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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Location: brisbane, queensland, Australi...

Total posts: 55
Posted:not sure if this will be interesting to any/many of you, but from my short time here, it seems that at the very least, quite a few of you are up for a good spiritual debate, if nothing else. smile

just some background, first. i'll try to make it short.

my dad & i have a pretty close relationship. we don't agree on everything, but we talk very well & openly about most things. while i don't (these days) agree with his very black & white views on his deeply christian beliefs in god, he's pretty cluey about some spiritual matters. for example, he's a very good judge of character; he knows sometimes when things are going to happen; he gets strong feelings about things which are usually correct. about three times in my life i've felt extremely strong jabs of intuition telling me things about people as well. he has this sort of thing pretty often, i think.

his background is that he was heavily involved in the occult from quite a young age. he could see spirits & thought it was normal until he found out as a kid that not everyone sees them. he became involved with his father-in-law as a medium, he read people's minds, he used to be able to put thoughts into people's heads.

i don't have any doubt that all of what i've heard him tell about this is true. my dad is *the* most honest person i know. to a fault, in fact. he's the type that practically doesn't have a thought in his head that doesn't come out his mouth. he's not even good at little white lies .. such as telling women friends, "you're putting on weight!" lol! biggrin just as well they already know him well & that he's a good & honest man & that what you see if what you get with him, or he might get slapped fairly often.

in his early 20s he had a dramatic conversion to christianity while driving home from work one day. a 'bad' spirit started to choke him while he was driving. he became very frightened & called out "god!" (he's still not sure if it was asking for help or just using his name in vain) & then started having a vision of jesus & satan talking to him. after the vision, he was back in his car & had driven quite a distance through mountainous roads. there was quite a transformation for him, it seems, because as soon as he walked in the door, mum took one look at him & asked, "what happened?" since that time, he's been a very strong christian.

okay, enough background.

the other day, he called me to say hi & also to tell me that he had a very strong thought about me being in much danger. he said that it was odd to him because, in his words, "i never worry about you. you're very capable." (which was nice to hear. smile ) he said that he wasn't sure what sort of danger i might come across soon, but that it might be spiritual danger.

i took his words as he intended them, since i know him well & we are pretty similar in a lot of ways, so i thanked him for telling me & have been thinking about it once or twice a day since then.

now, the thing is, one man's spiritual danger might be another man's spiritual enlightenment. he believes that the only way to 'salvation' is through jesus christ. i used to be a church goer until i was in my early twenties. my (now ex-)husband was instrumental in me beginning to think for myself about spiritual & life matters when i was in my middle to late twenties. (yeah, i'm a late bloomer. lol!) i'm still not sure that i could define what i believe, but i guess i lean toward the belief that you create your own destiny. as for an afterlife, well, maybe there is one, maybe there isn't. maybe we get reincarnated.

so if my belief system is still changing & it's leaning more & more away from what my dad believes, then i'm thinking that in his mind, that could very well be interpreted as spiritual danger.

it's just me & my little boy (four years old) at home & even on the odd occasion that i get to go out with other adults without having to keep constant tabs on my little one, i don't really get to talk about this sort of stuff with others. i guess i'm just wanting to be able to discuss this with other adults who have an opinion on these sorts of matters.

so go for it. lol! biggrin


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

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Posted:From an agnostic's perspective:



Bad spirits could either be



- Real, and exist outside your body

or

- Not real, and exist as manifestations of underlying psychological fears

or

- Be a combination of the above (ie. you create your reality)



In any case, i think the general consensus is that the more you believe in bad spirits, the more power they have over you. I've found that if i ever get the feeling that i'm in some sort of spiritual danger, it helps to try to see things from an atheistic perspective, that is, not believe in bad spirits and reduce things to a psychological level. Often while delving into unusual ways of seeing the world (like, that you create your own destiny or reality), things can get a bit hazy and confusing and it's easy to lose touch. Not saying that it's a bad thing to delve into spiritual practices or beliefs etc, just that it's nice to have a fairly solid set of beliefs to return to if needed, like a bit of a ground zero... until you're ready to go exploring again.



As for your dad.. keep in mind that fear is a fairly standard way of keeping religion members in control and recruiting others. i'm not saying that this is what your dad is consciously doing, or that he's a controlling person, just that it may have something to do with it. On the flipside, some spiritual (non-christian) people do believe in bad spirits and spiritual danger, so you never really know. Probably best to stay away from spiritual practices that have a reputation for being destructive, like voodooism or seances, because... there are plenty of other spiritual practices to explore that don't have a reputation for being destructive.


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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Total posts: 55
Posted:it's definitely not a controlling thing on my dad's part. he's known for a long time that i don't go to church anymore. we've also had some good conversations about how mum tries to control me/us/everyone & dad's said to me that he knows i'll make my own decisions in the end, anyway. so no, not a controlling thing from dad. it's the first time ever he's told me anything like that.

i'm not into anything like voodoo or seances, either.

when i say that you create your own reality, i mean more in the sense that you plan & move toward what you want in life, thinking of what you *want* not what you *don't want*. you know, the law of attraction & all that. very *un*scary types of spiritual beliefs. lol! biggrin

after he told me about this possible danger to me, i consciously concentrated on feeling safe & happy, rather than worrying over it. as you said, 'i think the general consensus is that the more you believe in bad spirits, the more power they have over you,' so that's why i made a decision not to be looking around every corner waiting for something awful or scary to happen.

one good thing he mentioned was that it was only about me, not my little boy, smiley. so that was definitely one less thing to consciously not worry about. hehe.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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jarle
GOLD Member since Mar 2007

jarle

Lv15 Ranger
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 1489
Posted:I don't agree on the controlling thing, as that belongs into more of a cult than a religion - and Christianity (for the most part) is no longer a cult.

As for spiritual danger, it could mean a few things. Any imbalances, like spending too much time at work? What about any upsoming temptations? However, if you tell yourself that something bad is gonna happen, you'll see it round every corner. In other words, nice choice!

Aww, there was something else I wanted to say, which was either witty or profound. guess I'll go to sleep sad now frown


Kupo!

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Fire_Moose
SILVER Member since May 2007

Fire_Moose

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Posted:I agree with the fear thing. It seems like fear is really the core of most religions (fear of satan/hell/damnation/excommunication). I mean what do those guys on the street corner do? Tell you what you're doing wrong and what's going to happen.

Also, i am glad to hear you are not just out looking for what this may be.....ya know all that that's already been said. My guess is you will realize it before it's too late.




Or it's all a bunch of bull honkey smile


O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Alright, it seems we need to talk. A warning that this will be a little evangelical and dogmatic and many will not agree.

First, a little defense of my Christian faith. You do think for yourself. There should be constant inventory of you and your relationship with God, faith, and your church. Not doing so is lazy and these people are the ones that think Christianity thinks for you. And as for the fear aspect, that is not an issue so much for people who are about their faith. Certian denominations place more emphasis on not going to Hell but really when I think about sin I think about it more as making a choice that disappoints God. I think of Him like a parent. And I hate disappointing my family. So like that only more so. I look at it as getting to Heaven, not spending eternity in Hell flame smile It's a small difference but it seems to make a large difference in the Christians I meet, acting out of love and not fear. (And not fluffy warm and fuzzy love, parental I want the best for you love).

Second, spiritual warfare is real. I have fought a few small battles. And it's very cool that people like your father exist. Most of us are gut feeling people with maybe glimpse here and there. As is often said the devil's best trick is to make people think he doesn't exist smile

All that being said, just listen to your gut. Not your rational, logic voice. The one that is involved at your core, the soul's voice and be aware. I believe that there is an active battle between good and evil over the earth and for each soul.

(That's the religious/spiritualist viewpoint, that most people disregard as nutty)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:FiF, I think you're nutty cos you're too scared to post in my intro full of lovely cushions I set up for you! hehe

Ferrous,
I'm one of those people who think that most religions are essentially the same. Jesus is Jehovah is Allah is the trees is the water spirits is etc. Maybe your father "found Jesus" but the way I think of it is that he just found another way of believing in what he believed in as a kid. Possibly because as a kid he lacked a formal belief structure and an organised religion made sense to him? (I know I'm speculating but I'm almost an atheist so I get pretty blunt with religion, sorry about that!)
Yes, I think organised religion works on fear, but I think that given your dad's background then that's not what he is doing. I think that his spirits of the past still speak to him, he just gives them a different name.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

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Posted: Written by: ferrous



i'm not into anything like voodoo or seances, either.



when i say that you create your own reality, i mean more in the sense that you plan & move toward what you want in life, thinking of what you *want* not what you *don't want*. you know, the law of attraction & all that. very *un*scary types of spiritual beliefs. lol! biggrin







Hmm i guess the only "danger" with that is... being too hard on yourself if things don't turn out the way you visualised. Or to have unrealistic expectations. But yea, it's not really a big danger, specially if ur aware of it, also it's not a spiritual danger either. tbh i can't really see why ur dad is worried confused



Oh yea, i don't really know if this is relevent to u or not, but thought i'd mention it anyway. If ur a spiritual explorer, no doubt along the way you'll cross paths with a person or cult that will try to enforce their beliefs on you, using a variety of coercive persuasion or brainwashing techniques. Remember, anyone can be brainwashed, especially if they don't have any knowledge about brainwashing techniques, so don't assume you're immune. Check out this website, has a lot of information about mind control etc: http://new.factnet.org/mindcont.htm


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:In no way I am questioning the experience your dad had, whilst personally I might have drawn a different conclusion from them.

Which is what I suggest for you, too: draw your own conclusions and (unless you enjoy it) don't let anyone else be in command over your life - by no propagandistic means whatsoever (be it by force or persuasion, best intent or otherwise)...

One seems to have too little problems in life or a way too active mind to indulge in dark imaginings of evil spirits and the like (I'm not denying them either)... If life is confronting you with enough existential problems on a daily basis, or you restrain your mind by exercising meditation or exercising your body - much of the spiritual crap (as in the negative aspects of it) falls off by itself.

I agree on: the more you believe in them (bad spirits) the more power they get... but ignorance not necessarily solve the "problem" either...

The more you freak out on them (evil spirits) the more they influx on your life.

I learned three ways to deal with this:

1) Saying: You may be powerful spirits, but you are bodiless. By that you have no more power than what I give you. You would need me and my submission in order to act in the material world and I am not providing you with these tools. Bugger off and look for someone else

2) Saying: You have not been invited and you are taking considerable energy and time from me. I do need my energy and my time for my self. You have no right to be here and I ask you to leave. May you receive guidance to the light and accept this gift. Leave now and do not come back.

3) Eggshell meditation: Lie in bed very calm and relaxed (dimmed light, aetheric oils/ incense, chilled music) and imagine there is a shell made from golden light around you. Imagine this shell to be acting ike a membrane or filter. The positive (or beneficial aspects and energies) may pass towards you, the negative have to stay outside. Visualize yourself lying on the bed and this cocoon (expanding). The clearer the vision the more effective the protection it provides.

If you combine this with pranic techniques (inhaling golden light and exhaling smoke) it is a rather powerful tool for the mind and soul to protect and clean itself.

hug all the best and may the force be with you


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted:argh!! i had a whole reply ready to post. had it in preview mode & hit the close window button instead of post! ugh! ooooops

i can't just summarise. i'm going to retype it all again. how annoying!

 Written by: jarle

As for spiritual danger, it could mean a few things. Any imbalances, like spending too much time at work? What about any upsoming temptations?


can't think of anything like that. *shrugs*

 Written by: jarle

However, if you tell yourself that something bad is gonna happen, you'll see it round every corner.


exactly!

 Written by: Rouge Dragon

I think that his spirits of the past still speak to him, he just gives them a different name.


interesting. i know my dad would disagree vehemently, but for me, it's a very interesting point, indeed. *nods thoughtfully*

 Written by: PsyRush

tbh i can't really see why ur dad is worried confused


him & me, too! *shrugs again*

 Written by: PsyRush

If ur a spiritual explorer, no doubt along the way you'll cross paths with a person or cult that will try to enforce their beliefs on you, using a variety of coercive persuasion or brainwashing techniques. Remember, anyone can be brainwashed, especially if they don't have any knowledge about brainwashing techniques, so don't assume you're immune. Check out this website, has a lot of information about mind control etc: http://new.factnet.org/mindcont.htm


i wouldn't exactly call myself an 'explorer', but i have a more open mind about other religious beliefs that i used to.

i'd like to think that i wouldn't be 'sucked into' a cult, but it's always good to be prepared. thanks for the link. smile

 Written by: FireTom

3) Eggshell meditation: Lie in bed very calm and relaxed (dimmed light, aetheric oils/ incense, chilled music) and imagine there is a shell made from golden light around you. Imagine this shell to be acting ike a membrane or filter. The positive (or beneficial aspects and energies) may pass towards you, the negative have to stay outside. Visualize yourself lying on the bed and this cocoon (expanding). The clearer the vision the more effective the protection it provides.

If you combine this with pranic techniques (inhaling golden light and exhaling smoke) it is a rather powerful tool for the mind and soul to protect and clean itself.


i've had similar techniques told to me before & have practised them as such. definitely good tools for the mind & soul. *nods*

thanks everyone, for such thoughtful & thought=provoking replies. smile


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:ferrous,



Im not sure if this really answers your questions. But Ill "go for it", and hope it helps.



To me this says it all:



 Written by:

His background is that he was heavily involved in the occult from quite a young age.





I liked the Secret, the laws of attraction and creating our own reality. I think most of the best of the New Age Movement is based on Buddhism. Which is more about mindfulness, than belief in evil spirits and such.



Mindfulness bringing one's awareness back (i.e. from the past or the future) into the present moment. By residing more frequently in the present moment, practitioners begin to see both inner and outer aspects of reality. Inner reality may unfold as one sees that the mind is continually chattering with commentary or judgment. By noticing that the mind is continually making commentary, one has the ability to carefully notice those thoughts, and then decide if those thoughts have value. Those practicing mindfulness realize that "thoughts are just thoughts"; the thoughts themselves have little or no weight. One is free to release a thought ("let it go") when one realizes that the thought may not be concrete reality or absolute truth. Thus, one is free to observe life without getting caught in the commentary. Many "voices" or messages may speak to one within the "vocal" mind. It is important to be aware that the messages one hears during "thinking" may not be accurate or helpful, but rather may be translations of, or departures from truth." (Wiki).


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted: Written by: Stone

To me this says it all:

 Written by: ferrous

His background is that he was heavily involved in the occult from quite a young age.




i just thought i'd clarify here. when i say 'from quite a young age', i mean from as early as he can remember. so it would seem that it wasn't the influence of others at such a young age putting ideas in his mind. his mum is a strong catholic & isn't one to talk about or surround herself in the trappings of spiritism.

i tend to believe that children are fairly open to the actual realities of life & don't start to truly take on board the things they are told by adults (about social conventions, what's 'real' & what's not, etc) until they are about two or three. what i'm saying is that whatever his experience was, i believe it really was his own experience & wasn't influenced by other adults surrounding him as he wasn't introduced to the occult as a concept outside of his own experience until he was in his early teens, i think.

he's not an airy-fairy type person, either. he's very down-to-earth & practical. you might imagine someone less 'grounded' might be open to these sort of things in a less 'real' way at such a young age. hmm. hard to define very clearly in text, exactly what i'm trying to say.

 Written by: Stone


I liked the Secret, the laws of attraction and creating our own reality.


the first movie i watched to do with creating your own reality was 'what the bleep to we know?!' i then saw the secret, as well. i preferred 'what the bleep' since it seemed to be less hype, at least to me.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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jarle
GOLD Member since Mar 2007

jarle

Lv15 Ranger
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Hmm, the first movie I saw about 'making your own reality' would be the Matrix. Which apparently was heavily influenced by religion, most particularly Christianity.

I feel I should further explain my comments about Christianity, as it wasn't my intention to insult anyone or their beleif systems. Christianity started as a cult (as a beleif system centred around a single, charasmatic leader as opposed to set rules or traditions), and many of todays cults are 'Christian' in nature. The opposing side of this is 'mainstream' Christian Churches, which in my experience have been a good thing.

I reckon that children experience religion as a part of everyday life rather than something spiritual, I remember all throughout primary school (6-12yo) going to Church was done because it was done, similar to doing homework or cleaning your room. As I grew I started to question my faith more and more, learning about many different faiths and cultures to see where I'd 'fit in' with values that come innately to me.

Long story short, I reckon that religion doesn't really become fixed until you confirm it for yourself. It doesn't have to be done like me, and I'm sure there are other stories out there (such as ferrous' father), but I'm strongly against using religion - "I go to Church every week, thus I am a good Christian and therefore a good person" and "I'll be a Buddhist this week because it's cool" for example.


Kupo!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:ferrous, thanks for the clarification.





jarle, Ive never heard of the connection between the Matrix and Christianity. I thought the Wachowski brother used to read a lot of science fiction. And in many respects, there are many classic SF themes in the movie.



Edit: Actually, when I come to think of it there is a connection.



By the way, when I talk about Buddhism its from a philosophical, not from a religious point of view. Buddhists do not believe in supreme beings, and most of what Buddha taught was about how to live a better life. I was bought up a Roman Catholic, and I see Buddhism more as a guide to life, rather following a set of rules, that you must obey. Hope that make sense.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1200702257)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well Buddhism could be classified as having started as a cult either, if we'd apply the following definitition:

"a belief system centred around a single, charasmatic leader as opposed to set rules or traditions"

I would go as far as to say that (almost) every religion today once started out as a 'cult', if above definition applies. Zoroaster, Aaron, Mose, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, name them yourself... There are only few exceptions to this, IMHO.

Stone, again brushing all Buddhists over the same edge is unfair... you may refer to mainstream Buddhism or the one practised by the western fellowship, by that neglecting Thai or Tibetan or other forms of Buddhism.

I see all religions as a form of 'guidance', never dogmatic. Those which are, so obviously just aim for control shrug

Ferrous, what you mean by:

 Written by: ferrous

heavily involved in the occult

confused


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

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Posted: Written by: jarle



I feel I should further explain my comments about Christianity, as it wasn't my intention to insult anyone or their beleif systems. Christianity started as a cult (as a beleif system centred around a single, charasmatic leader as opposed to set rules or traditions), and many of todays cults are 'Christian' in nature. The opposing side of this is 'mainstream' Christian Churches, which in my experience have been a good thing.









imo just having a charismatic leader isn't enough to call something a cult. The leader has to be (either consciously or unconsciously) using coercive persuasion to trick the followers into following their way. The leader is also a narcissitic ego-maniac who just wants more followers and more money. I don't really think buddha or jesus were like this. There are plenty of others, though, who have used their teachings to create cults.



How to identify a destructive cult


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:ferrous, I think you know your father well, and you will come to the right conclusions. I liked the Secret because it was Australian, though I did cringe when I watched the Oprah specials.

Apologies, if it seems like Im hijacking your thread for a quick post.

Whats the problem Fire Tom? Im not a Buddhist; I just look to it for life skills. Perhaps you should look at the rest of the criteria for a cult.

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. Dont think this applies. Quite the contrary, and this really answers your again brushing all Buddhists over the same edge is unfair accusation, which imo appears dogmatic. One of the best things about Buddhism is that it is adaptable. Thats why it had been adopted and adapted by so many different cultures; from Thai to Tibetan to Japanese to Chinese and even to some in the west.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering etc. No, Buddha had to be persuaded to teach. And I dont think there is any reference to him persuading followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow him. People follow his teachings because their truth is self-evident.

I think you make a mistake of confusing Buddha with Jesus and Messiahs. Again, Ill state that Buddha was a gifted psychoanalysist, and Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion. Why do you think they teach mindfulness, as mentioned above, in conjunction with things like cognitive behaviour therapy.

While you may see all religions as a form of 'guidance', never dogmatic, the reality is vastly different.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted: Written by: FireTom


Ferrous, what you mean by:

 Written by: ferrous

heavily involved in the occult

confused


are you asking what i mean by the word 'heavily'?

well, i guess i mean that it had become a big enough part of his life that it affected many parts of his life perhaps that it shouldn't have: his personality, his relationships, what he thought was 'normal' & acceptable.

that last one (what he thought was 'normal' & acceptable) i'll explain with a story i heard him tell a couple of times as part of his testimony at church camps or meetings: he sat watching my sister (about 2 years old) & myself (just a few months old) playing on the floor & idly wondered how many matchboxes it would take to put us in if he chopped us up into pieces.

that story never really freaked me out as some might think it would because i was too young to remember him as that man. from all accounts, he was like a different man after his conversion.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:rolleyes I slipped into opposition hug



 Written by: Dictionary.com

cultnoun



1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

7. the members of such a religion or sect.

8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

adjective

9. of or pertaining to a cult.

10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.





 Written by: Dictionary.com

religionnoun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Idiom

9. get religion, Informal.

a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.

b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.





No problem not even much of an objection, just participating in the discussion, bro' wink And seeming to draw the wrong conclusions from your mission to advocate Buddhism as the ultimate universal solution to mankinds problems in each and every thread you post in... shrug wink Have you met Buddha? Or any of the prophets? Personally I haven't and depend on (usually corrupted) informations...



and we end up in the same merry-go-round argument time and again [le sigh] anyone pro opening up a "discussions on Buddhism thread"?



*bows out*



Ferrous: I emphasize on "heavily" and "the occult". Thoughts have the power over your life that you give them. I reckon it's quite fortunate he didn't try how many boxes it would have taken.... [phew]

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1200740672)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

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Posted: Written by: ferrous



 Written by: FireTom



Ferrous, what you mean by:



 Written by: ferrous

heavily involved in the occult

confused



are you asking what i mean by the word 'heavily'?



well, i guess i mean that it had become a big enough part of his life that it affected many parts of his life perhaps that it shouldn't have: his personality, his relationships, what he thought was 'normal' & acceptable.



that last one (what he thought was 'normal' & acceptable) i'll explain with a story i heard him tell a couple of times as part of his testimony at church camps or meetings: he sat watching my sister (about 2 years old) & myself (just a few months old) playing on the floor & idly wondered how many matchboxes it would take to put us in if he chopped us up into pieces.



that story never really freaked me out as some might think it would because i was too young to remember him as that man. from all accounts, he was like a different man after his conversion.





What does the word "occult" actually mean though? To me it brings up horror-movie-like visions of people placing curses and doing voodoo, seances, being possessed, using the "power of satan", using spells for power and destruction etc. TBH i find it hard to believe that people like this actually exist, i mean i've met a lot of very alternative people, and none of them have been into anything like that. That said, that's only in adelaide, it could be different elsewhere.



I've done a lot of lucid dreaming (sometimes called astral projection), which people sometimes associate with the "occult". Somehow though, i've never had the urge to chop up kids and put them in matchboxes.



To me it seems like the "occult" is just a scapegoat... some sort of vague, misunderstood concept that people like to blame for society's problems (a bit like violence in video games, or drugs).



At a glance it'd seem more likely that your dad was suffering from post natal depression, which isn't really that uncommon or abnormal. I can only speculate though - there are a million and 1 reasons why someone might be having violent fantasies. Bad spirits, though, seems like one of the more far-fetched explanations.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well that story freaks me out, and to me there is a lot more going on here. I think Rouge made a good point.

I dont believe in spirits, perhaps because me mum was bipolar, but intuition can be accurate. So I wouldnt write off the warning completely. I think Id just get on with my life, and keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary. Though, Im tempted to ask if you think it has anything to do with getting attention. Or something like PsyRush said at the end.

Fire Tom, how about you look up philosophy.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jarle
GOLD Member since Mar 2007

jarle

Lv15 Ranger
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 1489
Posted:Gah, I didn't mean that all Buddhists join because it's popular, I just don't like those individuals that do to be cool!

*backs away slowly before he insults anyone else*


Kupo!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for the clarification, but you don't need to back away. Go for it! I'd suggest that joining takes more of a commitment than just being cool.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ferrous, it could very well be possible that as you progress in life and become less credulous your dad is interpreting this as "spiritual danger". As a skeptic, the first thing that pops into my mind is to question the validity of his "abilities" , such as making predictions that you outlined above.

Hey, make enough predictions and at least some of them are bound to turn out.

Most people like to subject themselves to some sort of belief system in order to try and explain the world, but here, it seems like there's a few systems running together. Just how do "bad spirits" work themselves into Christianity ? Possession ?

I can't offer much in the way of suggestions as to what you can say to him, beyond reassuring him that you're spiritually content with they way your life is now. Fire in the odd reference to guardian angels and hopefully that will do at least something to allay his fears about your situation.

And let's hope he keeps this just about you, and not your son, That's when things can get rather ugly.

Also it might help to not mention other belief systems,,like that crap they spout in movies like What the Bleep...( it's a propaganda film for a cult ) or The Secret ( funded by credit card companies wink ) as being perceived as going another path, read: the wrong path may be perceived as worse than not going down any path at all.

Good luck.


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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

member
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Posted: Written by: FireTom

Ferrous: I emphasize on "heavily" and "the occult". Thoughts have the power over your life that you give them.


i totally agree with you on that one. *nods*

 Written by: FireTom

I reckon it's quite fortunate he didn't try how many boxes it would have taken.... [phew]


definitely! well, you would have all been saved from this thread .. lol! biggrin

 Written by: PsyRush


What does the word "occult" actually mean though? To me it brings up horror-movie-like visions of people placing curses and doing voodoo, seances, being possessed, using the "power of satan", using spells for power and destruction etc. TBH i find it hard to believe that people like this actually exist, i mean i've met a lot of very alternative people, and none of them have been into anything like that. That said, that's only in adelaide, it could be different elsewhere.


well, the definition that i've heard is given in wikipedia: 'The word occult comes from the Latin occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to 'knowledge of the hidden'.' it also includes the things that you mentioned, but most people don't get into in such a way that they start to behave any differently than anyone else.

 Written by: PsyRush

I've done a lot of lucid dreaming (sometimes called astral projection), which people sometimes associate with the "occult". Somehow though, i've never had the urge to chop up kids and put them in matchboxes.


astral projection is considered to an occult practice. this is something that dad did, too. he told of one time when he was doing this while watching a training film (he was in the armed forces) & he stayed away too long. the film finished & the others tried to wake him, thinking he was asleep. he was watching this go on & thought it was amusing until they started thinking he had died (because his signs of life had slowed down to such an extent)! oops.

 Written by: PsyRush

At a glance it'd seem more likely that your dad was suffering from post natal depression, which isn't really that uncommon or abnormal. I can only speculate though - there are a million and 1 reasons why someone might be having violent fantasies. Bad spirits, though, seems like one of the more far-fetched explanations.


at a glance, perhaps, but no, that definitely wasn't the case. he never blamed it on bad spirits. he always said that it was his state of mind at the time. it was the culmination of behaviours that had built up gradually over a long time to result in 'mad' thoughts like that. basically, a long path to slowly becoming insane.

 Written by: Stone

Well that story freaks me out, and to me there is a lot more going on here. I think Rouge made a good point.

I dont believe in spirits, perhaps because me mum was bipolar, but intuition can be accurate.


i've never felt the presence of spirits of good or bad nature, personally, but by the same token, that doesn't mean i don't believe they exist, or at the very least, that others have experienced them. i tend to believe that some experiences really are spirits & some are brought about by mental instabilities. i don't think i could ever really have the expertise or the knowlege to differentiate between the two unless it was actually happening to me.

 Written by: Stone

So I wouldnt write off the warning completely. I think Id just get on with my life, and keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary.


i am pretty much taking the tack that you said.

 Written by: Stone

Though, Im tempted to ask if you think it has anything to do with getting attention. Or something like PsyRush said at the end.


hehehe. not at all. i guess i know my dad well enough to know he's not like that. i said we are close, but we don't actually talk all that often. my dad's side of the family is like that. we hardly ever talk to them, but we know we all love each other & any of them would jump immediately if anyone needed help or support. a very loyal lot.

 Written by: Stout

Ferrous, it could very well be possible that as you progress in life and become less credulous your dad is interpreting this as "spiritual danger". As a skeptic, the first thing that pops into my mind is to question the validity of his "abilities" , such as making predictions that you outlined above.

Hey, make enough predictions and at least some of them are bound to turn out.


he's not really in the habit of making 'predictions'. i didn't mean for it to come across that way. what i mean is that he occasionally has strong feelings about one thing or another. i suppose i'd call it intuition. he just follows that intuition.

 Written by: Stout

Most people like to subject themselves to some sort of belief system in order to try and explain the world, but here, it seems like there's a few systems running together. Just how do "bad spirits" work themselves into Christianity ? Possession ?


what do you mean by a few systems running together? yes, he believes in a spiritual plane of existence since he's seen & felt them at various times in his life, but he doesn't go out of his way to talk to spirits anymore. i suppose (& i'm just extrapolating from what i know of him) he doesn't believe they should be given the time of day unless it's required to talk to them .. as you said, in the case of possession. even that he's not dealt with in a long time, i think.

 Written by: Stout

I can't offer much in the way of suggestions as to what you can say to him, beyond reassuring him that you're spiritually content with they way your life is now. Fire in the odd reference to guardian angels and hopefully that will do at least something to allay his fears about your situation.


i haven't spoken to him about it since i talked to him on the phone last week. all i said to him at the time was something to the effect of, 'thanks for the warning. i'll keep it in mind.' after he'd told me, we moved onto the other usual topics such as what our various children are up to. smile

 Written by: Stout

And let's hope he keeps this just about you, and not your son, That's when things can get rather ugly.


i'm not sure what you mean by that. are you saying that he's trying to influence the life of my son? aside from the usual things like the giving of christian story/sticker books that the rest of my immediate family also do (not as a trying to convert him thing, just because christianity is a big part of their lives. in fact, dad himself has never bought anything christian-like for smiley. as in many families, his wife is the one that usually takes care of gift giving things) he's never mentioned god or jesus to smiley. at four years old, he's not really old enough to understand much of it except how it's often presented as the 'christmas story'. falsely, i might add, since from my limited understanding, the original christmas is actually based around pagan traditions & the christians kind of adopted & adapted it for their own purposes.

 Written by: Stout

Also it might help to not mention other belief systems[.. snip ..]


i never have to dad. there's no point arguing about christianity or the validity, or otherwise, of other beliefs with him. his beliefs are very strong & the argument would simply go around in circles.

 Written by: Stout

[..snip..] movies like What the Bleep...( it's a propaganda film for a cult ) or The Secret ( funded by credit card companies wink ) as being perceived as going another path, read: the wrong path may be perceived as worse than not going down any path at all.


i know many people consider what's presented in those movies to be complete bunk, but i've not heard that before about 'the secret' being funded by credit card companies. where did you get that information from? i'd be interested to look into it.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ferrous, What I was trying to say about your son and it getting ugly is. Suppose your dad thinks your deviation from the Christian path is putting you in spiritual danger, then he might also think that you, yourself are putting your son in spiritual danger and may take steps to counteract what he may believe is not a good thing for your son.

I dunno, just thought I'd bring it up but seeing as how I know absolutely nothing about you, your son, or your dad, I could be way, way off the mark. Likewise with the few systems running together comment. It's just that most Christians I know, don't talk in terms of "spirits" doing things. There's God, Satan, and the odd angel. I've never come across Christians talking about life in the spirit world, or a spiritual plane of existence except as a metaphor for one's relationship with God. It's either Heaven, or Hell. Oh and there's Purgatory too.

Yep, Christmas has pagan roots. Not Egyptian roots as that other Australian movie, Zeitgeist claims, but there's no point in letting your son in on that as long as he enjoys the whole spirit of the season. He'll make up his own mind about the whole big daddy in the sky thing in his own time.

As to the Secret and credit card companies thing. I just made that up, that's why there's that little winking smiley beside that statement. There is a grain of truth to it however, as there were an awful lot of bankruptcies caused by people watching the movie, maxing out their credit cards, and hoping the money to pay them off would magically manifest itself at the end of the month.


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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted: Written by: Stout

Ferrous, What I was trying to say about your son and it getting ugly is. Suppose your dad thinks your deviation from the Christian path is putting you in spiritual danger, then he might also think that you, yourself are putting your son in spiritual danger and may take steps to counteract what he may believe is not a good thing for your son.

I dunno, just thought I'd bring it up but seeing as how I know absolutely nothing about you, your son, or your dad, I could be way, way off the mark.


well, no worries there. smile as far as my dad knows, i just don't go to church anymore. none of my beliefs about life/sprituality/religion etc are visible outwardly in much form other than having a fairly positive outlook on life .. which i always had anyway.

 Written by: Stout

Likewise with the few systems running together comment. It's just that most Christians I know, don't talk in terms of "spirits" doing things. There's God, Satan, and the odd angel. I've never come across Christians talking about life in the spirit world, or a spiritual plane of existence except as a metaphor for one's relationship with God.


i guess talk of spirits is more in the pentecostal churches than the very conservative, traditional christian churches. i grew up in both types of churches.

 Written by: Stout

Oh and there's Purgatory too.


that's catholicism.

 Written by: Stout

Yep, Christmas has pagan roots. Not Egyptian roots as that other Australian movie, Zeitgeist claims, but there's no point in letting your son in on that as long as he enjoys the whole spirit of the season. He'll make up his own mind about the whole big daddy in the sky thing in his own time.


exactly. i've told him that santa isn't real. my parents never pushed santa on us & i don't feel as though i missed out. we still got pictures taken with santa at the shops. just something you do, ya know?

 Written by: Stout

As to the Secret and credit card companies thing. I just made that up, that's why there's that little winking smiley beside that statement. There is a grain of truth to it however, as there were an awful lot of bankruptcies caused by people watching the movie, maxing out their credit cards, and hoping the money to pay them off would magically manifest itself at the end of the month.


hehe. oh, i see. mah. redface

so people seriously did that? goodness me .. that's just stupidity. *pffft!* lol! ubblol


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:So it's all good then.

You never know, this is the internet....
I don't see why he couldn't be thinking that either your happiness, or soul is in some sort of danger for your lack of adherence to the faith. Given the background in your OP I was wondering whether he might be thinking that some sort of vile lizard creature from the other dimension was going to pop out and do something evil to you.

By big daddy in the sky I was actually meaning God,not Santa. But given that we were talking about Christmas, then he'll do too.

Yea, winking smileys, i needed them explained to me too.


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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted: Written by: Stout

By big daddy in the sky I was actually meaning God,not Santa. But given that we were talking about Christmas, then he'll do too.


lol!! i knew you meant that. i guess i should have made a new paragraph there since i was kind of changing topic. lol! biggrin


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:find me bit confused upon the topic "spiritual danger/ enlightenment"... not sure what one has to do with the other... Yet I find kids much open and by that closer to "supernatural phenomenon" (in which I'd include telepathy, foresight and clear vision) than adults.

To me a 'cult' is not necessarily "dark" or "satanic" in any way (in it's meaning of "religious practice), but I know what you mean if you use it in this context... I reckon that all of us have (had) 'weird' thoughts at one time or the other in our lives. Some classify them as "voices of bad spirits" and really it might only be trying to enclose that 'weird' aspect within ourselves - as we are educated to suppress these thoughts in order to become "angels".

As "angels" are a part of Christianity, certainly their counterparts ("evil spirits") are a part just as such. "Angels" comprise all the positive ("godlike") qualities, as "evil spirits" do with negative ("devilish").

So far "official" Christianity as a whole has undertaken a great deal of effort to eradicate "pagan" elements, like "possession" "evil spirits" "foresight" and the like. If you look regional you may still find that these elements are still present.

In accordance with your topic (or what I guess it is) I side Stone about the possible influence your dad might have or take on your kid. (I also have only little clues about you, your dad or your family, hence I need to point out that in some cases aspects of their youth resurface in later years, so just keep the matchboxes apart from the kitchen knives and you're safe umm wink )


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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ferrous
BRONZE Member since Jan 2008

ferrous

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Posted: Written by: FireTom

find me bit confused upon the topic "spiritual danger/ enlightenment"... not sure what one has to do with the other...


my point with the topic was that i wondered if someone who had definite ideas on what the 'right' religion is, might find that what i call spritual enlightenment (or perhaps being more open-minded to other ways of thinking) they might call spiritual danger: simply because it doesn't agree with what they see as the right way to go. i.e. i see it as enlightenment, he might see it as danger.

 Written by: FireTom

So far "official" Christianity as a whole has undertaken a great deal of effort to eradicate "pagan" elements, like "possession" "evil spirits" "foresight" and the like. If you look regional you may still find that these elements are still present.


i have to disagree with you there. it really depends on what denomination you're with. as i stated earlier, i've been brought up in church & i've experienced different christian churches from very traditional baptist churches through to 'happy-clappy' charistmatic/pentecostal churches where people going up the front for healing prayer is nothing out of the ordinary. spiritual possession certainly wasn't an everyday occurrence there, but it was spoken of & referred to enough for it not to be something unusual.

 Written by: FireTom

In accordance with your topic (or what I guess it is) I side Stone about the possible influence your dad might have or take on your kid. (I also have only little clues about you, your dad or your family, hence I need to point out that in some cases aspects of their youth resurface in later years, so just keep the matchboxes apart from the kitchen knives and you're safe umm wink )


lol!! really, i trust my dad with my life & my family. to meet him now you'd never know he was involved in any of the stuff he was involved in or that he was *this* close (holds finger & thumb barely apart) to being insane enough to commit an act like that. not once in as long as i remember him has he ever shown any sign of madness, even when i was an annoying teenager. lol! biggrin

he's a normal, passionate, caring, family man. smile

of course .. if i suddenly drop off the face of the hop boards & no one ever sees me or smiley again at juggle jam on monday nights .. eek

rotfl!!! i'm just joking, really! ubblol biggrin ubbangel


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.

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