• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Expressive movement / costumes and props > Hypothetical Festival of Expressive Movement?

Login/Join to Participate

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Hey All,

If you could go to a festival where the main focus were dance and movement - what kinds of things would you like to learn?

Also - would it be worth it to you to pay a lot more to have professional teachers, or would you rather keep it cheap and grassroots (ie the people that come, teach, rather than paying professionals to come to teach?)

The difference in price, would probly be quite significant. (eg $30 vs $150).

?


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete Topic

squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted:How about Tai Chi set to music at 78 rpms?

or Debbie Gibson teaching the Electric Slide.... with staff!

and on a serious note: liquid dancing basics.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

Delete

Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Ooooo - i'm intrigued smile

I'd go for a 50/50 mix... ish.
Somethings, i think it's really worth getting a pro into teach - partly for insurance reasons depending on what's being taught; breakdancing/acrobalance for example can cause injury if done badly.
But also there's always the risk of people who can do, but can't teach. Martial arts is a good example of this, especially if you're explaining the "why" not just the "how".
I'd also say that more-so for dance (as opposed to prop stuff), a good standard teacher is essential. It's not hugely inspiring to see somene dancing/moving ok-ish, not brilliantly and then try and teach - for example mime or robot can look pretty rubbish until it's done really well.

At Play we had a good mix - not 50/50 mind you. Most workshops were run by people at the festival, a few were taught by professionals - though no one was paid to just run workshops, it was more a case of the performers were asked to teach as well smile

As to what to learn;
breaking, popping, locking, liquid are always going to be popular.
Swing, salsa, tango likewise - nice high-energy dance styles, each with a hint of "cool" about them.
Slightly more rigid forms; ballet, ballroom might be interesting but don't hold much interest to me personally...
Then you can move on to more movement/body things like yoga, tai-chi (or any other martial art really), caporera (no idea about spelling that...).
Performance arts - Mime, robot are good too.
And of course poi, staff, fans, CJ, palms, chi-balls etc are good for teaching basics and movement as oppsode to something like juggling (for beginners at any rate).

The deciding point would be why people want to learn... Personally i'm interested in stuff I can blend with what I already do on a performance level, and want to learn. e.g. liquid/robot with contact juggling, capoeriaiaiaia with staff/clubs.
My main interest is in foot, leg and body work as this frees up my arms for poi/staff/juggling. For more advanced stuff though you can start freeing up your upper-body and arms too.

Price - as you say, depends on how many pro's you've got in... Play was nice in this respect as the Pro's were already booked to perform and they're all so lovely they're happy to teach too - so you can try this approach ("We'll pay you to perform, but erm... as you're coming, would you mind teaching?")

So - where and when? (and do you want a poi teacher?) wink


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Other interesting forms:
Bhangra/Bollywood - There's 100's of styles of Indian dance, but the mainstream stuff is kinda generic.
Pole-dancing - Not just for the ladies smile
Traditional Poi

You could easily do a festival of dance from around the world, but it might be worth picking and choosing
Scottish Highland stuff, morris dancing, irish riverdance, maypole just from the UK.
Again, it depends on whether it's a celebration of dance/movement in all it's form, or whether it's mostly workshop based...


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

Posted:Traditional Poi would be a treat. As for what I've seen of it, it looks much more different than I first expected.

"I don't know what you are talking about"

"Cardinal!!! Poke her... with the SOFT CUSIONS!!!!"

"Its not working my lord!"

"Have you got all of the stuffing on one end?!"

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Hey Josh, have you ever heard of the MotionFest we had/have here in the US? (it got so big they actually stopped holding it and now hold a series of events throughout the year called "mini-fest")

You might want to look into it for ideas. It is geared specifically for object manipulation performers and offers ZERO object manipulation classes.

There is a group yoga warm up.
Physical motion classes from pro dance instructors.
Physical characterization classes from pro clowns and coaches.
It just goes on and on.

They sussed out people who do what we do so that the motion is directly related.

I've also taught at such events (though not at the m-fests, they get CDS and RB&B caliber instructors).

If you are offering this to this community, then I am assuming this is not a dance/movement conference and instead the intention is to explore forms of movement to blend with exsisting tools, yes? In that case, finding pros who already do this is best. There is really nothing worse than to sign up and pay for workshops that don't help you also learn how to transition such things into your exsisting performance.

So, I'm thinking that between what Durbs has posted and what I am thinking I can safely say that your initial post is pretty vague.
Who is your target audience?
What do you want to achieve with it?

That will help determine answers...and direction. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted: Written by: Pele


Hey Josh, have you ever heard of the MotionFest we had/have here in the US?




nope - but I'll have a look. Theres already something like what I'm talking about here in Oz, its called Stamping Ground but their website is woefully out of date.

 Written by: Pele



Who is your target audience?
What do you want to achieve with it?

That will help determine answers...and direction. wink



Target Audience - twirling and circus people (people from HOP?)

Achieve? More *good* dance and movement in twirling and circus people's lives and performance.

This is a hypothetical festival. Please dont make me do it, Kate'll kill me smile

It kinda popped into my mind because my mum watched a friend of mine teaching rumba to a guy in an impromptue workshop at Common Ground, and said that she thought my friend was a great teacher and could probly teach a heap of different styles of dance.

My sisters perform bollywood belly dance style and also ran a workshop at CG - but said they could have used more time etc etc Yoga is also central to CG, and we had a capoeira workshop put on by my instructor Chan too.

Add to that my realisation the other day that everything I do for fun relates to dance and music...and the idea of a Festival of Movement popped into my head.

But as I said - CG nearly breaks our brains, and takes a chunk out of our time in the year, so doing another festival on top wouldnt work without something significant changing.


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:id like to learn contact dance...

thats about all the input i have at this point in the morning smile

hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

Delete

ElectricBlue
GOLD Member since Feb 2002

ElectricBlue

Now with extra strawberries
Location: Canberra

Total posts: 810
Posted:contact dance is so fun.
I did a little work shop with some rad ladys at the tassie circus fest.
anywho, that is all


I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: Pyrolific


But as I said - CG nearly breaks our brains, and takes a chunk out of our time in the year, so doing another festival on top wouldnt work without something significant changing.



So then why not see if you can get a couple more peeps together and piggy back it to CG? It seems like there is more than enough interest. It would def take a commitment on the part of people other than you and Katinca for certain tho.

Good luck!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by:

Target Audience - twirling and circus people (people from HOP?)



Achieve? More *good* dance and movement in twirling and circus people's lives and performance.





I have something to say on this subject! (sorry.)



I think (it is entirely my own opinion that, and you don't have to agree with it) that manipulation and dance are very different things, and that it is quite hard to integrate them.



You can let the legs do some dance while the arms arm manipulating and never the two shall meet... or you can bastardise some movement form to fit it to your juggling without concern for the original motivations of the movement style, or the requirements of the manipulation.



I personally don't think giving traditional style dance classes to manipulators would do any good. I have been to some dance classes now, and usually they're concerned with dance... as a sequence of movements... Maybe they're just being harsh, but there was no concern paid to the quality of the movements people were doing, or letting them become accustomed to them, or train them on their own so they could understand them properly. I think these are the things that manipulators appreciate, and would want to learn, how to move just 'better' and not just learn a sequence of movements that approximate a dance style.



Things like how to make your arm move through space and look graceful, rather than looking rushed / jerky etc. Or indeed, how to make it look jerky and alien instead of graceful etc. I would say that's far more useful than learning bollywood and then trying to juggle on top of it.



When I think of the 'best' dance based jugglers, I don't think they have chosen a dance style and stuck to it, i think they have just added movements that 'fit' and look beautiful / graceful / in character... Victor Kee's act certainly isn't based on a traditional movement style, unless it's one I don't know.



The best workshops I have been to on integrating manipulation and movement have been by very long term manipulators who have obviously done a lot of dance training but have also just cut out the bullshit and got down to the core of movement and how it works with an object outside your body, rather than your body itself, as well as creating frameworks to understand movement, frameworks that are easy for manipulators to understand.



So in my ideal, make dancers out of manipulators festival, I would have a few dance rooms, fully mirrored on one side, nice slidey floors, and a video camera set-up for when you can't see yourself in the mirror. Then you get to spend all day in that room, all by yourself, except for helpful manipulation tutors that you could ask questions of and get to review your work-in-progress. There would also be professional dance and movement tutors on hand as well, and an extensive library of dance, movement, manipulation and art videos for inspiration. And after a week, you would get a chance to show your new work in front of the other festival goers.



Obviously, a whole dance studio to oneself would be a bit much. So I think what would be more realistic is a few dance studios, that each person gets solo access to, maybe 3 times in the week. for a couple of hours a pop. then they get to work in other studios with 3-4 people in total... and there's also a big, traditional juggling style hall for practise at other times... and other areas for workshops and such like. As well as the other bits and bobs...



I personally would be joyous if I could get access to a dance studio for a whole week. It would make be weak at the knees... and probably be all I needed to create a new routine.



And I would pay the higher price for it too. and the flight to australia. smile



But that's just me trying to make my views semi-clear, if they aren't feel free to correct me... I usually need it.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

Delete

Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Hmmm... I see where you're coming from.
In touched vaguely on it - i personally like to learn the footwork aspects of various things to blend with poi, but I wouldn't consider this blending poi and gliding - i'm doing both at the same time (poorly wink ).
Hell, i even teach gliding/moonwalking workshops at festivals - but not liquid/robot or anything else I do at a mediocre level. This is because I know the theory of gliding, I know some variations and once people have these they can go and practise and develop.

I strongly agree with you about teaching set pieces and calling that teaching xxxxx-style of dance. Like I said, it's more the "why/what" as opposed to the "how". What characterises a certain form of dance as opposed to "here's a compressed version for you to learn" - not only do you not gain an understanding, you end up with everyone using the same moves.
Teach the theory and basics and let people go away to think - Which is where I think the pro-teachers wil be far superior to have-a-go enthusiasts.


And yes, mirrors would be a near-essential.

I feel dirty agreeing with Meg


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:mcp, I understand your point however in order to understand how to put the two together, how to smoothe things out, how to make them more angular, to get the effects you want, then the comprehension of body mechanics that comes from movement instructors is key.
Victor Kee has a background in ballet and break/liquid dance, and they are easily visible in his performance styles.
Learning proper movement helps to keep one from hurting themselves and learning from a wide array also allows us to experiment with things that we may never think of standing alone in front of a mirror.
I think you'll find that most people wouldn't progress that way at all.
I also completely disagree with you. I do bellydance which translates perfectly to poi. In fact, a veil pass, a candle pass, and several sword moves in bd require the exact same handwork as moves in poi. It also translates well with african dance, flamenco, salsa, tai chi. Many martial arts movements are not so different either.
Dance and manipulation are very different but they are not hard to integrate at all.

Durbs, I completely agree with teaching basics instead of full on routines however...teaching basics *in* a routine, and making it known that these are basics, allows a practise regime to strengthen those skills.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:mmm interesting points from all.

I guess it could all be combined.

I would have thought someone woudl have requested a professional choreo teacher! smile

I see both sides of the coin - but I think I side more with Pele in terms of the utility of learning different set pieces and can illustrate it thus;

I did a type of Karate for a number of years, and if someone asked me to teach something to a group of object manipulators in an hour or two I'd have to choose between teaching them a couple of techniques really well - eg how to do a good reverse punch, a good side kick and a good roundhouse, or I could teach them a Kata / Form.

Now even if I managed to teach the three techniques really well, I cant see them being very useful in object manipulation. On the other hand teaching a Kata could potentially provide a whole new way of doing stick, or poi that has a very different emphasis than what you might ordinarily do.

I think it could be the same for BD - you could learn a shimmy (perhaps) but if you just stick it in a normal poi routine...well it might look well just stuck in. but if you learned a set piece, you might learn enough for BD to influence the whole way you twirl, and thus it could become part of how you twirl.

Interesting discussion people! smile


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, this festival actually exists in Australia - stamping ground. mostly aimed at youths, but not entirely (i went two years ago). you couldn't just overrun it, but you should go this year, josh, if you want to create your festival.

finding myself in disagreement with meg and durbs for the second time in as many days, and agreeing with pele ( eek ) for the most part.

megs festival is ideal for people who want to perform, but doesn't really fit the criteria for a festival... and unfortunately, your average spinner, given a mirror, will stand there and stare at the patterns they are making, not use it fruitfully to create dance routines. personally i think your blueprint is fantastic, but it's not for a festival, it is a week long creation programme (to which i would go).

the reason dance classes start with teaching sequences is that it is only in this way that you get comfortable enough with the movement in order to refine them. you don't expect to teach a noob a perfect halo roll with body position and other hand focus in their first lesson - you focus on getting the movement good enough to then teach them how to make it beautiful! in an ideal world they would happen together, but it doesn't...

most dance lessons are a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge long process where:

the first few are just about learning a sequence or two to make you feel like you are able to do it, and want to come back and learn some more

the next many are about 'nailing' ( ubblol ) those sequences, learning a bit of theory about why they work and how you can make them more refined, starting to learn a few things you can use to spice them up, learning a few more sequences

by now you should have some beginnings of understanding of what looks good and why, and how to start being a little more individual.

of course you cannot convey all this in one workshop at a festival, but how else would you start? think about it - the best way, by far, to learn a concept is by having a movement you can apply it to. otherwise an entirely abstract workshop is on the cards.

if the festival can (like stamping ground) be over a long period of time, then you have the scope for people to start getting an insight into the way they can use whichever style they have been learning in relation to their prop. and this is why you need professional teachers, (agreeing on this one smile ) - both dance and manipulation professionals, not amateurs - it is hard to create a sustained, quality programme unless you have that sort of experience.

pele, i think you have misunderstood meg on one point - she certainly didn't say 'dance does not translate to spinning', she said that the best dancey manipulators haven't taken a single style and made it how they spin. but yes, victor kee has a seriously high level ballet/contemporary background, and it shows....

unfortunately i think belly dance is the weakest translation to spinning for exactly the reason it works for Pele shrug - the movements are frequently the same. for me, a good integration of manipulation and dance are when you take a style that would not normally be associated with these movements and integrate them smoothly. i also don't really like flesh based spinning, (which is why the COL preview filled me with some dread ubblol ) which should be irrelevant - personally i can appreciate belly dancing for its skill, but unfortunately most people just see a sexy lady....and so i would rather watch belly dancing and spinning by themselves, not put together.

anyway... not really going anywhere any more......

ubblol

good luck, josh smile


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:pele: Yeah I understand that movement instructors are extremely good at teaching movement, but that doesn't mean they have any clue about integrating that with manipulation. For them tutoring a juggler would probably be an equal learning experience on both sides.



Victor kee might have a background in ballet, but at times he just can't use it. If you balance a ball on your inner elbow, then you've broken the balletic line, you should have your elbow turned out after all. The constraints of manipulation force out the constraints of the dance. You can't mime beating someone up in b-boy uprock, while doing backcrosses, you don't have the arms to do it, and you lose the meaning of the dance. Yeah sure you can use movements from the dance, but really what is the point if you're just taking a movement style because it's cool, ripping out it's expressive and emotional content and then doing it badly, because you don't have ten years of dance training? You HAVE to 'take' aspects of dance and then modify them for manipulation, or the other way around.



Meanwhile, african, especially, flamenco, b-boying, salsa, tai chi and all martial arts have a fundamental reason for most of their movements. Manipulators usually have to entirely ignore that. They aren't doing a ritual dance, they aren't doing a partner dance, they aren't defending their lives, they aren't battling another krew.



I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity, so yeah, I would rather learn two fundamental movements of tai-chi, and all the meaning and theory and breathing of them, and be able to do them right, than a 48 step form. If I know why I'm doing something, and how to do it right, then even if I don't know the details of the further advanced movements, I can at least perform them gracefully and with the correct technique. What's the point in learning a 48 step form if you aren't doing any of it right?



It's fine for beginners who don't have the motivation to go so slowly, but if you have any level of concentration whatsoever, you should be able to appreciate the benefits of learning things correctly and slowly.



"I think you'll find that most people wouldn't progress that way at all."



Well most people might not, but happily we're not dealing with most people. We're dealing with people that are already manipulators are already interested in dance and have maybe done some of it before. I'm thinking about people that want to develop new material and new routines. I take it for granted that they already have a routine, and therefore know the steps of making one. But I guess I'm expecting a higher level of manipulator than you.



For instance you might see a contemporary dancer and see how effortlessly they travel across the stage, but you can't teach that effortlessness to someone by teaching them a contemporary dance routine. You have to teach them posture, spatial awareness, fluidity of movement, balance, sensitivity to their weight and the shapes they're making and probably many other things, as well as a few movements to apply it to, or that help develop different aspects of those basics.



It's like that old saying: "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime."



I would rather teach somebody to move well: fluidly, with control, balance and good posture. Than teach them any particular dance style.



Also I would rather learn this. Most dance classes would get you to that understanding after a couple of years... but is there any reason not to shortcut that process?



Bluecat: yeah, I'm not focusing on noobs. And I probably wouldn't go to a festival full of dance workshops. Unless it had a lot of mirrors and slippy floors. I'm not a fan of pampering noobs, like they're toddlers. If they're not interested in learning properly, what do I care? When you go to university, you don't expect them to make it exciting and interesting all the time, like a hollywood action flick, you expect them to teach you your chosen subject so that you know it real well. (Unless you went to uni, just cos everybody else does or you want a high paying job or you don't know what you want to be, and it's a good way to waste a few years finding out)





Josh: interesting point about the kata. I hear from the good multi-disciplinary martial artists I know, that they don't practise all the many many techniques they know, because they are so many, and too many to keep in mind in an actual fight. Instead they pick the most effective, some strikes, some defenses, some disarming techniques etc, and practise them to get them to an instinctive level, so they aren't paralyzed by choice in a fight, and can execute the chosen techniques extremely well. After all, it's better to win a fight, than demonstrate your mastery of many martial arts. These are martial arts, they have a clear purpose, and aren't 'dance'.



Sorry this was a bit rambling. Too much I wanted to say, and it all got mixed up because people wrote big posts one after another.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

Delete

Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Bluecat - from my second post;

 Written by: Pyrolific


 Written by: Pele


Hey Josh, have you ever heard of the MotionFest we had/have here in the US?




nope - but I'll have a look. Theres already something like what I'm talking about here in Oz, its called Stamping Ground but their website is woefully out of date.





I wouldn't overrun another festival - although from my experience there are plenty of festival organizers out there that don't really consider 'the good of the whole circuit' - Especially in the Trance scene its really common for festivals to be tightly packed around each other to the detriment of all, call it an adversarial model.

Also - I'm not about to put on another festival, I'd have to cancel CG to do it - and I dont think I will as most people seem to have a really excellent time at CG - and thats what it's all about - the movements are a vehicle to a good quality way of life. I stopped believing in the movements as a end in themselves about 6 years ago.

ubbidea Perhaps I should build a dance space on our property that people can use for free...hmmm


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Delete

Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Josh you are such a sweetie hug hug

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:Interesting thread, Josh.
Some of the strongest positive feedback I had about 2UberOz was for Asuka's contemporary jazz dance workshop. People liked that it gave them the experience of extensions and other ways of moving than their 'normal'. I will certainly include dance workshops in future events I run. Taught by professionals. (Ya, that's the $120 end of things, not the $30
wink )


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

FireNix
BRONZE Member since Apr 2001

FireNix

old hand
Location: India/Bristol

Total posts: 904
Posted:Can we expect these at Woodford then Gabe - or do you have some more workshops planned.
I for one need PLEANTY of time in advance to try to organise into the schedule
By the way - so I need to book - myself and workshops into the Woodford one now - or...?
SOOO loooking forward to seeing you
Peas


Feel the Flame
Phirenix

Delete

newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: FireNix



I for one need PLEANTY of time in advance to try to organise into the schedule

By the way - so I need to book - myself and workshops into the Woodford one now - or...?

SOOO loooking forward to seeing you

Peas





Eh?

Not sure I understanding you? You mean book in to give them?

How about we move over to the Woodford thread Eve started cos if I talk about Woodfordy things there it'll be more... on topic... smile


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete