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Forums > Social Discussion > Should pedophiles recieve the death penalty?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Ive just read about the proposals to execute pedophiles. I did a search and I did see this but the discussion on that thread is a bit all over the place. So id like to direct it a little bit more and ask people to adhere to the following underlying assumptions that if need discussion should be put in another thread



1. The pedophile has been found guilty from irrefutable evidence (ie found photos of the pedophile performing the act or whatever, such that their is no doubt they are guilty)

2. The prison system does not rehabilitate inmates

3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)

4. The mental health system is currently overloaded with many patents not receiving the care they need (ie there are lots of cracks for pedophiles to fall through if they where to be put into treatment)

5. Pedophiles are often released early from jail after only serving a few years



So assuming that the above statements 2-5 are unlikely to change and statement 1 is true do you think that pedophiles should continue to be sentenced to short jail terms and then allowed back into the community or should they receive the death penalty for the consequences of their actions or is their another realistic option?

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180430928)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I can't find anything online that agrees with the idea that Ms. Loftus's research has bee widely discredited by the psych community. Sure she's controversial, but that's to be expected given that she's basically accused many mental health workers ( from licences psychiatrists and psychologists, down to "lay counsellors" ) of incompetence in their chosen fields.

I find it interesting that most of this repressed/false memory work was done in the politically correct 1980s and 1990s, when being a victim was sort of in vogue.

One other thing I also came across while reading up on this topic was that the ratio of female/male child sexual abusers was a lot higher than I imagined, and from now on I won't be referring to abusers as strictly male.


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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:Wild Child....How is me--a psychologist--telling you--a non-psychologist--that in the field of psychology, Loftus's work is not highly regarded, an insult to your intelligence?? I was sharing some information specific to my training, not insulting anyone's intelligence. How is Wikipedia a source of information but now apparently I am not? Especially since this topic is my ENTIRE career.



That being said, perhaps I didn't word it as well as I could. Yes, she has provided some good research on false memories and I applaud her incentive and work to contribute to the field, but it's correspondence to sexual abuse is regularly questioned. Her classic research experiment was convincing a child that they had been lost in a supermarket when in fact they had not. Trying to correlate that to sexual abuse is not exactly strong. There are a million other "tell-tale" signs of both actual sexual abuse and fabricated memories. I never said this kind of thing doesn't happen. Sadly, I know for a fact it does. But I'm saying that Elizabeth Loftus's work has been highly criticized in the field.



Look at her "awards." Most are from international associations, which the criterion and training is much different than in America (not that one is "right" and one is "wrong" but I'm talking in terms of her work's correlation to the American field of psychology). Of the American awards and recognition, several are not highly recognized organizations or are not among the most stringent and prestigious organizations. There's a difference between getting your research published by the Journal of Abnormal Psychology and the "APA Monitor."



Stout....all my books are at my office, so I'll have to check tomorrow, but I can give the exact statistics on female abusers. I want to say it's about maybe 10% of all abusers? Don't quote me on that yet though, I need to check to be sure.



Some more interesting statistics for you guys (I just came across them while looking for something else and I though it interesting. They appear to be a collection of several years of statistics, although some of it is a little old)(from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#sex):



Recidivism



* Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape.

* Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.

* Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.



Sex offenders



* The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.

* An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.

* Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.

* Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.



Child victimizers



* Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.

* Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.

* Offenders who had victimized a child were on average 5 years older than the violent offenders who had committed their crimes against adults. Nearly 25% of child victimizers were age 40 or older, but about 10% of the inmates with adult victims fell in that age range.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yes - and that is a very scary thing - it is so true that sex offenders are amongst those who seem not to be rehabilitated.

It is very disturbing. Sexuality is such an archaic force and if it's out of control it seems unstoppable - as the fact indicates that some offenders go for another attempt on the day they have been released or whilst they were allowed to leave jail on probation or granted furlough. Under these aspects it could be regarded as an "addiction" - sometimes even stronger than that of heroine.

Thank you for sharing these facts, Pounce - they make clear that sexual offences indeed are amongst the most problematic in the field (which is on reason why the discussion about death penalty for sex offenders/ child molesters came up).

On the other hand: 2.5% - respectively 5.3% of sex offenders and 3.3% of all child victimizers (therefore a minority) hopefully can't make society "kill them all".

Re. Prof. Loftus, I would have thought that Wild Child referred to Lurchs' comment. However her (Loftus) findings are certainly not only questioned and criticised within the US alone (why do I still read some national condescension out of your words?). Please read her article at the link I posted? There are some examples for sexual offences in it, too. I quoted Wikipedia exclusively for her honours - if this information is incorrect "Wikistyle" and erroneous, please share and/or correct the entry at Wikipedia.

However, even reputed breakthrough scientists got criticised and accused of scientific misconduct by the society. Especially in the field of psychology it's not easy to find rocksolid evidence to back up a claim made. But this in itself is no indication that their work has no meaning/ contribution/ benefits for the community. Whereas (for example) some hailed the Rohrschach for a long time, it's disputed today.

Would you agree that "suggestive questions" have been and still are used by some educators, investigators and psychologists, when asking children whether they have been touched inappropriately or abused? The situation of a child is very delicate, as it finds itself in a web of social responsibilities and ties - whilst it's personality is yet to form, and can be formed (even more easy as that of an adult).

All I was trying to indicate in regards of this topic is, that I oppose the death penalty (in itself) and showed evidence that questions it's (legal) application - even when it comes to the most cruel deeds committed.

Certainly there are enough cases of violent and fatal abuse, where the perpetrators identity is undoubted. Yet - even in these cases - I would oppose the death penalty for already mentioned reasons. IMO it is barbaric and outdated.

But rather than again focussing on the symptoms, could we please try to shift and also tackle the root causes?

I have asked some questions in this regard and re-phrase:

"Is it more comfortable to indulge on dark imaginings, than to ask ones-self and society what contribution to the problem we make?"


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:Truly and honestly, there is no national condescension in what I posted. I was just trying to explain the difference in the American psychology field versus other nations, as I don't make any assumptions that viewpoints are the same across the world. I considered studying abroad for my doctorate but decided against it, as the degree would not have been applicable for practicing in the States, hence my (limited) understanding of the differences in the psychology practice across nations.

I never doubted the suggestive questioning has been used in the past, and unfortunately does get used still on occasion. But (and this is my own personal issue, I know, but also for public education) I felt it important to note the changes my field has made over the years. The focus now is training every state to adopt a standardized protocol that includes interviewing with specifically trained forensic interviewers (like the training I received) in order to eliminate the element of suggestibility. And in actuality, the majority of suggestible questioning comes from (well-meaning) therapists who have been treating the client prior to the disclosure and have no knowledge of the forensic arena. Fortunately, the majority of judges will not accept their reports, as they acknowledge the potential bias, and instead order an objective evaluation by a trained professional who can spot undue influence.

Anywho, I suppose we're getting offtopic.

I truly don't know where I stand on the death penalty subject except to lean towards being against it out of caution (not that that's a bad thing). I throw out all these statistics and my experiences working in the field to help educate. And I admit my biases and inability to remain truly objective in this regard to make that kind of decision. There's a big part of me against the death penalty because I don't like the idea of taking someone's life, no matter how evil they are. But I also hear hundreds of stories every day/week/month/year from my clients about the horrific pain they've had to go through, and it breaks my heart.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted: Written by: pounce


Wild Child....How is me--a psychologist--telling you--a non-psychologist--that in the field of psychology, Loftus's work is not highly regarded, an insult to your intelligence?? I was sharing some information specific to my training, not insulting anyone's intelligence. How is Wikipedia a source of information but now apparently I am not? Especially since this topic is my ENTIRE career.




In no sense whatsoever was I implying that your opinions, knowledge, experience and skills are invalid and i apologise unreservedly if you interpreted it that way. I was making the point that just because you have all of those things and we don't that it's unfair of you to expect us to dismiss Loftus' work on your say-so alone, which is how I (and clearly Tom) took your post.

I was calling for a little more respect for each other, so I certainly wasn't disrespecting you or the important work you do - your passion came through and that's probably what we misinterpreted. hug


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:I'm sorry if I came across that way, but I don't expect anyone to dismiss research just because I say so. My goal is to educate smile

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Which you're doing very well - and thank you biggrin

And ditto to your last paragragh - that's pretty much where i am too. Is it cowardice or being squeamish? I don't know, i don't think so because I would fight passionately any move to (re-)introduce the death penalty.

shrug

Still want to string the censored 's up by their balls tho! ubblol What Meeko Kiddo said about them being Bubba's byatch - now that would be sweet justice. They would know in some small part the terror, fear, loathing and pain they'd inflicted on their victims, to the end of their days.


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yupp, I side that. Thanks for the clarification.

I dislike pondering about "what if's" (especially when it comes to crime involving my child) - and it must be the hardest if you're confronted with this human garbage every day. Must make you feel helpless, therefore I do have compassion for your angle.

But my stance on death penalty in general remains and I would like to focus more on alternatives and curing the reasons, rather than elaborating on the effects...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:But what are the reasons? I think to change a person's behaviour it is really vital to know their motivations. What motivates someone to commit these crimes? I am fairly sure some people who have sexual feelings about children know it is wrong and manage to keep it firmly in the realm of fantasy and never commit any crimes against children, but what causes someone to cross that line?

Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Lack of respect!! They lose the ability to recognise that their own desires do NOT come before other people's right to safety, health and happiness.

That's widespread in every area of modern western life (OMG I'm getting old and doing that 'it wasn't like that in my day' thing eek ubblol ) but the logical extension of that selfishness is that they don't see why (or lose the will to see why) they should deny thmeselves their gratification.

There is no such thing as freedom - discuss!


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Paedophile ring busted

 Written by: news

LONDON - A team of international investigators infiltrated an Internet chat room used by pedophiles who streamed live videos of children being raped, rescuing 31 children and identifying more than 700 suspects worldwide.

Undercover officers in Britain, the U.S., Canada and Australia busted up the pedophile ring using surveillance techniques more commonly associated with fighting terrorism and organized crime.

The chat room, which was called "Kids the Light of Our Lives," featured images, including live videos, of children some only months old being subjected to horrific sexual abuse, said Jim Gamble, chief executive of Britain's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Center.

"You could go and if you were in the club, arrange a time and a place when online you could view a child being raped and brutalized in real time," he said.

Police analyzed images and videos traded by the chat room's members for the smallest clues that could help them identify, locate and rescue the victims.

More than 15 children were found in Britain, Gamble said, declining to give further details. A Canadian official said authorities there arrested 24 Canadians and rescued seven Canadian children as part of the probe. Four people have been arrested in Australia, including one who was previously convicted of child pornography charges, officials said Tuesday.

Describing it as "a massive leap forward," Gamble said the investigation involved agencies from 35 countries. Investigators made the case public after the sentencing of ringleader Timothy David Martyn Cox on Monday.

Cox, 27, was given an indeterminate jail sentence, meaning he will remain in prison until authorities decide he is no longer a threat to children. One of his accomplices, Gordon Mackintosh, has pleaded guilty to 27 charges of making, possessing and distributing indecent images and videos. He is awaiting sentencing.



Yes, it's sometimes REALLY hard NOT to support the death penalty... censored mad2 censored spank "indeterminate jail sentence" - I hope they never determine.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:ditto - and a big cheer and hug for the poor investigators who've had to endure looking at this crap and had to deal with these filthy beasts.

Interesting the article points out the 'surveillance techniques more commonly associated with fighting terrorism and organized crime.' Shouldn't they be as good if not better?


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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darkness-before
GOLD Member since Apr 2007

darkness-before

Rock is dead, long live paper and scissors
Location: The sea, United Kingdom

Total posts: 197
Posted:I believe that the comment about the anti terrorist techniques is supposed to illustrate the fact that they are "better", and these techniques are being used more widley nowadays in order to help catch peadophiles, drug runners and organised crime. Before the police did their thing their way and other agencys did things different ways.

Thats in part due to the millitary, police and all the other internantional oraganisations (ica fbi mi5 interpol etc) all working much more closley together in order to catch people as lots of crime is proven to be inter-related. (High drug use leading to increases in petty crime, smuggling arms drugs people etc). Ergo reduction in one area of crime leads to reduction in overall crime across the board.


Eagles may soar but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

Telepath wanted, you know where to apply.

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Sorry - that's what I meant - ie why is the use of superior methods not normal in child abuse investigations, as it is for terrorism?

It's great it has been in this case, and also that the various agencies are co-operating more - it's always astounded me that there isn't a british police Force, but forces, a collection of vollages rather than a sophisticated fully-linked city shrug


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/stor...3A21%3A06%3A053


dirty b*stard!!! spank people like this deserve to be raped by prisoners and beaten up by the public angry


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darkness-before
GOLD Member since Apr 2007

darkness-before

Rock is dead, long live paper and scissors
Location: The sea, United Kingdom

Total posts: 197
Posted:Oh sorry wild child, yeah its not usual cus previously nobody wanted to share the sneaky beaky spying secrets. Nobody wanted the other guys to play with there toys either, but nowadys its A- cheaper thanks to internet secure elctronic communicatoins etc B-people have bigger budgets and C- they realised that if they all play nice together everybody benifits.

Anti terrorrist stuff and the millitary in general esspecially in the USA has a phenominal budget. I mean BILLIONS. Its only recently that our civil budget has been allowed/been able to afford the technology training and techniques.

As for the police thing umm pass. Good idea though. It is slowly getting more that way with national crime databases etc but theres a lot of resistance from the public against cops being able to pull up any info on anyody in the country. Nobody complains when MI5 do it cus they don't have to let anybody know ubblol


Eagles may soar but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

Telepath wanted, you know where to apply.

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Groovy_Dream
SILVER Member since May 2005

Groovy_Dream

addict
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 449
Posted: Written by: Wild Child


Lack of respect!! They lose the ability to recognise that their own desires do NOT come before other people's right to safety, health and happiness.

That's widespread in every area of modern western life (OMG I'm getting old and doing that 'it wasn't like that in my day' thing eek ubblol ) but the logical extension of that selfishness is that they don't see why (or lose the will to see why) they should deny thmeselves their gratification.

There is no such thing as freedom - discuss!



As far as i know, peadophiles think that what they do is perfectally natural, that children really are sexual beings and that the rest of society has the wrong attitude.

You're saying that they do know it's wrong, but do it anyway, by fighting with their conscience. This is what sane people who commit crimes do; peadophiles are not sane. Peadophelia isn't a reflection of the general selfishness in society, it's more of a type of delusion.

 Written by: Michele Elliott


“The sad fact is that as soon as one of these operations is closed down another will take its place.”




Surely the existance of online kiddie porn rings is a good thing, because it provides an easy way for cops to track them down, hopefully before they do any real damage, in real life.

Why would they shut the ring down? They had control over the situation. They could have kept it a secret that it had been busted, then run the operation from his house, and convict each and every member of the porn ring as soon as they got enough info.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:hmmm
I know that some of them feel that way, but I was under the impression that they knew it was wrong, and it was generally more of a compulsion. I've seen stories where they would ask to be chemically castrated. We had one in our area who was upset because the only place to live was legally too close to a school. He didn't want to be that close
I think it is the really evil ones that think it is alright
IMO only


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Whooopsie...

Taken from: BBC News

 Written by: BBC


Last Updated: Friday, 15 June 2007, 13:15 GMT 14:15 UK

Aborigine child sex abuse 'rife'

Many aboriginal communities suffer from severe poverty
A high-profile inquiry into child sex abuse in remote northern Australia says it found cases in every Aborigine community researchers visited.


The report, commissioned by the Northern Territory government, also found a "disturbing" trend in child-on-child abuse.

Investigators said high levels of alcohol and poverty were to blame.

Australia's Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough described the findings as a "national disgrace".

"It's a disaster and it's something that should never happen in this country," he said.

The Northern Territory's government - which commissioned the inquiry after allegations of similar cases were reported in the media last year - said it would begin implementing some of the report's 97 recommendations.

'Landmark report'

The report's authors said they had found incidents of child sex abuse in each of the 45 communities they visited as part of their inquiry.

One alarming finding was that young children were being exposed to pornography and imitating the sexual behaviour among themselves, they said.

The 316-report report found that children were being abused by both indigenous and non-indigenous adults.

Children as young as five were found to have contracted sexually-transmitted diseases.

Girls were being prostituted for drugs - including for petrol, a substance reported to be commonly sniffed by youths in Aboriginal communities.

Co-author of the report, Pat Anderson, a well-known Aboriginal health specialist, said there was a strong link between the abuse and the alcoholism that is rife in many indigenous communities.

"A river of grog is killing people and destroying our communities," she said.

"Spiritually, socially, psychologically, there is a total breakdown in families where people are drunk most of the time - the children are not safe."

Northern Territory's Chief Minister Clare Martin described the report as a "landmark", and said it would "sadly expose the great pain and unhappiness of many people".

"It is clear that not enough has been done to tackle the abuse of Aboriginal children," she said, adding that the government would begin implementing the report's key areas of action.

The recommendations include improving education services, appointing a children's commissioner, greater co-operation with the police and awareness-raising campaigns on issues such as pornography, alcohol and gambling.



the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Wondering if anyone else is curious about the lack of distinction (legally) between actual assaults and viewing child porn?

On the one hand, the people MAKING the porn are breaking the law and committing attacks on children and deserve to be punished. That's not in doubt.

But just because you watch something doesn't mean you have any inclination to partake in it yourself. Watching a film like "Hostel" doesn't make me want to cut people up and kill them. Is it right that the people who do watch are punished to more or less the same extent as the creators?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:And on another point, if the child porn was entirely digitally constructed with no real children involved at any stage, should watching it be punishable?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:That's quite an interesting point. To the first (should people who watch it be punished as much as those who create it?) I'd be inclined to answer yes - it's their demand to watch this stuff that gives it value, more demand generally = more supply, in any market, so the people who watch it are an integral part of the industry as a whole. It's got nothing to do with wether or not the people watching it will be 'influenced' to commit the same acts, it's about supply and demand.

Digital construction... I'm still inclined to think 'yes' because it's just wrong... but I do see your point that nobody actually gets hurt... but I still think showing those kinds of images, real or not, acts as a kind of confirmation for SOME people that paedophilia/molesting children is ok, or at least acceptable in some circles, or that it's possible to get away with it...

I'm not sure if the comparison with Hostel quite works, I know what you're trying to get across, people aren't stupid and don't just copy what they see in films. Violent films do not automatically incite people to commit violent acts. But your talking about the movies, entertainment for mass audiences - what about films like snuff movies, or the films of beheadings on the internet, where real people suffer and die? When presented in the right way, these can encourage some (possibly already deranged) people to try and simulate the violent acts... but that's not the point, even if nobody is influenced to commit the same acts, the films still depict a massive disrespect for human life (IMO) that is not present in films like Hostel and horror films, because with violence in the movies there is always a story, a context, a conventional way of filming and a shared understanding that the suffering and death is not 'real'.

I'm not sure if that last paragraph made sense... I'm kind of thinking over the issues as I write! I do see your point though Sethis.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Sethis, nice to have you with a rather interesting post.

Tea Fairy - demand creates supply creates demand... I side you on that one. But are you not contradicting yourself by what you are saying?

Why is there a difference between horror and splatter and child pornography? The only reason why ppl think that splatter or horror movies are "okay" is because they think that they are staged. Would it be different if they would be real? And if so, why?

There have been psychological studies who prove that the mind does not necessarily distinct between images and memories. The past has shown that ppl who indulge on splatter and horror movies do have a lowered inhibition threshold - IMO the same applies to (child) pornography.

As I understand it, the law is there to protect those who cannot defend themselves, to protect the sheep from the wolves, to protect the weak.

I said that a few posts/ pages before: how can we accept an entire industry to utilize children as (sexual) objects (by fake or real), how can we accept parents to dress up their children like prostitutes and at the same time condemn perpetrators? How much of a hypocrisy is that?

This is not about a "few derailed individuals" - but even if it was - is it that much of a sacrifice to renounce such movies or advertisements or procedures? Or is it about "regulation" only...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy


it's their demand to watch this stuff that gives it value, more demand generally = more supply, in any market, so the people who watch it are an integral part of the industry as a whole.



Going by that logic, should we not punish drug users to the same degree as dealers? What about guns? I'm not questioning what you've said, I'm wondering why the Law seems to punish viewers of child porn more than any other "user" of an illegal substance or object, where the harsher punishments tend to be meted out to the dealers.

 Written by: The Tea Fairy


but I still think showing those kinds of images, real or not, acts as a kind of confirmation for SOME people that paedophilia/molesting children is ok, or at least acceptable in some circles, or that it's possible to get away with it...



For a time in Ancient Eqypt and Greece, sex with children was considered quite the fashion among the rich. In other cultures it was a part of everyday life and "normal". Is something inherently wrong just because the society of the time says it is?

Note I don't condone any form of child abuse/molestation, I just like giving people things to think about wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Agree with both your points. I don't understand why the laws are the way they are either, at least in the UK. If they did want to eradicate certain behaviours, say drug use, then it would make sense to inflict harsh punishments on users as well as dealers... in the UK, I'm guessing this would just lead to too many people being criminalised for the justice system to handle.

Not all countries do punish users of child porn more severely than users of other illegal objects/substances... I'm fairly sure some countries in Asia give out the death penalty for possession of illegal drugs, but don't necessarily have strict laws relating to child pornography or child abuse.

I had also been thinking about the last point you made, but couldn't think of an eloquent enough way to put it. Just because society says something is 'wrong' doesn't make it inherently so (this was the core theme of my anthropology degree! How we come to make sense of the world around us and generally how our culture/society will dictate the 'rules' we can adopt. I wasn't allowed to think in terms of what's 'right' and 'wrong' - there are so many shades of grey). I was thinking how in the UK maybe 50 - 60+ years ago, before the gay rights movement, a lot of people would have seen homosexuality as 'wrong' or 'evil', but now it is accepted.

I'm saying that looking at child porn is 'wrong' because that's the rules of the society I live in. However, I have thought about the issue, so I'd hope that even if I was living in a society where it happened every day, all around me and was seen as perfectly normal, I'd still feel that it was wrong... because I think children have a right to be protected from harm (physically, emotionally and psychologically), as they cannot protect themselves.

However, when I look into it and ask myself why I think this way, it still stems from the rules of my society, it's the same argument that forms the basis for the age of consent laws...

Taken from Wikipedia:

'The general moral philosophy behind age of consent laws is the assumed need for the protection of minors. It is a common belief in many societies that minors below a certain age lack the maturity and/or life experience to fully understand the ramifications of engaging in sexual acts. These fears may include but are not limited to resulting pregnancies and psychological or physical damage. There is an ongoing debate in many cultures regarding child sexuality as it relates to age and an appropriate age of consent.[1] It is these debates that have informed the various laws in different jurisdictions and account for their disparity. Different cultures regard minors engaging in sexual activity as anything from normal to deviant behavior in need of correction.'


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