Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Can we name this move? (bf anti-poly flower)

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yeah so, poi are splittime butterfly, one hand does a logarm circle whilst the other follows it doing a tri-foil antispin.

Its a great move and i would like to call it something better than bf anti-poly flower. and its not really a flower...

sugestions?

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:he knows people are interested really - he's just being cole the troll, trying to distract people with interesting points of discussion in what is obviously meant to be a thread devoted to meaningless arbitrary chest-beating rule-lawyery (or "a terminology discussion")



 Written by: cole

three loops is the minimum number of loops you can spin with a poi in an antispin pattern that starts and ends at the same point.





Really? why not two? because you can't move your hand fast enough? or because its not "proper" antispin then?



accepted staff 1:1 antispin is the diamond shape - eg. 2 loops with either end of the staff.



Also, if both the spin poi and the anti poi are travelling the same distance, i'd have thought that you'd have points rather than loops.



Regarding the actual point of discussion: Can we name this move?

i think we can't, so we should just call it "No"

which introduces a pleasingly paradoxical element.



edit - forgot to include hugs for cole: hug hug hug i miss yoo

EDITED_BY: simian (1183113200)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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BlueHairSarah
newbie

Member Since: 27th Jun 2007
Total posts: 17
Posted: Written by: UnderControlOrFailure


I think Motley means in Wheelchairplane, not wall plane.... I think...
tongue

If you can do those, crossed, in wallplane, I'll eat the first fat person I see.



When I do this guy, I keep my hands crossed at the wrist, which could be considered a crosser in that you don't come out of the arms being crossed thing... but that's a whole different arguement.

I vote for 3:1 butterfly hybrid.


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:oops cole, You best get the ketchup out, I just realised that crosser garthgoof/mercadese/bfhybridgoof is pretty easy as a crosser....

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:*passes Cole the ketchup and quickly runs away*
biggrin


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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:I can just about do a Mercedes ( tongue ) both ways now, but as I do it crossed with hand underneath long arm, it makes the direction switch less neat as I need to spend a beat swapping over frown

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
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Posted:Yakumo - Why swap over? Should work crossed either way. After all, if your hands are together, whether\which way they're crossed is pretty trivial except for aesthetics.
How about crossing at the elbows instead? ubbangel

i don't see the reason for cole needing ketchup confused
crossing arms is nothing to do with whether or not antispin is isolated, or am i missing something?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Yakumo
Yakumo

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Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:I just found the way I can get it to work cleanly, comfortably for me at the moment, is with the hand doing the longarm as the hand underneath, wrists crossed. so when i change direction, as the longarm hand switches from right to left or vice versa, i have to change my crossover over.

yesterday was the first time i'd got it working in both directions reasonably though, so I've plenty of time to experiment to go smile


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UCOF
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Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:simian- you dont see the need for Cole needing Ketchup? Well, me and him do look very similar. So much so, that Nx gets us confused very easily. tongue

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:beerchug

happy bifday youcough smile

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:yepyep - happy birthday jonny-yoo hug



meanwhile, at the supergeekfriends' secret lair...



 Written by: simian



 Written by: cole

three loops is the minimum number of loops you can spin with a poi in an antispin pattern that starts and ends at the same point.





Really? why not two? because you can't move your hand fast enough? or because its not "proper" antispin then?







why not two?

two reasons: because of gravity and because poi are not solid.

same reasons as why you can't make a trammel with poi.



 Written by: simian



Also, if both the spin poi and the anti poi are travelling the same distance, i'd have thought that you'd have points rather than loops.







the loopy-ness of the antispin pattern is dictated by the size of the big circle (the path both hands follow) and by the speed at which you move your hand along that path.

i assume we all agree on that cos its been clearly proved by the god of epicylclic motion, the one and only 'mafamatix'.



so, consider the move symmetrically - i.e. do the big circle one way then the other way.

the possibility that switch itself suggests to me that the poi don't change linear speed and, if that is the case, they must travel the same distance, whether they are doing the spin or the antispin part of the pattern.



having said that, i haven't done the maths so you may well be right that the pointy-bendy-triangle pattern would be equal in distance to the longarm circle rather than the trefoil.

the antispin poi would in that case have to move slightly faster than the other, since the trefoil is a longer path than the pointy-bendy-triangle.

its only a tiny bit longer though, so the antispin poi only has to spin a tiny bit faster.

my point is IF the poi are moving at different speeds, there's still absolutely no way whatsoever that this move is a 3:1 polyrhythm.



i still reckon that the garthybrid is 1:1 but until i can be bothered to work out the path lengths to prove it i won't argue that point too hard smile



if its not 1:1, it'll be some meaningless speed ratio like 1.2:1.

the reason i say ratios like that (i.e. non-integer ratios) are meaningless is because you only spin at those kinds of ratios when the moves themselves create them - you couldn't intentionally spin at that ratio and maintain it through a variety of moves otherwise the poi would end up out of time for every move other than the first one.

tonnes of moves have small speed adjustments like that - its possible that its actually a high majority of moves.

i think the only time its worth considering a move a polyrhythm pattern is when its built on a speed ratio that is made of inetgers (e.g. 2:1, 3:2, 4:3) and thus the move can be linked to other moves that maintain that same polyrhythm.



ergo, the garthybrid is not a polyrhythm whether the trefoil is of equal length to the circle or not meditate tongue





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Foil & Extension(advanced flower).

lightning,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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garthy
garthy

old hand
Location: Bristol, England
Member Since: 22nd Apr 2002
Total posts: 717
Posted: Written by: coleman


yepyep - happy birthday jonny-yoo hug

meanwhile, at the supergeekfriends' secret lair...

 Written by: simian


 Written by: cole

three loops is the minimum number of loops you can spin with a poi in an antispin pattern that starts and ends at the same point.



Really? why not two? because you can't move your hand fast enough? or because its not "proper" antispin then?




why not two?
two reasons: because of gravity and because poi are not solid.
same reasons as why you can't make a trammel with poi.




Why ca't you do a tramle with poi..

There just "not 1.5s" with a full transition with no beats inbetween..

G was doing something like them or very closeat southern lights...

And if your hand folowed a oval type shape you could do a two point antispin move?

And I object to nameing them a "garthy hybrid" for many reasons...

1) I can't actually do the move
2) I'll have to learn it. (Causeif there named after me then people will ask me to do them)
3) I'm fairly sure I just saw Ronen do them and showed Cole badly
4) I'm not entirly sure which move we're talking about.

That's not many but it's enough to be getting on with.

And I like where you're going with the polyrythem distance traveled thing cole...
I'm going to have to think about that a bit...

With atomics you could have different ratios on the different axis... I think...
By moveing them aound and turning the axis...

So you'd have to define polyrythem atomics as (1:1)(1:2)(3:1) biggrin

(This thread rocks in a very Geeky way though)


"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx

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Moloch
Moloch

Shirt-Cocker Extraordinaire
Location: Colorado
Member Since: 26th Dec 2006
Total posts: 47
Posted:Disregarding the body, the poi are spinning a flower pattern. And, as the definition of a flower goes, there is no mention of how the body is positioned.
So conclusion #1 is that this move is a flower.

I actually measured it out, its a 5:6 speed ratio.
The big circle being the five, the tri-petal the six.
Cole hit the speed dead on, and so 1.2:1 is a meaningless change of speed, and therefore conclusion #2 is that the poi are not polyrhythmic

The arms are chasing each other, and one is anti-spin and the other is not, so conclusion #3: the flower is goofy.

The poi are spinning opposite, therefore conclusion #4 is that they are spinning butterfly

So the traits so far are goofy butterfly flower. Now what about the fact that the hands are together and it is in front of you on the wall plane? good luck wink Im goin to bed, I wish I had a good set of poi frown
I guess thats tommorrows project


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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
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Posted:its still polyrythmic even if the distance traveled is the same, because the rythum comes from the poi hitting the top/bottom of its arc (or other abitary point, as long as you measure by the same point each time).

So the longarm circle hits top and botto once each per round while the trifoil has two 'circles' (things like this get veeera confusing in antis-pain).

I think its just a classic 2:1 polyrythum, certainly to learn it i spent a lot of time doing just 2:1 and then incorperating the hand movements.

and i dont think its 6:5 or sommit strange like that, because in order to swich you have to start and finnish bang on splittime, and even the slighest sloppyness in timing results in tangle.

Ive got a new name for the family too (of this move, im still not sure what to call it when both wrists describe the same circle) lets call it:

The Isle of Man

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Moloch
Moloch

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Location: Colorado
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Posted:The Isle of Man, the more I try and do the move I like it. I think we should all agree on the name, maybe an HOP poll lolsign Its wickedly hard, but so beautiful. I've only seen Durbs do it 45 seconds into the patio, I wish there was more than one cycle though, then it might be said to be epicyclic weavesmiley as the Cole train said biggrin

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Yakumo
Yakumo

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Location: Oxfordshire
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Posted:http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/778351/Main/768981

durb's wonderful poi on the pato.


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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BlueHairSarah
newbie

Member Since: 27th Jun 2007
Total posts: 17
Posted:See, now... I count polyrhyms by the number of completed circles. The long arm does one full circle, and the other hand does 3- one for each petal. So that would make it a 3:1... Ive never heard of the no. of times it passes a particular point method of counting, and I have noOOoo idea how you got 5 out of the longarm...

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:huh? what's the Isle of Man?

Is it a goofy butterfly flower?

Or is it a goofy butterfly flower when your arms are parallel same direction (like the move we've been discussing) as opposed to butterfly\splittime-butterfly\split-time same direction?

garthy - i reckon i've been having this "you can't 1:1 antispin with poi" argument with cole for over a year now, and he keeps nearly winning until i forget why he's right again... let's hope it goes as well for me as the long running "staff spinning is easy" argument i had with meg biggrin

it wouldn't surprise me in the least if G already had clean 1:1 antispin poi circles (or "ovals\lines" to be more accurate). Oooh i can't wait till play...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
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Posted: Written by: BlueHairSarah

See, now... I count polyrhyms by the number of completed circles. The long arm does one full circle, and the other hand does 3- one for each petal. So that would make it a 3:1... Ive never heard of the no. of times it passes a particular point method of counting, and I have noOOoo idea how you got 5 out of the longarm...



if you do a stall, then move your hand in a circle, the poi head does a "completed circle". Is that a "beat" of the "rythym"? In the same way, how is the little 'petal' my poihead makes in an antispin pattern a "completed circle"? The loops can be accentuated to make them bigger, smaller or even into points. When tiny loops turn into epicylcic points, the poi is suddenly making far fewer 'circles' while not really travelling a much shorter distance (or taking less time or going slower).

and basically, "beats" are kind of arbitrary aren't they? Lots of different ways of counting beats can make sense, depending on what aspect of the timing of the spinning you're trying to describe.

Gosh i'm full of digression aren't i?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:you can get pills for that.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted:oi get out of this forum, traitor ubbloco

wink


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I'm like beetlejuice, somebody says my name and I get to come here and wreck havoc.

<Well everybodies gotta have a dream right?>


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:there are three petals, but made of 2 circles, cos its antispin :P

Isle of Man


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Moloch
Moloch

Shirt-Cocker Extraordinaire
Location: Colorado
Member Since: 26th Dec 2006
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Posted:HAHA i chose that flag for some government, er... that makes no sense ooooops

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Moloch
Moloch

Shirt-Cocker Extraordinaire
Location: Colorado
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Posted:So my friends came up with a name for this move when I was trying to show them the other day... they called it the nutcracker... mad2

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
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Posted:ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:I think almost every move has been called the nutcracker at some point...

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:firstly, cheers for making me think more tom hug

secondly, garthy is right about origin.
i remember i did a polyrhythm workshop at ejc once and this move appeared on my radar the following day.

my memory has recovered itself a bit and it was indeed ronan that first manifested this pattern at the ejc in ireland.
garthy later showed it to me and said something like "you know that 2:1 butterfly with one longarm circle and the other poi doing two wrist circles? if you keep your hands together, you get this thing instead".

so it probably is 2:1 after all.
well done tom hug

but damn if this area of poi isn't confusing at the moment.

 Written by: nx?


its still polyrythmic even if the distance traveled is the same, because the rythum comes from the poi hitting the top/bottom of its arc (or other arbitrary point, as long as you measure by the same point each time).




yepyepyep - that's a great way to define a polyrhythm pattern.
slight disclaimer: agreeing with this point means i don't have to rewrite my polyrhythm thread so i may be slightly biased wink

 Written by: nx?


So the longarm circle hits top and botto once each per round while the trifoil has two 'circles' (things like this get veeera confusing in antis-pain).




this is true and its exactly why i think the overall counting systems are flawed and thus are only useful in certain situations - or should i say 'contexts'? wink

count a 4-petal normal spin (i.e. same direction arms and poi) flower with beats at the bottoms of each arc and your beat count is 5.
count a 4-petal antispin flower like this and your beat count will be 3.
do a goofy flower like this and do you have a polyrhythm?
well that's the burning question ain't it...

beats are called beats because they describe a rhythm.
the reason beats are a useful tool is because you can count them off, in a steady rhythm, to help understand where your hands and poi should be at a particular point in a pattern.
if they described 'completed arcs' or whatever, we would have called them 'arcs' in the first place (and taken a lot longer to learn all the basic moves and even longer to understand them).

the old "one beat for every time the poi rotates 360 degrees" counting system has its place but there are places where it just doesn't cut it any more.
as soon as you find yourself with different or multiple points of rotation in the same pattern, that system falls apart completely and gives nonsensical counts for, what should be, easily described patterns.

nick found a good way to count 'compound circle' patterns ( i.e. fountains, flowers or any other pattern that mixes shoulder circles with wrist circles) a little while back: count every time the poi pass the centre point of the large circle (or every time the poi pass your arms).

with this counting system applied to the 4-petal flowers we were counting earlier, we get a count of 4 for both the normal and antispin versions.
the reason for this is that it removes the addition to or subtraction from the wrist circle count that the rotation about the shoulder contributes.

but this system is not applicable to patterns that mix epicyclic (antispin) and normal (extended circle) motions - to understand these types of patterns, we have to account for both points of rotation and their overall contribution to the pattern.
i.e. go back to the oldschool beat count of 'beats at 6 o'clock'.

take the example of the 4-petal flower once again:
with both poi antispin or both poi normal spin, you can count four equally spaced 'beats' using nick's system.
but reverse just one of the poi directions and the rhythm doesn't fit any more.
to keep the rhythm steady and at a count of 4 before the pattern repeats, you have to either slow down the antispin poi or speed up the normalspin poi.
i.e. to make a goofy flower a 1:1 pattern in terms of loops:circles requires that the poi spin at different speeds - its not the 'natural' pattern any more.

5:3 is the natural pattern in terms of compound circle beats (i.e. counting as they pass your arms).
but if you add the big circles and the little circle together, you get 4:4 - which is 1:1 again.
anyone understand that?
good.

talk to me about it one day and i'll get even more twisted and indecisive about which frame of reference we should take our count from depending on relative poi direction and number of centres of rotation required for the move.

until then i'm going back to my corner to hum and rock some more... ubbloco

cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:lol


cant.... be.... arsed.... worrying... about... this! tongue

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:So just to be clear - it is a Mercedes now then?



Please tell me it's true. i have succeeded in naming a poi move after a character from hollyoaks!




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EDITED_BY: simian (1184324063)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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