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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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polarity
polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1228
Posted:Caught the show part way through, and it came across that the guy he lost it with was something like a professional 'media liason' for the CoS. Someone who has had way more training in social engineering than any politician, is impossible to argue with, and is thoroughly infuriating because they will never back down, and will always dominate any situation.

You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:for anybody that missed it ubblol





i love the way he's ranting on then stops and clamly asks "do you understand?" then carrys on ranting ubblol


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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Yeah, this was the clip that the Scientology people dumped all over YouTube - they miss out the numerous threats and 3 weeks of harrassment that came before, not to mention that they've just put him through 90 minutes of a film of effectively torture scenes to link psychiatry to Nazism, Evil and pretty much every thing else bad. No wonder he was a little rattled.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:The Xenu Space Plane (as per R Hubbard's description)

Non-Https Image Link


According to xenu it flew to earth 75 millions years ago, which obviously explains why it's got a nasa logo on it's tail and looks remarkably like it was constructed by boeing ubblol


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I saw John Sweeney on the news tonight, and it wasnt pretty. It certainly brought out his inner crocodile.

I know better, but still
I just love the irony of the BBC getting beat-up while doing a beat-up on scientology.

Domino, I dont see the problem. The BBC and the crew of Panorama, the worlds longest running investigation TV show, are the hardened professionals. They got beaten at their own game.

After the dust settles, I would suggest John Sweeney consider doing some self-development work, anger management, undertake mindfulness meditation or something.


eek


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:John Sweeney is a hardened professional... but considering the amount of intimidation, and infringement on personal space... I think he did really, really well.

I probably would have lost it and told Tommy and his big glasses to fck off long before Sweeney retaliated.

The BBC's job is to investigate... Panorama is particularly good at it... and Scientology does have questions to answer (since it charges so much for it's 'religion' and promises so much, most of which is unsubstantiated).

I don't think any of Sweeney's tactics or questions were out of line... he interviewed both parties (celebs and critics) and tried to offer (as much as possible) a balanced view...

It was the Scientologists who were aggressive, unhelpful, intimidating and closed (at least, that's how they presented themselves).

Tommy had all the makings of a hardened cold call salesman and he made me nervous.

I can't believe an organisation that has gone so far in courting good media attention (with it's celebrity centre, etc) made such a stupid mistake as to send Tommy to deal with Panorama.


Getting to the other side smile

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I personally didn't like Sweeny's style of journalism/interviewing (judging only from this video, as I have never seen him before), however I do see Clare's point about how much he got harassed and that'll get anyone's goat.

And that video about Scientology is most frightening. I didn't realised they separated families and charged for enlightenment, not to mention the stalking and digging up people's pasts! eek i mean, what was with them suddenly appearing while Sweeny was interviewing that guy! That was so very Big Brother


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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MikefromGlos
MikefromGlos

Hitman
Location: Gloucester England
Member Since: 10th Jul 2006
Total posts: 985
Posted:he actauly almost got run over by one guy who was following him when he stopped and confronted him. i would of lost it long before he did and he was so calm for ages and the tactics the COS used were just there to wind him up

he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.

Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Cheers for that link - missed it last night.



(Details deleted and moved to another forum, will PM on request to those I know smile )



It's for these reasons that, in this case, I don't think Sweeny warrants the criticism he's attracted, which I suspect is mostly from those sadly who don't know as much about Scientology as they should, and all of whom seem to have completely missed the point of his reaction...


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:scientology = CULT ubblol



*note i put an "L" and not an "N" biggrin

EDITED_BY: ravehead (1179255867)


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Wooktastic
Wooktastic

the kicker of elves
Location: Dublin
Member Since: 10th Jan 2007
Total posts: 371
Posted:Yeah, I noticed that mistake.

Man is no more than a conduit for excrement to pass through.- daVinci

Jointly owned by BurdA and Tinypixie

Wielder of the voice of Patrick Stewart

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I just watched the Panorama story on scientology, and to be honest I though the story lacked any real objectivity. I expected something better than scientologists being prodded by a journalist. I dont think the story would have raised an eyebrow or a rating, with out Sweeneys bad behaviour.

Try this: Inside Scientology. Unlocking the complex code of America's most mysterious religion


thumbs down BBC


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Thanks for that Stone, that was really interesting.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Just watched it now.



For me, the only bit that I needed to see to make up my mind is when Tommy referred to Sweeny as a bigot.



Now bigotry stems from ignorance, and the only way to combat ignorance is education and communication. Therefore, Scientology are doing themselves no favours by being so secretive about their religion and refusing permission to air the interviews with the celebrities, being incensed due to the mention of THAT word. So much for sticks and stones eh? It is because of exactly THAT, that objectivity becomes impossible!



Imagine if Christanity or Judaism was as secretive, the media would be full of wild stories about 13-strong dinner parties invovling cannibalism and vampirism or leaders who cut babies' willies off. At no point do they say "no, you're wrong, it's actually about..."



As for dredging up the past of those who speak out, what happened to forgiveness of past sins? Or in their case, their ability to help those who need guidence from their dark pasts? The reports of their 'fair game' are very reminiscent of Spanish Inquistion and the Salen Witch trials. And at least they let the public know what they were on about!



If they want to be recognised as a religion in the eyes of the public, wouldn't it be a step forward to share their beliefs and not charge money for it?



Like _Clare_, if it was me I probably would've lamped Tommy for his oh so mature method of arguement which is basically 'lalalalala, you called me a bad word, right you're a poohead!'


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:well, there used to be stories about how we were cannibals and that sort of thing
Christianity used to be a very underground religion
Maybe one day when technology gets more advanced and space travel is not so strange it will be more accepted but now it's scifi

personally, after what I've read and heard, it makes me uncomfortable how they go for powerful people, people with influence
(but again Christians sorta do the same thing)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:Scientology certainly comes across as being scifi, but then again, from a dispassionate point of view, consider a bloke who was his own father and a ghost at the same time, did a whole buch of stuff that would put the Magic Circle to shame, told his followers that they would have to abandon their family and friends to be with him, died, came back from the dead and then rose into the sky. It's pretty damn outlandish too, but it's accepted.

I've had some fantastic arguments with fundamentalist on my doorstep. I can't see there's much difference between any of them.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted: Written by: Eera


Scientology certainly comes across as being scifi




maybe because it was thought up by a hippie on acid ubblol and as such, said person has admitted he started it up as a joke............25-30 years later we have idiots paying money for litriture that "will put you into a higher state" ubblol


CULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! biggrin


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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:As I said before Eera, at least they told you flat out what they believed instead of refusing to go on record about the basis of their religion then accusing others of being ignorant...



Someone with such strong willed beliefs should not fear ridicule from the public if their faith gives them as much strength as they say it does and should not fear their detractors enough to hound them to the ground. Afterall, Jesus didn't tell his disciples to run a smear campaign on Pontius Pilate or the Jewish Elders who set in motion his crucifixion did he?


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:Don't they have to? it would wreck their business modal if they told people what was going on. What little I've really heard of it boils down to the whole point being you cough up thousands of dollars, and sign NDA's to become 'enlightened' with their big secrets.

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Neon, as far as Christianity being secretive. What did you miss the De Vinci Code, Opus Dei and all that?


Hi newgabe wave


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin



Now bigotry stems from ignorance, and the only way to combat ignorance is education and communication. Therefore, Scientology are doing themselves no favours by being so secretive about their religion and refusing permission to air the interviews with the celebrities,



Of course, one reason why they may not be that into cooperating with the media is that they're concerned the media will be extremely biased and focus on sensationalising certain aspects of scientology at the expense of focusing on some of the more down to earth and benefical aspects.

We see it in this thread with ravehead posting the picture of the 'space-jet'- obviously the alien thing is an easy target to focus the publics opinion on.

The best advert I ever saw for scientology was a filmed incident involving Tom Cruise (a strong supporter of scientology).

During a red-carpet thing, he was basically assaulted by some reality-TV 'comedy show' guy who was pretending to be a photographer.

In reality, his camera was set to squirt water at celebreties expecting to have their photographs taken.

I thought that when Tom cruise got squirted he handled it in a really good way.

Whilst others would tend to either react as victims by simply walking off, or as aggressors by getting angry and abusive; Cruise took a hold of the guy and basically explained to him why what he had just done was rude and pointless.

Of course, it's generally impossible to communicate meaningfully with people like that- they either have a witty comeback or they walk away.

The fact that he grabbed the guy (in a non-aggressive way, but with a strong enough grip that the guy was clearly not going to be able to walk away) and then stayed extremely calm as he spoke to him, indicated a degree of presense that most lack.

Fact is that many people who stick with scientology, feel that they benefit immensly from the training and exercises that are part and parcel of the belief system.

Whilst many ex-members refer to it as a cult of brain-washing, those who stick with it see it as a way of gaining personal control over their lives.

Last year I saw an interesting documentary about a group of ex-scientologists who'd left cos they thought the church had become corrupt- it was interesting that, even though they'd left, they had set up their own group specifically for ex-scientologists who wanted to continue using the training methods outside the official church- indicating that they found the methods valuable.

As for the fact that it's pretty dismissive of psychiatry- what's the problem with that? I'm not that keen on modern psychiatry myself.

I suspect that the philosophy of scientology is one of self-relience, so it's natural that they'd have issues with the current relience of emotion and mind-adjusting chemicals used by the psychiatric profession.

While I wouldn't dismiss such use 100% and wouldn't do so to the extent that scientology does, I nevertheless think that, given the cuurent state of mentla health in the west, that there is a clear issue there and they're entitled to have an opinion on it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin


...
Afterall, Jesus didn't tell his disciples to run a smear campaign on Pontius Pilate or the Jewish Elders who set in motion his crucifixion did he?



I'm pretty sure old L Ron didn't tell his guys to do the same either. What the founder intends, and what the disciples read into it are two different things


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Eera - Definite good point.

OWD Definitely some good arguements you have there. Thinking about it now I will not make any conclusion on the subject of the withdrawn interviews as I cannot take the word of John Sweeny 100% that they refused permission to air their interviews. We only have his word for that.

The main issue I have with Scientology in regards to the documentary is that they seem rather embarassed about the basis of their religion. I myself cannot with absolute certainty say that Xenu and the Thetans DOESN'T exist! For all I know, the reason they're being so secretive COULD be to that they are hiding Xenu's spaceship from the public eye to protect it - their own 'Ark of the Covenant'.

And *IF* their big secret is that they KNOW it's all fiction but the teachings does indeed help them with their lives, then I don't see it as being any different than taking relationship advice from 'Sex and the City' or those 'moral of the story' moments on cartoons. If this is made public, then yes they probably will receive ridicule, because the media, and people in general, are b*stards when it comes to people who are different. What should I or the general public think matter? But their beliefs should help them rise above it and allow it to be like water off a duck's back instead of responding with their ferocious 'Fair Game' tactics.

There is just something a bit off about their tactic of 'Search and Destroy' rather than 'correct and educate' when it comes to their detractors.


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Post deleted by 87wt2gxq7

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: Stone



I just watched the Panorama story on scientology, and to be honest I though the story lacked any real objectivity.





Well, I suppose there's being objective, and there's not including anything from the more extreme end of the scale just for the sake of avoiding accusations of sensationalism, which is probably why you don't tend to hear a lot about the many and varied suspicious deaths of people while in Scientology.



That was an interesting article and thank you for posting it, as the format did allow for a more historical review of Scientology than the Panorama programme did, but I think it lures people into a false sense of security in thinking that this was all in the past and that Scientology is harmless on the whole.

That's understandable as a lot of faiths/religions have their own dodgy pasts and OWD, I'm glad that ex-members find elements of Scientology beneficial without money changing hands, but in the main, what we are talking about here is a pyramid selling scheme which still depends on identifying and exploiting weaknesses of the vunerable from their first contact, nothing more.



There's also quite a difference between being "pretty dismissive" of psychiatry and hosting an exhibition claiming that it's all evil, mainly based on it's links to the Nazis.

I once sailed on a lake made by Hitler, but that doesn't mean all lakes must be evil, though one pretty lake doesn't excuse the Holocaust either.

(It's interesting how often the links between Scientology and Nazism recur: ever noticed how the banners outside their London headquarters resemble those at Nuremberg?)



I accept I probably feel more strongly about this issue than most but I'm not repeating myself for the sake of persuading people to agree with me: I'm just really surprised at the level of apparent complacency towards Scientology in this thread and consider it to be very dangerous.

Maybe it's because people think it could never happen to them, but Scientology reels people in regardless of intelligence, or even income, with rapid and disasterous consequences.

Maybe it's also because - I assume - most/none of you have had any actual contact with Scientology, whereas I've been there, seen it happen and consider myself to have had a lucky escape.

The more I think about it, the more I recall, so maybe I should write it all up and see that the general consensus is then shrug


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: Stone


Neon, as far as Christianity being secretive. What did you miss the De Vinci Code, Opus Dei and all that?




I don't know opus dei, but for davinci code can we say "fiction"


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Spanner


There's also quite a difference between being "pretty dismissive" of psychiatry and hosting an exhibition claiming that it's all evil, mainly based on it's links to the Nazis.
I once sailed on a lake made by Hitler, but that doesn't mean all lakes must be evil, though one pretty lake doesn't excuse the Holocaust either.
(It's interesting how often the links between Scientology and Nazism recur: ever noticed how the banners outside their London headquarters resemble those at Nuremberg?)




Like nazism, scientology proponents focus on goal-setting, independance, gaining control over life, 'mastering life' etc, etc.

As such it shouldn't be too surprising if they share some similarities and even symbology.

But, by the very argument you use above to defend psychiatry; the fact that some aspects of scientology are similar to some aspects of nazism, is not necessarily of any consequence.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: w8t7g7x2q




 Written by: onewheeldave

I nevertheless think that, given the cuurent state of mentla health in the west, that there is a clear issue there and they're entitled to have an opinion on it.


I would disagree. I don't think anyone's entitled to have an opinion on somethign as serious as mental health, unless that opinion is based on a sound theory, in agreement with the anatomy and physiology of the brain and central nervous system, which is backed up by observable and reproducable evidence. Otherwise how would you know that your opinion isn't a load of complete rubbish?
[/quote: ]





But that's what modern psysciatry is supposed to be based on- like scientologists, i question the results they are getting, with mental illness seemingly at an all time high and increasing with, in making cases, treatment seeming to actually worsen things.



 Written by: w8t7g7x2q



Body thetans (alien souls) attaching yourself to your soul being the cause of all your troubles and illnesses - is that something which should form the basis of a system of mental health treatment?



In all seriousness, I'd ask 'what are the results?'

i.e. does treatment based on the premise that mental illness is caused by thetans, produce results as good as, or better than, modern psychiatry.

If so, then I'd say the approach has potential value.

(this is basically the old debate on modern western medicine vs new-age/alternative/shamanic- fact is that some people definitly do better on a shamanic treatment then they do on modern medicine- that's for physical illness, probably more so for mental illness).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by:

the fact that some aspects of scientology are similar to some aspects of nazism, is not necessarily of any consequence.





hence why I put that sentence in brackets to highlight that it was something of a tangent to my main point - I only said the links were interesting - but it seems the mention of Nazism in my analogy has only served to distract you from it.

I think the best and only way to summarise that point is to repeat (which I'm happy to do as I think it can't be emphasized enough anyway):



 Written by:

OWD, I'm glad that ex-members find elements of Scientology beneficial without money changing hands, but in the main, what we are talking about here is a pyramid selling scheme which still depends on identifying and exploiting weaknesses of the vunerable from their first contact, nothing more.





I doubt you're completely arguing against psychiatry and I'm not exactly defending it completely myself.

I'm just surprised that anyone would go as far as to defend Scientology at all to argue against anything, which is why I've made the assumption, or rather the hope, that most/all people in this thread so far are basing their opinions on second hand evidence of Scientology, as I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone with direct experience of it, bar Scientologists themselves, would go to those lengths.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Faith, Opus Dei do exist and are very controversial.



And the Da Vinci Code might be fiction, but Dan Browne was not the first to write about Mary being the wife of JC and them having children. That theory has been around for ages...but that's a topic for another thread.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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