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Forums > Social Discussion > UN native rights declaration finally passes, but...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Article in Canadian media



Basically what it says is that



 Written by: CBC news

the non-binding declaration, which sets out global human rights standards for indigenous populations, was easily approved Thursday by the UN General Assembly in New York with only Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia dissenting. Eleven countries abstained.



Article 26 of the UN declaration states: Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.



McNee said the provision is overly broad, unclear and capable of a wide variety of interpretations that could lead to the reopening of previously settled land claims and existing treaties.





What do you think?



Personally this is an issue that affects the "new world" more than the "old world". Personally I think that native tribes should at least get compensated for the loss of their land and receive a fair share of the profits, drawn from their land, but then I am not much affected by this...



I personally think that it IS an embarrassment to the governments of dissenting countries, as many of them stand in front row when it comes to criticise and point their finger at human rights violations. It appears as if this is only the case as long as they are not affected.



There are shades of grey in this, no doubt.



Please keep in mind that this is a sensitive topic. If you decide to step into it and participate in the discussion, please keep it as friendly and on topic as possible.



If you take (personal) offence in certain wordings, please verify whether it was meant as an (personal) insult BEFORE you then NOTIFY either the person, the mods or myself. Please do NOT respond in the (same) way and derail the thread.



It is clearly an online discussion and therefore wordings can get misunderstood - bear that in mind. Overly sarcastic or ironic posts might hurt somebody elses feelings - especially if not CLEARLY marked as such ( [ironic:] ....)



Also if you decide to participate, please don't just throw words of mouth at us, but try to enable us to verify (by posting supporting links) - excluded is personal experience.



Thanks for taking the time to read this smile

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1191487247)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:We aren't there for the oil.

*deep breath*
*joins the lurkers for now*


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted: Written by: Stone



natasqi, I think you will find that things like primary healthcare, education, mental health facilities, basic infrastructure, focused scholarship schemes etc, have all been tried in the past, and have not worked. They have not worked because Australians (all who have migrated here) still fail to see Aboriginals as fellow human beings. In many respects, its still us verse them; as is evident from many of the Australian comments expressed in this thread.



If the PM actually showed some leadership and said sorry, then this would be acknowledgement for all the past atrocities. This acknowledgement would be the first step in helping a once great people rebuild their culture. Though, this is probably wasted on someone who doesnt understand compassion for fellow human beings, or the benefits of being able to freely give a bloke the price of a cup of coffee.



frown





Holy Cow...



Ok, I'm going to try not to take any of your insults personally and focus on the facts.



Ok.. the passed schemes which have not worked are for a few reasons.

They have been implemented by whites, who do not understand Indigenous culture and therefore, it is seen as paternalistic.



Most Shared Responsibility agreements HAVE worked and the communities have made MORE agreements, and there have been great educational and health gains from them.



It has only been recently that the government has worked WITH Indigenous people trying to solve problems.

Self-determination is ofcourse what everyone is aiming for. It was the purpose of ATSIC.

ATSIC didn't work. Everyone agrees ATSIC didn't work. Money didn't get to where it was needed, there was embelishment of funds and rape charges.

It didn't work. Not because Indigenous Australians can't handle money, not because the govt didn't give them enough power, not because "Australians don't view them as human beings" no race related reasons.

It just didn't work. (probably bad choice of leader...)



So the govt tries self-determination again, but with smaller amounts of money, going directly to the communities that need it.

and SRAs do work. We are seeing the benefits.

Scholarship schemes have increased the number of rural doctors (though it's not a permanent or prefered solution) but it still WORKS.



I agree with you the PM should say Sorry and that it is important, but I don't place as much importance on it as you. I don't believe that one word will spur people into action.



 Written by: Stone



Though, this is probably wasted on someone who doesnt understand compassion for fellow human beings, or the benefits of being able to freely give a bloke the price of a cup of coffee.





Ok, I can't help it, I have to address these comments.



First of, You haven't answered any of my previous questions, and have remained vague about who thinks that the Indignous Australians are the cause for all their problems.



Secondly, I think the above remarks are inbelievably offensive. For a community like HOP that tries to welcome people and create a sharing atmosphere, your flippant comments are hurtful and un-needed. This discussion could have been based on facts and experiences, but instead you are attacking others for their points of view.



Thirdly, the above coments are completely unfounded, if you want me to start to list the volunteering I've done, the number of hours in a week I spend focussing on organisations like Oaktree, LINCS and InterHealth, maybe split up into Indigenous and non-Indigenous hours?

Because I can, but I don't believe this will change your view at all.



Fourthy, what is the point of giving a human being the price of a coffee, when he/she can walk down the road, get a warm bed, new clothes and all the coffee they want?



So, like Gnor and Rogue, I am saddened that this conversation has deteriorated... and unless I see any intelligent debate,



I'm out.

EDITED_BY: natasqi (1191247978)


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Now now you two, you have every right to voice your opinions, whatever they may be, don't let anyone bully you into silence.

Stone: You sure are assuming a whole lot about a culture you don't know very much about.

 Written by:

You seem to get hung up on money and possessions, when its really about saying we were wrong and accept responsibility for our actions. Anyhow, whats wrong with giving compensation for past misdeeds; it helps ease the conscious on both sides. Some call it sorry money, but its not really about money is it, how could money ever compensate for the atrocities committed against indigenous populations. Furthermore, I dont think its an argument to say dont give money to indigenous people because, in your opinion, you think they might squander it.



Why does saying 'sorry' have to include money? This drive to make everything fair and even, and make amends for long ago problems is what is tearing us apart. No group, race, religion, or culture should be entitled to any sort of 'bonus' over the other. EVERY group, race, religion and culture have had terrible things happen to them in the past, it's time to move on and get over it. The problem with minorities is not their race, but poverty levels, you see nearly identical crime statistics for any group of people in identical income levels. If we are going to apply money to the problem, it needs to be applied towards combating poverty, for ALL races. If you would notice I did not say don't give them money because they'll squander it. I said:
 Written by:

Why not give the money to organizations that will use it appropriately instead of to the individual with the potential to squander it?



If money is the answer, than precautions need to be taken to ensure that that money is actually going to help the people it is supposed to help.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay, before I go on reading:



PLEASE KEEP IT FRIENDLY! Try to read and understand what the other is writing and do not assume some double meaning behind the wordings! If you are taking offence, please ASK before you answer, whether you should take offence! It's a sensitive topic and the tread can be derailed pretty easy.



Rouge, Stone has not written that any Australian posts suggest Aboriginals to be "less than human". As a matter of fact his wording has been: "dont consider Aboriginals as equals" ... You've been stirring up some passion here yourself ... wink



"Sorry" my a** - I have marched over the Sydney harbour bridge on a Corraboree. The Aboriginal people I had contact with DO give something about this word and cannot understand why this is such a problem. Some white ppl still do live in denial. It's not all liberal and open mindedness in either Australia AND the US, some can be pretty redneck too - same applies to the US (and certainly to Europe). Racism is still omnipresent.



Thanks Natasqi for staying with us, please don't take offence. It might be that Stone has read one of your earlier posts and not sensed the sarcasm that you sprinkled across. I myself was close to take it for granted.



Child abuse happens in Aboriginal communities, but it needed a "too" after the statement - besides having been offtopic, no? Crimes happen in those communities, as the native ppl also being perpetrators - they are human beings after all. This needed emphasis, but no explicit attention - I reckon.



Personally I don't think that Stone wants to bully anyone (into silence), he's just taking things as personal as those who take offence in his post. Can't blame either.



Lurch, I'm not sure how much you know about Aboriginal culture yourself and how involved you have been with native American Indians on your side of the ocean. Not saying that you have to, but talking to those affected first hand gives some (better) insight in what they actually value. Btw you can't fully compare the Aboriginals and the native American Indians. Their ideology and ancestral beliefs are different. Their tales are different. I tried to understand by reading and noticed that it was far off a white mans' understanding (at least mine). Have you ever heard of "dreamtime" and what significance it has to Aboriginals? You get an idea by looking into the significance of native burial grounds. Hence (as I see it) cutting off Aboriginals from their ancestral land is much alike stealing their individual souls.



However - saying "sorry" is significant. At least to Aboriginals. It IS an issue. You may not understand that not only the Aboriginal people are different from the native American Indians, but also that they found themselves in a different setup after getting invaded. It just IS different.



Maybe you try to take this as it's said, until you render it personally, because I feel you might be talking out of your box, when simply saying "get over it". If I'd stand in the middle of Jerusalem and said the same to some older Jews, I just would take a lot of beating. And they would have every right.



Now you seem to have missed out on the fact that many of these minorities gained the status of an actual "citizen" (or human being) way after WWII, way after the Allies discovered the Nazi atrocities and stood trial over those Germans (in charge) and "de-nazified" an entire population - whilst in their own countries and colonies... oh well.



It's always more easy to point the finger at others, than to look into the mirror.



Apart from Stone being angry about what he seems to get out of some wordings, I side him on his approach that some nations seem to be unwilling to seriously reconciliate. I mean we're talking about genocide here, about deprivation of civil/ human rights and land. (and this going on until the second half of last century!) Doesn't matter whether they had no independent nation prior to the white man. Who knows, maybe they would have had soon after? White man has just been (too) advanced... shrug



Maybe they should have killed James Cook or Christopher Columbus when they first arrived, instead of giving these sneakers a warm welcome?



Now last, but not least I would ask all of you to come back to reasonable terms and not to take or mean it personally?



Please? grouphug ???

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1191260865)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Tom, with out trying to sound like a little kid, I've got to say...None of us asked to be born here.

Thing is, the whole collective guilt idea expired a decade ago, about the time we rejected political correctness as a doctrine and if you look at the ( local, I can't speak for Australia, I don't live there ) situation, a case can be made for natives wanting a two tiered system to me maintained because, obviously, they benefit from it.

It's not about culture, it's not about the environment ( as organizations like Greenpeace used to market in Europe ) it's not about apologies...it's about money.

A for instance....I'm an independent street artist who pays rent to sell my wares on public land, yet only 20 feet away are a group of natives who enjoy this privilege rent free based on the claim "it's our land" Also the deal with selling my stuff where I do is it must be artist made, artist sold...including the natives. They don't agree and openly sell Chinese imports stating " we can do whatever we want it's our land" Two tiered? I'll say.

Another for instance..I was out fishing for salmon in a river this morning and due to conservation regulations, I ( as a non aboriginal ) have to fish with a single barbless hook fly, whereas right next to me is a first nations guy foul hooking ( which is a great big treble barbed fishhook aimed at the side of a fish, not the mouth ) salmon which he can not only legally do, but he can SELL the fish afterwards. If I tried that ...yikes...I'd loose my gear, my truck, and get a very hefty fine to boot. Two tiered ?

As time marches on, claims of racism are getting old. Just how long are we willing to allow collective guilt to be used as a weapon? How long should we keep on giving just because "they were here first"

Tom,,upthread you mentioned "ridicule the argument" suggesting that those states where the "invaders" originated, namely the EU. Now, as someone who's stuck paying those reparations I have to disagree with your idea. See every EU country voted in favour of this ( symbolic ) document and were it not symbolic, I'd be asking the EU to put their money where their mouth is instead of telling us how to run our country( ies )

Stone...Americans carry guns because they value the second amendment as much as they do the first, not because they're scared of an "uprising". Also, If you support returning vacant land to Aboriginals ie removing it from the public domain, how do you feel about giving back parkland ? How about urban parkland ? You know, the land that would be prime for clearcutting and development...or at least a casino.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:See Stout and that is where I have to disagree - with all due respect. If governments would have done their job right, or would improve their approach, things would get on a road where racial injustices could be levelled out.

Guys could no longer put you off on your (inherited) guilt, but you could respond: Well heck yeah, and all these actions (*fill in appropriate programmes and advantages*) have been taken to your advantage in the meantime! So get me off your hook, will ya?

You (as me) have not chosen to be born as such (despite this being a ideological question), hence I had to take my part just as well. Currently any German celeb or person of public interest, politician who voices any kind of farthest sympathy with even non-genocidal aspects of recent German history looses his job almost in the very same instant.

None of my family has been involved with the Nazi party, yet reparations had to be paid by each and everyone. Is that right, is that lawful? I think so, yes. We are reaching a state, where we can look at Israeli on eye level.

If I'd be to dislike the fact that the history of my country costs my money, my dough, my fish... who forces me to stay? I love the country, I love the people - so I buy the entire package, or you leave it behind. It's not always cherry-picking... is it?

Sure it'd be lots easier to write it off, but then? If you'd be in the shoes of these natives and said what you said, I'd say okay. But you might speak from the same position as the EU: It's not your country, not your dough lost - the country has been occupied - without a declaration of war. It has been genocide and theft and long time atrocities.

Actually I can't and won't force my views on anyone. It's free to take or to leave. You're entitled to your opinion - as much as anyone else in here.

wink

(PS: it should read "the majority of Americans" - if even that would be correct and then: why not? This way the whites for once have to stand aside and watch, might get the slightest of an idea of what it must have felt like)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Urm,,,yes governments doing their jobs right...excuse me but ubblol ubblol ubblol This coming from me, an ex government employee who saw anything but doing the job right as the primary focus. It was more like CYA and justify your union job.

Anyways, were I to cease cherry picking and decide to return home to the EU...would they actually let me? Suppose I was bringing along a hundred million or so of my buddies who felt the collective guilt and wanted things to return to the way they used to be ? , Naaa the EU would be better off sending money instead.

I'm aware that Germany has muzzled their holocaust deniers by law , it's a freedom of speech issue here and luckily most people recognise bs when they hear it.

Thing is, we can all look First Nations in the eye. We're all aware of the certain advantages and opportunities that they're afforded and we're all aware that these advantages aren't offered to any other ethnic group. Also, we're all aware that it's up to First nations peoples themselves to make the decision whether they want to take these advantages or continue to demand more, and more reparations until someone, somewhere decides this debt is paid.

Personally I've decided it's paid in full, but you'd actually have to live here to know where I'm coming from.

And what were First nations doing when the white man showed up ? Why brutally murdering each other ( and owning slaves ) of course, so it can't really be argued that the white man corrupted them in any way. I wonder if collected guilt applies to predator tribes, like the Haida, and the generations of pain and suffering they inflicted on their victims.

I know it's tempting to embrace the idea of the nobel savage but to pit things into perspective here's url=http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling.html]how things used to be[/url] and how things are today with an American Indian band that's about 20 miles from here.

Maybe that'll help you see why the countries that actually have a stake in this issue don't want to oblige the UN in their vaguely worded document.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:"(PS: it should read "the majority of Americans" - if even that would be correct and then: why not? This way the whites for once have to stand aside and watch, might get the slightest of an idea of what it must have felt like) "

What are you trying to say? I cannot tell
who gets reparations? I'm Mexican/Native and White. What about the kids down the street who are black and white. Trust me there are poor white folk in the US too. But the white people need to take care of the black people. There are no survivors left. There are plenty of programs to help but more to ensnare folks in the projects.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:The white 1/3 of you has to pay for the other 2/3's of you Faith, it's only fair for all the atrocities that you did to you wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:well, it's half and half

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Rouge, I know you are all kind, loving and caring people, but Im not joining in the gossip circle. I think that Australians think that they are doing the best for the indigenous people is a blind spot for Australians; as nothing much has changed in 200 years. We say all these nice things, but there does not seem to be any real acceptance of Aborigionals as persons or equals. There are some nice stories, but its the same old prattle we have been saying for the last 200 years, and people are still keeping Aborigionals at arms length.

People need to accept Aborigionals as persons and equals, not objects or things, before we can move on. Saying sorry would be a good start. It would also show some trust in that that we werent afraid of loosing some land.


Natasqi, disagreeing with someone is not necessarily insulting them. However, getting attacked for having a different opinion to the rest of the group is insulting.

I think things would go better for the Aborigional people if there was a bit of honesty here. So why not just say we are selfish Australians who are not prepared to help out other human being unless there is something in it for us. Then perhaps we can get away from all theses excuses like, it happened long ago and its not our problem.

Lurch, while it may appear that its about making amends for long ago problems, we still have the same problems today. Nothing has changed, things are worse if anything. We have a mutual responsibility to improve the situation. Money is only part of the solution, as much money has been spent to no avail. Obviously, whats missing is not so much money, as the humanising things like acceptance, trust, respect and love.

Stout, I think we have similar problems, but Im not sure if what I have said applies in Canada, though I think collective guilt will be a problem until the issues is sorted. We have Native Title in Australia, though it has a few imperfections. As far as urban parkland goes, I was disappointed when the Melbourne council decided to remove a sacred fire from a Melbourne park after only three weeks.

meditate


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Wades back in...no self control

Suggest some real solutions to the issues.

Same rules throughout isnt working as you have said already.
Different rules isnt working as said already.
Money isnt working
Intervention isnt working

Also...
Can anyone give information on traditional tribal set up in terms of patriachy, matriachy or how it works.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo

Total posts: 3764
Posted:as with all areas of politics, what has been done "for" the indigenous population of australia, has, thus far, been much more about being seen to do the right thing, than trying to solve any specific issues.

for a long, long time, millions and millions of dollars were poured into atsic, which, rife with graft and corruption, contributed a great deal more to the lining of atsic member's pockets than it did to making the lives of the australian aboriginal people, better.

throwing more money at the issues without giving any real thought to what issues actually need to be solved, is going to solve nothing.

on the other hand... the stampede approach, demonstrated by the australian governement just recently, in response to a report of disproportionately high incidences of children with stds (among other health issues), is equally counter-productive.

the above is really just a long-winded way of repeating what gnor said:

 Written by: gnor

Money isnt working
Intervention isnt working




it's disturbing that there hasn't been a more concerted effort to try to solve such issues, collaboratively... with respresentatives (elders and young blood alike) from the indigenous population and from the health industry etc.

think I've started to stray off-topic, but I've been led there by the conversation thus far.

fwiw, I agree with stone, regarding the apology. at the very least, the lead representative of the australian government, owes the australian aboriginal people an apology, on behalf of the nation that has largely destroyed and is continuing to destroy their land, their people, and their culture; to the point of wholesale genocide in tasmania.

with respect, however to the original topic of this thread... the UN resolution, I remain unconvinced. as has been quite rightly pointed out, the ownership of land has been in a constant state of flux since times pre-historic. so, I'm not quite sure why it should apply any more to indigenous australians than it should to those cultures displaced further back in time.

it's getting a lil bit late for me to be commenting further in any intelligible way, so I think I'll leave it for now; but it is nice to see people debating such potentially emotive topics in a civil manner.


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:I agree pogo...
and will try to address to Indigenous problem with International aid examples, which is more my forte.

Once, money was just thrown at countries. Most of this went to the government for them to delegate to the country. Nearly none of this cash would ever get to those in the slums, at the poor end of the society.

Then people would try intervention.
Even now (though it is MUCH better now) after the Tsunami for example, many countries sent medical aid personel over. Now, this kind of thing has to be very well thought out.
Some countries sent just doctors, when all the hospitals and theatres were already full, they couldn't do anything.
Some countries sent over boxes and boxes of gloves... But size 10 gloves, larger than any small Asian doctors' hands.

One country knew that the floor of a little hospital was dirt and sent over the concrete and metal wiring for a concrete floor. Sadly, no one knew how to do it in the community (no instructions were sent in their native language) so they scattered the concrete over the wiring.. thinking it would 'set' or something (instead of mixing water and sand on concrete...) and of course, the concrete blew away.
COPMPLETE WASTE

It's like so many countries who send surgeons over after the tsunami in week 4.
In week 4, most of the surgery has been done. What is needed week 4 is public health professionals and infectious disease specialists etc to deal with the fact there is no running water, and excretment is building up etc etc.

But basically, people do these things because they believe they would help. They do them because there is a need for x and they think.. "if we give them money, they can buy x"
or, "they need x, we'll give them y-->x"

And in the past, this is all that they knew how to do... and it was better than nothing!

100 years ago, the way to resuscitate people was still, roll them over a barrel, put them on a trotting horse, or blow tobacco smoke up their rectum.
They didn't do these things for no reason, they did them because they thaught at the time they were doing the right thing, that they were helping.

It's the same for all the Australian government policies. It's great to look back now with very different ethics and morals... but at the time, taking Aboriginal children away from their parents was thought to be "THE BEST THING FOR THEM"
Creating ATSIC and giving them lots of money was thought to be THE BEST THING FOR THEM
and now, the intervention campaign... some government advisor thought it was THE BEST THING FOR THEM.
Some one thought. "These kids are being sexually abused" -->"Hey, lets send a taskforce to make sure they're not"

I don't agree with the governments decision. I think it's a step behind international aid.
International aid now realises that for long term solutions, there must be a strong base in eductaion. Children can't rise out of poverty and living on $2 a day in Africa if they don't get the chance to go to school and do something other than working the sparce land.
Indigenous communities aren't going to be pulled from poverty unless they have the chance to have Indigenous teachers, and Indigenous doctors, and their children to be educated in a culturally appropriate way.. Unless they can have people trained into how to build houses and roads and people have skills, and feel ownership of their property because they EARN it, not because it's government land which can be given and taken away.

If you earn a house, or help build a community centre, you're not going to allow youth to vandalise it.

Ok, that's my aid rant...

And how this relates back to the topic.. :P

In my own personal humble opinion which I have formed from my own interations with Indigenous Australians disclaimer disclaimer biggrin...
I don't believe that for Indigenous Australians who have not grown up on indegenous properties... i.e. those who went to school in Perth, live in the suburbs, don't have a big cultural following.. to these Indigenous Australians, saying sorry is a big thing because it's more acceptance into the society they live in. They believe they have access to all the healthcare, housing etc etc that all Australians do and therefore money/compensation/land, isn't an issue.

For Indigenous Australians who live on stations (I know, oldschool word) up North, it is more about facilities and quality of living, and avoiding the terrible loop that everyone is caught in.
(Watch Crossing the Line, a wonderful documentary about three (or two... ermm..) medical students who go to an Indigenous community and really engage with them and are pulled out by their university for getting 'too close' with the sensitive issue of youth suicide)
They already have their own land, they don't socialise with whites that much so a sorry is.. important, but not at the expense of other things. Other things like a sense of community ownership, or community responsibility, for children to be interested in Indigenous culture and not affected by Western influences etc.

Once again, I am not a professor in Indigenous studies, these are only my opinions through my own experiences, observations and conversations.

Two Indigenous medical students that I know, unfortunately ahd to repeat a year of med (not that uncommon I guess...) and one dropped out. Mainly because they had a scholarhsip to come, but there was never as much academic pressure on them in their community and there wasn't enough transitional support.
They both plan to go back to their communities to practice.
A sorry for them, isn't that important because the PM is one man.. and when you live with the tolerance or intolerance of people every day, it doesn't matter to them if he says sorry. If John Howard says sorry, it's not going to suddenly make all the racist people in Australia think "oh, oops! they're people too!"


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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Stone - ""Natasqi, disagreeing with someone is not necessarily insulting them. However, getting attacked for having a different opinion to the rest of the group is insulting."

I'm sorry if anything I have said you have conscrued as attacking you. I do not mean to attack your opinions or views, only present mine with as much evidence as possible.

I was replying to your comment that you think your comments are wasted on me because I have no compassion for fellow human beings. To me this is an insult. If this was not meant as an insult, then maybe it could have been worded differently because that phrase was very hurtful.

And I ask you for anything I have said which you think is attacking you so that in the future I can refrain from this type of hurtful language.

I have probably done too many "art of critical thinking and philsophical argument" lectures about presenting evidence. I apologise if my posts seem to be too harsh.

In my mind.. a discussion like this goes.
x: I believe A because B
Y: A is incorrect because B is incorrect/ A is incorrect because B/=A

etc etc... In my kind you haven't really produced any evidence for you views (though I have asked for it)

By this I don't mean that your views are wrong, I just find it hard be able to see things from your point of view as I do not have your knowledge.

So, what I'm trying to say is I really like intelligent discussions about things because it's the best way to learn. And asking questions that could break the other persons argument, allows them to find more evidence and acquire a stronger base for their beliefs.

Therefore, I am not attacking you as a person, I am only questioning/attacking your statements so that I can find the evidence behind them and re-evaluate my stance on the issue.

So, for example your statement
"So why not just say we are selfish Australians who are not prepared to help out other human being unless there is something in it for us."
I don't believe this is true (i.e. I don't believe that Australians as a while are selfish)
because...
The Australian government (as voted in by the Australian people) has budgeted for $3.155 billion in official development assistance.
Story from January 5th, 2005 after the Tsunami
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Asia-tsuna...4832167314.html
""The total of more than $100 million from private donations equates to $5 for each Australian, ranking Australia among the most generous countries in the world.""
The Oxfam Close the Gap campaign (about the 17yr gap in life expentancy between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians)
pledge has been signed by over 80,000 Australians.

With this evidence, I don't agree with your statement that Australians are selfish and that we are prepared to helo another human being unless there is something in it for us.

PHEW! *breathes*

biggrin I should start debating again.. I forgot how much I enjoyed it.


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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:clap clap

Now study all that AS stuff.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Gnor, thats a great summary.



 Written by:

Same rules throughout isnt working as you have said already.

Different rules isnt working as said already.

Money isnt working

Intervention isnt working

I still think that





So what would work? Id suggest that these methods arent working because they are only addressing one side of the problem, and that side is the physical/intellectual animal side of a human being. Whats missing are the methods that redress the psychological/emotional spiritual side of human beings. The humanising things like acceptance, trust, respect and love seem to missing.



Saying sorry would be a good start because it helps heal the the emotional side, which is necessary for any significant change. Other wise it the same old throwing money into a pit. If people still doubt the significance of words and symbolism, then remember the power of pointing the bone.



AIPR Fact sheet: Psychic and Mystical Experiences of the Aborigines



natasqi, while you mean well (and hey, that is a fantastic attribute) and have good intentions. True compassion is not conditional, it's not I dont give to beggars because I think they are lazy.



Excellent contribution Pogo69.



Im out of here while I still have skin



smile

EDITED_BY: Stone (1191371368)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok natasqi, while I still have some skin left. Perhaps it was a bit unfair to say all Australians are selfish, and not prepared to help other human being unless there is something in it for us. But we do have a blind spot when it comes to helping Aborigionals. I would also say we are selective in our generosity, while we might have given generously to the 2005 Tsunami appeal, very little assistance was given to victims of the Pakistan earthquake of 2005.

As far as presenting evidence goes, it depends what you are trying to say. All we are really doing is presenting our opinions. Sometimes it helps to research things, but then someone comes up with counter evidence. This was apparent in the gun thread.

I think you are correct when you say that you may have done too many "art of critical thinking and philosophical argument" lectures about presenting evidence. This type of thinking is narrow and linear, and can restrict people. There are more creative ways to look at problems, mostly in the new age area.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Great article Stone!

I for one can say that my upbringing has made it hard for me to understand some cultural differences, especially in the area of health.
We are taught that...
We aren't allowed to look Indigenous Australians in the eye if they are older than us.
We're not allowed to ask them questiuons, we have to sit until they tell us what is wrong.
We're not allowed to touch or examine them unless we have permission from their elder.
(of course when we did our Indigneous case studies on Indigenous patients, most told us that this was a load of rubbish and no one expects it anymore...:)
Now, I'm sure they have some very strong spiritual/cultural reasons for this. But if I'm a GP and trying to figure out why they are in my practise... I just couldn't do it.
Which is why Indigenous doctors who wouldn't have these barriers are so importnat. Or at least nurse practioners who could talk to the patients and ask questions are invaluable.

SO I don't pretend to be completely grasp all their views.. though there are many other non-Indigenous views that I don't understand either, like those against blood transfusions or egg donation... but I'm agnostic so I don't have some greater power telling me how I should live my life...

""True compassion is not conditional, it's not I dont give to beggars because I think they are lazy. ""

I think you misunderstood my previous statements. I'm not not giving to them because they're lazy. I'm not giving money to them because the $3.50 or whatever it costs now for a coffee, could be donated to the shelter down the road and provide coffee for ten homeless people.
Or that $3 will give a child in East Timor primary schooling for a year.
$10 will train stafff at Heartbeat's Emtonjeni Centre in Africa to provide detailed HIV awareness education to a child living at risk of infection. Thus preventing MANY deaths.

So I could give a homeless person change and they could buy a coffee. Or I could save this change and put it in my little Oaktree "Seeds for Change" box and know that it's going to help infintely more people than just one.

Just like my career. I could stay in Perth and work here as a surgeon. Doing 4 operations a week. 2 life saving, 2 mostly preventative...
Or I could work in an impoverished area, doing surgery all day, every day on patients who have walked for 3 days with a spear through their jaw, or were carried on their mother's back after stepping on a land mind. I could perform 10 life saving surgeries a day.

So, you may give your change where you wish, where you think is best... and I will give mine...


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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Another wonderful passage I just found (haha, this is going so off topic)

"Idiot compassion", in the words of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, is "the highly conceptualized idea that you want to do good". It refers to the tendency of spiritual practitioners (particularly Buddhists) to give people what they want as opposed to what they need, all in the name of being nice and compassionate.

Complimenting someone's poor artwork in order not to hurt their feelings, rather than expressing your true opinion and helping them grow, would be an example of idiot compassion. In this case, the truly compassionate action is to help the other person understand what they did right, and what they need to improve - even though this may leave them feeling hurt and dejected for days or even weeks. However, application of this form of compassion should be carefully evaluated and calibrated given each circumstance, and should not be applied to inflict damage indirectly. An example of Idiot compassion could include those who would enable an individual or group with a temporary solution to their problem, in order to give them what they want instead of having the courage, insight, or other, to do what is necessary to help the individual or group in the long run.

The phrase was first used by Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and is sometimes used in Buddhist circles. It is used extensively by Ken Wilber and practitioners of his Integral philosophy, as well as by spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen.

So.. I could say that people are giving the begging man want he wants, instead of what he needs... but then it is my own Western view of what he needs and then we are falling back to paternalism...
How interesting! I like this concept! smile
All about temporary solutions instead of having the 'courage and insight' into helping them in the long run... wow.. this sounds like it's directed towards Govt policy biggrin

All thanks to wiki - hug


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Great stuff natasqi,

I dont understand many of the cultural difference either. I suspect that some Indigenous doctors might also face the same problems if they were dealing with tribes they had little contact with. So now Im wondering just how many Indigenous doctors and nurses are working in Australia? I know there are schemes to fast track doctors for country areas, but Im not sure if this also applies to remote communities.

I suspect that you will find that the non-Indigenous views against blood transfusions or egg donation are related to religious beliefs. Most are well documented.

I agree that I might have you misunderstood your statements about giving money. But it would be difficult for a homeless person to understand that you are not donating in order to provide coffee for ten homeless people living in a shelter. Though, as you say, its your decision to give your change where you wish, where you think is best.

I like the example of Idiot compassion, but I dont like the name. I think what he means is unskilled compassion. Compassion being more a matter of insight and intelligence rather than good intentions and good feelings.
While I think it would take most people a lot of training to reach the level where they are skilled and can see all possibilities; a greater awareness of idiot compassion is bound to lead us to making better decisions in the future.

 Written by:

So.. I could say that people are giving the begging man want he wants, instead of what he needs... but then it is my own Western view of what he needs and then we are falling back to paternalism...



Yes, I agree that people could be giving the begging man want he wants, instead of what he needs. It is a excellent question, perhaps one that is at the crux of this problem

For sure, government is really only concerned with temporary solutions and winning elections. Though, I would vote for John Howard if he decided to say sorry.

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted:Just looking for the details on Indigenous doctors for you..
"Indigenous doctors account for .02% of the Indigenous population in comparison to non-Indigenous doctors who account for 21% of the non-Indigenous population.[ii] This indicates that:
twelve times the current number of Indigenous doctors are needed; and
there is a current shortfall of 968 Indigenous doctors in Australia"
http://www.aida.org.au/res/File/pdf/The%...vember%2005.pdf
this seems weird... 21% of the non-indigenous population are doctors???? I think thats 2.1 or something...

and 936 Indigenous Health Care Workers
http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/html/html_programs/programs_health_workers_1.htm


And from the AIDA website...
There are currently an estimated 90 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander doctors and 100 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander medical students in Australia .
http://www.aida.org.au/category.php?id=74

That is.. very very few...


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Something is very fishy about that report natasqi, most industrialized countries are around 100-300 doctors per 100,000 people. Not 21,000 doctors to 100,000 people

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Lurch - does this derive from word of mouth, personal experience, serious research, any statistics that you just forgot to share with us? Please enlighten us... The ratio of 1 (doctor) to 5 (patients) vs. 1 : 1000 seems odd tho... I guess the reality is somewhere in between the two.

Great info Nat! Thanks for your participation, highly appreciated. clap

Thanks to everyone participating in reason and coming back to the kind of discussion which is both informative and constructive = the way to go in this forum!

grouphug we can do it the right way!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


Or http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/hea_pra_phy-health-practising-physicians&b_map=1


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi natasqi, thanks for the information on Indigenous doctors. I have put a few quotes below that caught my eye. Going back to your stats on overseas aid. I would like to be proved wrong here, but I think Im like a lot of Australians who are willing to donate to many good causes, but dont do much to support Indigenous people. Like I have a sponsor child in Thailand, but I cant remember the last time I did something for the Indigenous population. I pay my taxes, and Ive been leaving the rest up to the Government; and we can see where that got us.

So, the question is, how do you think people like me can make a worthwhile contribution. One idea I had was we could get involved by sponsoring a Doctor, a medical team or even a remote community.

 Written by:

As rural and remote health workforce issues impact significantly on Indigenous communities and people in these settings, this needs to be better recognised in rural and remote health policy. However, this must not happen at the expense of a concurrent focus on the health of Indigenous people living in urban environments.

However, as noted in the AIDA Healthy Futures report, some Indigenous doctors may feel pressured to pursue careers in Indigenous health. In this respect, a wider and more sophisticated appreciation of the value of Indigenous doctors needs to be encouraged, highlighting their value as role models, mentors and leaders in their community as well as their highly skilled, holistic and unique contribution to medicine in a range of areas.

Almost all Indigenous medical students surveyed in [the Healthy Futures] project were disappointed with the lack of Indigenous content in the medical curriculum and the inappropriateness of that content.

Scholarships: The provision of scholarships as an incentive to increase the recruitment of Indigenous people into postgraduate training such as public health and research. A successful example of this is in New Zealand, where public health scholarships are offered to increase Maori participation in this field.



Lurch, Im also a bit confused by your stats. Perhaps you could just spell it out for us.

Great topic Fire Tom

clap


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:It wasn't really that big of a deal, I was just agreeing that it is weird for natasqi's article to claim 21% of the non-aboriginal population is doctors. Now that might not be what it's saying at all but that's sure what the wording sounded like.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, its good question.

Why is 21% of the non-aboriginal population doctors?

I suggest that one reason why 21% of the non-aboriginal population are doctors is because the population of non-Indigenous people in remote communities is small, in comparison to a large Indigenous population.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks for that Lurch, great info. Personally I would have thought there would be more Doctors/ population.... But there are, if we are NOT talking about medical doctors only... wink

 Written by: AIDA

According the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (2003) there were 80 Indigenous doctors compared to 40,095 non-Indigenous doctors in Australia in 2001 (AIHW, 2001 Census). Indigenous doctors account for .02% of the Indigenous population in comparison to non-Indigenous doctors who account for 21% of the non-Indigenous population.[ii] This indicates that:



... according to these numbers there are only (get's a calculator) 200.000 ppl living in OZ (which so obviously isn't the case). It should read "2.1% of the non-indigenous...."

Still what the report wants to express is, that there are 100 times more doctors within the white population, than within the native population. Wonder how these figures look like in the US... umm wink

Which is one important issue: professional qualification/ education of indigenous people. Guess it's just easier to hand them a bottle of booze than a book and teach them how to read.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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natasqi


natasqi

addict
Location: Perth

Total posts: 489
Posted: Written by: Stone


I would like to be proved wrong here, but I think Im like a lot of Australians who are willing to donate to many good causes, but dont do much to support Indigenous people.

...

So, the question is, how do you think people like me can make a worthwhile contribution. One idea I had was we could get involved by sponsoring a Doctor, a medical team or even a remote community.





Well, I think I agree with your first observation. I think one reason is because many Australians do have a skewed version of how things are and think "Well, in Australia we have welfare etc, so we have all the facilities and then it's up to the person" where as in Africa, they DON'T have this access, therefore people are more likely to give money somewhere it is 'easier' to fix I guess...
*shrugs*
And also (kinda addressing your second point).. it IS so easy to help overseas, there are millions of organisations that focus on lots of different things, specific or broad, and we see it all the time on TV or in the city as fundraisers etc.

And it's not publicised how you can help in Australia...

So at first I was stumped... there's no 'sponsor a child' kinda thing (to my knowledge), they don't need goats, water wells etc... Since it is such a social problem, and not just a 'they need a school' it's hard to see where outsiders can help.

I went back to the Oxfam Close the Gap website and they only had "sign the pledge" or "write to government" which aren't the kind of things people usually do.

It's quite true that 70% of health problems stem from other issues such as poverty, employment or education.

There is a donation form on the NACCHO website...
"The National Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisation (NACCHO) is the national peak Aboriginal health body representing Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Services throughout Australia. An Aboriginal Medical Service (AMS) is a primary health care service initiated and operated by the local Aboriginal community to deliver holistic, comprehensive, and culturally appropriate health care to the community which controls it (through a locally elected Board of Management). "

NACCHO has been really really well planned and implemented and probably is the best chance towards increased health outcomes.

So I guess this is the best way that services are going to be pointed to the most urgent areas and will be provided in culturally appropriate ways.

(It really sucks that this had to be created non-governmentally because I guess all their funding would come from grants etc...)

SO yeah.. IMHO.. I guess NACCHO would be the best place for focussed donations.

It's not the attractive cute, warm fuzzy feeling of sponsoring a child in Ethiopia, but it's the most effective way to help that I have found (in the limited time I've searched.. I have an exam tomorrow.. maybe I'll look again after it!)

That's healthwise.. I'm sure there are equal education, poverty, employment based programs/organisations as well.

Ok, going to study now!!


ubbrollsmile


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