on Hydrogen peroxide, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide \

it is NOT CHLORINE BLEACH(Clorox household bleach), i think that might be what many people are thinking when they see the word "bleach" it is however, a "bleaching" agent. Having worked in the operating rooms of hospitals i worked with some scary chemicals(Phenolic disinfectants, also known as phenols, are bacterial, fungicidal and tuberculocidal disinfectants effective against enveloped viruses. Theyre used where blood and body fluids are present, and destroy odor-causing bacteria on surfaces, but can be corrosive. Quat (quaternary ammonium chloride) disinfectants are used on bloodborne pathogens and are effective in destroying viruses and antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria(MERSA). Both are used in healthcare facilities), we (sterile team members)scrub our hands with scary stuff, i suggest that you ware gloves(when working with the chemicals)... wash your veggies, even the ones you peel.... and wash your hands with warm water and soap or detergent.... come on people use common sense. sorry if i sound harsh but.......would you complain that you came in contact with any of those chemicals in the hospital or doctors office? well if you touch anything in either setting (the exam table or the counters or the toilet seats) then you have.....

ok i'll shut up now


Be aware, the evil flowers may eat your toes....
Have no friends not equal to yourself...
Feed your mind, read a book

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:well once again mikes said everything i was going to say...

right. im off to neutralize my banana. lets see.... hyrdogen peroxide is a weak acid, so maybe a swift dunk in ammonia will do the trick!


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I side you, Mike... Whenever I spill Kerosene (before spinning off) and that environmentalists voice comes up in my head with raised index finger, I scream: "Whaddaya want? (a) it's a few drops only and (b) this stuff originates from nature." Same applies to me using the airplane for intercontinental travels, the use of my motorcycle, eating meat and other activities...

Dunno what anyone is concerned about, except for selective reading... and unfounded titling *shakes fist at PP*

wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mojojo
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

Mojojo

wandering dingo
Location: Aussie in London

Total posts: 167
Posted:Back in my cheffing days, in one particular job, the head chef was very particular about us re-washing the bought washed lettuce for this very reason... but then, you are just washing it in tap water, which is just more chemicals! (Albeit obviously safe for human consumption, but so - apparently - is the stuff its washed in before we buy it)

I am sure that the stuff it is being washed in is better than the stuff it that has been sprayed and poured all over it and the ground when it is growing (unless its all organic of course!)
eek

*wonders if the organic stuff in supermarkets is similarly washed in this fashion*

I like my spuds to come with the dirt still on em anyway.


Only three things are certain: Death, Taxes, and that England will not win back the Ashes in this lifetime.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The real reason you want to re-wash your washed veggies is because the processing plants recycle the wash water. All it takes is a teensy hole in a filter and all the nasty bacteria that were on the last batch of lettuce winds up on this batch.

There have been a number of food poisoning outbreaks and even a few E. coli O157:H7 infections caused by wash water recycling.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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AmaraO
SILVER Member since Jan 2008

AmaraO

Member
Location: South Of The Swan, West Oz.

Total posts: 67
Posted:In the states they actually recalled a batch of pre-packaged lettuce for that reason didn't they Doc?

I'm also on some food storage and survivalist lists and they had discussed it at length...

A friend of mines mum used to always wash her vegetables- she'd spray them with a bottle of vinegar, leave them for a few minutes and then wash them with fresh filtered water....people thought she was odd...


You also tilt when you should withdraw, and that is Knightly too. Rest In Peace, Heath.

Proudly Owned By FireTom.

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hamamelis
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

hamamelis

nut.
Location: Bouncing off the walls.

Total posts: 756
Posted:Having worked in a few fruit 'n veg packing sheds, I'd definitely suggest washing fruit and veg, even if it *is* labelled organic.. I did a few weeks work picking/packing organic blueberries, and I can definitely state they were *not* washed- with anything- before sale.
It might not be washed in bleach, that doesn't mean a bird hasn't pooped on it.. wink

On a side note- I always get a geeky laugh out of products labelled 'chemical free'.. I mean.. what are they, a vacuum?


THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I think it was spinach actually

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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