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Forums > Social Discussion > A legally charged moralistic question

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Okay.

So, the backstory but the non-issue for this is that two teenage (16yo) girls were part of a youth fireman training program. Evidentally they would hang out at the firestation once their youth program meetings had ended, and other times as well.
Some how it has come out that while "hanging" out they were have intimate relations with a 24yo and a 32yo firemen. Consentually, but in this state 16 is still illegal if you are 18 or over.

Now, yes, there is the myriad of "Where were the parents" "What were they thinking" "Maybe they are simply being horrible accusatory girls" yadda,yadda,yadda

However, this has brought a different thought to mind.
Concidering the self-perceived maturity of kids, concidering the exposure they now have to things of a mature and/or questionable nature do you think the legal age of consent should be lowered?

Back in the 40's and 50's my mother said she could not conceive of many of the things she sees on MTV now-a-days.

Do you think that due to media exposure kids are able to make decisions such as who to be intimate with younger?

I have my opinions on this, which currently slant towards the negative but I am interested to hear your thoughts.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: Pele


Some how it has come out that while "hanging" out they were have intimate relations with a 24yo and a 32yo firemen. Consentually, but in this state 16 is still illegal if you are 18 or over.


If a child is groomed by an adult thats not consent, my understanding from talking with people who have experienced similar situations is that in such cases the child feels they have no other option but to do it. In the same way that a confession made under duress is not valid consent made under pressure is not consent.

 Written by: Pele


Do you think that due to media exposure kids are able to make decisions such as who to be intimate with younger?


no


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:I think the discussion topic should be changed to reflect the question being asked pele, then swarms of people will jump in to throw in their "opinions". wink

Among us, the American youth - in the cities and suburbs it is an a realization that many/most of us are having some sort of sexual relationship/encounter/experimentation before the age of consent (normally 18 in most states and 17 in mine).

I'd tell my story but it's extremely personal and I don't know what eyes are watching. I'll PM you pele.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Something I like to throw in the mix with these things is how many of our grandmothers and greatgrandmothers were married and popping out the kids by 15. They were considered adults as soon as they had their first period and were working as adult members of society, raising kids and all.

Somewhere in between the age rose.

YET

We see the past as the prudish age.

Interesting? Cos I think it is.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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GitasGuy


GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 2303
Posted:No it shouldn't be lowered just because they are exposed to more censored on tv these days. They are still supposed to be children doing childish things not having sex.....

MTV and the likes have a lot to answer for IMO!!! i think its discusting the video clips on tv these days.


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:well to the story - at 16 years old its a tricky one. if i think back to when i was 16... if i hypothetically came across a 24 yr old fireman? - absolutely! ubblol

But to your question. its unavoidable that yes kids in this age of instant information and advertising that they grow up much faster...
but then well i recall reading that the starting age of puberty has estimated to have gone down approx 3 years over the past century?
perhaps this goes hand in hand?


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Funny to have this thread parallel to the child abusers' But it's not the same topic...

Sexual openness/ activity seems to change over and with times, much like global climate. The further you go back in human history, the lower the "age of consent", no?

You can't prevent minors to have sexual contact, as much as you seem unable to ban guns in the US. The US "abstinence only programme" is highly questionable, as it backfired and leaves more young adults with HIV than before.

But you can educate your children about STD's and the results of a censored up life, child pregnancy and messing with ones own mind.

The sexual activity of teenagers has significantly changed over the past few years - along with the attitude towards it. I guess a lot of that has to do with their parents and the environment (internet/ pornography).

Unfortunately the US is (again) having a highly ambiguous position here: on one side the "abstinence only programme" whilst producing xxx movies at the rate of maybe 1 per every 3.5 hrs (estd)...

But wasn't it the US where even (some) sex between married couples is illegal? umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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darkness-before
GOLD Member since Apr 2007

darkness-before

Rock is dead, long live paper and scissors
Location: The sea

Total posts: 197
Posted:I lost any claim of being innocent just after turning 14. I was a clumsy stupid teenager but well aware of the risks, ("if you have underage sex you will catch a disease and you will DIE!" ubblol )
But looking back at my own experience surley its more of a risk as "a dumb uneducated kid" having a sexual relationship with somebody the same age equally dumb and uneducated?
I'm not promoting 32 yr olds messing round with 16 yr olds cus thats just wrong but a 17 year old girl or boy is usually smart enough to make a decision as to whether or not to sleep with a 20 something man or woman. I know 16 year olds who are living by them selves and who are taking care of their own parents in some cases.
Finally I joined the millitary to "fight for my country" at the age of 17, some people in my entry were only 16. If they can make that decision at that age an be given a gun an a uniform and trusted with the lives of there comrades then who's to say they can't have a mature relationship with another consenting ADULT. Thats what they are. Especailly in the USA you can drive and have a gun at what 14 in some states? If you can be trusted not to take a life by your actions then can't you be trusted not to screw yours up?


Eagles may soar but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

Telepath wanted, you know where to apply.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:When I was 17 I had a quick fling with a 30-y-old. Not that he was fighting it, but I was definitely the driving force. Never did me any harm.

Biologically, boys can have sex way younger, and girls can get pregnant at 12 or 13, which means their BODIES are definitely ready by 16. So there remains the question of the mind.

Personally I think 16 is a sensible age. Of course, the next person will say "but so's 15/17/whatever", so someone has to draw a line.

But I absolutely agree with darkness-before. It's ridiculous to be given responsibility for a weapon, or in this case to be trained to run into a burning house and save lives, and not to be trusted with your own sexuality or decisions about alcohol and tobacco.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom


The US "abstinence only programme" is highly questionable, as it backfired and leaves more young adults with HIV than before.




Can you substantiate that or give any links that do?

I can understand how 'abstinence only programmes' could have that effect in, say, Africa, due to the particular situation there, but I'm not aware of it having been shown that they have that effect in the US.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:you can own a gun at age 14 and not to kill, to legally take a life as of 16 in the military - but for to create new life, you have to be older than 18... That's how we battle overpopulation.



Would you think the same teenager (at age 17) would be smart enough to make the decision of whether or not to sleep with a 50 year old? umm



However, initial reason for me posting in extension of my above post: I reckon that the inhibition threshold has significantly lowered within the past 5 - 10 years, due to (mass) media influence. But whether or not that enables kids to make a decision at a younger age? I doubt it.



OWD - I was admittedly lumping both (the inter/national) effects of the US funded programme together with steadily raising HIV infections in both, the US and for say Uganda (where the US government funds national "abstinence only" programmes and gets advised by Human Rights Watch to replace these programmes)... excuse that my words have not been chosen more explicit.



Washington Post article



 Written by: Washington Post

A long-awaited national study has concluded that abstinence-only sex education, a cornerstone of the Bush administration's social agenda, does not keep teenagers from having sex. Neither does it increase or decrease the likelihood that if they do have sex, they will use a condom. (...)



By the end of the study, when the average child was just shy of 17, half of both groups had remained abstinent. The sexually active teenagers had sex the first time at about age 15. Less than a quarter of them, in both groups, reported using a condom every time they had sex. More than a third of both groups had two or more partners. (...)



The federal government spends $176 million a year on abstinence-only education, and millions more are spent every year in state and local matching grants. Harry Wilson, a top official in the Department of Health and Human Services, said yesterday that the administration has no intention of changing funding priorities in light of the results.



"This study isn't rigorous enough to show whether or not [abstinence-only] education works," Wilson said. (...)



One thing they also learned, Trenholm said, was that kids receiving abstinence instruction did not use condoms less often than other kids, a possibility that critics occasionally raise. They also showed slightly better knowledge about the prevention of sexually transmitted disease.



Kids in both groups were knowledgeable about the risks of having sex without using a condom or other form of protection. Knowing that did not mean they put on a condom every time, however. Condom use was not high in either group; of those who had sex, almost half said they used condoms only "sometimes" or "never."


EDITED_BY: FireTom (1181215622)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Pele


Okay.

So, the backstory but the non-issue for this is that two teenage (16yo) girls were part of a youth fireman training program. Evidentally they would hang out at the firestation once their youth program meetings had ended, and other times as well.
Some how it has come out that while "hanging" out they were have intimate relations with a 24yo and a 32yo firemen. Consentually, but in this state 16 is still illegal if you are 18 or over.

Now, yes, there is the myriad of "Where were the parents" "What were they thinking" "Maybe they are simply being horrible accusatory girls" yadda,yadda,yadda

However, this has brought a different thought to mind.
Concidering the self-perceived maturity of kids, concidering the exposure they now have to things of a mature and/or questionable nature do you think the legal age of consent should be lowered?

Back in the 40's and 50's my mother said she could not conceive of many of the things she sees on MTV now-a-days.

Do you think that due to media exposure kids are able to make decisions such as who to be intimate with younger?

I have my opinions on this, which currently slant towards the negative but I am interested to hear your thoughts.



It may be interesting for you to look at places where the age of consent differs from the US-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

has a list of ages of consent for most countries.

I was surprised that, in a lot of places, it's 14 years.

The US age of consent of 18, in most states, is very much not the norm worldwide.

It would be interesting to compare relevant stats (STD's, early pregnancies etc) between countires with high consent (18) and those with low consent (14).

My persoanl feelings, in the UK, is that popualr media like soaps, present a very scewed and dysfunctional view of relationships as being the norm.

i.e. most of the 'interesting' storylines contain relationships that are based on status, deceit or vengance.

Sex is presented as being necessary and an uncontrollable urge, there's an underlying implication that abstainers are inadequate freaks, or at least, boring.

This dysfunctional view of sex is presented as being a mark of maturity.

The soaps in question include Eastenders and Hollyoaks.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom







OWD - I was admittedly lumping both (the inter/national) effects of the US funded programme together with steadily raising HIV infections in both, the US and for say Uganda (where the US government funds national "abstinence only" programmes and gets advised by Human Rights Watch to replace these programmes)... excuse that my words have not been chosen more explicit.



Washington Post article



 Written by: Washington Post

A long-awaited national study has concluded that abstinence-only sex education, a cornerstone of the Bush administration's social agenda, does not keep teenagers from having sex. Neither does it increase or decrease the likelihood that if they do have sex, they will use a condom. (...)



By the end of the study, when the average child was just shy of 17, half of both groups had remained abstinent. The sexually active teenagers had sex the first time at about age 15. Less than a quarter of them, in both groups, reported using a condom every time they had sex. More than a third of both groups had two or more partners. (...)



The federal government spends $176 million a year on abstinence-only education, and millions more are spent every year in state and local matching grants. Harry Wilson, a top official in the Department of Health and Human Services, said yesterday that the administration has no intention of changing funding priorities in light of the results.



"This study isn't rigorous enough to show whether or not [abstinence-only] education works," Wilson said. (...)



One thing they also learned, Trenholm said, was that kids receiving abstinence instruction did not use condoms less often than other kids, a possibility that critics occasionally raise. They also showed slightly better knowledge about the prevention of sexually transmitted disease.



Kids in both groups were knowledgeable about the risks of having sex without using a condom or other form of protection. Knowing that did not mean they put on a condom every time, however. Condom use was not high in either group; of those who had sex, almost half said they used condoms only "sometimes" or "never."







It is important to differentiate between abstinance programs in the US and in Africa, due to the very different cultures, conditions and education levels.



Thanks for clarifyfing Tom.



From what i see in your quote above, it seems the US abstinence programs have been a success?



Not in the sense that they've led to more actual long-term abstinence, but in the sense that they've not led to increased HIV (a common fearand critisism of abstinance programs) and that those who've gone through them and yet chosen to have sex, have done so with condoms (to the same extent as those not in the programs) and with a slightly better understanding of STD's.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well that's not even a matter of disgression, I'd say.

I would resume the programme (in the US) to have failed.

"By the end of the study, when the average child was just shy of 17, half of both groups had remained abstinent. The sexually active teenagers had sex the first time at about age 15. Less than a quarter of them, in both groups, reported using a condom every time they had sex. More than a third of both groups had two or more partners."

How could it be called a success then?

Presuming that sexuality plays a bigger role in groups with lower education, I'd say the money spent would be better invested on programs educating children about sex/ STD's in general and improving the educational system - but that's just my personal view on it.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I always assume the legal age of consent is 18. I don't care that it's as young as 14 in New York. It's 18 to me. And always will be.

One thing to remember is that it may not be the firemen's ideas. Oh sure they could exercise some judgement and say no, but still, it's hard to say no when someone who is young and attractive throws themselves at you. Especially if it's legal.

But gosh, I would love to be able to look my sexual partners' mothers in the eyes without feeling ashamed and embarassed. That can't happen if they're just kids. Make sense?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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darkness-before
GOLD Member since Apr 2007

darkness-before

Rock is dead, long live paper and scissors
Location: The sea

Total posts: 197
Posted:If I have my facts right in europe some of the countrys where the age of consent is only 14 actually have some of the lowest teen pregnancys in europe. ie the netherlands.

Eagles may soar but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

Telepath wanted, you know where to apply.

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:when i was at school, a few of the girls in my year had boyfriends who were in their 20s.

I don't see it as a problem if the relationship is loving, and they respect each other.

What I don't understand is why these men find someone their own age?


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:the girls are their age mentally smile

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Posted:I am torn on this subject. I find so many "what if's" and it's hard to draw the line.

When I was 16, I became really interested in a 25 year old. When I was 17, I started dating him. So many people asked "what the hell does he want with a 17 year old... still in high school?" My parents knew of our relationship, they had only one rule... that he respected my decisions, and my youth. We never had sex. He refused to have any close relations until I was 18, even though we were best friends, and did love each other. He showed not only me, but my parents, that there are some older guys that are respectful of my age and of my body. Now I am 23, and he is still one of my very good friends even though our relationship didn't last. Relationships like those, open and not secretive, the parents know about it, the guy and girl respect themselves and the parents... so be it. I am all for that. I was mentally ready, and even when I was 16 and liked him, he felt it was a bit too young for me, and we needed to have a closer bond as friends and a closer bond with my family before we tread that path of dating when there was such an age difference. So we waited until I was a bit older and my family knew him better. There are no regrets about that relationship at all.

But then I remember some of my old high school friends in relationships with people who were 30... and they were 16! I remember them being so into the relationship and feeding into the guys words so much that they got beyond heartbroken in the end. Questions of "Why cant I meet your family" turned into "Oh hunny, you know I love you, but my Mother wouldn't understand!" And that line comes from the older guy. My friends fed into their words, and the whole time the 30 year old was having "adult" times and keeping my friends for "playtime."

I guess it all comes down to respect. I'd like to think that my daughter won't ever want to date someone so old... but I have to remember my own relationship and think about what it taught me, and how there ARE guys out there that really love the girl and respect them.

I do not think the age of consent should be lowered, but as many parents freak out at a relationship and go "OMG! I am going to press charges!" I think there needs to be an open forum of discussion between child and parents in the first place. If the parents get to know the guy, perhaps they will find out that age really is just a number, and some people really do love each other despite difference in years. I'm very glad my parents gave my ex a chance... we respected them, they respected us. But as in the cases of some of my friends... some were just getting played for sex and they fed into lies and stupid drama from the older person... in cases like those, that's why I don't think the age of consent should be lowered.

Really, it all comes down to the child/parent relationship. Respect your parents, respect yourself, and find someone who respects not only you, but your parents as well.


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Mr_Joe
BRONZE Member since Aug 2008

Mr_Joe

Part-time genius


Total posts: 59
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


What I don't understand is why these men find someone their own age?



I think it's down to men wanting to feel dominant over their partner in some way. Which is, of course, going to be much easier if you can peer over the age gap. It's all about levels of maturity and respect, I think it's fairly unlikely that the firemen in the above example saw the girls as equals, and were thinking with their genitalia.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Excuse me, Sir. So far - of what the young women told me - the reason for them not being able to find partners in their age group has been that the boys were immature, heads in the clouds, not able to keep their hands with themselves at all times, drooling on them, not taking themselves (enough) time to please, wine and dine their partner, little no (interesting) conversation and little to no respect included - just to name a few.

It' s a common misconception (of the young) that all elder men are exclusively thinking with their genitals and the like...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I can only speak for myself, but personally I prefer men with a bit of knowledge of the world (both in the sense of "life" and "having travelled"), who know what they want and have an idea of how to get it. Oh, and to be completely honest, when it came to the first time of having sex, I had absolutely no intention to be stuck with someone who didn't know what he was doing either but would probably pretend that he did.

So since all those qualities are somewhat hard to find in a 16- or 17-year-old, not by their fault of course, it's only natural for some girls to go looking for a slightly older man. If that's done intentionally, I don't see the harm.

Of course, if a 30-y-old takes advantage of a lovestruck 16-y-old that's not good. But mentally it probably won't hurt her any more than a lovestruck 21-y-old.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:With you all the way there Birgit. My friends could never understand why I was dating a 30 year old when I was 17; for exactly the same reasons as you had. I had no illusions about it going anywhere, was not desperate for his babies (and was petrified of it happening anyway). I wanted fun, plain and simple, with someone who knew what to do and where to put it, without the bulls*it which accompanies young men.

I never took things to the extremes of another friend who exclusively dated men over 35 (when she was 18) on the grounds that anyone that old who was single was likely to be desperate and therefore spend lots of money trying to impress her.

So, my attitude to the original question is "so what..?", with the proviso of the girls doing what they did under no false pretences/proclaimations of undying love from the guys/full consent from all parties involved.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I do appreciate how hard it is to draw a line - obviously there needs to be protection for those who don't know themselves well enough or aren't confident enough to say "no". However, I'd think that in that case peer pressure from people their OWN age is probably a bigger factor than potential come-ons from grown-ups.

Are people under 18 in that state allowed to have sex with each other?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:18!! Age of consent?! Seems a few years too late to be realistic.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:In Florida, the age of consent is 16 if both parties involved are 24 or under and if one of the parties is 25 or older then the age is 18.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:ubblol all this legal stuff aside for a moment and try and think on the level these girls did.............................your a 16Y.O girl, in highshcool and most likely a chearleader or in with the popular croud..........male firemen..........the oppertunity to have sex with an older man not to mention most highschool girls fantasy...........all that equals qudos with their friends and this can elavate their social status among them.





do i think they where groomed?? hell no!



they knew full well what they where doing as do most 16 year old teenagers, personally they just sound like hoe's ubblol


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