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Mint Sauce
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Posted:Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?



Can anyone please direct me towards a theory of intelligent design the dose not involve the disregarding of evolution. I'm am very interested in the subject but for the life of me I cant find any theorys on intelligent design that stand up on there own without bringing into the discussion on how other theorys are wrong.



What I am looking for is a theory that stands up on its own without the need to discredit other theorys so I can make my own mind up.



(I am not a believer of intelligent design but am very disappointed in all the information I have found on it how can they even consider being taken seriously if they dont have a theory that stand up on its own)



or am I mistaken and intelligent design is not a theory (as many would have you believe) and it is just a critique of other theorys of how live came into being and how we have the diversity we see today.





I dont want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (thats hear)


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:Invader Xan - Either way, my point is that we've been shaping evolution for a long time. It's reasonable to assume it's a process that takes place just as readily in our absence.



exacly true and thats my point just as evolution would continue perfectly well in our absence, so to would it continue perfectly well in the absence of god.



this is the problem before evolution god was the only explanation for our existance there for our existance was proof of god. untill evolution this was always the number one reason for beleaveing in a god.



since evolution though thats no longer true its no longer a case of we need god to explain life. its now a case of life was bound to happen with or without god. but if you want you can bolt god onto the side of the proccess and assume he went to great lengths to cover up his involvment.



now the main problem for very religous people is it shows genissis as writen is wrong, it didn't actualy happen.



this is a huge problem for the bible because it is supposed to be the inerent word of god, it should have no mistakes. If large sections of it are shown to be untrue then it raises the question of wether any of it is true.



this question in combination with the fact we no longer need god to explain the world we live in is the danger for fundimentalists.



by excepting evolution you risk seting off a domino effect that in many cases ends in atheism (it did for me and im very glad it did) this is why people are so threatend by evolution.





The Tea Fairy - Darwin was a Christian, later in his life his belief in Christianity and the literal meaning of the Bible subsided, he lost the belief that God intervened directly in the world



yes this is a posable solution to the problem however it has alot of side effects many people dont relise. for example if this is true then:-



god doesn't answer prayer

jesus wasn't the son of god

the bible was just a book writen by men and nothing to do with god

god didn't care about humans ariseing as a dominant specics we are nothing special in his eyes

god doesn't save people from floods, fires, earthquakes etc

there is no moral code handed down from god

while it might be posable to have an afterlife our only knowlage of it comes from the bible and jesus so were realy just hopeing (we also know nothing about how to get into it).



you have become a deist and you have to beleave that god is no longer a part of our world and hasn't been for 20 billion years we are on our own.



basicly you have define god down to be just the first causes what ever that may be and you can't even be sure that cause had an inteligence.

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


but heres the kicker non of it was needed god is totaly pointless in this process




yup


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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks

now the main problem for very religous people is it shows genissis as writen is wrong, it didn't actualy happen.



It's always the fundamentalists who take issue... shrug

I mean even the Pope has said in the past that Genesis is mostly metaphoric. The thing I always thought was uncanny is -- the order of stuff in Genesis isn't too different to what Cosmology says. The order in which things formed, you know... Light, then ocean, then land, then plants, then animals, then people. If you stretch it over 4.5 billion years instead of 7 days, that's pretty much exactly how it happened. wink


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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Posted:Spot on Rob.

Jarle, I like the thing about the moths. Along the same lines, has anyone seen those mice that live in the London Underground tube lines? You can see them under the tracks at stations sometimes, and they're EXACTLY the same colour as the grey bricks / dirt. Evolution in action.

One thing has been bugging me though: what the hell are the predators? In the wild it would be birds of prey, cats, foxes etc. What is there on the tube that's taking all the non-grey ones out? Grey owls? Grey foxes? What, dammit? And why haven't we seen them? confused smile


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:If you stretch it over 4.5 billion years instead of 7 days, that's pretty much exactly how it happened.



lol what dont be rediculus it gets it compleatly wrong the order in the bible was



earth

light

sky

sea

plants

stars, sun, moon

birds and sea creatures

reptiles and land animals

hummans



when it should have been

sky

light

stars

sun

earth

moon

sea

plants

sea creatures

reptiles

land animals (mammels)

birds

hummans



wink



and even if it was correct my point would still stand if you start reading parts of the bible as fictional metafor why shouldn't you read the whole thing as fictional metafor.



why not treat the bible and everything in it as we treat any other book. mobi dick is an excelent book but we dont beleave the charictors in it actualy existed or that it actualy happend.



the fundimentalists take issue because they say if you start saying bits of the bible arn't true you have no way of knowing which bits are right and which are wrong and the entire bible loses any meening as a basis for religion. you are then have to admit that the bible is no diffrent than mobi dick, to kill a mocking bird or 1984. it becomes simply another to be interpreted anyway you want to with no interpritation been any more true than any of the other 500,000 interpritations and no way to tell which of them if any is actualy correct.



essentaly it stops been a source of truth and instead becomes a work of fiction.



and on this i agree with them.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

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Posted: Written by: poje



i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?





That is ID



He is the programmer of this all IMO

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Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:whats more complicated god or the universe?

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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Posted:If you consider the universe to be exactly equal to the mind of god, then it follows that they must be as complicated as each other. Or some philosophical bollox.

I think there's possibly 2 versions of ID that can be considered. There's the idea of ID (I think this is what Faith is talking about), which is that an intelligent designer created the universe at the point of the big bang, and designed all the laws of nature (including evolution and survival of the fittest), where life is the natural result the right conditions. I have no problem whatsoever with this idea. However, again it's not science, as it's completely hypothethetical and non-testable. I'll accept it as soon as someone comes up with a workable experiment to test for the existence of a designer, but until then, it can only remain as conjecture.

The other type is the bastardized version that the religious right want to get taught in schools. This version is the idea that the intelligent designer somehow conjured the whole universe into being completely whole, including us. This version, assuming that the time of creation is akin to the biblical creation, IS at adds with evolution, as it completely ignores all the evidence that we evolved over millions of years. This is the one I object to, on the grounds that it's unmitigated guff.

Neither version is scientific, but the first one has merit as a plausible philosophical idea. The 2nd is creationist garbage, and should be ridiculed, outlawed, and cast down amongst the lepers, sodomites, and people who watch Big Brother. wink


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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

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Posted:I dont understand how that second one works. If everything was created at once then humans lived with dinosaurs. Same with creationism, is the time before humans just...ignored?

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:If you consider the universe to be exactly equal to the mind of god, then it follows that they must be as complicated as each other. Or some philosophical bollox.



but if god is as complicated as the universe then he has limits he couldn't for example imagin the universe then at the same time think ohh i so glad i invented beavers. meening he isn't all powerfull or omnipitent he has limits and given that the very defintion of god is he is limitless. to say he is as complicated as the universe is to say god doesn't exists.



so i'll ask again whats more complicated god or the universe?

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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Posted:Poje: Yup. That's why it's guff. It flies in the face of all the evidence.



The people who believe this are also the people who believe "Dinosaur fossils were put there to test my faith". And keeping with Bill Hicks here: "Is anyone else slightly uneasey with the idea that God might be... you know... F**KING WITH OUR HEADS!!!".



ubblol

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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

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Posted:Hell, I'm a taoist. As far as I'm concerned most peoples' ideas of a "God" are actually about the universe. tongue

"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:then why call it god why not simply avoid the confusion and call it the universe?

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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

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Posted:Yeah, pretty much... The following from Wikipedia (again rolleyes)...

"The wide spectrum of such beliefs includes young Earth creationism holding a very literal interpretation of Genesis, while old Earth creationism accepts geological findings but rejects evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are compatible with popular scientific opinions on evolution and the age of the Earth."

And...

Flood geology (also creation geology or diluvial geology) is a prominent subset of beliefs under the umbrella of creationism that assumes the literal truth of a global flood as described in the Genesis account of Noah's Ark. For adherents, the global flood and its aftermath is believed to be the origin of most of the Earth's geological features, including sedimentary strata, fossilization, fossil fuels, submarine canyons, salt domes, and frozen mammoths. As such, flood geology directly contradicts the current conventional theories in scientific disciplines such as geology, evolutionary biology and paleontology.

"Young Earth creationists regard Genesis as providing a historically and scientifically accurate record for the geological history of the Earth and believe that there exists evidence that can back up the historicity of the flood. However, creationist presentations of what they believe is evidence are routinely dismissed out-of-hand by the scientific community and as such flood geology is considered pseudoscience."


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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks



then why call it god why not simply avoid the confusion and call it the universe?





I already do! wink



What, you think I believe in Intelligent Design? rolleyes Not bloody likely! ubblol I'm a scientist!



I was using the word "God" for the purposes of discussion only...

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

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Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy


For adherents, the global flood and its aftermath is believed to be the origin of most of the Earth's geological features, including sedimentary strata, fossilization, fossil fuels, submarine canyons, salt domes, and frozen mammoths.





uhhh submarines were not invented that long ago.


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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:no i dont think you do correct me if im wrong (as i very well might me) but as i understand it taois dont beleave in a god.



but what i was geting at is when people say god they dont meen the universe they meen an inteligent all powerful entitiy that created the universe and everything in it. which is a very diffrent thing from the universe



im saying the definition you gave is not the common understanding of the word as people use it.

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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

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Posted:Taoism is non-theistic. In other words, some similar beliefs are there, but none of these things are tied to an anthropomorphic deity. Exactly as you've been saying, why should they need to be?



The basic premise is strikingly similar though. An all pervasive force that is everywhere and yet nowhere at the same time... Just that one religion gives it a face and calls it God, while the other admits that it could never have a face, and calls it the Tao (Buddhists generally do refer to it as the 'Universe', mind you).



But this is all getting horribly far off topic here... Sorry about that. I really shouldn't get dragged into these discussions... rolleyes


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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


to say he is as complicated as the universe is to say god doesn't exists.



Hehehe.... OK, well how about the multiverse theory. (The one where there are an infinite number of universes, where all possibilites at the sub-atomic level are played out). If there are an inifinite amount of universes, and God is equivalent to all of them, then a) god is infinite b) we have free will in that the choices we make determine the universe we're in, and c) god has a plan for everybody, because he already has all possibilities mapped out in all universes.

So that would make our universe infinitely LESS complicated than God. Maybe.

The other alternative is this is the deranged ramblings of a person who is WAY too bored at work.

ubbloco


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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

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Posted:Whats it called when you beleive there is a god but he plays no role in our lives?

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:thats Deism where god doesn't interfer



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism





thats what i'ed say that the universe is infinatly less complicated than god which leaves us the question which is more likely



the universe just poping into existance fully formed



or god just poping into existance fully formed



biggrin

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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
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Posted:Man, this kinda conversation shouldn't be happening before 1am and without any alcohol. I feel like I should've been drinking whiskey for a long time... ubblol

"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:maby there should be a minimun alchol limit for this thread biggrin



beerchug

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Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

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Posted:Or another substance.

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Invader Xan
Invader Xan

Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
Location: Over the hills and far away
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Posted:Thus proving that any good conversation requires substance!

"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky

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Sambo_Flux
Sambo_Flux

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Location: Norf London
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Posted:And moving swiftly back on topic... wink

Here is the link that was broken in my earlier post. Evolution for creationists. Class.


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
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Posted:I just accidentally clicked on the Stumbleupon "take to a page recommended by a friend" button, and I ended up at a sick ass video of a chap doing a back flip on a slack wire.



Thats not why Im posting here, its because in typical YouTube video comments style; it all resorted into a slagging match with swearing... talking about evolution.

this is the link



Made me laugh really how it all started off.



(even if you dont read the comments, at least watch the video, its cool smile )

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
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Posted:that was so funny
to school kids arguing sound like hop


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
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Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted: Written by: poje


 Written by: The Tea Fairy


For adherents, the global flood and its aftermath is believed to be the origin of most of the Earth's geological features, including sedimentary strata, fossilization, fossil fuels, submarine canyons, salt domes, and frozen mammoths.





uhhh submarines were not invented that long ago.



ubblol umm Not sure if you meant this in a joking way or not, but just to clear up any potential misunderstanding, they were talking about 'submarine CANYONS' - 'sub' meaning 'underneath' and 'marine' referring to 'the sea' - canyons that lie under the sea, not submarines!


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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
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Posted:not sure how on topic this is but it reflects the Evolution / creationalism divide to a minor extent so I posted in another thread but thought it may have some bearing here too intelligent design vs evolution thread

(did this rather than derail this thread hug its a ways down refering to a watchmaker)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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