Forums > Social Chat > enlightened spinning
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
This is an exerpt from a letter I wrote. the following is my own personal view point (opinion).
"You need to get pushed (or push yourself) to get better.
I like to be pushed, to a limit. Beyond that limit it becomes something else. That limit is when I can no longer comprehend the moves, I can just watch them and enjoy the mind funk. Like the first time I saw jo derry spin. Heck, back then I could only do the moves in the tutorial section of hop and I thought I was the bomb. I even had a few moves that weren't on there.
But that isn't anything compared to someone who truely flows, someone who does moves that you can't even comprehend at the time. My paradime shifted, I no longer could see my spinning in the same manner.
What is funny is that I went back and watched COL #1 again, just the other day, and I was amazed because I could identify and comprehend all the moves I saw jo derry do. But I couldn't do that for almost two years. It is like slowly and slowly I was getting a better grip on what I was seeing. But I stopped watching it for a long time. Then I put it back in and it was totaly different. I could actually comprehend the moves (and do most of them) and flows and combos he was doing. This was just last week I watched it.
It felt realy wierd (and awsome) suddenly seeing with eyes unclouded.
one of my students is getting pretty good. He may even catch up with me (if he learns to flow). He has most of the moves, he just doesn't flow with them yet. That is his only problem, although he doesn't know that yet.
I guess what it is, you shouldn't do a move more than one repetition. (I've heard him say 4 is max) Which may be great if normal people (not like us) are the main audience, but even they can tell if they see someone doing it the other way.
If you only do each move once then there is no "holding pattern" you simply flow from one thing to another, and instead of doing moves, all you do are transitions. And it isn't about the moves, it is about the transitions. If all you do are transitions, then you are never static, you are always changing, like nature, like life. you are truely alive.
To repeat is crystaline, frozen, stagnation. It is death.
The true flow is like water, becoming the shape of it's container. Your container become the infinite universe, and you conform to infinite possibilities (the possibilities of infinity). Instead of being something (doing a move) you are living something. That is beauty in form, beauty in motion. Never the same, always changing and growing. It is life.
It is like a type of quantum mechanics (the specific branch eludes me right now) *edit: S Matrix* . There are no particle colisions *edit: interactions* (moves) as such, living by themselves in a stagnant world with their own independant existance. There are only transitions between particle interactions (transitions between moves) *edit: the particle are transitions between interactions*.
*edit: particle exist (transitions exist) but the colisions (moves) are not visable. We cannot see inside the circle (inside the colision) cannot see the move*
It is like a spider web, and the only parts that truely exist are the short lines in between the intersections. At the intersections there is only a vauge circle were we cannot see what is there. We do not need to see the intersections (we do not need the moves) all we need is to follow the lines (follow the transitions), from one to the other in an ever changing web."
Be cool,
Daniel
*edit for clarification*
[ 10. May 2003, 20:35: Message edited by: DJ Dantana ]
This is an exerpt from a letter I wrote. the following is my own personal view point (opinion).
"You need to get pushed (or push yourself) to get better.
I like to be pushed, to a limit. Beyond that limit it becomes something else. That limit is when I can no longer comprehend the moves, I can just watch them and enjoy the mind funk. Like the first time I saw jo derry spin. Heck, back then I could only do the moves in the tutorial section of hop and I thought I was the bomb. I even had a few moves that weren't on there.
But that isn't anything compared to someone who truely flows, someone who does moves that you can't even comprehend at the time. My paradime shifted, I no longer could see my spinning in the same manner.
What is funny is that I went back and watched COL #1 again, just the other day, and I was amazed because I could identify and comprehend all the moves I saw jo derry do. But I couldn't do that for almost two years. It is like slowly and slowly I was getting a better grip on what I was seeing. But I stopped watching it for a long time. Then I put it back in and it was totaly different. I could actually comprehend the moves (and do most of them) and flows and combos he was doing. This was just last week I watched it.
It felt realy wierd (and awsome) suddenly seeing with eyes unclouded.
one of my students is getting pretty good. He may even catch up with me (if he learns to flow). He has most of the moves, he just doesn't flow with them yet. That is his only problem, although he doesn't know that yet.
I guess what it is, you shouldn't do a move more than one repetition. (I've heard him say 4 is max) Which may be great if normal people (not like us) are the main audience, but even they can tell if they see someone doing it the other way.
If you only do each move once then there is no "holding pattern" you simply flow from one thing to another, and instead of doing moves, all you do are transitions. And it isn't about the moves, it is about the transitions. If all you do are transitions, then you are never static, you are always changing, like nature, like life. you are truely alive.
To repeat is crystaline, frozen, stagnation. It is death.
The true flow is like water, becoming the shape of it's container. Your container become the infinite universe, and you conform to infinite possibilities (the possibilities of infinity). Instead of being something (doing a move) you are living something. That is beauty in form, beauty in motion. Never the same, always changing and growing. It is life.
It is like a type of quantum mechanics (the specific branch eludes me right now) *edit: S Matrix* . There are no particle colisions *edit: interactions* (moves) as such, living by themselves in a stagnant world with their own independant existance. There are only transitions between particle interactions (transitions between moves) *edit: the particle are transitions between interactions*.
*edit: particle exist (transitions exist) but the colisions (moves) are not visable. We cannot see inside the circle (inside the colision) cannot see the move*
It is like a spider web, and the only parts that truely exist are the short lines in between the intersections. At the intersections there is only a vauge circle were we cannot see what is there. We do not need to see the intersections (we do not need the moves) all we need is to follow the lines (follow the transitions), from one to the other in an ever changing web."
Be cool,
Daniel
*edit for clarification*
[ 10. May 2003, 20:35: Message edited by: DJ Dantana ]
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Daniel...
First of all let me say that this is really lovely and written very well. I really liked it.
For me there is a point on inconsistency with the practicality of it.
The concept of embracing the flow is lovely and really needed when poi is used as a release...of tension, of stress, of daily crap. It is a wonderful thing to get lost in...but to truly flow is to release yourself into the movements, to let it all go. In my opinion it takes concentration to make sure you only do a move once. Sometimes it feels right to do it again, depending on the music, the mood, the time, the way your body is positioned...whatever.....
To say "only do it once" is limiting that mindless release from happening because you have to make sure that you are not doing something again.
And for performance...please watch any performance artist...especially concentrate on Somatic artists, those who train in comedia, dance, circus.... 3 or 4, those are the magic numbers. In dance 4 is the most common because that is the standard measure of rhythmic beats. In alot of performance related arts you are there to show off a subtle skill. A great deal of the appreciation is lost when, as an audience member, you struggle going.."I wish he would've done that again so I can see it better". Part of the challenge and the joy of being a performance artist is making any reasonable (every circus skill teacher I have come across says 3) number of repetitions NOT look boring. Watch a REALLY GOOD juggler...they utilize their whole body in the movements, right down to their eyes and expression. By the 3rd time if they are not bored with it, then I won't be either. And that is the point. The flow is from the body, in the heart...it starts there, not with the tool or repetitions of it.
I have seen people do nothing but butterfly variations for 3 minutes, repeating many times, and I was entranced because they flowed and moved.
From a personal perspective I agree, spinning comets alone in the backyard...I am sure I don't even do defined moves, let alone do them twice! lol
Thank you for sharing! I really appreciate the thoughts and insights commentaries such as this provoke!
Daniel...
First of all let me say that this is really lovely and written very well. I really liked it.
For me there is a point on inconsistency with the practicality of it.
The concept of embracing the flow is lovely and really needed when poi is used as a release...of tension, of stress, of daily crap. It is a wonderful thing to get lost in...but to truly flow is to release yourself into the movements, to let it all go. In my opinion it takes concentration to make sure you only do a move once. Sometimes it feels right to do it again, depending on the music, the mood, the time, the way your body is positioned...whatever.....
To say "only do it once" is limiting that mindless release from happening because you have to make sure that you are not doing something again.
And for performance...please watch any performance artist...especially concentrate on Somatic artists, those who train in comedia, dance, circus.... 3 or 4, those are the magic numbers. In dance 4 is the most common because that is the standard measure of rhythmic beats. In alot of performance related arts you are there to show off a subtle skill. A great deal of the appreciation is lost when, as an audience member, you struggle going.."I wish he would've done that again so I can see it better". Part of the challenge and the joy of being a performance artist is making any reasonable (every circus skill teacher I have come across says 3) number of repetitions NOT look boring. Watch a REALLY GOOD juggler...they utilize their whole body in the movements, right down to their eyes and expression. By the 3rd time if they are not bored with it, then I won't be either. And that is the point. The flow is from the body, in the heart...it starts there, not with the tool or repetitions of it.
I have seen people do nothing but butterfly variations for 3 minutes, repeating many times, and I was entranced because they flowed and moved.
From a personal perspective I agree, spinning comets alone in the backyard...I am sure I don't even do defined moves, let alone do them twice! lol
Thank you for sharing! I really appreciate the thoughts and insights commentaries such as this provoke!
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
I can deffinitly see what you are saying. When I say "never, and always" and all that I am only talking about the "flow" part of a run. There are times when I just do a butterfly for several second, ten reps even, maybe more. IT is a pause, a rest inbetween the action. It is a sort of hypnotism thing maybe. But I do to just feel, to relax, to take a good look at the audience even. It is a moment of contact, to feel your audience and let them feel you. It also gives the audience a chance to focus on you. I tend to start out a run doing a few simple combos to let them get the hang of what I am about to do, and to just let myself get into the zone.
When I said "no repetitions" what I realy ment was "no repetions of a single move in a row" doing a weave-waistwrap-weave-high carry-weave may not neccisarily count as repeating the same move, as the weaves (even though there are three of them) are actualy transitions. Now, if you do weave-weave-waistwrap-weave-weave-high carry-weave-weave then THAT is repetition. A break in the flow. by doing the weave that second time (without turning) it crystalizes that move. it becomes an collision (s matrix)
but if you do weave-rev weave-waistwrap-weave-rev weave-high carry-weave-rev weave suddenly there is no repetition. a weave done once, in the middle of two other moves, is actually a transition. but a weave done twice in a row becomes a weave. A weave and then a rev weave is two different moves, therefor it is all together (all in one) a transition.
A big part of these "transitions" comes from body movement. The body flows and the poi follow it. OR maybe the poi flow and the body follows it. Both methods actualy do work. It may even be difficult to tell the difference to the untrained eye. (maybe even the trained eye too)
I will often do a "combo" twice in a row, even intricate combos, with two identical reps. I feel it shows a sence of control. (but it is more a matter of reflex at the time) When I say combo, I mean anything from a fountain to a butterfly variation combo. And when I say "never do the same move twice" what I ment was "twice in a row" But this all applies AFTER you start to flow. Building up to that point during a run is half the fun. You let your audience see something they can understand, and then you give them something they can only feel and sence but cannot comprehend or understand. And afterwards they probably don't even remember what you just did, but that sence of WOW will stick with them forever.
with that being said, I am not a profesional dancer, I am just learning. And these thought are mearly observations from personal experience. I belive there is a place for repetition, but if you want to truely leave them in awe, give them something they can understand, and then blow their mind with something else. IMHO
I'm not claiming to be able to do all of this (or even have the true answers), it is all something that sort of burst into my mind recently. An accumulation of data and experiences.
good night all and thanks for the comments pele
I can deffinitly see what you are saying. When I say "never, and always" and all that I am only talking about the "flow" part of a run. There are times when I just do a butterfly for several second, ten reps even, maybe more. IT is a pause, a rest inbetween the action. It is a sort of hypnotism thing maybe. But I do to just feel, to relax, to take a good look at the audience even. It is a moment of contact, to feel your audience and let them feel you. It also gives the audience a chance to focus on you. I tend to start out a run doing a few simple combos to let them get the hang of what I am about to do, and to just let myself get into the zone.
When I said "no repetitions" what I realy ment was "no repetions of a single move in a row" doing a weave-waistwrap-weave-high carry-weave may not neccisarily count as repeating the same move, as the weaves (even though there are three of them) are actualy transitions. Now, if you do weave-weave-waistwrap-weave-weave-high carry-weave-weave then THAT is repetition. A break in the flow. by doing the weave that second time (without turning) it crystalizes that move. it becomes an collision (s matrix)
but if you do weave-rev weave-waistwrap-weave-rev weave-high carry-weave-rev weave suddenly there is no repetition. a weave done once, in the middle of two other moves, is actually a transition. but a weave done twice in a row becomes a weave. A weave and then a rev weave is two different moves, therefor it is all together (all in one) a transition.
A big part of these "transitions" comes from body movement. The body flows and the poi follow it. OR maybe the poi flow and the body follows it. Both methods actualy do work. It may even be difficult to tell the difference to the untrained eye. (maybe even the trained eye too)
I will often do a "combo" twice in a row, even intricate combos, with two identical reps. I feel it shows a sence of control. (but it is more a matter of reflex at the time) When I say combo, I mean anything from a fountain to a butterfly variation combo. And when I say "never do the same move twice" what I ment was "twice in a row" But this all applies AFTER you start to flow. Building up to that point during a run is half the fun. You let your audience see something they can understand, and then you give them something they can only feel and sence but cannot comprehend or understand. And afterwards they probably don't even remember what you just did, but that sence of WOW will stick with them forever.
with that being said, I am not a profesional dancer, I am just learning. And these thought are mearly observations from personal experience. I belive there is a place for repetition, but if you want to truely leave them in awe, give them something they can understand, and then blow their mind with something else. IMHO
I'm not claiming to be able to do all of this (or even have the true answers), it is all something that sort of burst into my mind recently. An accumulation of data and experiences.
good night all and thanks for the comments pele
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
SILVER Member
old hand
1,032 posts
Location: Madrid, United Kingdom
old hand
1,032 posts
Location: Madrid, United Kingdom
Posted:
Pele I quite agree
thanks for voicing my views again and saving me from repetitive strain injury
Pele I quite agree
thanks for voicing my views again and saving me from repetitive strain injury
"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali 
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
SILVER Member
addict
669 posts
Location: Lancashire, UK
addict
669 posts
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posted:
Nicely put DJ
I agree with most of what you say, but I'm with Pele on the repetion of moves. In the same way water flows down a river, sometimes swirling around in a pool before moving on - repeating a move is part of the flow, not stopping it. A move is a just named transition of motionless poi.
Nicely put DJ
I agree with most of what you say, but I'm with Pele on the repetion of moves. In the same way water flows down a river, sometimes swirling around in a pool before moving on - repeating a move is part of the flow, not stopping it. A move is a just named transition of motionless poi.
HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted:
Dan, that is truely inspirational.
Im printing that off to put on my wall, if you dont mind.
Its funny, whenever i learn a new move, im stoked, but its always more fun to find a way to transition from my new move to the ones i already know with out looking like i have to stop to think.
I just last nigh found a cool way to go from a butterfly to a chasing the sun, by bouncing the poi on my fore-arm to reverse it.
Im sure you guys already know that one, but i dont know anyother poi peeps so im self taught
but allow me and my innosense!
Luv to all
Dan, that is truely inspirational.
Im printing that off to put on my wall, if you dont mind.
Its funny, whenever i learn a new move, im stoked, but its always more fun to find a way to transition from my new move to the ones i already know with out looking like i have to stop to think.
I just last nigh found a cool way to go from a butterfly to a chasing the sun, by bouncing the poi on my fore-arm to reverse it.
Im sure you guys already know that one, but i dont know anyother poi peeps so im self taught
but allow me and my innosense!
Luv to all
D.B.
X x X x X
Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!
Master of the Free Hug Program
veteran
1,325 posts
Location: San Diego, California, USA
1,325 posts
Location: San Diego, California, USA
Posted:
That is what I need to work on. Being smooth. I have seen some excellent spinners that don't do wraps to get into other moves (From weave to butterfly for examples).
That's truely inspirational. Now, for glowsticks. Wraps just add to the coolness factor.
That is what I need to work on. Being smooth. I have seen some excellent spinners that don't do wraps to get into other moves (From weave to butterfly for examples).
That's truely inspirational. Now, for glowsticks. Wraps just add to the coolness factor.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Awesome stuff about the pushing yourself and transitions DJ Dantana, and everything should flow. But from a performance point of view, would a routine like you describe be entertaining to watch? A routine of all transitions sounds a bit “busy” to me; a visual cacophony (if you like), which would be great fun to do, but perhaps not so great to watch.
Pele makes some important points regarding performance. I’d just add that IMHO, the moves you describe (no-repeats etc) would be great as part of a routine; like a guitar “lead-break”, or for starting a show with a bang, having a big bang in the middle and a humungus finale. But, you may need to vary the pace a bit too; slow, fast etc depends on the music. Btw, what do music do you spin to, and do you spin with the music or do you use the music as a backdrop?
Anyhow, thanks for sharing. These posts always start me examining my own thoughts and motivations on spinning, performance and the rest
Awesome stuff about the pushing yourself and transitions DJ Dantana, and everything should flow. But from a performance point of view, would a routine like you describe be entertaining to watch? A routine of all transitions sounds a bit “busy” to me; a visual cacophony (if you like), which would be great fun to do, but perhaps not so great to watch.
Pele makes some important points regarding performance. I’d just add that IMHO, the moves you describe (no-repeats etc) would be great as part of a routine; like a guitar “lead-break”, or for starting a show with a bang, having a big bang in the middle and a humungus finale. But, you may need to vary the pace a bit too; slow, fast etc depends on the music. Btw, what do music do you spin to, and do you spin with the music or do you use the music as a backdrop?
quote:This sounds good, but I think it can be dangerous to assume we understand what an audience wants to watch.
but if you want to truly leave them in awe, give them something they can understand, and then blow their mind with something else.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing. These posts always start me examining my own thoughts and motivations on spinning, performance and the rest
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
member
57 posts
Location: Kamloops, B.C, Canada
member
57 posts
Location: Kamloops, B.C, Canada
Posted:
I too have only been spinning for a relatively short period of time... Since last august.
I've been working a bunch on acquiring some technique, as well as some overall style. I can see how transitions are important and how doing the same move over and over can get boring.
my analogy: If you were a boxer in a match, would you keep doing the same moves/combos over and over so your opponent could basically read your every thought? No. You wanna trick him. You wanna show him one thing for a little bit, get him comfortable with it... Then BAM! Hit him with something completely new and different!
I too have only been spinning for a relatively short period of time... Since last august.
I've been working a bunch on acquiring some technique, as well as some overall style. I can see how transitions are important and how doing the same move over and over can get boring.
my analogy: If you were a boxer in a match, would you keep doing the same moves/combos over and over so your opponent could basically read your every thought? No. You wanna trick him. You wanna show him one thing for a little bit, get him comfortable with it... Then BAM! Hit him with something completely new and different!
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
LL, print all you want
As to the cinics
I am basing all this on my own reactions to watching other people spin. I know that when I first started watching poi (circles of light #1) I watched every body with awe and reverence, but there were a few of them that REALY stood out in my mind. pretty much all of the spinners on there were very watchable, but there were a few that just blew me away (and I was a poinfant (poi-infant). May be these names will sound familiar...
Jo Derry, Robert Micheal, Hephaestos, Dangerboy
like making a painting, the color red is an element, not a theme, the weave is an element not a theme. You don't paint an entire picture from the color red. (unless you are one heck of an artist it will geet boring) so, just like picaso, you have to be a real artist to do repetitiouse moves and still keep it interesting. IT isn't imposible, it just takes lots of artistic additions.
LL, print all you want
As to the cinics
I am basing all this on my own reactions to watching other people spin. I know that when I first started watching poi (circles of light #1) I watched every body with awe and reverence, but there were a few of them that REALY stood out in my mind. pretty much all of the spinners on there were very watchable, but there were a few that just blew me away (and I was a poinfant (poi-infant). May be these names will sound familiar...
Jo Derry, Robert Micheal, Hephaestos, Dangerboy
like making a painting, the color red is an element, not a theme, the weave is an element not a theme. You don't paint an entire picture from the color red. (unless you are one heck of an artist it will geet boring) so, just like picaso, you have to be a real artist to do repetitiouse moves and still keep it interesting. IT isn't imposible, it just takes lots of artistic additions.
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I spin a butterfly, simple forwards, vanilla flavored butterfly. I do that two beats and then I move. I still do the butterfly but with a 3 point turn, a hip mya down, a back bend, exaggerated cobra up, shoulder drop turn and up again. I am still doing a butterfly but it always looks a little different with the body movement.
This is how I practice, so that I know what works and what does not. How it all feels but it is also pretty to watch I am told.
Now, do all that in one beat with nothing but transitions and it looks sloppy and erratic, which has merrit when you are alone and in search of the "zone" to spin in.
DJ, I am not discrediting what you are saying at all. In fact, I think it really is a good level to achieve, however, I also think it has a time and a place and that is where I am presenting my opinion from. The performance side of things.
You made the comment about leaving the audience in awe, but let me say that the audiences we perform for are 90% laymen, and not "in the know". It is impressive to them anyway. Now let's look at the facts of performing that we have concluded in other threads here....simple and fast gets them going wild. Too much is, again, muttled and confused and looks less clean and concise for a show. Look at some of the best troupes out there, or even the Cirque performers who spin. They are routined, they have patterns and they have skills...and it is more thanone move at a time that entrances the audiences with them. It is the body movement, the precision and discipline, the danger, the speed changes, etc.....there is more to presenting than spinning. So much more.
But as I said before, when doing it for you, I think that it is a great challenge. It is very akin to "stream of conciousness" training. For an improv actor we do these exercises that require us to empty our minds, in doing so we have to speak (literally) everything out, first sentence by sentence, then word by word, then sound by sound until we are more openly able to freely think. I think for spinning this could be something similar...exhaust the combos first, then the single moves, then the body memory and mind would be in a place to just go...kind of like a meditative purging? Just a thought.*shrug*
quote:Some of my favorites, as people and spinners. But if you watch, they did do things more than once in a row, in fact, Dangerboy doesn't do anything behind the back at all. He added enough texture to his presentation that it was riveting, even with what has now come to be known as simple moves.
Originally posted by DJ Dantana:
Jo Derry, Robert Micheal, Hephaestos, Dangerboy
quote:There are absolutely amazing paintings out there that are all done in variations of the same colour. It is a technique that is taught in many art schools. The move and the transition are only pieces of the puzzle. We have a painting here on our wall that is done in shades of blue only. The same shades are used side by side, but the strokes give it texture which adds dimension. It is a really lovely painting that everyone comments on.
like making a painting, the color red is an element, not a theme, the weave is an element not a theme. You don't paint an entire picture from the color red. (unless you are one heck of an artist it will geet boring) so, just like picaso, you have to be a real artist to do repetitiouse moves and still keep it interesting. IT isn't imposible, it just takes lots of artistic additions.
I spin a butterfly, simple forwards, vanilla flavored butterfly. I do that two beats and then I move. I still do the butterfly but with a 3 point turn, a hip mya down, a back bend, exaggerated cobra up, shoulder drop turn and up again. I am still doing a butterfly but it always looks a little different with the body movement.
This is how I practice, so that I know what works and what does not. How it all feels but it is also pretty to watch I am told.
Now, do all that in one beat with nothing but transitions and it looks sloppy and erratic, which has merrit when you are alone and in search of the "zone" to spin in.
DJ, I am not discrediting what you are saying at all. In fact, I think it really is a good level to achieve, however, I also think it has a time and a place and that is where I am presenting my opinion from. The performance side of things.
You made the comment about leaving the audience in awe, but let me say that the audiences we perform for are 90% laymen, and not "in the know". It is impressive to them anyway. Now let's look at the facts of performing that we have concluded in other threads here....simple and fast gets them going wild. Too much is, again, muttled and confused and looks less clean and concise for a show. Look at some of the best troupes out there, or even the Cirque performers who spin. They are routined, they have patterns and they have skills...and it is more thanone move at a time that entrances the audiences with them. It is the body movement, the precision and discipline, the danger, the speed changes, etc.....there is more to presenting than spinning. So much more.
But as I said before, when doing it for you, I think that it is a great challenge. It is very akin to "stream of conciousness" training. For an improv actor we do these exercises that require us to empty our minds, in doing so we have to speak (literally) everything out, first sentence by sentence, then word by word, then sound by sound until we are more openly able to freely think. I think for spinning this could be something similar...exhaust the combos first, then the single moves, then the body memory and mind would be in a place to just go...kind of like a meditative purging? Just a thought.*shrug*
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Well Canadian guy, it ain’t a boxing match is it? And errr, I think that’s an important point.
I’ve watched all the COL videos (and this is personal choice thingy) but the routines that leave cold, are the martial art type ones, especially if they look like an exercise drill. They just have no appeal to me, and usually lack rhythm, say compared Jo Derry, Robert Micheal, Hephaestos, Dangerboy.
Hey DanTana I didn’t set out to be cynical I really admire your esoteric style of spinning. It’s just that I (personally) don’t find that style entertaining to watch (great to do though).
I thought you were you looking for honest feedback on your ideas with the aim to improve you performance style With that point in mind, one suggestion would be to use music to get some rhythm happening, and hey, who cares if ya do the same move twice in a row, let it go a bit and have sum fun
Well Canadian guy, it ain’t a boxing match is it? And errr, I think that’s an important point.
I’ve watched all the COL videos (and this is personal choice thingy) but the routines that leave cold, are the martial art type ones, especially if they look like an exercise drill. They just have no appeal to me, and usually lack rhythm, say compared Jo Derry, Robert Micheal, Hephaestos, Dangerboy.
Hey DanTana I didn’t set out to be cynical I really admire your esoteric style of spinning. It’s just that I (personally) don’t find that style entertaining to watch (great to do though).
I thought you were you looking for honest feedback on your ideas with the aim to improve you performance style With that point in mind, one suggestion would be to use music to get some rhythm happening, and hey, who cares if ya do the same move twice in a row, let it go a bit and have sum fun
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
Pele, you see!!! that is EXACTLY what I am talking about... empty the mind, and set your body free. don't think about what you will do next. totaly live in the moment. Now, turn that into a routine, something you can do again and again, and make THAT the science of your spin.
I think when I watched "the masters" (years ago) I was already "in the know", so I am not a layman. I have a different perspective than 99.9% of other people. That is something I strugle with, trying to understand people's reactions. The reactions of people who are the audience.
I have zero formal education in the performance arts. All I have is what is in my heart. And that is the only thing I have to guide me. Pele, that is why (one reason of many)I respect your input, because you have something to offer that I don't understand (yet?).
Don't get me wrong. I see your point of view and I do understand it. In addition to that, I also see that there is a point one can reach where all moves are the same. A place where it is as easy and simple to do a three beat weave as to do a 5 beat btb weave. So what then? At that point I know I can do anything and anything will be just as simple to me. So, what do I do? If I am doing a performance for laymen then I should mould the form to fit them, right? but if I am performing for people "in the know" (0.1% of the population) then I shoulf perform differently. Am I correct? Therein lies the problem.
There was a time when I could only do enough moves to fill one run. Those were the simple day, I could do every move I knew and call it a run, the only difference was the order. Now, I have a lot more than that, so I constantly ask myself, "what looks good? What should I do?" And I truely do not know the answer. You see, it all is the same to me. So that is where I ran into the flow. Something NOT based on moves, something that does not yet have set lables (like all the moves seem to have)
:::this is turning into a great disscution:::
I can see positive points in both views that we are expressing. It is even better in fact to HAVE a set routine, that was you will reduce the possibility of a mistake, right? It ensures that your performance will never be a "bad" one. It ensures the audience of the next show will enjoy it just as much.
But it also opens up weaknesses, such as someone "stealing" your routine.
(remember with ever high tech military development comes aweakness)
It also reduces the possibility for growth.
(I was talking about a "set" routine for the last few paragraphs)
Anyways, I think what we were originaly talking about was flowing right? Flowing can also be correographed. Just because you do it the same way each time, doesn't mean you are not flowing. And there are places for repetition, but by deffinition, in the middle of a flow is not that place. Put the repetition befor and after the flow.
Pele, what you are talking about with the butterflys is beautiful, and I understand it, but you know what? That is also a flow. Sure it may not be a flow with ONLY the poi, but it is flow none the less. (of all people I was pretty sure you flowed!) you are not just standing there doing a butterfly! you body flows too! and that is a big part of it!
HAH! I suported my point of view by agreeing with you. now that is also a form of flow.
Stone, I agree with you completely, I don't truely enjoy seeing my style of spinning either. Sure, it has a certain quality to it, but everythng you have seen me do on the col videos is exactly what I am strugling to change. You see? I have been down that road, I know exactly where it leads. I want to be something else, something better, not cold and formal. Stiff and technical. I want to dance and be like water.
Well, I guess what I am against, is a certain mindset. that being "ok, now I'm doing a butterfly (ten beats latter), ok now lets switch to a mexican wave" and all the mind can think of is one move at a time while it also requires all the focus of the mind just to do that one move. (as opposed to doing a move as a reflex), and it is a struggle to switch "moves". That is realy what this is about. Or rather, the appearance of that mondset, even if it realy isn't what is going on in that mind.
Pele, you see!!! that is EXACTLY what I am talking about... empty the mind, and set your body free. don't think about what you will do next. totaly live in the moment. Now, turn that into a routine, something you can do again and again, and make THAT the science of your spin.
I think when I watched "the masters" (years ago) I was already "in the know", so I am not a layman. I have a different perspective than 99.9% of other people. That is something I strugle with, trying to understand people's reactions. The reactions of people who are the audience.
I have zero formal education in the performance arts. All I have is what is in my heart. And that is the only thing I have to guide me. Pele, that is why (one reason of many)I respect your input, because you have something to offer that I don't understand (yet?).
Don't get me wrong. I see your point of view and I do understand it. In addition to that, I also see that there is a point one can reach where all moves are the same. A place where it is as easy and simple to do a three beat weave as to do a 5 beat btb weave. So what then? At that point I know I can do anything and anything will be just as simple to me. So, what do I do? If I am doing a performance for laymen then I should mould the form to fit them, right? but if I am performing for people "in the know" (0.1% of the population) then I shoulf perform differently. Am I correct? Therein lies the problem.
There was a time when I could only do enough moves to fill one run. Those were the simple day, I could do every move I knew and call it a run, the only difference was the order. Now, I have a lot more than that, so I constantly ask myself, "what looks good? What should I do?" And I truely do not know the answer. You see, it all is the same to me. So that is where I ran into the flow. Something NOT based on moves, something that does not yet have set lables (like all the moves seem to have)
:::this is turning into a great disscution:::
I can see positive points in both views that we are expressing. It is even better in fact to HAVE a set routine, that was you will reduce the possibility of a mistake, right? It ensures that your performance will never be a "bad" one. It ensures the audience of the next show will enjoy it just as much.
But it also opens up weaknesses, such as someone "stealing" your routine.
(remember with ever high tech military development comes aweakness)
It also reduces the possibility for growth.
(I was talking about a "set" routine for the last few paragraphs)
Anyways, I think what we were originaly talking about was flowing right? Flowing can also be correographed. Just because you do it the same way each time, doesn't mean you are not flowing. And there are places for repetition, but by deffinition, in the middle of a flow is not that place. Put the repetition befor and after the flow.
Pele, what you are talking about with the butterflys is beautiful, and I understand it, but you know what? That is also a flow. Sure it may not be a flow with ONLY the poi, but it is flow none the less. (of all people I was pretty sure you flowed!) you are not just standing there doing a butterfly! you body flows too! and that is a big part of it!
HAH! I suported my point of view by agreeing with you. now that is also a form of flow.
Stone, I agree with you completely, I don't truely enjoy seeing my style of spinning either. Sure, it has a certain quality to it, but everythng you have seen me do on the col videos is exactly what I am strugling to change. You see? I have been down that road, I know exactly where it leads. I want to be something else, something better, not cold and formal. Stiff and technical. I want to dance and be like water.
Well, I guess what I am against, is a certain mindset. that being "ok, now I'm doing a butterfly (ten beats latter), ok now lets switch to a mexican wave" and all the mind can think of is one move at a time while it also requires all the focus of the mind just to do that one move. (as opposed to doing a move as a reflex), and it is a struggle to switch "moves". That is realy what this is about. Or rather, the appearance of that mondset, even if it realy isn't what is going on in that mind.
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
ARRRRRRRGHHHH I HATE MY CONNECTION AT HOME
OK, now with that out of the way, I'll try to recollect the nice response I had drafted to this thread two nights ago before I got the good old AOL boot and lost it before I could post... I can remember the major points I know.
Repetition
Repetition is good. Not doing one move over and over, but repeating a move once or twice over so that whoever is watching can see it. If I pull off something really cool, but it gets lost in an overall program of dancing and flailing about, nobody will really recognize it. Pulling the same trick a little bit later demonstrates my control over it and shows that I didn't just do something by accident and salvage a cool move out of it.
Flow
I define flow not as one's ability to chain moves together, but as one's ability to respond to unplanned circumstances. If a poi goes awry, what do you do with it? That to me is more important than constantly going from movement to movement. If you suddenly had a little kid dart out in your way, how do you react to that?
All this talk of "water flowing to fit the container" and such... sounds like someone's been reading some Bruce Lee philosophy
Honestly, to me the poi isn't about flow or technicality, it's my way of communicating something to the poi, the audience, the world around me. It's a visual representation of the beat I'm listening to, the mood I'm in, the amount of alcohol in my system , the personality I'm trying to act out for the audience... There's a lot more to it than just how my body moves or how easily I transition from one move to the next.
Very interesting discussion, made me think about my spinning Props to Dan!
ARRRRRRRGHHHH I HATE MY CONNECTION AT HOME
OK, now with that out of the way, I'll try to recollect the nice response I had drafted to this thread two nights ago before I got the good old AOL boot and lost it before I could post... I can remember the major points I know.
Repetition
Repetition is good. Not doing one move over and over, but repeating a move once or twice over so that whoever is watching can see it. If I pull off something really cool, but it gets lost in an overall program of dancing and flailing about, nobody will really recognize it. Pulling the same trick a little bit later demonstrates my control over it and shows that I didn't just do something by accident and salvage a cool move out of it.
Flow
I define flow not as one's ability to chain moves together, but as one's ability to respond to unplanned circumstances. If a poi goes awry, what do you do with it? That to me is more important than constantly going from movement to movement. If you suddenly had a little kid dart out in your way, how do you react to that?
All this talk of "water flowing to fit the container" and such... sounds like someone's been reading some Bruce Lee philosophy
Honestly, to me the poi isn't about flow or technicality, it's my way of communicating something to the poi, the audience, the world around me. It's a visual representation of the beat I'm listening to, the mood I'm in, the amount of alcohol in my system , the personality I'm trying to act out for the audience... There's a lot more to it than just how my body moves or how easily I transition from one move to the next.
Very interesting discussion, made me think about my spinning Props to Dan!
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
dood, we gotta get together someday soon. i feel like i could really help you out with this stuff you're talking about. sort of my favorite area. too bad you're not coming to austin for the local burning man festival on the 23!
dood, we gotta get together someday soon. i feel like i could really help you out with this stuff you're talking about. sort of my favorite area. too bad you're not coming to austin for the local burning man festival on the 23!
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Hot Schtuff
1,032 posts
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX
1,032 posts
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX
Posted:
Nice section Dan. This too made me look at my spinning abilities and how I connect moves together. I'm still trying to get better at sticking moves together that look good. I try and make up lil combos and then alternate between those different combos...Or I will sometimes throw in a move just because. I'm still working on the part of not holding a move for more than a few beats. I sometimes really get into the meditation part of the poi and will stand there doing the same move because it feels REALLY good to me. I find that I like to do my comfort moves when I'm thinking up another move to stick on the end of the last one. Has anybody else experienced that before?
Nice section Dan. This too made me look at my spinning abilities and how I connect moves together. I'm still trying to get better at sticking moves together that look good. I try and make up lil combos and then alternate between those different combos...Or I will sometimes throw in a move just because. I'm still working on the part of not holding a move for more than a few beats. I sometimes really get into the meditation part of the poi and will stand there doing the same move because it feels REALLY good to me. I find that I like to do my comfort moves when I'm thinking up another move to stick on the end of the last one. Has anybody else experienced that before?
RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
I seem to just have a memory that knows what I can do with my staff depending on where it is. I've also found that my body seems to know where my staff will be even when it leaves contact (Just catching it behind my back and such). In addition to flowing between individual moves, I have small mini-routines that I know I can do smoothly that I can flow in and out of to make it look like I actually planned to do something when i didn't.
My poi is the same way. I don't ever build a routine up... I have certain routine moves like fountains, etc. that I may do, but the closest I get to a full work is doing it facing one way and then the other usually, before I swing out into a different move. I also try to repeat some things over and over though so that people can get a closer look at what I actually do to pull off some moves, like wraps, etc. Especially when doing it to music of any sort, repeating along with the repetition of the beat seems just feels right.
I seem to just have a memory that knows what I can do with my staff depending on where it is. I've also found that my body seems to know where my staff will be even when it leaves contact (Just catching it behind my back and such). In addition to flowing between individual moves, I have small mini-routines that I know I can do smoothly that I can flow in and out of to make it look like I actually planned to do something when i didn't.
My poi is the same way. I don't ever build a routine up... I have certain routine moves like fountains, etc. that I may do, but the closest I get to a full work is doing it facing one way and then the other usually, before I swing out into a different move. I also try to repeat some things over and over though so that people can get a closer look at what I actually do to pull off some moves, like wraps, etc. Especially when doing it to music of any sort, repeating along with the repetition of the beat seems just feels right.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
Arashi... local burning man festival!?!?!?
tell me more
Arashi... local burning man festival!?!?!?
tell me more
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
next weekend, one of my favorite parties of the year, called burning flipside
we are sort of rock stars there, been a strong force in making it rock and roll for many years, it has bloomed into THE largest regional burning man, people come from all over the country! tickets sold out in a few hours, many to yankees , so we're having to "work it" to get in many of the locals that made it happen in the first place! but it's fun, if you go for thatsort of thing. i'm in a major crunch trying to get ready i can't wait!
next weekend, one of my favorite parties of the year, called burning flipside
we are sort of rock stars there, been a strong force in making it rock and roll for many years, it has bloomed into THE largest regional burning man, people come from all over the country! tickets sold out in a few hours, many to yankees , so we're having to "work it" to get in many of the locals that made it happen in the first place! but it's fun, if you go for thatsort of thing. i'm in a major crunch trying to get ready i can't wait!
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
they are sold out...what a bummer man, I would have driven down to be there
they are sold out...what a bummer man, I would have driven down to be there
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
veteran
1,495 posts
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Posted:
Dio, who is this "Bruce Lee" you keep talking about? Is he a philosopher or something? Never heard of him
Dio, who is this "Bruce Lee" you keep talking about? Is he a philosopher or something? Never heard of him
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
Hot Schtuff
1,032 posts
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX
1,032 posts
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX
Posted:
RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
uhh, well, if you're serious, well, there are ways... people that have extra tickets and such...lemme see what i can do, are you serious?
uhh, well, if you're serious, well, there are ways... people that have extra tickets and such...lemme see what i can do, are you serious?
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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