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Forums > Social Discussion > Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?

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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

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Posted:Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?



Can anyone please direct me towards a theory of intelligent design the dose not involve the disregarding of evolution. I'm am very interested in the subject but for the life of me I cant find any theorys on intelligent design that stand up on there own without bringing into the discussion on how other theorys are wrong.



What I am looking for is a theory that stands up on its own without the need to discredit other theorys so I can make my own mind up.



(I am not a believer of intelligent design but am very disappointed in all the information I have found on it how can they even consider being taken seriously if they dont have a theory that stand up on its own)



or am I mistaken and intelligent design is not a theory (as many would have you believe) and it is just a critique of other theorys of how live came into being and how we have the diversity we see today.





I dont want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (thats hear)


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:It's a critique.

"intelligent design" is what they started calling "creationism" to make it sound more scientific and therefore to give it some sort of standing to be taught in schools under science, rather than under religion. Why? To discredit evolutionism.

The way I see it is that creationism is the theory, but intelligent design is the critique.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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jarle
GOLD Member since Mar 2007

jarle

Lv15 Ranger
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 1489
Posted:One of my uni classes this year is 'History of Ideas', which is basically a history of philosophy/science.

You may want to read about a guy called 'Linnaeus' - a 'natural philosopher' (scientist) during the Enlightenment period, his main aim in life was to uncover the system by which God had created the world. To this end, he set about classifying life left and right and putting them into an order known as the 'Chain of Being' (he didn't make this, though I think he made a few improvements).

He was quite religious and beleived that God had created a single a single animal for each genus (small group of similar species) and that the individual species were due to adaptation to the local environment - a process God did.

I'm no expert on the subject, but I hope it helps!


Kupo!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Intelligent Design is neither a theory nor a critique.

It's bulldroppings.

By even paying attention to it you do it too much credit.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol Mint, done a search? wink

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/484021


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted: Written by: Mint Sauce


I'm am very interested in the subject but for the life of me I cant find any theorys on intelligent design that stand up on there own without bringing into the discussion on how other theorys are wrong.



Unfortunately, the basic premise of all the Intelligent Design arguments I've read pretty much goes like this:
"You might be wrong, therefore I'm right".
Seems like the only reason it exists is to discredit evolution.

It's not a theory because it makes no testable or observable predictions. It's not a critique because it certainly doesn't provide an accurate review of any information or literature -- though it does tell a lot of lies about scientific "facts", as well as flagrantly mis-quoting Charles Darwin amongst other scientists.

It's a belief. Pure and simple.
And it should stop dressing up in science's clothes -- they really don't suit it.


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Mint Sauce,

Its a very good question.

 Written by:

Can anyone please direct me towards a theory of intelligent design the dose not involve the disregarding of evolution?




I think the theory you seek, is contained in a book called the Bible. On the first day .. Genesis, Chapter One.

wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:I think the theory you seek, is contained in a book called the Bible. On the first day .. Genesis, Chapter One.



actualy even that isn't uncontested theres a non-chrisian group in america who are also avid inteligent design suporters. however they think that the "inteligence" was aliens who came down to earth created hummans (and the egypten pyramids) then buggered off biggrin



and i know where your comeing from mint sauce i spent ages looking for something similar a while back but unforutnaly it doesn't seem to exist.



i think the reason it doesn't exists is as follows inteligent design is basicly a rebranded verision of creationism. it was rebranded to try and make it non-religiou enough to push into public schools. however to do that they have had to remove all religous refrences and material from the theory.



unfortunatly for them thats pritty much all of it leaveing them with only vauge refrences to some intelgience and alot of hand waveing smile

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Sambo_Flux
GOLD Member since Jun 2006

Sambo_Flux

Introverted
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 833
Posted: Written by: Invader Xan

Seems like the only reason it exists is to discredit evolution.



Agreed. I think it's also worth noting that most current thinking on Intelligent Design originates from The Discovery Institute, an american "think tank" dedicated to legitimising this weak pseudo science and pushing for it to be taught in schools. The website is obviously very polished (these people have a lot of money to throw around), and even denies being a religious organisation (in the FAQ section).

Doing a little digging however will turn up the fact that the institute itself was deliberately founded to deploy the Wedge Strategy. Scary stuff. And here is the Discovery institutes official response. They call it an "urban myth", then fully admit publishing it. Meh?

ID isn't a critique, or a theory in itself. It's a thinly disguised attack on a fundamental principle of modern science, propogated by people who are too indoctrinated and scared to allow any other way of thinking. This type of fundamentalism is dangerous, and I have serious issues with ID being taught in science classrooms, other than to be ridiculed. In RE classes, fine, not a problem, but it's NOT SCIENCE.

Grrrrrr. This really gets my heckles up.


My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean

If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Ummm no, intelligent design is that there was a divine maker who set things in motion. Period. The Original Mover.

Intelligent Design is NOT mutually exclusive of evolution.

Intelligent Design is NOT creationism.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:How is it not creationism? How is it different?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Sambo_Flux
GOLD Member since Jun 2006

Sambo_Flux

Introverted
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 833
Posted:I thought the premise of ID was that it doesn't have to be a god, merely an intelligent designer, or designers. In fact, ID proponents avoid religious terms, on the grounds that ID ISN'T a religious idea.

So how come you're using the word "divine" Faith? That's a religious term.


My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean

If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:So why was intelligent design coined by the churchies if it's not about a god?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Sambo_Flux
GOLD Member since Jun 2006

Sambo_Flux

Introverted
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 833
Posted:It's churchiness in disguise!



*plays transformers noise*



It's more about discrediting Darwin. I note that it's generally only evolution that gets attacked by the religious right. I reckon it's because evolution is the only scientific theory that DIRECTLY contradicts the bible. The churches can't have millions of kids running around thinking that a sound scientific theory that directly contradicts their religious beliefs is the correct one, so they invent a plausible "alternative", dress it up in scientific language, teach it in Science classrooms, and suddenly creationism doesn't seems so ridiculous to the kids anymore. And George Bush supports this. *shudder*



Faith: If Intelligent design is not exclusive of Evolution, why then do nearly all the major proponents of it (especially the ones with doctorates) insist on attacking evolution and coming up with ideas like "irreducible complexity" to discredit it?

smile

EDITED_BY: Sambo_Flux (1188921233)


My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean

If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:thats pretty much how i see it too. it's a scam. like the nigerian lottery wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Creationism is that God created it all in 7 days.

I used divine because I am catholic. Use the spagetti monster if you want to

Because there are always quacks out there and those are the ones that are most vocal


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Um, can't access the last link Sambo! Would like to read it, sounds interesting.

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Irreducible complexity I believe, could be wrong, is that there is a first mover, the watchmaker. The programmer for an AI software.

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted:See? The idea in itself is quite interesting, when taken as a philosophical (if not strictly religious) concept. But it isn't science, and it irks me that it pretends to be. If anything, it's a philosophy.

Though when people start to have faith in a philosophy, it starts to look a lot like a religion...


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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Sambo_Flux
GOLD Member since Jun 2006

Sambo_Flux

Introverted
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom

Total posts: 833
Posted:Faith, not quite, that's the idea of ID as a whole. Irreducible complexity is an argument used by ID Scientists to discredit evolution. Here's an explanation:




And here's why it shouldn't be taught in schools.




My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean

If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I never felt that evolution was a direct contradict to my religious beliefs growing up as a Catholic. I agree, I think its more about discrediting Darwin. From my point of view, I just dont think Darwins religious contemporaries ever got over the fact that he suggested they were closely related to monkeys. Id suggest they thought they were created specially by god, and considered themselves vastly superior to all other creatures on the planet.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Fire_Moose
SILVER Member since May 2007

Fire_Moose

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Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA

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Posted:i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted:Those are my thoughts entirely...

"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:poje

i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?



its a nice idea but that still contradicts what the evidence and current theorys regarding evolution. the problem is if we assume evolution is correct. which has been increadably convinceingly estabished over the last 150 years, i meen it predicted the discovery of genetics amongst other things. then we are left with only one posable role for god to play.



to put it simply if evolution is true then this is what god did at most



first god creates a single simple self replicateing chemical and puts it on earth. Then over then next four and a half billion years he creates tiny point mutations but is very carful to ensures that the point mutations are statisicaly indistinguisable from what we would expect to see if the mutations were occureing at random.



but heres the kicker non of it was needed god is totaly pointless in this process it would have happend perfectly well without his intervention



this is the threat to religion evolution posess. evolution doesn't disprove the existance of god it just shows he is a totaly unnecessary part of it.

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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

veteran
Location: Lancs England

Total posts: 1453
Posted:Thanks Sambo_Flux these made for some very interesting reading.



Wedge Strategy.



official response



and FireTom did you even read my original post or just the title??



 Written by: Mint Sauce



I dont want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (thats hear)







 Written by: Sambo_Flux





*plays transformers noise*







LOL (a lot) very good



 Written by: Sambo_Flux





I reckon it's because evolution is the only scientific theory that DIRECTLY contradicts the bible.







Humm not sure there are lots of thing in the bible that Science has proved wrong but I think evolution is such a big and still developing theory that they think they can pull it apart.



Example: at 01:02 (or 06:40 depending if its countting down or up??)




before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks

this is the threat to religion evolution posess. evolution doesn't disprove the existance of god it just shows he is a totaly unnecessary part of it.



Not necessarily true. Perhaps God wrote the rule book and evolution is the game...


FYI...
Darwin's original theory was the theory of Natural Selection not evolution. In fact, in his book Origin of Species he only used the word once -- on the final page.

Natural selection is proven fact. Humans have been using it for a long time! If God created wolves, it was man who bred them into collies, dalmations and poodles (as well as breeding all kinds of other plants and animals).


Actually, Creationism makes more sense to me than ID. Any scientist worth listening to will tell you that the big puzzles (where the universe came from and how life even started) are still open.


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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jarle
GOLD Member since Mar 2007

jarle

Lv15 Ranger
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 1489
Posted: Written by: Invader Xan


Natural selection is proven fact. Humans have been using it for a long time!



Actually, humans use artificial selection, which is slightly different in name and purpose - artificial selection is used by humans to continue traits that are useful to us and eliminate those that aren't.

Natural selection occurs due to what people think of as 'survival of the (genetically) fitest. In other words, the predators that are able to catch more prey have more food, impress the ladies and have more babies (ouch, horrible rhyme... BAD Jarle!). Prey on the other hand; those that are better able to run away or stay hidden are more likely to mate, and thus pass on their genes to the next generation.

Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow. However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten - natural selection by a human cause!


Kupo!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted: Written by: jarle

Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten



Snow all year round? eek
Bloody global warming. Now we hardly ever get snow ubbcrying

However, as i know that this is actually true, I cant complain.

Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere. wink


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Invader Xan
SILVER Member since May 2005

Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away, U...

Total posts: 479
Posted: Written by: jarle


Actually, humans use artificial selection, which is slightly different in name and purpose - artificial selection is used by humans to continue traits that are useful to us and eliminate those that aren't.


Well corrected. smile
Either way, my point is that we've been shaping evolution for a long time. It's reasonable to assume it's a process that takes place just as readily in our absence.


 Written by: UnderControlOrFailure


Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere. wink


Depends what city you're talking about! ubblol


"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted: Written by: UnderControlOrFailure


 Written by: jarle

Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten



Snow all year round? eek
Bloody global warming. Now we hardly ever get snow ubbcrying

However, as i know that this is actually true, I cant complain.

Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere. wink



actually this moth scenario was because the moths lived on elm trees which had white bark, the soot rested on the trees making them darker and the white ones stood out wink not snow related at all but the general point is correct


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted: Written by: Invader Xan


Perhaps God wrote the rule book and evolution is the game...





That's kind of my belief about it. Darwin was a Christian, later in his life his belief in Christianity and the literal meaning of the Bible subsided, he lost the belief that God intervened directly in the world, but he never denied or refuted the existence of God (I checked on Wikipedia! rolleyes Was pretty sure Darwin believed in God, despite some of his contemporaries viewing his theories as heresy).


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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