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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Should kids get a vote?

Definitely in two minds. And if it were to be brough in, then I think there would need to be an age limit as well; a 16 year old is going to have a more informed vote than a 5 year old.

 Written by: Thornley


"A family of five or six has no more say in our democracy than a couple of two - yet their needs and potential contribution are greater.


this really bothers me, but I can't quite put my finger on why. I suppose it's because the number of kids you have should have nothing to do with your needs.
I also think that there is a big political swing in this. Sorry to be stereotypical, but with the number of kids per family decreasing because more women are chosing a career over raising lots of kids, then it's a certain demographic of family who is going to have lots of kids (assuming one family member theyre staying home). More votes to religion where contraception is banned?

 Written by: Thornley


"So, we could consider parents being given the responsibility to cast additional votes on behalf of their kids until the kids turn 18 when they cast their own vote."


Nothing, absolutely nothing is going to stop the parents from forming their own political agendas here. Many people vote differently to their parents (I vote differently to my mother, and before I was old enough to vote I would have voted differently to my father, even though currently we vote the same).

Sure, some parents our there would be responsible enough to discuss the options and candidates and policies with their children, and kudos to them for it. But many will just force ideas down their kids' throats. And that is NOT democracy.

relevant side information:
when I was 16 I voted in a referendum to make Australia a republic. (As you would have noticed; we lost it) I still remember my father handing the ballot paper to me and saying "it's your future more than mine". And I believe that if more young people had voted in that referendum (Australia has an ageing population) then we'd no longer have a foreign head of state. And Dad's right; it's OUR future, not the oldies.

Discuss.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I was thinking-watch out smile

Many adults talk about who they want to vote for, but don't because they don't want to "waste" their vote. Kids hear this. They don't hear necessarily the why but know who their families really want to vote for

Maybe it's an oppurtunity for the idealism that we have in our home to show by having kids vote


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:i dont think kids should get the right to vote they simply arn't ready for it.



think about how easly manipulated and guilable kids are do you realy want to encorage groups with polical agendas to start going after kids??



wouldn't take long you'ed have anti-abortion campainers out side schools, same for people who want to ban gays etc. haveing a large group of very suggestable people with the right to vote is asking for trouble



giveing kids the votes would be bad not just for democrocy but for the kids as well. let them watch from the side lines until the've got more experiance.

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brittle
GOLD Member since May 2006

brittle

member
Location: leicester, uk

Total posts: 131
Posted:I think maybe that "kids" should be given the right to vote, however Eera is right there are some issues that doesn't effect "kids" like tax and stuff. I believe that there should be a separate vote for "kids" weather it counts for half a vote or another section on the government it would still make a difference. HMMmmm actually thinking about that however "kids" are represented from my experience they arnt going to be heard so the best way would to be giving them a power that can change the government, that way the government will think more about pleasing them. And face it for the degenerates that would ruin the vote well, too much of a waste of time for them, they would either not be bothered or be too busy killing themselves slowly though excessive smoking / drugs / drinking / beating each other up to try and prove them selves to others (but thats another issue)
its all very 50:50 maybe the power to vote should be earned by children by merit or grades???


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:longitudinal studies of the current education system show that children pretty much stop developing as far as reasoning ability goes after about year nine. Then, the next jump in reasoning ability only happens if the students enrol in philosophy..

The gullibility of the general voting population has been proven in Australia - and thats restricted to people of voting age!

So yeah - I dont think the 'impressionable minds' argument stacks up - especially consdering the evidence of how impressionable adults are. Also bear in mind, we allow people who are highly removed from, normal life and issues eg 80+ pensioners to vote, perhaps we should only give them a 1/2 vote too? Why should they get to make decisions that on average will not affect them in 2 or so years time...


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:my above post about reasoning ability development is according to measures of real world reasoning ability as required by democracy, and social responsibility - if you know this can you know that etc type questions.



Obviously our society is really good at training specific reasoning ability eg architects, mechanics, scientists, doctors. unfortunately while general reasoning ability helps in the specific realm, the specific realm doesnt help as much in the general realm - which is why we have people who can diagnose some weird disease, but take up smoking, and have unprotected sex etc etc

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted: Written by: PsyRush


Hmm i wonder if you'd get some really politically inclined people having millions of babies just so that they get more votes?




eek ubblol ubblol ubblol

what an image!

ubblol ubblol


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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:A capitalistic view I know but surely giving children the right to vote is giving them the option to decide who gets to spend taxpayers money they haven't yet contributed to... until a child has left the protective influence of their parents do you think they can truely understand the social and economic pressures upon an individual and make a choice based on ALL the facts? I imagine a few can but not that many.

I feel there should be a uniform age for children and adults 16-18 I haven't decided what I think it should be yet but that is the age where, you can vote, drink, smoke, pay tax but also you cannot be charge adult costs for buses, amusement parks, cinema etc.

I feel adult age is bandied around to get most profit for the people deciding it why pay adult fares on public transport if you're not considered old enough to drive? or pay tax? why be allowed to pay tax when you aren't allowed to vote and decide where that tax goes? I understand in this age of consumerism when you buy things you are paying some form of tax albeit indirectly.

why not set an adult age and if an individuals "adult" birthday falls within the term of the government being voted for let them vote as they will be an adult under a government they have had no control over electing it's better than giving the right to vote to toddlers or their parents.

I honestly think the best point in this thread so fars is Docs clap


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:yeah but we dont dish out representation (at least explicitly) on the basis of who has paid the most tax. many people go right through life paying tax, but not thinking about who they vote for, and others vote without paying much / any tax.

tax is/should be income based but should democracy?


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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
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Posted:Apologies I see what you mean but children are exempt on the grounds of age, not financial status. it is convoluted I'll admit but because a child has the possibility to do well in the furture does that entitle them to a vote?



This may sound harsh but has the child earnt a right to vote yet? and if so / not what actually constitues a right to vote? there is the main stumbling block, it it age, citizenship, where you live (slightly different) natioanl support, financial status, IQ or intellect, race (it was an issue a while ago), gender (as was this) or a number of other (probably more important) things I believe (may be wrong) that commiting certain crimes in some countries revokes your right to vote, and I think prisoners in the UK have been allowed to vote as a human right (it may have gone the other way I haven't checked, sorry) does a child fulfil the criteria or can it not be divisive this way?



I have to agree that just because your family household is larger it doesn't entitle you to more political power, why should house A have more political influence than house B purely because they have more children.

I don't think more political power should be given to people who are unable to plan their own families (obviously not ALL large familys are as such but I was pointing out a weakness in the theory)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:How do you earn a right to vote?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

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Posted:exactly wink 1 instance is citizenship earnt by being born in a country. I don't mean earn as in do a service but I couldn't vote on who is prime minister of Australia could I, but have I got more right than a child born there? I have family in Oz they are in the commonwealth and an ally of my country I have the faculties to look at the candidates and there arguments and make an informed choice is that better than living there without a clue as to the political nature of the person being voted for?



also why should a date decide if you can vote? tuesday you can't but friday you can?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:tat brings up another interesting point though; allies voting for each other?

because if countries are allies, then ultimately, the foreign relations decisions of one government are going to affect another.

do i need to mention the obvious examples here?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:kids can start working and paying taxes early on. My brother has had a paper route since he was 10 or so. His paycheck has taxes taken out of it. Since he pays taxes should he be able to vote (he's nearly15 now)

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:he pays taxes? over here you don't pay tax on income til 18. and even then, unless you earn a certain amount per year you can claim it all back (which is my category!)

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

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Posted:FIF Really eek when I worked under the age of 16 I didn't have to pay any tax neither did I as a student although I did have to pay natioanl insurance.



if you ask should someone vote you really need to look and see what entitles any person I believe current requirements are age and citizenship. all that is required is for the government to set the requirements and the person to fill them, we'll know we're screwed when politicians vote that only politicians can vote then they'll have jobs for life wink because obviously only they know the politics involved well enough to make an informed decision ubblol


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:well, he can file taxes and get his money back. Well, my mom does it for him.
the paperboy is falling by the wayside. Many deliverers are older and do it to supplement their income.
But he pays state, federal, social security. His paycheck looks like any other americans


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
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Posted:wow sucks to be a working child in the US

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:Pyrolific

longitudinal studies of the current education system show that children pretty much stop developing as far as reasoning ability goes after about year nine. Then, the next jump in reasoning ability only happens if the students enrol in philosophy..





are you seriously suggesting that philosophy students are the only people with reasoning capacitys beond that of a nine year old??



that sounds like a load of rubish frankly can you cite the study for me



or was that a joke i've taken to seriously (its happended before biggrin)?

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:year nines are about 14-15



no I cant cite the study for you - its been a while since I tutored that course (educational philosophy), and frankly if you don't know enough about the topic to even be able to start looking up research - it doesn't really bother me. I'm too busy to try to convince you by doing a lit review for you.



If you had marked uni student's essays from courses that don't specifically train reasoning you'd know what I'm on about. Most adults in our community have a quite limited range of ability when it comes to tests of generalised reasoning. Additionally the education system is currently training every person to think that every argument is valid (teachers seem to confuse valid with valued...big mistake) as its the person's opinion (also a mistake).



PS - no not only philosophy students - I'm talking a statistically significant difference in reasoning ability. ie - there are a few people out there that read books on the topic or have a particular interest in reasoning who train themselves, but its not a large enough group to sample (and how would you define it as a group anyhow?).

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:how about other sciences? do they develop greater reasoning or show a statistically improve ability to reason? they do spend time think through problems quite a lot and have to approach subjects for several angles.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:should childeren be allowed to vote???


HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLllll NO!!!!!


just this week two people, one a father of three and the other a 23 year old programmer where both kicked to death by a group of teenagers. the mentality of most teenagers now is so messed up!!!


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: ravehead


just this week two people, one a father of three and the other a 23 year old programmer where both kicked to death by a group of teenagers. the mentality of most teenagers now is so messed up!!!



Yeah, because adults would NEEEEVER do such a thing... rolleyes


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
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Posted:point to doc lightning ubblol

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:sure adults would do it doc but only one or two people beating on someone where as teenegers you could be talking upto 15 people all beating on someone. they mob you big time and odds would be one of them would video it on their mobile and post it on youtube ubblol

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh no, when adults do it, they do it BIGGER, BETTER, FLASHIER, AND WITH LIGHTS!!!! (and sometimes gas chambers).

I give you: The Nazi Party, the Hutus vs. the Tutsis, the former Yugoslavia, etc., etc., etc., and etc.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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TastesLikePurple
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

TastesLikePurple

addict
Location: Nottingham, United Kingdom

Total posts: 498
Posted:give kids the vote?

so we should let them make a contribution to a major democratic decision (not that they no what a democracy is) before they even understand where babies come from? hmm dunno about everyone else, but my logic says NO!

besides, if the parents give a vote on behalf of the child until they're 18 and able to vote for themselves, what's the point of even having an age limit? and the parent could abuse this additional vote by voting again for what they wanted and not what the kid wanted. (not that the kid knows what it wants anyway because they are a kid and for the most part are politically ignorant.)


Thoughts arrive like butterflies...

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scosh
BRONZE Member since Aug 2007

scosh

non stop uber rocking electro rock party
Location: hastings, United Kingdom

Total posts: 122
Posted:i can imagine elections becoming just like the junk food idles vote for me because i am pretty colours woohoo i'd fall for it

"im quite depressed, im quite a mess, so beat me up, beat me down, mess me up beyond all recognition"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Scosh, they kinda already are.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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scosh
BRONZE Member since Aug 2007

scosh

non stop uber rocking electro rock party
Location: hastings, United Kingdom

Total posts: 122
Posted:i have never seen sum1 stand up for election in a brightly coloured junk food suit.....sorry frown lol

"im quite depressed, im quite a mess, so beat me up, beat me down, mess me up beyond all recognition"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:No, but have you ever watched the Democratic or Republican National convention? Lots of bright red, white, and blue, lights, effects, baloons, confetti...

...SHOWTIME!!!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Page: 123

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