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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Cycles, Frame of Refence, and Relativity it's poi stuff, I swear!

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AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
Some ideas are brewing in my head, as of late. I think there is an important distinction between 'circle' and 'cycle':


Circle is spatial, a geometric shape.

Cycle is temporal, people feel they complete a "beat" when they complete a cycle in time

Cycles and/or Beats are periodic (duh)





In terms of spinning, a 'Cycle' is when the orientation of element A to element B has gone sequentially through 360 degrees (2pi) of rotation. The simplest cycle that we all tend to start out with is a cycle of 'poi head' (A) relative to 'poi handle' (B). If the handle is static, then the head traces a circle.



The poi can complete a cycle, even if the head isn't making a circle. The poi can trace a circle even if it is not completing a cycle. This can happen as long as some other relational element completes a cycle. An example would be an "R-type": The poi or staff itself is not cycling in the head handle relationship, so its orientation to the world is static. However, the hand is moving around a circle and it's orientation to a pivot point is cycling. This in turn causes the head of the poi to trace a circle as well.



I think this is an important concept to work with. For instance, it can be misleading to talk about flowers as having circles. A 4 petal flower has the poi cycling around the hand 5 times for every 1 cycle the arm makes. A 4 petal antispin flower has the poi cycling around the hand 3 times for every 1 cycle the arm makes. To the audience, the pattern that the head makes for one hand cycle is not a circle, nor is the patter made after going through the arm cycle, it is some sort of 'cycloid as opposed to a circle.



This is another interesting point: Frame of reference (relativity).

It depends on your frame of reference as to what patterns you see the poi describe over time in the air. For instance, the audience sees a quadrafoil antispin pattern, but the proverbial fly on the spinner's hand sees the poi trace a circle 3 times for every one time the background moves around circularly. So it isn't exactly false to say that the poi is making circles either.



Thanks to the effect of frame of reference on thinking about spinning more complex patterns, It seems more appropriate to think in terms of cycles rather than beats and/or circles.



Although the cycle concept that I've outlined so far frees up how one can think of what is going on in terms of translation through space and positional frame of reference, there is still the problem of orientational frame of reference. If your frame of reference is spinning along with the cycling of some element, it complicates perceiving the cycle. So far I've been thinking of defining it related to a fixed "world space" frame of reference.



Any thoughts on all of this? What do you all think?



-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Posted:
Has Richee got a new login? wink

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
Durbs: AHEM!



Well, this were allready discussed a while back.



To reference:



-Circle, Cone, Carry theory (Glass, Cole?)



"Beat exist is three main reality."



There is 'one' circle, that is representing buzzsaw.

The is a 'side' cone, representing frame.

There is 'transition' carry, sphere.



-Timing(Hyperlight experiment(ie. mcp))



Truly can have description to be multisinal path.



Question:



How polyrhythm appear on the graph?



-Postmodernist framework (Dom!, Glass)



Planar system, were well unified over the time.

Where framing, meen thingz like mirroring, ove-

laping, compound, in the front, BTB.



-------------



I recomend Alien to search more, dig more

for fundamentalz.



Reply to PM question!



off lunch,



:R

POI THEO(R)IST

mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Posted:
I saw alien jon onna video.

I even saw his face, cos it wasn't a fire video! Yowsa!

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
MCP: Yowsa, as in "that handsome devil"?
Probably Noel's Spherecamp'07 video from Austin, TX, no?


Yeah that was me pantomiming "getting tagged in the face" wile teaching some basic inswings... You need to assume the proper stance when getting tagged... the class got about as far as introversions, when their brains started melting, but it was a nice start.

There is also a brief clip of me spinning fire towards the end of the video, right after Adam's double devil stix.

Ok, back on topic(~ish)!

1st: is there a better place on the forums for this thread than advanced poi moves, since it is pretty much abstracted from any actual move, and if so, should it be moved there?

2nd: Durbs, resistance is futile! You all should just start jabbering about incomprehensible crap now, and be done with it... (not like that ever happens on HoP, now does it)

3rd: Richee, After searching again, as far as I can tell, I'm not finding anything that discusses what I'm trying to convey here. Over the years, I've read all the stuff that comes up from the search, and I just reread anything that looked promising. If you or anyone else could point me in the right direction, by clearly linking to specific posts that contain similar ideas, I'd really appreciate it.

That said, it is likely that I'm not presenting what I'm trying to convey very well.

*Disclaimer* Right now I'm working with a simplified idea, that only deals with stuff 'in a plane' (2d). When we actually spin it is obviously in 3d.

Ok, so look at this animation:



Now, I know with poi this video is an over simplification. When you actually spin this, the timing of hand movement is all wonky, accelerating and decelerating thanks to gravity... and it's rather hard to spin cleanly.

But here is the important question: does the poi head, or handle for that matter, make a circle? Answer: nope!

However, the head's orientation to the handle does cycle through 360degrees.

I'm sure plenty of people are aware on some level of this, but I've never seen it pointed out on this site in a clear concise way, so that people that are unaware can be turned on to it easily. If I've missed it, someone please provide a link to it!

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
1. No.

2. CORRECT!

3. Do I?

4. ...



But wait, but answer:



Yes, 360.




Non-Https Image Link




(basic)



---------------------------------------------



May, later further comment.



off video,



:R

POI THEO(R)IST

astonSILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa

Posted:
I think I get it.

Any application? I was thinking it might have use when teaching. Kill or cure sort of thing.

Would you say that poi in a flower have two different cycles?
There is the movement around your hand and the movement around the shoulder.

Am I right in thinking that a butterfly would be an example of a circle and a cycle being the same? Because if so then I really think I get what you are saying.

I am just trying to see where this distinction becomes useful.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

TankboySILVER Member
Resident Demolitions Expert
103 posts
Location: San Francisco, Ca, USA

Posted:
yes, butterfly, being two circles, spun with the center of rotation at the hand, rotates at one circle per cycle.

however, the three beat weave, by definition has 3 beats per hand per cycle.

but does that make it a 3 beat cycle or a 6 beat cycle.


and what is the link between beats and tention points.

because in spin, each beat has an inward or upward tug, but in antispin, those tugs dont represent foils, and not beats....or maybe a foil is an antispin beat, and a spin flower is 5 rotations per cycle while an antispin flower is 3 rpc

ok....here is my statement

A beat is counted by the points you have to add force to the poi, (4 beat antispin flowers)

A rotation represents the head of the poi rotating 360*
whether that is caused by a poi head circle, and hand circle (head isolation), or any combination including linear isolations.

A cycle is the full range of movement in any repeating pattern before it repeats itself, it can be measured by beats per cycle (bpc) or rotations per cycle (rpc).
like three beat weave is the 3 bpc weave and the 3 rpc weave.

so a cat eye is 2 bps but 1 rps

and an antispin weave is 3 bps, and i think 2 rps....



so?
AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
 Written by: aston



...Any application? I was thinking it might have use when teaching...





Most definitely in teaching! Also, I think it's a useful concept to share when trying to talk about/convey complex moves in general.





 Written by: aston



...Would you say that poi in a flower have two different cycles?

There is the movement around your hand and the movement around the shoulder.





The way I'm thinking, a cycle is the change in orientation of one element (ie the poi head) in relation to another (ie the handle) (simply put: rotation), as observed by yet another element... usually the audience, but the observer could be other parts of the spinning system (person with poi).



So the poi is defined in this case as the relation of head to handle, and locally it is not a set of cycles that it has, just one.



The arm as defined by the relation of hand to shoulder, has a cycle too.



The ratio of poi cycles to arm cycles in the case of a 4-petal flower would be 5:1



We are basically saying the same thing but you were applying both of those cycles to the poi itself. What I'm trying to do is look at it as a hierarchal system of relationships, in time, and spatial position and orientation... This is useful when you are trying to understand what the heck you are doing, in a geometric sense, when spinning some crazy pattern that makes pretty shapes, so that you can look for key attributes that will help your body make sense of applying the relationships in all sorts of other ways... and then talk about WTF you are doing.





 Written by: aston



Am I right in thinking that a butterfly would be an example of a circle and a cycle being the same



Yes! Most of the basic patterns have the poi trace a circle in space over one cycle.





-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
So Tankboy is making it clear to me that I should maybe just use the term 'rotation' for what I was talking about above, but define rotation as: an element relating to another element by going sequentially through all 360 degrees of orientation. An entity completes a rotational cycle, when it rotates 360 degrees as observed by another element. I'm defining an entity as at least 2 elements (ie points) that is observed by a third element or (maybe) entity.

I was trying to keep this 2d for now, but I suppose we might as well dive right into 3d with Tankboy's 3-beat weave example. I'll respond to that in a minute.
I'm trying to form my ideas in a geometric sense with a fairly simple idea of periodicity in time. This model is meant to be abstracted from physics. it's something to use to get your bearings in a complex system of things rotating and translating through space over time that helps you visualize patterns you want to make with your poi (and body). This model can also be helpful for reconfiguring parts of patterns, or playing with variations on relationships so as to apply them to other patterns. In that sense, I think it is a bit like Coleman's 8-dimensional matrix construct.

This is a model that you then apply physics, or at least your body to in order to try and approximate different patterns with.

MCP animates great patterns in her LAB videos. Then actually doing them for real with the human body and prop(s) is a whole other layer to apply. The point is, if you can visualize and understand relationships in the modeled patterns, then you can keep focused on that to get your body to do them.

So Tank, I'd say "and what is the link between beats and tention points" is outside the scope of what I'm getting at, but we can always discus it as a slight tangent/apply the model to it.


Tankboy, I'm gonna cover your points in the next post.

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
Butterfly: each poi is completing a rotational cycle that describes a circle

3-beat weave: The pattern completes 1 over all cycle. Within that pattern cycle there are several other cycles. A poi makes 3 rotational cycles (as viewed when looking at the planes). A poi also makes 1 planefacing cycle (switches plane facing and then switches back). If you are thinking of a 3-beat weave as a compressed 2-petal flower, then the hand makes 1 rotational cycle (about a Center of Rotation: CoR). The hand also makes 1 planefacing cycle.

Beats and tension points: This is why I'm trying to differentiate beats, rotations, and cycles. I tend to feel beats from the up and down stroke of circular spinning. I'd agree that the tension in flowers makes me want to feel the petals as beats. Some people feel the poi rotation cycles as beats though. Beats are pretty subjective as they tend to be linked to feeling a rhythm. Moloch planted the seeds for this in my mind in this post on tribe. Thanks Moloch!

Observing cycles of rotation however can give further insight than feeling beats, sometimes.

4-petal flower: 5 poi rotation cycles per 1 arm rotation cycle. Feels like 4 beats to me, but gets muddled up with an extra pseudo-beat as that extra poi cycle lands.

4-petal antispin flower: 3 poi rotation cycles per 1 arm rotation cycle. Feels like 4 beats to me, but feels like I'm missing a beat at the same time due to only 3 poi cycles.

I agree that beats have something to do with feeling tension and/or adding force.

A rotation can be for any entity, not just the poi. It could be an abstract one like the hand relating to a CoR out in space as you do an unit circle extension as part of a hybrid. Or even better, it could be the hand rotating a unit circle, in a cateye (of the antispin ellipse variety). This is a good example because wile the hand describes a circle in one direction the poi head describes an ellipse, and is rotating in the other direction.

BPC and RPC are 2 ways that one entity can relate to another.

Cateye: I'll by 1 RPC, in that the poi complete one rotational cycle per pattern cycle. But it feels more like one BPC to me... Beats are subjective rolleyes

The way I do the antispin weave It has 3 poi rotational cycles, just like a 3-beat weave. Therefore it has 4 petals, and the beats have that feeling of both 4 and 3 at the same time. So Definitely 3 RPC and the beats are 4~ish. In my mind the 3-petal/3~ish-beat antispin weave is analogous to the 2-beat weave, as it has 2 RPC.

Ok, I think I like how this is working so far. Further thoughts, anyone?

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHj82hp1zUg



Do you know about independent spinning?



 Written by:

Alien

Coleman's 8-dimensional matrix construct.







COLEMAN!



--------------------------------------------------------



Cross-reference:



Tention point("Leading theory" Rev)

Virtual beat("Modifier" The Wibbler).

Rationalization("Golden ratio" Rev)



Wolfram's demonstrations



--------------------------------------------------------



What about spring weekend?



the lightning,



:R

POI THEO(R)IST

splinterificGOLD Member
enthusiast
248 posts
Location: Ireland

Posted:
i must add...

/cry
mcpPLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom

Posted:
 Written by: AlienJon


MCP: Yowsa, as in "that handsome devil"?
Probably Noel's Spherecamp'07 video from Austin, TX, no?




Yup! and in response to the first question, nope! tongue Just that you don't look like arashi, which is kinda what i imagined you would look like. You look like his burly younger bro. ubbrollsmile

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:

Non-Https Image Link


Polyherdal koala?

sweet,

:R

POI THEO(R)IST

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
 Written by: Richee

Do you know about independent spinning?


In what sense?

Yes I spin independently with either hand, sometimes it comes together in interesting patterns in the "2 different driving styles" hybrid sense... like the one in my video, there. I personally like to think of it as "Composite Spinning" and view 'Hybrids' as a stricter subset of 'Composites'.

I've played a tiny bit with doing it in one hand... but nothing like what Andy Haus does! I did get a few beats of the mercedes (poly butterfly trifoil) in one hand... one time, one inspired night... but I haven't explored it since.

I do the one in that sim video in wall plane in front of me. The bottom half is that of a quadrafoil polyrhythm butterfly hybrid (X). The top half is comprised of an expanded linear extension, and a horizontal one, in pendulum form. Naturally the timing is a bit wonkier in real life.

I don't think I've come across Rev's Leading theory yet

I've seen mention on |S| about modifiers, but haven't read about his ideas in depth... but since Matt seems to be involved in graphic design and 3d modeling, I can see as how the "modifier" idea from those fields could translate to poi... In fact, I sometimes think in those terms. A lot of what I'm talking about in this thread has been developed wile modeling poi in 3D Studio MAX.

I've read some of the Phi stuff Rev talked about. I've played with the golden ratio in 3d modeling as well.

More simulations will be up soon!

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
 Written by: MCP

Just that you don't look like arashi, which is kinda what i imagined you would look like. You look like his burly younger bro.





Just you wait until I have my hair up with cat ears, and show some belly wink



-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
Sweet Koala!
Man I want to play with that when I get some time.

+Alien Jon

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
 Written by:

Alien: In what sense?





Is independent spinning polyrhytm? I think not. Independent spinning require to understand time. In any sense.



*Rev's leading theory talk about exactly 'focal' point, or at least primary focus.



-Wolfram's Pedal Curve



-Modding, you want to say context, right.



-Not virtual yet.



------------------------------------------------



Start, Stop, Start, Stop..



slow mo,



:R

POI THEO(R)IST

astonSILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa

Posted:
 Written by: AlienJon


A poi also makes 1 planefacing cycle (switches plane facing and then switches back).



Sorry. Please clarify this?

I like this though. Do not really understand how this works for the weave though. Need to reread a couple times.

And I see what you mean about the poi only having one cycle in a flower.

Wait....

In any given move, on its own, there can only be one cycle, yes? Or am I thinking slightly wrong?

eg: The cycle in a 3beat weave for your right hand is: one rotation on the right, two on the left. Then repeat this.
For the left: one rotation on the left, two on the right.

Would that mean that there is only one cycle consisting of three rotations?

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
Aston:

Just came back to reread this thread and saw your post. Sorry for not replying sooner. rolleyes



There can be many cycles of different durations in a system. For instance a year is one cycle. Within one yearly cycle there are a bunch of lunar cycles.



As far as a 3-beat (aka 1st-degree weave) goes. There is 1 "master" cycle: the time it takes to complete a repetition of the pattern. This is what you are talking about. Now we can break it down and look at a component of the pattern, say plane-facing switches: in a 3-beat weave there is 1 'PF' cycle... but in a '5-beat (2nd degree) weave with a 1st degree cross-hand led inversion' there are 3 plan-facing switches for every repeatition of the pattern. eek



The idea of cycles as it stands in my mind now is as a way to look at what all the components of a move are doing in time with each other.



-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

ImbalanceGOLD Member
not different, just not the same
263 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Posted:
holy crap... you guys see that... that's my brains splattered all over the wall after my head exploded. Man that's gonna take a while to clean up... *gets mop/bucket*

But seriously, I like the cycle concept, lets you specify relationships that might be harder to explain otherwise.

I once learned every move that there was,
Every style, Every technique.
Then I woke up, and forgot it all,
So now I struggle to dream.

astonSILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa

Posted:
Hmmm.... So how would wraps and tangles fit into this?

And no worries about the delayed reply.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
Somehow like 'hybrid tangle' or 'thru wrap'?

Dunno, it's all about circle.

off with Abe,

:R

POI THEO(R)IST

bluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere

Posted:
biggrin

move to scotland, would ya, jon?

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
 Written by :aston


Hmmm.... So how would wraps and tangles fit into this?




Well, decide what parameters of wraps and tangles you want to look at.
A wrap combo would have cycles of direction changes.
This would be related to cycles for speed/velocity changes.
This relationship would become more complex with spiral wraps.
There would also be a wrap state (kinda like a tangle nexus state), and the associated cycles of entering/duration/exiting.
This becomes more important with through wraps. No direction change, but cycles for wrap state and speed/poi length change.

Tangles would have similar cycles for the changes in speed and nexus state.
Also adding and subtracting twists.

Hows that for startes off the top of my head?

+Alien Jon

AlienJonGOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA

Posted:
 Written by :bluecat


biggrin

move to scotland, would ya, jon?



Hehe, well is there some (semi)reasonable way for me to make a living and feed myself wile doing cool stuffs there? Can I/must I get a work Visa? How much to fly over?

What I'm getting at is, I'd love to do some world traveling, and Scotland seems like a nice enough place, with some people that are as obsessed with certain things as I am... So let me know if there were an opportunity! ubbrollsmile

+Alien Jon

TheAmazingBazBRONZE Member
stranger
6 posts
Location: Boston, USA

Posted:
Regarding tangles, I wouldn't think that the location of the center of rotation of the poi would directly effect the analysis of the poi's movement cycles. That is to say, if the poi was isolated then there would be so assumption of paradigm shift, and a tangle is simply a poi that has the capacit for independent rotation on either side of its center of rotation.

At the most, I think there could be an extra assumption of polyrhythmic movement, since the individual poi is undergoing internal polyrhythm (for example, one half is stalling while the other half is rotating), but I don't see how that would change the idea of Jon's cycle analysis.

Dealing with spiral wraps, it seems like the only complication would be in dealing with fixed notation, where one would need a way to keep track of the number of times the poi wrap around both hands, and whether they unwrap immediately. Otherwise, why would it be seen as any different than any other wall plane, mono-planar construction?

Thoughts?
MuckySILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA

Posted:
Maybe I'm getting way out of my league here, but shouldn't the focus of notations dealing with wraps include the change in hand/body motions necessary to effect the move? Not just the positioning, as that's covered... But thinking about spiral wrap: Say you spin the poi around your wrist up to the poi head (i.e. completely) - it only takes a twist to get it rotating in the opposite direction - the unwrap. However, say in two wraps, the poi is only halfway around your arm (half the length of the line remains unwrapped) - now you have to turn your arm around and spin in the opposite direction in order to A) keep the poi spinning and B) avoid the poi completing the wrap.

That would address what The Amazing Baz suggests, the number of times the poi wrap around the hands, since long poi = more wraps to complete than short poi, whereas the way your hand moves is not dependent of poi length, except in how long it takes for each step of a given move.

Bouncing Baby Pipe!

astonSILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa

Posted:
Valid point.



I do like this and I get most of it. Just not sure how to apply it for myself yet. smile



But nice concept AlienJon.



Edit: got pre-empted.
EDITED_BY: aston (1212445676)

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


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