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Forums > Social Discussion > Should pedophiles recieve the death penalty?

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ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
Ive just read about the proposals to execute pedophiles. I did a search and I did see [Old link] but the discussion on that thread is a bit all over the place. So id like to direct it a little bit more and ask people to adhere to the following underlying assumptions that if need discussion should be put in another thread



1. The pedophile has been found guilty from irrefutable evidence (ie found photos of the pedophile performing the act or whatever, such that their is no doubt they are guilty)

2. The prison system does not rehabilitate inmates

3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)

4. The mental health system is currently overloaded with many patents not receiving the care they need (ie there are lots of cracks for pedophiles to fall through if they where to be put into treatment)

5. Pedophiles are often released early from jail after only serving a few years



So assuming that the above statements 2-5 are unlikely to change and statement 1 is true do you think that pedophiles should continue to be sentenced to short jail terms and then allowed back into the community or should they receive the death penalty for the consequences of their actions or is their another realistic option?

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180430928)

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


DarkFyreBRONZE Member
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand


Posted:
Ok I haven't read any of the previous posts except the first and I'm just adding my two cents worth.

1 Forget chemical castration just cut it off.
2 Real Jail time without early paroll but less than life
3 Repeat offenders kill'em if you must.

And those are my quick thoughts on the subject.

May my balls of fire set your balls on fire devil


Wild ChildSILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Is it me or is that just irritating?

'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
It is... same me.

Problem is that castration proved not to create the desired effect. It's more a mind thing. Many (sexual) (male) offenders don't necessarily do it in order to get rid of something physically.

That eye removal punishment... interesting thought umm

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Wild ChildSILVER Member
Star Trekker
1,733 posts
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Any post menopausal woman would understand that castration won't take away the desire or ability for sex - trust me tongue ubblol

But is the eye idea similar to castration in that the 'stimulation' has already been created in the brain so they can still desire and still physically abuse. In other words, it's still punishment but not a cure shrug

'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Yep..irritating, yet it happens more frequently that the actual admissions to it do and is one of the problems with bumping large, old threads.

Anyway...does anyone figure that pedophilia is actually curable ?

Faith,,I'm liking that idea of comparing pedophilia to addiction, after all an addict is never really cured, just somehow persuaded to not engage in the behaviour that they're addicted to. But pedophilia is a sexual thing, and I'm wondering if the "power" that drives this sort of behaviour may be more/less/equally compelling to other types of addictions ?

WildChild...thinking about it..don't most pedos tend to involve themselves in positions that bring them nearer to children ? For example coaching little league. Whether it's a school principal or coach, both are putting themselves in a position of trust, and then violating that trust, so I can't see one offender being worse than another with regards to what they do for a living. Trust is trust...no?

faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
stout: there is such thing as sexual addiction. People ruin their lives over sex just like crack. Pedophiles are attracted to children. I guess the question why they feel attracted to them is the determination on the comparison. From a lot of interviews, they talk about it in a compulsive addictive manner.

With addictions, a lot of it is cured because you remind yourself you lost everything, or something important. Sometimes it's court order treatment. But you don't always get to the positive reinforcemnt until later when the promises start to come true.

With pedophelia I don't know if those promises can come true. Part of the recovery is leaving it behind and moving forward. If you have to report in all the time, and you know your neighbors know what you did can you really move forward?

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


LurchBRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA


Posted:
There are *massive* problems with sex offender databases. Not just for pedophiles. By some of the logic presented in this threat, if an 18 year old has sex with a 16 year old girlfriend he should be castrated.

Did you know that in some places something as simple as urinating in public can land you on a sex offenders list? And the sad thing is there is very little in definition and separation of those 'benign' offenses and predatory violent ones.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
IMO the source of the behavior is the big question, IMO it's something that they're born with, but I do see the need to act on these "desires" as being similar to "conventional" addictions.

Could this really be referred to as an addiction ? Over on the addictive personality thread, we established that in order for a compulsion to be called an addiction, it had to cause harm to the user.

True, engaging in this type of behaviour can lead to the loss of everything ( once the pedo is exposed, that is ) and although, like a "regular" addict a pedo may come to think of himself as reformed , I can't see society cutting him any slack in this regard.

Can a pedo be "in recovery" knowing that the promises are very unlikely to come true ? It's my understanding that these guys loose family, friends career....even before they go to trial. Just an accusation in enough to destroy someone's life, and once convicted I don't see these guys as having much of a chance at anything that resembles a "normal" life, even if they do manage to shut off that part of their psyche that compels this behaviour.

I wonder how many suicides are pedos?? How many incidents of antisocial behavior are caused by repressed pedo urges ? For instance, maybe Cho, ( the VT guy ) was a pedo, which drove his antisocial behavior.

Unfortunately...I can't offer any solutions to this problem.

pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
I say we give them life in prison, and should they get parole, they are required to submit for research testing like for AIDS tongue

Ok, now that *that* is out of my system, let me provide you guys with some stats to address some of the questions I saw floating around (this is my area of expertise here). Most of the stats I'm using are for America, so I apologize I don't know how these translate to different countries, but I'm guessing they aren't going to be dramatically different. And yes, the majority of the time I'm going to be using male offender/female survivor typology because it is overwhelmingly the norm. But don't worry, I'm well aware of the statistics of female offender/male survivors as well and would be happy to spout off those statistics for anyone who wants them. I'm not citing all my sources because they come from years of experience memorizing this stuff, several books and websites, and from experts in the field who have told me personally (i.e. cops, judges, other therapists, etc.) I can assure you though, I'm not making any of this up.

73% of people who are sexually abused know their abuser.
That statistic rises to 92% for children under the age of 12.
That 8% is considered the stranger who snatches kids off the street (to use a crude example). The "known" offender doesn't have to be a close relative or family friend. It's people the child come into contact with on a semi-regular basis, that s/he has some sort of familiar context (i.e. school principle, next door neighbor, dentist/doctor, friend of their parents, babysitter, etc.)

Chemical or physical castration does nothing but disallow the abuser to achieve an erection. Do I really need to spell out all the horrible and gross ways an abuser can abuse a child without the use of an erection?

There are two identified types of people who abuse children.
- 1) Pedophiles. These are people who have genuine attraction to children. This category can be broken down even further to sexual arousal of infants versus latency age versus adolescents (Ephebophilia). To believe we can "rehabilitate" this type of person is like believing we can rehabilitate homosexuality. These people only find sexual attraction with children. These are the sickos who founded NAMBLA https://www.nambla.org/ (beware, it's a really disturbing site, and probably NSFW, unless you want your employers thinking you're interested in joining the organization eek )
The good news is this portion of the populus (and of the people who actively offend against children) are relatively smaller than you would think. The bad news is they still are assholes who hurt other people (that's my clinical term btw wink )
- 2) Child Molesters. These are the much more common people we speak of but often misname them as "pedophiles." 22% of imprisoned offenders are married. They are people who have sexual attraction for adults, but they derive pleasure from having power over someone such as a child. Yes, these crimes are about power, not sex. These are the people who chemical or physical castration will really do nothing for. They don't offend out of sexual gratification most of the time. This category of offenders also can be broken down, but that's a much longer break down that I won't go all the way in to. But there is one that is interesting to note given this discussion. That's the offender who is basically "replacing"....they are in a marriage that is failing, they are having personal problems, whatever. They basically turn to someone in their life....a stepdaughter, daughter, neice....and offend in a "spur of the moment" kind of thing. They aren't typically repeat offenders, and they are usually extremely remorseful about their act. Now, I still think these guys are bastards either way, but it terms of "rehabilitation," it raises an interesting point.

I have to touch on the "repeat" offenders statements as well. Over half of sexual assaults go unreported. And people who have been sexually abused are more prone to revictimization. I don't have the stats on this, but most sexual offenders have already offended SEVERAL times before they are caught.

You want to talk about rehabilitation? I say let's talk about the offender getting to that point in the first place. I love throwing out this statistic because it's such a heavy hitter. In talking about how sexual abusers/rapists are punished....
61% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison according to a statistical average of the past five years.
* If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.
* If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.
* If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.
* If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.
* So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.
* Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists 1 out of 16 will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free.

And the effects of a sexual assault? That conversation could be a thread unto itself. This is what I do, I evaluate and treat sexual abuse. This is my life work. I know nearly every little nuance, small detail, larger phenomenon, of what a sexual assault survivor goes through. And let me tell you, no matter how big or little the offense it, every person goes through even just a small portion of their own personal hell. But here's a small list of what the survivor goes through:
Victims of sexual assault are...
* Three times more likely to suffer from depression.
* Six times more likely to suffer from post traumatic stress disorder.
* Thirteen times more likely to abuse alcohol.
* Twenty-six times more likely to abuse drugs.
* Four times more likely to contemplate suicide.

Let me leave you with this one last statistic as food for thought. Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. If we add in the statistics for the world as a whole, I'm scared to even think of what that would raise up to. I'm guessing almost every minute, if not more frequently. It took me about an hour to read through the thread and write up my reply. So in that hour, 24 people have been sexually assaulted in America. Possibly 60 or more people have been sexually assaulted in the world. 44% of those are under the age of 18. So in the last hour, as few as 10 children, and possibly as many as 26 or more children have been abused. I don't know about you, but that makes me sick, and it gives me VERY little compassion for the offenders.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
And what sentence would you propose then?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
I don't know. I struggle with this because on one hand, I'd love to sentence them all to death. But on the other hand, I know it's not that simple. There are lines and deeper issues and grey areas. Maybe we should ship them all to their own private island where they can offend on each other to their hearts' desire? Seriously, I have no idea. I leave the treatment of sexual offenders to my colleagues who can stomach it and still remain professional. I certainly can't.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Would you integrate those offenders, as classified by Lurch? Or those as classified by Stone?



(just as a sidenote: I don't know about the US, but in my country children are "children" up to the age of 14 only. I guess it also depends on the age difference between the two and their relationship)



Death penalty IMHO is no option as some cases are uncertain, some questionnaire of psychologists is suggestive and misleading the children. IMHO death penalty as a whole is barbaric and inappropriate.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180902568)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
("...those classified by Stone?" Do you mean Stout? I only saw one post by Stone, and it said nothing about sex offender classification)

If you mean, would I classify someone urinating in public or the 18 year old who has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend as a sex offender? No I wouldn't. (Which btw, as far as I know, no state classifies sex between an 18 year old and a 16 year old as a sexual offence. I believe most states note 16 as the age of consent, and there usually must be over a 2 year age difference for the Courts to consider it to be non-consenting.) But that's my point, there are so many grey areas. Why two years? Why age 16? Grooming behavior looks so innocuous by itself, but do we allow a sexual offender the liberty to groom his victims to the point where the offense naturally occurs? I don't know, I don't have the answers.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
(sigh) Me neither, but shrug similar as in the "other" thread - I have my mind made up on death penalty already...



(redface yes, I referred to Stout)



Even if some censored would do that to my child - I would never have him/ her killed, or want them dead. It's too easy.



And you find me relieved that by that I'm within the majority of voters here on this bb.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180903713)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
Yeah, I don't even want to venture solutions on this one because I get far too emotionally invested in the outcome. I know I feel such disgust and hatred for sex offenders that I can't offer an objective opinion as to how to punish them. So I leave it up to the people who can stay objective. A great deal of my work goes into education, I've given numerous talks and workshops and presentations on sexual abuse and treatment, and I hope that alone could do the trick. But I know it doesn't because there's too many additional factors that come into play. I waiver on the death penalty issue as a whole, but when it comes to sexual offenders and especially child molesters, it gets that much harder for me to think objectively.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


LurchBRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA


Posted:
Actually it's my understanding that there are quite a few states where the age of consent are 17 or 18, but alright. Change the situation to 16 and 14. Too young for sex IMO but it happens all the time, and would fall under statutory rape in most cases.

How about couples that are 17 years old and take 'dirty' pictures of themselves only to be charged with child pornography? Even when the photo they are in possession of is of them.

There are a lot of twisted loopholes and poorly written laws that both target the wrong people, and let the wrong people go.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Stone and I are easy to confuse, both being no avatar types and starting with S, hey I wonder if the system will let me upload an avatar now, it's been months since I last tried.

Pounce, thanks for the clarification on the percentages and types of pedos. I knew there was a vast range ( from uncle Ernie type gropers to the kidnapping sadists ) but unfortunately I don't have the time to do much in the way of research.

So, yea, I'd support the death penalty, or life in jail at the very least for the 8% types, seeing that this just might be the most heinous crime one can commit ( well aside from being a cannibalistic, incestuous pedo necrophiliac wink ) but for the other 92% ???? There's the repeat offender status to consider and suppose one could talk about "severity" of offence, I can only support the status quo...and suggest jail and treatment.

I love the pedo island idea, at least on an emotional level. One big problem I see with it is...Just what, exactly would these guys feast on...monkeys???

pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
 Written by: Stout


I love the pedo island idea, at least on an emotional level. One big problem I see with it is...Just what, exactly would these guys feast on...monkeys???



Who cares? wink

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


LurchBRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA


Posted:
Cannibalism seems like an acceptable answer to that question..

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals


ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
thanks for the stats pounce

 Written by: FireTom


Even if some censored would do that to my child - I would never have him/ her killed, or want them dead. It's too easy.


I find it very hard to believe, you say its to easy to kill them, so what would you do if someone did that to your child Tom?

 Written by: Stout


Ben, are you working on the idea that ALL pedophiles are child torturers and rapists, or are you at least willing to acknowledge that there are degrees of seriousness of offense ?


Theres definitely degrees of seriousness with any crime, as pounce put it the victims all go through their own personal hell, i am concerned about the victims experience not the pedophiles.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


KatincaSee my vest.... see my vest...
693 posts
Location: Adelaide - South Australia


Posted:
You pounce that's a whole new can of worms on the Monkey front.

You could have cruelty to animals activists in a tis over that.... or you could end up with some pretty crazy species *I shudder to think what monster would be bred from that concoction*

Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~


pineapple peteSILVER Member
water based
5,125 posts
Location: melbourne, Australia


Posted:
if lord of the flys taught us anything.. theyll find food through some source of another... and possibly split into two groups.. i think death may have been involved wink

hug

"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Ben: I stated it before: IMO Death Penalty is barbaric.

"Why do we kill people, who (emotionally) killed people, to prove that the killing of people is wrong?" This applies to homicide - certainly does to all other crimes.

Why taking someone out of (t)his misery?

Why indulging in negativity and lowering ones self?

Why forfeiting somebodies chances for remorse and reconciliation?

Why neglecting, that in todays world children get exploited and presented as sexual objects (just the way they always did)? Why neglecting that photo modelling starts at early age and present them as canvasses for desires? Why dressing children up like hookers?

Why?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: FireTom


Ben: I stated it before: IMO Death Penalty is barbaric.


yep i got that, so what would you do if it was your child that was the victim?

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Completely hypothetical question... Why would I now want to indulge in dark imaginings? But one thing is for sure: S/He would live...

What is your stance on death penalty? (excuse if you have answered this one before)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
It's a hypothetical question that is the entire basis for this thread! tongue You asked me basically the same thing, why not answer it yourself?

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Points up ^^^ wink all questions answered (?)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


ben-ja-menGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: FireTom



Completely hypothetical question... Why would I now want to indulge in dark imaginings?



because if you cant see both sides of an argument then you cant make an educated decision. At the moment it seems that you are only seeing things from the eyes of the pedophile. By not seeings things through the eyes of the victim you are ignoring the reality of the situation. This conveniently allows you to maintain the idealistic attitude of no one should receive the death penalty without examining the emotions of the "dark imaginings" that the actions create in the world of innocent people.



so ..... what would you do if it was your child that was the victim?



 Written by: FireTom

What is your stance on death penalty? (excuse if you have answered this one before)



I believe that childhood innocence is a right that all children should have, I believe that people who commit acts of evil forfeit the rights of good people dependant on the act, in the case of people who meet the criteria in the first post i believe this should include the right to live.
EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180947019)

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
I had the chance to live in a relationship with a victim and I do have an idea about what scars and struggle these are left with and I do have a daughter of five years. Trust me there is no opportunity for me to remain "comfortable" or "idealistic" on the topic.



Katinca was mentioning a "creative" way of punishment on the previous page. Loosing one eye should be a warning, loosing two eyes should make the community a safer place.



But what about my previous questions? Why not going a little deeper and ponder where paedophilia is triggered within our own community? What about child/ teen pornography on the net? What about teen porn in video stores - even if they were just titled as such? What about parents dressing their little ones like hookers? What about the fashion and advertising industry putting out imagery that is likely to turn children into sexual objects? What about suggestive questions that children get asked by psychologists and investigators?



How to tackle that? How to tackle the root causes? Is it a genetic disorder? Is is a mental disorder? Is it a "learned" issue?



What if someone gets wrongfully accused? (Which is the second reason why I generally oppose capital punishment)



Am I raising inadequate questions? Or is it just uncomfortable to think and find answers to them?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


DentrassiGOLD Member
ZORT!
3,044 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Posted:
 Written by: ben-ja-men



because if you cant see both sides of an argument then you cant make an educated decision.





agreed. but just because two people can see both sides of the arguement and come to different conclusions, doesnt mean that one of the cannot see both sides...



ive looked at both sides. i know people who have been abused as kids. but i still disagree with the death penalty. im even hesitant about surgical punishments.



thats not putting the offenders interests before the victims, its just my opinion.



sure we could go through endless arguements of "how would you feel if *insert popular criminal hate figure* did this to your *insert loved friend/relative here*", and our opinions would change. its the same for any debate - be in drugs, genocide, vegetarianism, religion, rolf harris, guns etc etc If that happens to me, my opinion with probably change. but right now - i think otherwise smile
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1180952386)

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


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