Forums > Social Discussion > Should pedophiles recieve the death penalty?

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:Ive just read about the proposals to execute pedophiles. I did a search and I did see this but the discussion on that thread is a bit all over the place. So id like to direct it a little bit more and ask people to adhere to the following underlying assumptions that if need discussion should be put in another thread



1. The pedophile has been found guilty from irrefutable evidence (ie found photos of the pedophile performing the act or whatever, such that their is no doubt they are guilty)

2. The prison system does not rehabilitate inmates

3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)

4. The mental health system is currently overloaded with many patents not receiving the care they need (ie there are lots of cracks for pedophiles to fall through if they where to be put into treatment)

5. Pedophiles are often released early from jail after only serving a few years



So assuming that the above statements 2-5 are unlikely to change and statement 1 is true do you think that pedophiles should continue to be sentenced to short jail terms and then allowed back into the community or should they receive the death penalty for the consequences of their actions or is their another realistic option?

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1180430928)


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SeventyMiles
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005

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Location: San Mateo, CA, USA

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Posted:well, if murderers get the death penalty, then pedophiles should get molested as their punishment.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

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Posted:So you think pedophiles should be molested and then released into the community after serving their jail term? Interesting theory I fail to see how that would undo the psychological behavioral patterns that caused them to abuse others in the first place, especially as a high percentage of sexual predators where abused as children. I would guess that this form of punishment would only reinforce that behavior and increase the likelihood of re offending.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Posted:No way. No matter what people do it is stupid to execute them.

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

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Posted:they should stop mollycoddling these nonces and put them into the general population of the prison so they can become someones beyatch. 1st night in *bosh* out come their front teeth ubblol

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

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Posted:I am generally against the death penalty - although do understand the perspective of countries/states who still use the death penalty for murder crimes and war crimes.



however i completely disagree for having a death penalty for crimes that do not directly cause death. Thats just opening up an entire can of worms.



i disagree with the use of points 2, 3, 4, and 5 as any arguement for a death penalty.



i think pedophilia is absolutely abhorrent - but then again i think the same about any rape crime as well. in fact theres a whole bunch of crimes and conditions which many of your above points could apply to.



point 2) its a hard one to prove - and data on the rate of reoffending? its a scary prospect that its deemed prison wont help you learn your lesson so you die. Sound like a regression of civilisation to me. kind of like shipping all the convict to australia and trying to forget about them...



point 3) its NOT 100% effective - so it could be say 99% effective? 45% effective? no cure is perfect. look at stats before id decide.



point 4) is especially of note - not enough mental health care in the country - so we execute them instead. if psychological problems are indeed the cause - especially from troubled childhoods - what have we become to put it in the 'too hard' basket and send them to the chair.



point 5) applies to any number of criminals.



and counter points that apply to all of the above. where do you draw the line? internet child porn? rape as a whole? some girl you picked up who turned out to be 15 but lied? what if it genuinely is a one-off stupid thing you did, are genuinely remorseful, and will not do it again.



those points rely on blanket statements and lynch mob logic. Justice is hopefully as blind and devoid of emotion as possible - and you are judged on your crimes - not on hypothetical futures. im happy keeping it like that.



that being said - ankle bracelets for life, castration for repeat offenders - yeah i could handle that. and if associate with a murder, im not entire 100% against it - but the negatives of such legislation should seriously be considered first!



E.

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

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Posted:to look at it simplistically, 2) - 5) are just failures of the State. For the State to execute paedos because of its own failings is just adding to its list of problems.

another point, a friend of mine works for the prison service and is involved with the rehabilitation of sex offenders. She says that most of the men she works with (the offenders!) know that they've done wrong and desperately want to change their behaviour. Criminals re-offending once they're released is a general problem and one that isn't specific to sex offenders. It needs solving on a general basis, and I don't think the death penalty deterrent will have any impact on re-offence.

Yup, I'm all critical without offering a solution because I'm really stumped as to how to tackle this problem!


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

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Posted:What 87 says about 2., 4. and 5.

Basically if the question is, would you rather improve the system and enforce the possibilities that are already there, or kill people because it's less work in the end, I know which one I'd consider just as criminal as the original offence.

You acknowledge, in 3. and 4., the fact that there are psychological disorders that need to be treated or cured or monitored. Sure, just kill them instead cause that would be so much easier than having to actually look after the system you've put in place to protect the population.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Total posts: 2830
Posted:Should pedophiles receive the death penalty?

Why are there pedophiles?

frown


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gita
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

gita

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Posted:i agree with pretty much all of what dentrassi said! smile



though i do have to disagree with one point ben mentioned - that "a high percentage of sexual predators where abused as children". i am probably going to sound pedantic, but that point is not true (& i only know australian stats). while there is a percentage of sexual offenders who were themselves abused as children - it's not a 'high' percentage, & certainly not a majority. i wish i could give you a source for that information, but unfortunately i'm not at work & don't have the stats in front of me.



i work with juvenile sexual offenders. i know the system fails a lot of them...which in turn leads to more abuse. it sucks, but i don't know if the death penalty is going to solve the problem. there were plenty of reasons behind this country's decision to abolish the death penalty.



there also seems to have been an increase of sexual offences lately. either that, or they are just making the news more often. but that's an aside...



i am also not going to offer a solution - i work with young people (aged between 10 & 17 at the time of their offences) so we have a very different (i.e. restorative justice) framework to the adult system (i.e. not sure what their framework is!). & if i keep typing i'll REALLY start rambling! ubblol



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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

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Posted:the reason i would object is child abuse is noturiously difficult to determin with a 100% accuracy rateing there have been hudreds of cases of falsely accused people the most famous been when an entire school said that they had been sexualy molested in satanic rituals in the school basment by there teachers. it later transpired that the teqniques for recovering represed memorys often implant those memorys in the person (eg passed lives) espehsaly with children who are extreamly suggestable. meening children often say what they thing adults want to hear instead of whats actualy true. and after repeating it afew times they often convince them selfs its true as well.



of course children are genuanly abused and the perpitrator must be punished but advocateing a 100% final punishment for a crime that is often far from 100% certin is asking for trouble!! and sooner or later your gona end up executing someone whos inocent

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

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Posted:Personally, I dont think anyone should receive the death penalty, no matter what their crime.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

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Posted:ditto
though some people make it really hard to stand by that conviction


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

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Posted:What Birgit said.

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you are nice woman.

yay,

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Posted:personaly i would be in favor of the death penelty for the worse of crimes if we could ever be 100% sure of guilt but thats never the case.

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Posted:Hmm I disagree rob. Why should someone deserve to die for acts they belived to be right?

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Posted:if they think multipul brutal and meticulusly planed murders are right. then surely they would think puting someone to sleep by lethal injection was also ok.

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Posted:Hmm that's a good point. I dunno man, talk to a murderur. tongue

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

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Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:People die for what they 'believe' is right all the time. Treason is punishable by death for example. If someone knows that their crime could end in their death, and they still do it anyways, I don't see any reason to have pity on them.

Should pedophiles recieve capital punishment? I would say all have very serious mental health issues that should be examined first. Predatory and violent offenders would be at the top of the capital punishment list so in some cases I would agree with it.

 Written by:

3. Chemical castration is not 100% preventative (ie it doesn't address the psychological disorders that cause some pedophiles to want to hurt children)



You need to realize that in many cases, the pedophile does not want to *hurt* children, they have an obsessive behaviour in relation to children. They "love" kids. Look at Michael Jackson, he doesn't stab and beat children.. he just loves them.. way... way too much, in an extremely unhealthy way for everyone involved.


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darkness-before
GOLD Member since Apr 2007

darkness-before

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Posted:The big problems here are being 100% certain of guilt and this horrrible grey area of what would deserve the death penalty.

Take south america for example or half the contries in europe where the age of consent varies from 12 to 18. If a guy is arrested for sleeping with a 15 yr old does that mean he deserves the death penalty regardless of if he knew her age? How many times would someone have to offend to warrant losing there life?

How do you discern what exactly justifies somebody else losing the right to live? In theory it sounds like an easy solution that could prevent the worst offenders from ruining other peoples lives, which I'm all for. In practice it's just impossible to make a general rule on something like this. Though longer jil terms and attempting to actually improove the rehabiltation system sounds better. Still, if that fails.....


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Posted:As Lurch says, it's all a matter of degree really. I'd support capital punishment for "the really nasty guys", but do you really want to bring out the guillotine for the elementary school principal who's caught with kiddy porn on his computer ?

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

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Posted:Stout, that's exactly the sort of person we SHOULD be punishing as they're in positions of trust with vulnerable people- he's the last guy I'd want responsible for my children on a day to day basis! However, I would differentiate between child pornograhpy and pictures of naked children - thank god in th UK we're over those dreadful days in the 80's & 90's when a mother was deemed almost a pervert herself for allowing her toddlers to play on the beach naked.

That said, much as i find these crimes abhorrant (and frankly incomprehensible), I can't condone the death penalty because we haven't found a way/can't afford to rehabilitate them - 2 wrongs never make it right

Unfortunately for Ben, we've ended up discussing the points we're supposed to take as read - inevitable because reviews of the moral issue of the death penalty have been undertaken in many countries and states around the world and those that decided to move away from it are seriously reluctant to go back there again as they feel it's not morally right to take a life, even in 'payment' for another life.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Posted:Yes, Wild Child, I agree, the reason I used that example is because it happened here last year. Mr. principal hasn't been accused of anything but possessing child porn ie. there's no reports of him actually touching or acting pedo in any way. But yes, he did violate a position of trust and certainly deserves to be denied contact with children.

But death ??? I don't think so. even if it was hardcore porn.

But what do I know? Maybe kiddy porn is the "first step" in an attraction that naturally escalates and left unchecked maybe this guy will 'evolve" into a child rapist at some stage of his life. It just seems to Patriot Actish to condemn someone to death for what could be viewed as a rather "minor" offense ( relatively speaking )

It's my guess that pedophiles exist in their own personal hell. Think about it, the whole world hates you. It's about the worst thing you can be in today's society, and to go through life KNOWING that the first thought most people would have, should you disclose your sexual orientation is cold blooded murder has to have some psychological effect on these guys.

We're all aware that capital punishment doesn't really prevent anything , and serves more as a "societies revenge" role if anything ( something I'm not personally above ) and in the past , we've seen some societies try to control some sexual orientations through capital punishment..Were they successful in "controlling the problem ? " Temporarily,, maybe.

note: yes I'm aware that using the term sexual orientation with reference to pedophiles is controversial, and I'm really hoping this post won't be taken as offensive by my use of that term, I'm trying to tread lightly, for once. If you do find it offensive, feel free to substitute the words fetish or paraphilia, for sexual orientation.



It's my guess that when the geneticists who're currently studying the human brain actually isolate the genes responsible for pedophillic behaviour, this will be the first trait they'll work on eliminating. Holy crap, there's a scary scenario, having your genetic makeup analysed at birth ( or in vivo ) and being identified as having a predisposition toward pedophilia....Then what ?


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

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Posted: Written by: 87wt2gxq7


to look at it simplistically, 2) - 5) are just failures of the State. For the State to execute paedos because of its own failings is just adding to its list of problems.


I totally agree, the reality is that these are unlikely to change which is why I didn't want to debate over these points. Its all well and good to hide behind a "in an ideal world" mentality to avoid having to face the reality of it, what im interested in if theres the yes no choice of Pedophiles getting a slap on the wrist even when they say they are going to do it again or pedophiles get the death penalty, which do you sacrifice? the child or the pedophile.

 Written by: 87wt2gxq7


another point, a friend of mine works for the prison service and is involved with the rehabilitation of sex offenders. She says that most of the men she works with (the offenders!) know that they've done wrong and desperately want to change their behaviour.


Or perhaps they know that by saying that they will get their jail term significantly shortened and released early.

 Written by: Birgit


Basically if the question is, would you rather improve the system and enforce the possibilities that are already there, or kill people because it's less work in the end, I know which one I'd consider just as criminal as the original offence.


Well unless your planning on making this your life's mission i would say that the reality of the system getting improved is very slim hence the initial assumptions for the discussion so we could talk about the reality of the situation instead of an ideal world.

 Written by: Lurch


You need to realize that in many cases, the pedophile does not want to *hurt* children, they have an obsessive behaviour in relation to children.


Their intention isn't so much the point, if I where to cut your arm off, the reality for you is that you would have to live the rest of your life without that arm. The damage that is done to the victims is something that can not be erased it will be with them for the rest of their lives. I don't think its fair that the pedophile gets to destroy the lives of others and still get a second shot at their own.

 Written by: Dentrassi


however i completely disagree for having a death penalty for crimes that do not directly cause death. Thats just opening up an entire can of worms.


So does that mean if someone where to abduct, rape and torture a child resulting in trauma such that the child became clinically insane they should not receive the death penalty simply because the child lived even though they will never have a functioning life?

 Written by: Dentrassi


that being said - ankle bracelets for life, castration for repeat offenders - yeah i could handle that. and if associate with a murder, im not entire 100% against it - but the negatives of such legislation should seriously be considered first!


Ankle bracelets are removable and dont reprevent repeat offense. Why would castration only be for repeat offenders? That seems to really put the rights of the offender above those of the victims surely its those who have not committed the crime that we should be protecting first?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

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Location: Brisbane, Australia

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Posted: Written by: ben-ja-men


 Written by: Dentrassi


however i completely disagree for having a death penalty for crimes that do not directly cause death. Thats just opening up an entire can of worms.


So does that mean if someone where to abduct, rape and torture a child resulting in trauma such that the child became clinically insane they should not receive the death penalty simply because the child lived even though they will never have a functioning life?


correct. hey if i had a child and that happened i probably would have a different view, with a much more emotional involved view, but i dont.

and how a child who has been abused will grow up is entirely hypothetical. they may overcome those traumas to lead a normal healthy life, they may be screwed up for their entire life, or somewhere in between.

i think that your example is definitely an extreme situation. i dont have stats handy, but im quite sure that most child abuse situations come from a relative or a friend of the family.

a close friend of mine has had to deal with a child abuse incident within his own family. the victim is too young to really understand - but hopefully with enough support of those who care for her, she can overcome those memories. i do not think death for the perpetrator in that case will help anything helpful. its wont take away what happened, and it would only cause more trauma for the family. its not a black and while issue.

theres many other crimes and other calamities which can screw the victims up for their entire lives. should child abuse be treated separately?

 Written by: Ben


 Written by: Dentrassi


that being said - ankle bracelets for life, castration for repeat offenders - yeah i could handle that. and if associate with a murder, im not entire 100% against it - but the negatives of such legislation should seriously be considered first!


Ankle bracelets are removable and dont reprevent repeat offense. Why would castration only be for repeat offenders? That seems to really put the rights of the offender above those of the victims surely its those who have not committed the crime that we should be protecting first?



because thats denying even the opportunity for genuine remorse and rehabilitation. should i be banned for life from driving for 1 offense? my hand chopped off for a 1 off scuffle with a bouncer outside a bar? our criminal system tends towards lenancy for 1st time offenders, but successively more severe punishments for subsequent sentences. im fine with that. Its not a perfect system sure - i can always reoffend - but theres also a chance that i wont. I wish to be judged on my actions - not hypothetical what ifs. If my past actions have shown that im definitely going to reoffend then that a different story.

E.


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: Dentrassi


because thats denying even the opportunity for genuine remorse and rehabilitation. should i be banned for life from driving for 1 offense? my hand chopped off for a 1 off scuffle with a bouncer outside a bar? our criminal system tends towards lenancy for 1st time offenders, but successively more severe punishments for subsequent sentences. im fine with that. Its not a perfect system sure - i can always reoffend - but theres also a chance that i wont. I wish to be judged on my actions - not hypothetical what ifs. If my past actions have shown that im definitely going to reoffend then that a different story.


I would agree that the death penalty prevents genuine remorse and rehabilitation but how does castration prevent pedophiles from experiencing remorse and rehabilitation?

We aren't talking about stealing candy from a shop, we are talking about a horrific crime. Surely someone convicted of raping children is being judged on their actions, if they where castrated they could still go on to lead a meaningful life.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Nope. You asked a question, I answered. It's not unachievable. It would take more effort and money than to introduce the death penalty, yes. But it's possible. And as long as the penalty DOESN'T get introduced, money spent on improving systems that are technically already in place will in the long run be a good investment.

You say the paedophiles need therapy. To me that means that at least part of them are not fully responsible for what they are doing. Do you really approve of killing them because of a psychological defect?

By the way, statistically the chances of someone being raped by a re-offender are way below those of being raped by someone who's never been convicted of anything. What are you going to do about that then?


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:even if they want to change, doesn't mean that they will be successful.
Think about how many addicts promise change, even go into treatment, but fall back into their old ways


Faith
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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm who is lumping drug "users" and rapists/ murderers into the same category? (couldn't resist)



I assume we're talking about a violent and forceful crime?



MY answer to the question about death penalty is simple:



It's barbaric - much like the crime itself. Therefore my answer is NO.



Why release someone out of his misery by delivering him to an uncertain future? The death penalty IMHO is heavily based upon the conception that there is (another) judgement after someone dies and the offender then would eternally suffer in hell... But who could verify this? shrug



AND foremost there is the question: how many people are accused and sentenced, but are innocent...



If we allow criminals to drag us to their level, we as much are criminals and no better than them.



Another reason why I oppose the USofA's policies and laws shrug IMHO the death penalty is dishonourable for a country that claims to be "the greatest democracy on earth".



As a sidenote: Castration has proven to be inadequate...



VVV (my question, too)

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
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Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ben, are you working on the idea that ALL pedophiles are child torturers and rapists, or are you at least willing to acknowledge that there are degrees of seriousness of offense ?

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

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Posted: Written by: FireTom


Another reason why I oppose the USofA's policies and laws shrug IMHO the death penalty is dishonourable for a country that claims to be "the greatest democracy on earth".




No, that's India. wink


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