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Fire_Moose
SILVER Member since May 2007

Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA

Total posts: 3597
Posted:a pretty cool video, really makes you think.





O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs..., United Ki...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:I think the difference between Rougie and PK simply comes down to, pardon the pun, which side of the fence you are on.

It's not particularly fair, I would have thought, to go on to a private property and scrawl some stuff on a private owner's wall. That private owner has to remove/replace the area that's been "damaged"

On the other side of the fence, in certain urban areas, the only way to improve a bland, grey, dull living space is via the medium of graf. These are public buildings, generally there's no "pride" in the living area.

So, in summation, in PK's sense, graf is good because it generally improves an area, if it's an artisitic piece.
However, on Rougie's side, if you have your personal space invaded by a guy with a tin can of paint, especially if its something that you don't like, then it's harmful.

I'll add a little IMHO to that smile

Simply comes down to the difference between private and public property, and the choice/taste of the individual/group using that area.

Skaters and the urbanites want cool graf.
Someone in the country with a nice fence doesn't want "Skazz woz ere 9t7" scrawled on their back fence...


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:the question was, was your property vandalised ie tagged or some thing derogatory/hateful painted or did some graf writer actually do a piece? thus so far you haven't answered that question.

Ignore the wood type... I understand there are differences in fence types... My garden fence in made of wood, some parts are bricked too, but that is irrelevant... just Pine wood isn't the sort of wood that we would use as an out door fence.

That is plain and simple as I can be.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: =Flashpoint=



Skaters and the urbanites want cool graf.

Someone in the country with a nice fence doesn't want "Skazz woz ere 9t7" scrawled on their back fence...



I don't reckon hating the "Skazz woz ere 9t7" kind of graffiti's limited to people in the country.



 Written by: PK



the question was, was your property vandalised ie tagged or some thing derogatory/hateful painted or did some graf writer actually do a piece? thus so far you haven't answered that question.





To a lot of people there'd be no distinction between tagging and a full piece - it's all just vandalism.

I can see their point - if I'd bought a fence and decided I wanted it orange so painted it, only to have someone else come and repaint it, I'd be mightily annoyed. Whether the fence now has a stylised urban landscape, a load of scrawled names or even if someone's painted the whole thing white doesn't make any difference to me - it's no longer an orange fence.



I remember watching something on the tv about graffiti a while ago - it had the presenters interviewing some taggers and asking why they did it.

Near the end they got duplicates of the taggers' most valued possessions and covered them in spray paint to see what reaction they'd get - they all looked as though they were just about to start crying and/or attack the presenter.

Quite why they're ok with doing that to other people's property when they're not prepared to accept it done to theirs I don't know.

EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1192469797)


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Some scrawls something across my car/fence/child/house/school its vandalism no matter how artistic it is.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs..., United Ki...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:Point taken Bov.
wink


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted: Written by: PK_


victims of Graffiti Writers doing a throw-up or piece... or did some one just vandal some thing with paint?..

There are differences.



Those of us who have had our property painted without our permission dont have the need to define the form in which they did it. Its graffiti and vandalism. What artform is was done in is irrelevant to me.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:Shame.

I so see it with different eyes.

But what bugs me out is how come some one that I value an opinion from in most cases can avoid my question... I like to see the whole picture before making my opinion and I certainly can not do so thus far.

Shame.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:If you can accept vandalism to you and yours property without condemnation or crankiness you are a more accepting person than me.

I think Rouge feels she has answered the questions raised.

Rouges comment is based on her feelings about something done to her property without permission and no matter how pretty, it is its vandalism. The fact the owners have to either replace the whole fence or repaint the whole thing is an unwanted expense.



I like alot of urban art or whatever the term is and it has its place. I even like it on abandoned buildings instead of grey expanse (but that has no direct impact on me). I see the attraction of the challenge of tagging difficult to get places. But to condone unauthorised work on the neighbourhood, active businesses, private property is not acceptable to me. No matter what the art form.

EDITED_BY: Gnor (1192671296)


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted: Written by: Gnor


I think Rouge feels she has answered the questions raised.
If your Lambretta gets painted in the carpark, will you embrace it. When your childs school gets done and funds better spent on education have to be used to paint over it is everyone happy.



I don't feel like she did.. but then thats my opinion being as though I asked the question and she ignores it.

As for my Lambretta.. not like that would ever get left any where for the simple fact that it has no locks on it... but yes I get your point Gnor.

As for my sons school!, you really should take a look inside Italian schools... full of Graffiti all over the out side walls, all over the walls inside.. they honestly don't give a toss there so I'm sure that they will carry on with their business as normal.

Just my two cents... I like Graff, I've done graff and I have done Graff exhibits... and I still paint.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:I actually went back and edited my post as I feel many of my posts are getting negative and attacking and I dont like that in myself, not quick enough in editing. Glad you took it ok. Thanks.



Graffiti in public places, there is a much featured peice of graffiti in a church done by a viking a 1000 years ago. Maybe the Italians have been tolerant of graffiti a long time. Dont know enough about schooling in Europe to comment but I wonder if they have simply given up in those schools on controlling graffiti. If private schools have the same problems or if they keep removing it. I get the impression that Rome especially has a huge problem with defacing of monuments, the sacking of Rome hasnt finished appareantly.



One kid off his trolley came down to one of our spin meets and started drawing on the bins there. Artisitc work to me but not acceptable as far as I am concerned. Selfishly it threatens our meet as if the council sees it associated with us they can boot us. Aesthetically it clashes with the park, finacially it means being removed and where do you draw the line with whats acceptable.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Despite the fact that you seem to be the only person in here who can't understand the answer I gave you - Hypothetically, what would you have said if I said said:

a) my fence was tagged
b) my fence had a "piece" done on it?

And please tell me how either one of them is less vandalism than the other when it is done on private property.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


Despite the fact that you seem to be the only person in here who can't understand the answer I gave you - Hypothetically, what would you have said if I said said:

a) my fence was tagged
b) my fence had a "piece" done on it?

And please tell me how either one of them is less vandalism than the other when it is done on private property.



rolleyes

I'm gonna leave it here and walk away.

Hypothetically? why would I make a "Hypothetical" answer?, if you fully explained your reply to the original question then I would have given you a "real answer".



hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:And if you hadn't ignored my reply to the original question then none of this would have happened.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur, USA

Total posts: 382
Posted:Hmm... how to interpret both sides of this?


Vandalism is, and has been, easily defined. A "piece", yes, is a form of vandalism, but one that carries an inherent aesthetic value based upon the thoughtfulness put into by the creator of said piece.

Fine Art on the cutting edge has almost invariably been offensive and shunned as an unacceptable means of communication. Graf Pieces are no different.

While Monet, Renoir, and their contemporaries saw an aesthetic value to their work, the general populace saw them as not simply ugly, but an aggressive offense meant to attack the values of the day.

I believe that what PK is attempting to express is such a similar attitude. That is why, to him if not others, there really IS an important need to assess the purpose of the vandalism that Rouge is describing. Because it may contain an essence of truth behind it.

Personally, I love Bovril's post. It highlights a key factor of pride in possession. While walls, schools, etc may not be viewed by PK's culture as having a value needing protection from vandalism (be it gang tags or artistic murals), individuals do place ownership on various things. Where one person may not place high value on a fence, another might.

Its not about valuing the same things. Its about understanding and respecting a person's right to value different things.

A perfect example: kids get shot for trying to tag or bomb over someone else's piece. Especially if its a piece by a rival group. There is very little that is more offensive to a tagger than to disrespect their art. Scribble a crown over another's work and you are claiming authority over them. Get ready for physical encounters.

But seriously. It seems the conversation has degenerated into semantics over one particular example rather than taking on the original subject as a whole.


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted:ditto what he said.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted:A conversation on HoP degenerating into an argument over semantics? Surely not... rolleyes

Actually, this thread seems to be the opposite of this other one. Interesting how opinions vary according to exactly what property is being disrespected really... shrug


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:The issue with graffiti is not what it is as an art form its where it is. If Monet and Renoir painted the sides of buildings as a statement I would have the same issue. If they paint a 10 foot canvas and place it on a wall how is that the same as graffiti.
If these graffiti artists paint their own property thats just fine.


Damage/defacing is the issue with graffiti. If the possessor of the property doesnt like it, it costs to fix it, if it can be fixed to be as before.
People walking on the grass...rubbishing the grass...dropping ciggie butts on the grass, damaging it, its the same issue in my book.
Brings me to another beef...cigarette butts. People who wouldnt normally drop rubbish, leave icky butts.Im not talking central London where there are no bins Im talking lawns, footpaths and private yards. Or put them out in pot plants like thats acceptable. mad2


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted: Written by: Gnor


Im not talking central London where there are no bins



For good cause is that! for the same reasons there ar e no bins in Train stations and airports.

But I don't think comparing Green Issues to Graffiti is really a comparison.. they just two things that piss you off.... but I think that the green issues so far out weigh the global clean up operations compared to just painting over or other cleaning solutions to graffiti... that is so far off the $$$$ comparison.

So Gnor... if you went to the park, would you let your kids play on the grass and ruin the grass for the other publicans?. (just a question wink )


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:The park.. a place to play provided by tax payers money...hmm..yes we do go there and play on the grass.
Yah. The same public park that I spend time picking up the bottles and rubbish from when we go. The lawn on someones private property though is not fair game to play on. Nor are the flower gardens at the park. Same as the walls of that private or public place is not fair game to drawn on without permission.
Bins....
We have bins at trainstations....
and parks....When in London many Austrlains carry their rubbish till they get home or find a bin. Its just too ingrained not to litter.

 Written by:

But I don't think comparing Green Issues to Graffiti is really a comparison..



Littering and graffiti for me are both about respect for property so are closely linked. if you are talking global greenness maybe its not as relevant but local...for me is relevant.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted: Written by: Gnor


We have bins at trainstations....
and parks....When in London many Austrlains carry their rubbish till they get home or find a bin. Its just too ingrained not to litter.



Bins were removed a long long time ago, due to the IRA wink ... hey it's a long way back to Australia with some rubbish wink

I agree it is out of respect for property.

We have a field where we go Kite Boarding, I'm there almost every day, it's on the edge of town near an industrial estate where the Triumph Factory is just across the road from the field, slowly all of the surrounding land is being housed on frown (i used to play in these fields when I was a child now all thos fields are housed on).

So, it is next to a council estate where some of those housings are still in schemes... I don't actually have any respect for the land in which we tend to carve up with our boards, ok it is very free of litter and just yesterday the grass was cut and there were council litter pickers walking around the edge of the field and children's play area... that is ok, they do this in all of our public parks. Well this field is well kept, but I have no qualms about ripping up the grass, for the simple fact that it is what they covered up by putting grass on top of it, now this is the most ideal place for us to fly, but in all honesty, you could never know what could happen, I've heard of people cutting themselves and wounds going septic just from taking a fall from their board on to the grass... (talking that we can be doing 20mph +) . But then thats probably whats going to happen on any field that was once a land fill site. rolleyes

So currently they are planning to put in a skate park there too and move the children's play area.. I wonder how long it would take the local youth to Vandalise the skate park when it gets built... shame it will take away part of our flying area which isn't the largest of places *sigh*.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:See thats crazy that you say have no respect for an area that you can use, when it sounds like you have few areas like that around. Just because it used to be a waste dump doesnt mean now that its been rehabiltated it should be abused, no matter if the reason is commercial. If your sport is perceived to lack respect for the land why would it be kept for that purpose. If the land getting ripped has no effect on other users its not a problem. If fellow kite people leave huge amounts of rubbish and damage property do you talk to them? If not why not? Will you just happily find a new spot and not care that twats have lost the spot for you. If other kite users deliberately damage other peoples kites is that ok? I cant see kites being cheap. I get cranky at others damaging our spinning spot and not respecting toys when we are there as I dont want to have to find a new spot due to others selfishness or replace toys that I bring to share.

I imagine though that the kiters get a fair audience. Which brings its own set of issues.

We have had problems here with 4WD spots. People abusing them gets them closed and so the people doing the right thing get punished.

You can go septic from falling on the ground and any thing has some risk. I imagine most of you take it as an acceotable risk the rubbish, the cans and the bottles rather than saying the area should be cleaned up by someone else .Here there are so many areas that can be used for that sort of sport. Kite surfing has taken off hugely here in recent years.
Loss of parkland is an issue in most urban cultures including here. The bushland that surrounds our city is being pushed outwards and kids dont play in the "non civilised" areas like we did as kids. We wrap our kids up to protect them. At the age my kids are I left at sunrise and come home in the dark on weekends and would do 30-100km on a day. Now my kids have to take a mobile and call in regularly.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Why don't Londerners have bins??

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:In central London the IRA ( I think) started putting bombs in them. So the British Museum for example has no bins outside it. They have lots of street cleaners instead.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4993
Posted: Written by: PK_



Bins were removed a long long time ago, due to the IRA




smile prety much most of the UK is the same... they had a nation wide campaign of bin removal... though these lands have been quiet some time now other than from other nations bombers of a different nature in recent years.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Crazy!!

But bombs could just as easily be in an abandoned backpack...

But I guess it increases employment... though I can't bring myself to litter. It feels so wrong!


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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:I dont remember a lack of bins other than central London but you would know more than me there... rolleyes

Same Natasqi, its just not right.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

Page: 12

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