Forums > Social Discussion > UN native rights declaration finally passes, but...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Article in Canadian media



Basically what it says is that



 Written by: CBC news

the non-binding declaration, which sets out global human rights standards for indigenous populations, was easily approved Thursday by the UN General Assembly in New York with only Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia dissenting. Eleven countries abstained.



Article 26 of the UN declaration states: Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.



McNee said the provision is overly broad, unclear and capable of a wide variety of interpretations that could lead to the reopening of previously settled land claims and existing treaties.





What do you think?



Personally this is an issue that affects the "new world" more than the "old world". Personally I think that native tribes should at least get compensated for the loss of their land and receive a fair share of the profits, drawn from their land, but then I am not much affected by this...



I personally think that it IS an embarrassment to the governments of dissenting countries, as many of them stand in front row when it comes to criticise and point their finger at human rights violations. It appears as if this is only the case as long as they are not affected.



There are shades of grey in this, no doubt.



Please keep in mind that this is a sensitive topic. If you decide to step into it and participate in the discussion, please keep it as friendly and on topic as possible.



If you take (personal) offence in certain wordings, please verify whether it was meant as an (personal) insult BEFORE you then NOTIFY either the person, the mods or myself. Please do NOT respond in the (same) way and derail the thread.



It is clearly an online discussion and therefore wordings can get misunderstood - bear that in mind. Overly sarcastic or ironic posts might hurt somebody elses feelings - especially if not CLEARLY marked as such ( [ironic:] ....)



Also if you decide to participate, please don't just throw words of mouth at us, but try to enable us to verify (by posting supporting links) - excluded is personal experience.



Thanks for taking the time to read this smile

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1191487247)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by: Stone


This is certainly obvious in the United States, where people still feel the need to carry guns because they live with the collective fear of slave and Indian uprisings of the past.



Are you sure? (and I know i stopped reading that thread cos it was going in circles but) I didn't think any of the pro-gun people in the gun laws thread wanted guns because they feared a slave or indian uprising! Minorities aren't majorities!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Rogue, I thought we were talking about collective guilt and collective fear. To me, its a obvious example of how the past mistreatment of human beings is still present in the psyche today. Call it Karma if you will.

The USA was the only western country to historically make extensive use of slaves. Descendants of slave owners inherit the family attitude of fear of blacks.

The USA was the only western country that historically "recently" killed large numbers of indigenous people. Descendants of pioneers inherit the paranoia of those involved in the massacres.

As far as Australia goes, we seem to be in denial about what we did. Perhaps, the effects of our misdeeds havent become a part of our collective guilt because we still seem to be treating Aborigionals in the same way as we have for the last 200 years. But for sure, the effects of our past will have an impact on our future. At one time we would have been the minority, so the opportunity for us is to make the future bright for all Australians.




wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Not completely on topic but interesting statement follows. This is a part of a job application for a liason officer.

Aboriginality is considered essential for this position under section 50(d) of the Western Australian Equal Opportunity Act.

So under equal oppurtunity not everyone is entitled to apply.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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SilentSlide
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

SilentSlide

Member
Location: Adelaide, United Kingdom

Total posts: 7
Posted: Written by: Stone


A simple Im sorry by John Howard would have made a tremendous difference to the self esteem of a race of human beings.



Maybe, but I don't have anything to apologise for, neither does John Howard (as far as I know, and in the context of this issue). Plus saying "I'm sorry" has further implications, by apologising you are admitting that you have done something wrong, and thus should make amends. Apologising would only exasperate the issue, unless you are willing to accompany it with some form of compensation, which in my opinion shouldn't be given.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Interesting position, SiSl. Stolen generation, genocide, deprivation of territory, denial of civil rights... all this is "right"? umm wink

Nobody is saying that you or John Howard did anything wrong personally (where we could discuss the latter). John Howard is the representative of an elected Australian government though. "J'excuse - j'accuse" (who excuses himself accuses himself) - IMO that is not always the case. But I understand that this position, plus what you mention about "further amends" is keeping him from saying sorry.

Yet these "further amends" are provided as we speak. Why then, if nobody did anything wrong in the first place? This is antithetic... White man is speaking with snake tongue... wink

"So under equal opportunity not everyone is entitled to apply." - you know the result of mating an ox with a moron? It's an oxymoron... wink

Thanks for the support, Stone. hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Have I now sufficiently proven to you that reparation after (inter)national law is not exclusively beheld for the victims, but also for their families and children? That it is not exclusively an "insurance issue", but one of society and the state as well?

'Cause basically these are essential aspects of the topic to start with. If we can't agree on this one, why talking in circles?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:First off:

 Written by:

This is certainly obvious in the United States, where people still feel the need to carry guns because they live with the collective fear of slave and Indian uprisings of the past.



Whiskey Tango Foxtrot umm


I think the answer to whether or not we *should* be paying reparations needs to be answered before the discussion can progress much further FireTom, as it is an important part of the whole concept.

As bad as it sounds, everything can't be PC all the time in the world. Bad things have happened to people, should we stop them from happening again? Of course we should. But should we go back to 'right' the wrongs of long dead ancestors and give compensation to people who were not directly effected by the crimes? I don't believe so.

More importantly, Ex post facto laws are by in large illegal according to our Federal laws and our constitution. While that doesn't directly apply to this I think the concept should carry through, that you can't be charged with a crime due to a change in law (or creation of a new law) if the crime was not a 'crime' when it was committed.

In other words new laws have no bearing on past actions.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I wanted to say that...but I thought that it would be taken wrong and I was too busy today to get in a heated discussion.

I didn't do anything, no one did anything to me. I'm not giving anything and not taking anything.

In the US, many of us are on both sides of the line. Reparations, here, IMO, are a waste of money. Lets spend the money on current problems keeping in mind how we did get here


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Fire Tom, great topic. Though, I'm rather surprised by narrow minded and prejudiced attitudes expressed by the Australians. I thought, as a country, we had moved beyond that.



Nothing to apologise for SilentSide? How about destroying a civilization and turning them into a race of lazy drunken slobs. Not to mention the genocide and the pox.

Admitting we have done something wrong, and we have thats unarguable - would create a the space for healing so we can all move on. Otherwise we keep repeating the same mistakes, and become willing participants in other atrocities like the invasion of Iraq. In the end, all you argument is really saying is that you are more worried by the though of paying compensation, than that of the survival of a race of human beings.

Lurch, you said of course we should stop bad things happen again, so instead of making up crappy excuses and hiding behind the law, just do it.

I also take it Lurch that while you are not prepared to give compensation for the wrongs of long dead ancestors, you do think it is right to compensated people who are directly effected by these crimes against humanity. Therefore, you would have no objection to compensating the Iraqi people for the injustice metered out to them by the US and other governments.

frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay first of all - it is a sensitive topic, I have been / am aware of that. Please forgive me for touching another weak spot. I am reconsidering my IP (initial post) and might adjust it accordingly.

Let's all keep it friendly.

That said, please try not to take offence and any/everything personal. For example SilentSlide - I am in no ways criticising you personally, not even the opinion you posted. I just assume, that again the wording had potential to get misunderstood.

Same applies to Lurch - at least from my perspective.

One thing I learned from the gun thread: After all this is nothing personal! Therefore, Faith - if you open your post with "I think that it could be taken wrong and I am too busy/sensitive/wse to get drawn in a heated discussion - so please guys, try to keep it down" - I guess we will comply.

I am trying to read EVERY post like that - since the "gun" and the "letting go" threads.

Okay, proceed:

Lurch - IMO Stone is on the right path (note: IMO). Have you followed my link to the article about Bernd Hellingers work? There is truth in it (whereas I am not signing up to all of his theories). Have you followed my links proving that reparations are *not* exclusively limited to insurance companies and compensation is *not* exclusively paid to victims of crimes, but also to their heirs? This is present jurisdiction - even in the US. If you find anything in opposition to what I said and posted, please give me the chance to render it and don't just claim something you can't back up - it weakens your arguments to the very extent of being regarded trolling...

You are (not) answering my question by asking a question - I know the habit. I am not falling for it.

This is not about PC, this is not even about making the planet a Disneyworld. This is about - as Stone said: healing wounds.

I am adding my eMail signature, so you know what I think of money:

 Written by: anonymous

Money can buy a house but not a home.
Money can buy a bed but not sleep.
Money can buy a clock but not time.
Money can buy a book but not knowledge.
Money can buy a position but not respect.
Money can buy company but not a friend.
Money can buy a doctor but not health.
Money can buy blood but not life.
Money can buy sex but not love...
and love seems to be the way...



And according to a prophecy: after all, money can't be eaten.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Stone fair comment about narrowmindedness but being open minded also sets us up for failure as has happened to me and mine enough times to now have reservations and less open mind. How many times do you need to get kicked before you form a negative opinion.

In the last month....my families car was stolen. By people they stopped and helped on the side of the road in an isolated spot who they offered them a bed. They have done this before with stranded people. The people were well dressed and spoken and dark skinned but they treated them the same. They also stole $1000 dollars as well as the car.
My son has been repeatedly physically and verbally abused at school
Going back a bit further.
Kids stole from our letter box
Kids surrounded the house and threw rocks at my husband
Violent sexual assault on a friend
School shut down due to racial viloence
Threatened in car
Sexual approaches on public transport
education sessions shut down to to kids on the roof at school

I can go on and on whats been done to me and mine by a minority group that hasnt been done by any other group. It can be argued that my ancestors made it happen but when the pattern is repeated over the society we live in it doesnt breed tolerance.


I dont want just reparation given, I want the problems here solved. Saying sorry wont help the kids being abused by adults and teenagers who have been abused all their lives.
I want a heakthy whole community (not just white or black or yellow) instead of self destructive. Giving back land and lots of money is not going to solve the problems we have. Its had limited success that I have seen. I want the social security handouts given out the same to all not racially based. Food vouchers, ammenities vouchers and some cash to all who receive benefits.

I dont want reverse discrimination either. Throwing more money at the current problem will fix it how. There needs a nationwide plan decided on and acted on and not sabotaged from within.

The idea of sending the army in to help was a fair one, but not the way it was approached. they were made out as bogeymen before they got there and so it was counter producitve.

I see no plan that can be implemented that wont be sabotaged. Removing alcohol is one step, but is that taking away choices. It isnt effective as all it does is set up a black market in booze. Taking the kids away and educating them ( in whatever, doesnt have to be mainstream, has to help them function wherever they are going to be) so they are literate and aware of life choices is fraught. The cycle is viscious and hard to break out of and if you are in it, can you see a way out of it if it. Do you want to leave the comfort of what you know if you have no selfesteem.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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SilentSlide
SILVER Member since Jun 2007

SilentSlide

Member
Location: Adelaide, United Kingdom

Total posts: 7
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Interesting position, SiSl. Stolen generation, genocide, deprivation of territory, denial of civil rights... all this is "right"?




 Written by: Stone


Nothing to apologise for SilentSide? How about destroying a civilization and turning them into a race of lazy drunken slobs. Not to mention the genocide and the pox.




Sorry you both seem to be misunderstanding me. Yes these things happened and yes thats terrible, but I didn't do them, and just because I'm white doesn't mean I should claim responsiblity for the mistakes of other white men.

 Written by: Stone

I also take it Lurch that while you are not prepared to give compensation for the wrongs of long dead ancestors, you do think it is right to compensated people who are directly effected by these crimes against humanity. Therefore, you would have no objection to compensating the Iraqi people for the injustice metered out to them by the US and other governments.




not directed at me i know, but anywase. I agree. it is right to compensate those directly affected, and the Iraqi people should get compensation.


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:No worries, there are no hard feelings from the gun thread.


 Written by:

Admitting we have done something wrong, and we have thats unarguable - would create a the space for healing so we can all move on. Otherwise we keep repeating the same mistakes, and become willing participants in other atrocities like the invasion of Iraq. In the end, all you argument is really saying is that you are more worried by the though of paying compensation, than that of the survival of a race of human beings.



Healing, and getting money, are two separate things. It disgusts me when people ask for money as retribution for crimes against them. How does money help you heal faster? Why not give the money to organizations that will use it appropriately instead of to the individual with the potential to squander it?

You see the "invasion" of Iraq as an atrocity, that is an entirely different discussion right there, but there is one major difference. We are not occupying Iraq. We have not invaded with the intent of bringing Iraq into our country, they are still sovereign, thus they don't apply to this conversation either.

 Written by:

I also take it Lurch that while you are not prepared to give compensation for the wrongs of long dead ancestors, you do think it is right to compensated people who are directly effected by these crimes against humanity. Therefore, you would have no objection to compensating the Iraqi people for the injustice metered out to them by the US and other governments.



We *are* giving compensation to the Iraqi's we've improved the infrastructure of the country immensely if you think otherwise you haven't done much research behind it.

I wouldn't say that I'm hiding behind crappy excuses and laws, I haven't made any excuses for the actions that came before me. I don't need any. I've got blood on both sides of this debate so don't think for a second I'm one sided on this.

Yes FireTom I read some of your articles, Hellinger is basically talking about group psychology on an even larger scale. I agree that there is probably some truth to what he's saying. (I said by in large in reference to reparations FireTom, I didn't claim facts) Can you find an instance where such payments have been made 4 or 5 generations down? I don't think I'm trolling, everything I've said here has been an opinion and I've always stated it as such.

If it's about healing wounds, why do you want us to throw money at it and then say:

 Written by:


Money can buy a house but not a home.
Money can buy a bed but not sleep.
Money can buy a clock but not time.
Money can buy a book but not knowledge.
Money can buy a position but not respect.
Money can buy company but not a friend.
Money can buy a doctor but not health.
Money can buy blood but not life.
Money can buy sex but not love...
and love seems to be the way...



#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:SilentSlide - I hope I explained myself already in my last post. Besides the Australian society today contains of more than just whites and all hang in there together, when it comes to compensation just alike. Your post was worded with the potential for misunderstanding wink

Lurch and Gnor - I was not talking about money being the one and only solution. Compensation and reparation can be "paid" in various ways, like certain individual programmes, certain sponsoring of 'commercial' ads and PR to raise awareness and heighten the social status of minorities, youth centres for all ethnic groups, sports programmes, land, etc. No controversial positioning on my side. I am certain a lot of youths are subconsciously enjoying their status as a perfect excuse to just rumble.

I am certain that the American native Indians and the Aboriginals are compensated for what happened 2 - 300 years ago, that makes at least 4 generations. How much is one generation to you anyway (in years)? How about Tasmanian Aboriginals?

If the founders of a society or nation do this based upon violence and genocide, the roots of this society are corrupted, just look at Shelbyville wink

Is it really that hard for you, Lurch - to answer my question whether or not I have proven that it is current law to compensate over more than the current, or directly affected generation? smile

I am not taking hard feelings from the gun thread either - but you have a damn bad habit to shoot first and expect us to prove you wrong later. Other than obvious arguments or personal experience - like the ones brought forward by Gnor - if you want to get taken serious in a discussion, provide more than expecting us to simply believe your words.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:There are small advances happening.Things like putting a pool in a community then the entrance is school attendance. So they go to school to go to the pool. The pool means better health as less skin infections. The medical budget for aboriginal health is extremely high. My impression is they as a race evolved for low fat diets with high excercise. Their genetics are killing them off in our society of high fat sugar and booze.
Going to school means being fed so better nutrition.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Gnor, it sounds like you are living in Redfern, Sydney not Perth. If the problems you experience are caused by drugs and alcohol, then you could consider moving (I think we have discussed this before, a few years back). Otherwise, I dont think being open minded sets people up for failure.

I dont mean to sound like a prat, but there may be other things happening in your life that are drawing all this negativity towards you. You have at least two choices: you can blame other people for your misfortunes or you can accept responsibility for the situation and take control.

If the pattern is being repeated then something need to be done to break the pattern. Obviously, throwing money at the problem hasnt done any good. This in many ways has just created a welfare trap. Saying sorry, and acknowledging the hurt and injustice would, imo, go a long way to changing the current situation. Unfortunately, we may never know if this would work, because Howard is unlikely to accept any responsibility.

I like Noel Pearsons approach because it includes welfare reform, empowerment and self determination. The Balkanu Cape York Development Corporation seems to be heading in the right direction. Balkanu is one of five not-for-profit sister organisations guided by the Cape York Agenda that aims to enable the people of Cape York to have the capabilities to choose a life that they have reason to value.


Silent Slide, perhaps you didnt personally commit any atrocities, but you are still part of the process, and profit from past misdeeds. No one is asking you to claim responsibility, what we are asking you to do is take responsibility, as an Australian, for past and present atrocities by helping removing the shadow that haunts all Australians (whether they realise it or not).


Lurch, when are you going to wash the dust from your eyes? You seem to get hung up on money and possessions, when its really about saying we were wrong and accept responsibility for our actions. Anyhow, whats wrong with giving compensation for past misdeeds; it helps ease the conscious on both sides. Some call it sorry money, but its not really about money is it, how could money ever compensate for the atrocities committed against indigenous populations. Furthermore, I dont think its an argument to say dont give money to indigenous people because, in your opinion, you think they might squander it.

I dont think American Imperialism, as evident by the invasion and occupation of Iraq, is that different from this discussion. Who knows how long America will occupy Iraq for, until the oil runs dry perhaps. As far as said compensation. Dont you mean American companies are profiteering by rebuilding infrastructure destroyed by American armed forces.

I think you missed Fire Toms point on money.


peace


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted: Written by: Stone


Even here on HOP people are still trying to sweep the problem under the carpet and blame the Aboriginies for all the problems that the whitefella has caused.




I have seen no posts which I equate to this and am interested who you are talking about.

 Written by: Stone


Personally, Im disgusted with comments that go along the lines of white people dont want to help a race that doesnt want to be helped or Aborigionals are self destructive or you have a race responsible for many problems it seen its hard to feel sympathy.




Personally, I'm disgusted by the people with these views, not those who explain the views of others.

And it's not that they don't WANT to help, it's that they don't know HOW to help because when they've previously helped, bad things have happened.


 Written by: Stone


Isnt it about time we grew up and accepted responsibility for the destruction of Aboriginal culture, which has led to current situation. To me this is more about recognition and acknowledgement than money. A simple Im sorry by John Howard would have made a tremendous difference to the self esteem of a race of human beings. Instead he sent in the army. Nothings changed in 200 years




Many people agree that a sorry is needed. But if I was to put in effort to somehow have an influence into parliamentary decisions, my first 20 odd suggestions would include things about primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc, and wouldn't waste my breath trying to argue for a sorry.. something that has been debated a lot.

I agree that saying sorry is important, but I don't think it's MOST important.


And another questions, should the Australians who migated here after say 1970, should they also feel guilty?


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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Drawing negativity to myself. Im sure there are people who will have a field day with that comment and agree entirely.

Maybe if I lived in Redfern or even Balga or Lockridge the problems may be worse but although we talked about moving we also dont want to be driven from our home also

(nice paralel there hey) ( We might get paid for our home but will get no apology).



If all the disgruntled people move from an area what happens? Does it solve the problems. If I move I will be less judgemental?...no...its .age and personal experience is making me judgemental Im afraid. Exposing me to a tip of the iceberg of the problem simply makes me aware rather than relying on media for an informed winkopinion. I am glad Stone and Tom that you are stronger personalities and can take repeated abuse without being prejudiced. Im glad you care enough as well.



We have lived where we are since 1991. In the past this has given us likely an above average exposure than most people on this site. Not Redfern but not Nedlands either. The problems have actually reduced since they dismantled the fringe dwellers camp due to sexual abuse within it. The same camp denied police access and had teenagers suicide due to its problems.

We are happy in our leafy suburb but it is distressing to experience the negative side of aborignals that we see. Its our personal experiences that form our opinions.

Im glad the government is moving into communities to try help. Working in a laboratory 15 years ago we saw Chlamydia and Gono in children of 4 and 5; victims of sexual abuse within their communities. These were notifiable diseases but the issue wasnt tackled then. Thankfully the government is trying to do something about it. How effective it will be remains to be seen but its a step in the right direction. I imagine it will be more effective in a relativly closed community than a suburban situation.

For the record....

I want a soultion to what I see is a racial problem. I have no solution I can offer.

I see a race that is not assimilating effectively nor keeping its own culture, its lost somewhere between. One of my often voiced fear is we are losing this generation and what happens to the next when the elders who care now are gone. Will this generation step into their role.

.



I agree with Natasquis post entirely. Unfortunately we have a health system that is struggling already.2% of the population already consumes more than 50% of the health budget already. This is skewed by the fact that the patients are remote and renal failure is expensive.

Our education system is falling apart already. We need to get enough people from within the community educated in appropriate skills and teaching to the community. Aboriginal boys learn best traditionally from men. Most teachers are female.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Stone ""Anyhow, whats wrong with giving compensation for past misdeeds; it helps ease the conscious on both sides. Some call it sorry money, but its not really about money is it, how could money ever compensate for the atrocities committed against indigenous populations. Furthermore, I dont think its an argument to say dont give money to indigenous people because, in your opinion, you think they might squander it. ""

Say there's community North WA of... I dunno.. 500 Indigenous Australians.

And you could either give them all $1000 each, or instead, let them appoint community officials to liaise with the government about the health/education infrastructure they would like to be in the town.
The community then selects community members to go and learn how to, plaster, bricklay, teach, heal etc.. then come back to the community and improve it immensely.. build the school, hospital etc.
The community feels a sense of pride and ownership of the new facilities... and the students are more likely to attend...
The teacher and doctors are more likely to stay permanently (than 'whites' who do their term of service (1-2 years) and bugger off, leaving the community feeling betrayed and therefore they never engage with or trust them)

So maybe each Indigenous Ozzie didn't get their own personal compensation, but don't you think this would be for the greater good?

Maybe not.. this could be considered 'paternalistic' etc.


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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Education takes time as the solution to this problem will take time.
Natasquis suggestions show consideration. Do teachers for those communities need 4year degrees or a shorter study that covers more relevant topics and gets the people back in the community as soon as possible. These kids need relevant life skills and a different curriculum approach. Aboriginals are wired differently and learn differently so its not suprising the current system isnt working.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:whoopsie, please darlings keep it friendly and sprinkle a wave and a hug (if you mean it this way)... We've been doing pretty good so far, let's not slip into misinterpretation of wordings wink errm, pleeease smile

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Yah you are right FireTom.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Just to relay a little story about something that has helped a displaced black community in a big way; a few years ago my Auntie set up a drop-in centre in one of Sydney's less affluent suburbs with the aim of it being a place where, particularly, the aboriginal community, but also anyone else who wanted to, could meet up. It had the Man's Place, the Women's Place, a bush tucker garden, the local Woolies donated the bread and cakes that were going out of date that anyone could take, dented tins from the selves were donated and sold at a low price to help run the centre.

It is presently one of the warmest places you'll find anywhere; the elders can show the young ones what they would traditionally eat and give them some idea about their history, but also, the elders run the community which consists of black, islander and white so they get the respect that the present culture doesn't always award them.

I volunteered there for six months when I was unemployed. It's still special to be called "daughter" by the elders; their opinion is that if you're a good person, it doesn't matter what colour you are. Even now I address older koori as "uncle" or "auntie", which they like, coming from a white person.

It's ventures like these which really do foster a sense of community and togetherness which do far more than legal rulings or empty words ever will.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:natasqi, I think you will find that things like primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc, have all been tried in the past, and have not worked. They have not worked because Australians (all who have migrated here) still fail to see Aboriginals as fellow human beings. In many respects, its still us verse them; as is evident from many of the Australian comments expressed in this thread.

If the PM actually showed some leadership and said sorry, then this would be acknowledgement for all the past atrocities. This acknowledgement would be the first step in helping a once great people rebuild their culture. Though, this is probably wasted on someone who doesnt understand compassion for fellow human beings, or the benefits of being able to freely give a bloke the price of a cup of coffee.

frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:There you go, Eera. See this is the kind of programmes that I am (partly) talking about. Apart from giving aid; scholarships; specific programmes for education and qualification; meeting grounds for indigenous ppl and current settlers; public relations programmes; return of vacant, public land...



There is so much what can be done - apart from throwing cash at them - which would help them to gain self esteem and recognition and help the others to feel less guilty.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted: Written by: Stone


natasqi, I think you will find that things like primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc, have all been tried in the past, and have not worked. They have not worked because Australians (all who have migrated here) still fail to see Aboriginals as fellow human beings. In many respects, its still us verse them; as is evident from many of the Australian comments expressed in this thread.




Why? Have you done a survey on this?

Q. Are aboriginals
a) Vermin
b) Human
c) Some weird form of sub-human
d) Some weird alien race from Pluto?

Sarcasm aside, I think you are horribly misinformed in thinking that migrant australians think that aboriginals are less than human. And therefore I'm not even going to bother saying how that therefore cannot be the reason that healthcare et al have not worked.

And just in case any of that minute minority stone is talking about is reading this, the correct answer is b) Human wink


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Rogue, no need to do a survey, just read some of the Australians posts. It seems pretty obvious, that many here dont consider Aboriginals as equals.

You might not agree, but the crux of the discussion seems to more about protecting property than tackling the problem. If people really did respect the Aboriginal community then they would gladly give back what does not belong to them. Instead, we get lame excuses like anyone who is 1/64th Indigenous can claim or Australia's land has been cleared, farmed and most traditional means of subsistence wouldn't be a 'viable' existence or therefore what compensation is owed to them or If one of my children formed a relationship with an aboriginal I would have concerns.

If the correct answer is b), then why arent people prepared to acknowledge that by being prepared to say sorry for all the atrocities committed against fellow human beings.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Apart from the fact that I completely disagree that the people posting on here think that aboriginals are less than human (for the record I take offence at your narrow-mindedness in assuming that I'm so narrow-minded) you have proven my point about taking a minority and extrapolating it to the majority. You are telling us that generalisations are bad and all the while you are making one yourself.

And it's because "sorry" alone will not fix the problem. You can say "sorry" as much as you want, but it is things like Eera's aunt's initiative that will make the difference. You can burn down my house and say "sorry" as much as you like, but it's the arsonist who shows remorse by helping me (Eera's aunt) who I am going to forgive before I forgive the person who only says "sorry."


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Noone denies that they have been hard done by. All you have to look at is Australian political history.

..but for me...

FireTom its getting heated and personal so as much as I have lots more to talk about I will go back to lurking.

EDITED_BY: Gnor (1191245672)


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Actually, I think I might join Gnor.

I'm already offended at certain comments and don't wish to be insulted anymore.

*toddles off*


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Page: 12345

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