Forums > Social Discussion > UN native rights declaration finally passes, but...

Article in Canadian media



Basically what it says is that



 Written by: CBC news

the non-binding declaration, which sets out global human rights standards for indigenous populations, was easily approved Thursday by the UN General Assembly in New York � with only Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia dissenting. Eleven countries abstained.



Article 26 of the UN declaration states: Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.



McNee said the provision is overly broad, unclear and capable of a wide variety of interpretations that could lead to the reopening of previously settled land claims and existing treaties.





What do you think?



Personally this is an issue that affects the "new world" more than the "old world". Personally I think that native tribes should at least get compensated for the loss of their land and receive a fair share of the profits, drawn from their land, but then I am not much affected by this...



I personally think that it IS an embarrassment to the governments of dissenting countries, as many of them stand in front row when it comes to criticise and point their finger at human rights violations. It appears as if this is only the case as long as they are not affected.



There are shades of grey in this, no doubt.



Please keep in mind that this is a sensitive topic. If you decide to step into it and participate in the discussion, please keep it as friendly and on topic as possible.



If you take (personal) offence in certain wordings, please verify whether it was meant as an (personal) insult BEFORE you then NOTIFY either the person, the mods or myself. Please do NOT respond in the (same) way and derail the thread.



It is clearly an online discussion and therefore wordings can get misunderstood - bear that in mind. Overly sarcastic or ironic posts might hurt somebody elses feelings - especially if not CLEARLY marked as such ( [ironic:] ....)



Also if you decide to participate, please don't just throw words of mouth at us, but try to enable us to verify (by posting supporting links) - excluded is personal experience.



Thanks for taking the time to read this

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Hi Rogue, I thought we were talking about collective guilt and collective fear. To me, it�s a obvious example of how the past mistreatment of human beings is still present in the psyche today. Call it Karma if you will.

�The USA was the only western country to historically make extensive use of slaves. Descendants of slave owners inherit the family attitude of fear of blacks.

The USA was the only western country that historically "recently" killed large numbers of indigenous people. Descendants of pioneers inherit the paranoia of those involved in the massacres.�

As far as Australia goes, we seem to be in denial about what we did. Perhaps, the effects of our misdeeds haven�t become a part of our collective guilt because we still seem to be treating Aborigionals in the same way as we have for the last 200 years. But for sure, the effects of our past will have an impact on our future. At one time we would have been the minority, so the opportunity for us is to make the future bright for all Australians.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Interesting position, SiSl. Stolen generation, genocide, deprivation of territory, denial of civil rights... all this is "right"?

Nobody is saying that you or John Howard did anything wrong personally (where we could discuss the latter). John Howard is the representative of an elected Australian government though. "J'excuse - j'accuse" (who excuses himself accuses himself) - IMO that is not always the case. But I understand that this position, plus what you mention about "further amends" is keeping him from saying sorry.

Yet these "further amends" are provided as we speak. Why then, if nobody did anything wrong in the first place? This is antithetic... White man is speaking with snake tongue...

"So under equal opportunity not everyone is entitled to apply." - you know the result of mating an ox with a moron? It's an oxymoron...

Thanks for the support, Stone.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

First off:

 Written by:

This is certainly obvious in the United States, where people still feel the need to carry guns because they live with the collective fear of slave and Indian uprisings of the past.



Whiskey Tango Foxtrot


I think the answer to whether or not we *should* be paying reparations needs to be answered before the discussion can progress much further FireTom, as it is an important part of the whole concept.

As bad as it sounds, everything can't be PC all the time in the world. Bad things have happened to people, should we stop them from happening again? Of course we should. But should we go back to 'right' the wrongs of long dead ancestors and give compensation to people who were not directly effected by the crimes? I don't believe so.

More importantly, Ex post facto laws are by in large illegal according to our Federal laws and our constitution. While that doesn't directly apply to this I think the concept should carry through, that you can't be charged with a crime due to a change in law (or creation of a new law) if the crime was not a 'crime' when it was committed.

In other words new laws have no bearing on past actions.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Hi Fire Tom, great topic. Though, I'm rather surprised by narrow minded and prejudiced attitudes expressed by the Australians. I thought, as a country, we had moved beyond that.



Nothing to apologise for SilentSide? How about destroying a civilization and turning them into a race of �lazy drunken slobs�. Not to mention the genocide and the pox.

Admitting we have done something wrong, and we have � that�s unarguable - would create a the space for healing so we can all move on. Otherwise we keep repeating the same mistakes, and become willing participants in other atrocities like the invasion of Iraq. In the end, all you argument is really saying is that you are more worried by the though of paying compensation, than that of the survival of a race of human beings.

Lurch, you said �of course we should stop bad things happen again�, so instead of making up crappy excuses and hiding behind the law, just do it.

I also take it Lurch that while you are not prepared to give compensation for the wrongs of long dead ancestors, you do think it is right to compensated people who are directly effected by these crimes against humanity. Therefore, you would have no objection to compensating the Iraqi people for the injustice metered out to them by the US and other governments.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

SilentSlide - I hope I explained myself already in my last post. Besides the Australian society today contains of more than just whites and all hang in there together, when it comes to compensation just alike. Your post was worded with the potential for misunderstanding

Lurch and Gnor - I was not talking about money being the one and only solution. Compensation and reparation can be "paid" in various ways, like certain individual programmes, certain sponsoring of 'commercial' ads and PR to raise awareness and heighten the social status of minorities, youth centres for all ethnic groups, sports programmes, land, etc. No controversial positioning on my side. I am certain a lot of youths are subconsciously enjoying their status as a perfect excuse to just rumble.

I am certain that the American native Indians and the Aboriginals are compensated for what happened 2 - 300 years ago, that makes at least 4 generations. How much is one generation to you anyway (in years)? How about Tasmanian Aboriginals?

If the founders of a society or nation do this based upon violence and genocide, the roots of this society are corrupted, just look at Shelbyville

Is it really that hard for you, Lurch - to answer my question whether or not I have proven that it is current law to compensate over more than the current, or directly affected generation?

I am not taking hard feelings from the gun thread either - but you have a damn bad habit to shoot first and expect us to prove you wrong later. Other than obvious arguments or personal experience - like the ones brought forward by Gnor - if you want to get taken serious in a discussion, provide more than expecting us to simply believe your words.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Gnor, it sounds like you are living in Redfern, Sydney not Perth. If the problems you experience are caused by drugs and alcohol, then you could consider moving (I think we have discussed this before, a few years back). Otherwise, I don�t think being open minded sets people up for failure.

I don�t mean to sound like a prat, but there may be other things happening in your life that are drawing all this negativity towards you. You have at least two choices: you can blame other people for your misfortunes or you can accept responsibility for the situation and take control.

If the pattern is being repeated then something need to be done to break the pattern. Obviously, throwing money at the problem hasn�t done any good. This in many ways has just created a welfare trap. Saying sorry, and acknowledging the hurt and injustice would, imo, go a long way to changing the current situation. Unfortunately, we may never know if this would work, because Howard is unlikely to accept any responsibility.

I like Noel Pearson�s approach because it includes welfare reform, empowerment and self determination. The Balkanu Cape York Development Corporation seems to be heading in the right direction. Balkanu is one of five not-for-profit sister organisations guided by the Cape York Agenda that aims to �enable the people of Cape York to have the capabilities to choose a life that they have reason to value.�


Silent Slide, perhaps you didn�t personally commit any atrocities, but you are still part of the process, and profit from past misdeeds. No one is asking you to claim responsibility, what we are asking you to do is take responsibility, as an Australian, for past and present atrocities by helping removing the shadow that haunts all Australians (whether they realise it or not).


Lurch, when are you going to wash the dust from your eyes? You seem to get hung up on money and possessions, when it�s really about saying �we were wrong� and accept responsibility for our actions. Anyhow, what�s wrong with giving compensation for past misdeeds; it helps ease the conscious on both sides. Some call it �sorry money�, but it�s not really about money is it, how could money ever compensate for the atrocities committed against indigenous populations. Furthermore, I don�t think it�s an argument to say don�t give money to indigenous people because, in your opinion, you think they might squander it.

I don�t think American Imperialism, as evident by the invasion and occupation of Iraq, is that different from this discussion. Who knows how long America will occupy Iraq for, until the oil runs dry perhaps. As far as said compensation. Don�t you mean American companies are profiteering by rebuilding infrastructure destroyed by American armed forces.

I think you missed Fire Tom�s point on money.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Drawing negativity to myself. Im sure there are people who will have a field day with that comment and agree entirely.

Maybe if I lived in Redfern or even Balga or Lockridge the problems may be worse but although we talked about moving we also dont want to be driven from our home also

(nice paralel there hey) ( We might get paid for our home but will get no apology).



If all the disgruntled people move from an area what happens? Does it solve the problems. If I move I will be less judgemental?...no...its .age and personal experience is making me judgemental Im afraid. Exposing me to a tip of the iceberg of the problem simply makes me aware rather than relying on media for an informed opinion. I am glad Stone and Tom that you are stronger personalities and can take repeated abuse without being prejudiced. Im glad you care enough as well.



We have lived where we are since 1991. In the past this has given us likely an above average exposure than most people on this site. Not Redfern but not Nedlands either. The problems have actually reduced since they dismantled the fringe dwellers camp due to sexual abuse within it. The same camp denied police access and had teenagers suicide due to its problems.

We are happy in our leafy suburb but it is distressing to experience the negative side of aborignals that we see. Its our personal experiences that form our opinions.

Im glad the government is moving into communities to try help. Working in a laboratory 15 years ago we saw Chlamydia and Gono in children of 4 and 5; victims of sexual abuse within their communities. These were notifiable diseases but the issue wasnt tackled then. Thankfully the government is trying to do something about it. How effective it will be remains to be seen but its a step in the right direction. I imagine it will be more effective in a relativly closed community than a suburban situation.

For the record....

I want a soultion to what I see is a racial problem. I have no solution I can offer.

I see a race that is not assimilating effectively nor keeping its own culture, its lost somewhere between. One of my often voiced fear is we are losing this generation and what happens to the next when the elders who care now are gone. Will this generation step into their role.

.



I agree with Natasquis post entirely. Unfortunately we have a health system that is struggling already.2% of the population already consumes more than 50% of the health budget already. This is skewed by the fact that the patients are remote and renal failure is expensive.

Our education system is falling apart already. We need to get enough people from within the community educated in appropriate skills and teaching to the community. Aboriginal boys learn best traditionally from men. Most teachers are female.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

whoopsie, please darlings keep it friendly and sprinkle a and a (if you mean it this way)... We've been doing pretty good so far, let's not slip into misinterpretation of wordings errm, pleeease

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

natasqi, I think you will find that things like �primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc�, have all been tried in the past, and have not worked. They have not worked because Australians (all who have migrated here) still fail to see Aboriginal�s as fellow human beings. In many respects, it�s still us verse them; as is evident from many of the Australian comments expressed in this thread.

If the PM actually showed some leadership and said �sorry�, then this would be acknowledgement for all the past atrocities. This acknowledgement would be the first step in helping a once great people rebuild their culture. Though, this is probably wasted on someone who doesn�t understand compassion for fellow human beings, or the benefits of being able to freely give a bloke the price of a cup of coffee.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

 Written by: Stone


natasqi, I think you will find that things like �primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc�, have all been tried in the past, and have not worked. They have not worked because Australians (all who have migrated here) still fail to see Aboriginal�s as fellow human beings. In many respects, it�s still us verse them; as is evident from many of the Australian comments expressed in this thread.




Why? Have you done a survey on this?

Q. Are aboriginals
a) Vermin
b) Human
c) Some weird form of sub-human
d) Some weird alien race from Pluto?

Sarcasm aside, I think you are horribly misinformed in thinking that migrant australians think that aboriginals are less than human. And therefore I'm not even going to bother saying how that therefore cannot be the reason that healthcare et al have not worked.

And just in case any of that minute minority stone is talking about is reading this, the correct answer is b) Human

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...