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Forums > Social Discussion > Scientology, Panorama and the BBC

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Typing 'ECT' and 'forced' into a Google search will turn up hundreds of links about campaigns to end forced ECT and indivual cases of lawyers fighting in court for their clients right to not have forced ECT.



Two campaigning groups to end forced ECT and other psychiatric abuses (the second one is set up and supported by scientologists)



http://www.mindfreedom.org



http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/6443







 Written by:



the only time a psychiatric therapy may be administered without the patient's consent is if the psychiatrist believes that the patient is not mentally sound to be making her own decisions.





whatever happened to that 'raised eyebrow 'smiley? smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:this one? umm

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good points faith.

I think scientology is way over priced when it comes to finding out how to become all you can be.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:of course they are sort of choosey with the questionaire...it's sort of like outside sales interviews...you look for people who will succeed and ditch those that don't. so of course they look good smile

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:the CCHR is not a reliable source of information its a propaganda site from scientologists a group who clame that druging and rapeing patents by phyciatrists is routeen and that the holocaus was conceaved and carryed out by phyciologists.



i know it supports your case dave but scientology doesn't dislike phycatrists for sensable reasons they dislike them because phyciatrsits exposed there messia as a fraud and are doing this as a form of revenge



and after a little recearch doc lighting is right only people deamed unable to offer concent are given forced electro shock and of those %60-%70 ECT show marked improvements.



but dave what are you suggesting as an alternative? if people aren't well enough to give there concent should we simply leave them in there padded room and do our best to stop them commiting suicide? we could give them drugs but you've already said you wouldn't want that. So what are we left with?



do we just lock people up and hope they'll get better?



electro shock is very much like surgery people dislike the idea of been cut open and havieng organs removed sliced and swaped for the organs of the dead. however with surgry we make an exception because we understand it is benifical to the person.



just as electro shock seems an unplessent and disturbing idea we must also make an exception because the evidence shows it works and improves peoples lives.



i know you personaly had a bad experiance with the system. and clearly mistakes happen but if people are doing there best to improve the lives of others and scientific data shows that they are actualy suceeding in most cases. you can't blame someone for trying to help but failing.

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:Having been involved in this thread, I do intend, when the opportunity becomes available, to attend a scientology 'information event', at which point I will adjust my opinion of scientology accordingly.



ok but dave please be carful dont give them your address or phone number or even your full name if you can nothing they can use to track you down.



also if you attend an "auditing" session dont tell them anything you wouldn't want made public regardless of what you will be lead to beleave there is no confidnetiality during auding



oh and finaly when you first try to join you'll be asked to take a personality test just so you know your answers on the test are unimporantat the results are allways the same.



"your messed up in some way you need to buy the book dianetics to make you better"



anyways dave realy do be carfull if you attend the meeting regardless of our diffrences of oppionon here i dont wanta see anyone get caught up in the mess that is scientology

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


Having been involved in this thread, I do intend, when the opportunity becomes available, to attend a scientology 'information event', at which point I will adjust my opinion of scientology accordingly.

ok but dave please be carful dont give them your address or phone number or even your full name if you can nothing they can use to track you down.

also if you attend an "auditing" session dont tell them anything you wouldn't want made public regardless of what you will be lead to beleave there is no confidnetiality during auding

oh and finaly when you first try to join you'll be asked to take a personality test just so you know your answers on the test are unimporantat the results are allways the same.

"your messed up in some way you need to buy the book dianetics to make you better"

anyways dave realy do be carfull if you attend the meeting regardless of our diffrences of oppionon here i dont wanta see anyone get caught up in the mess that is scientology



Cheers for the concern, but you've really got nothing to be worried about smile

I was serious when I said that, IMO, scientology is (from what I know of it) no more manipulative and scam based than many of our respectable organisations which we deal with day-to-day.

I'm very used to recognising and not getting sucked into, attempts at manipulation and, on occasions, outright scams- that's the kind of culture we, in the modern west, exist in.

Apparently, I'm more sensitive to it than the majority, who seem to simply not recognise it unless it's to do with a organisation like scientology.

No-one gets my address or personal details off me unless they're got a good reason for it- that includes the incresing number of retail stores in the UK who, for whatever reason, thinks it's OK to ask you for your postcode when you're checking out- so no way am I going to be having problems at a scientology initiation.

On several occasions I've disagreed with and turned down treatment from, doctors/medical staff cos, IMO, what they were saying was a bit dubious. When they've turned on the pressure by taking the 'we're the experts and you're not..' line, it's made no difference, cos, unlike the majority of the population, I know that doctors sometimes don't know as much as they tend to assume they do.

So, again, I'll have no preblems with scientologists taking a similar approach.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks



the CCHR is not a reliable source of information its a propaganda site from scientologists a group who clame that druging and rapeing patents by phyciatrists is routeen and that the holocaus was conceaved and carryed out by phyciologists.



i know it supports your case dave but scientology doesn't dislike phycatrists for sensable reasons they dislike them because phyciatrsits exposed there messia as a fraud and are doing this as a form of revenge



and after a little recearch doc lighting is right only people deamed unable to offer concent are given forced electro shock and of those %60-%70 ECT show marked improvements.



but dave what are you suggesting as an alternative? if people aren't well enough to give there concent should we simply leave them in there padded room and do our best to stop them commiting suicide? we could give them drugs but you've already said you wouldn't want that. So what are we left with?



do we just lock people up and hope they'll get better?



electro shock is very much like surgery people dislike the idea of been cut open and havieng organs removed sliced and swaped for the organs of the dead. however with surgry we make an exception because we understand it is benifical to the person.



just as electro shock seems an unplessent and disturbing idea we must also make an exception because the evidence shows it works and improves peoples lives.



i know you personaly had a bad experiance with the system. and clearly mistakes happen but if people are doing there best to improve the lives of others and scientific data shows that they are actualy suceeding in most cases. you can't blame someone for trying to help but failing.





Personally, I've seen nothing about raping patients on any of those sites- perhaps you could provide links to examples?



Concerning ECT- the point was that it is forced onto some people.



The fact that it is forced on those deemed to be unable to give consent is obviously a point for concern, as it is those doing the deeming and decision making whose expertise and objectivity is under question.



The fact that some of these patients are involved in court cases to try to stop ECT being forced on them is indicative that they do not want it.



Please stop saying I had a bad experience with the system, it could end up seeming that I've been pulled into it in the past and had a rough time with it- and that the reason I oppose some aspects of it are down to being bitter, etc.



That is not the case- I did have a rough time but that was purely down to being severely depressed for a very extended period- my involvement with the mental health system and with the medical system in general, was thankfully brief, cos I could tell that they didn't have much of an idea, so I walked away.



I object to the psychiatric system on the grounds that, IMO, they're not any good at dealing with such problems and cos of accounts of people who have been sucked in and seriously hurt by it. In large part it's cos, IMO, there entire methodology/philosophy is irrational and impractical.



Plus, like the rest of the NHS, they're crippled by a hopeless admin system and severe time restrictions (per patient) which is especially bad of course, for those suffering from depression and mental illness.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:Apparently, I'm more sensitive to it than the majority, who seem to simply not recognise it unless it's to do with a organisation like scientology.



lol or maby you just think you are no one can assess there own gulibility wink





there entire methodology/philosophy is irrational and impractical.



why?



they engage in peer review



treatments must be evaluated with double blind testing



members are strictly regulated



if what they were doing has no value how would it pass double blind testing?

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I can assess my own gullibility, to an extent anyway, relative to other peoples.

For example, cetain email offers in my inbox lead me to conclude that, to make it worthwhile someone must occasionally fall for them- from that I can assume there are people far more gullible than me.

The fact that tens of thousands of UK-ers are currently in 10-20K of debt from credit cards, means that I'm considerably less gullible than several tens of thousands of UK-ers.

It is impossible to be 100% realistic about ones own gullibility, but, I can say with certainty that, in general, I'm very much on the low side of gullibility.

----------------

As for peer review and double blind testing- that's all well and good (and indeed essential) to further scientific fact.

However, we're talking about psychiatry- as far as I'm aware, no-ones established that psychiatry is a science.


Many assert that it is in fact a pseudo-science, in which case, all the double-blind, peer reviewed testing in the world, will do no more to establish it's worth, than it could establish anything about, say, astrology.

Actually, that's not the best analogy as, in theory, peer reviewed, double-blind testing could establish whether astrological predictions are more accurate than guesses (or not).

At best, psychiatry would be, IMO, scientific to the extent that sociology is.

Physics is an example of a science- it can make solid hypothesises and predictions that can be rigourously tested and, after the tests, something is established or rejected.

Psychiatry is, in large part, about things that are not particularly susceptible to scientific definition, like mental health, happiness, sanity.

What defines the distinction between sanity and insanity?- too often it's been defined by the whims of psychiatrists (eg the ramblings of Freud etc), cultural norms, specifically, establishment cultural norms.

Perhaps more important, even if it is about peer reviewed, double-blind testing of clearly defined hypotheses- that does not equate to being good for the patients.

For example, maybe the nazis who ran psycological experiments, did so in a very scientific way- all it meant was producing scientifically valid methods of inflicting pain on victims.

I'm sure the military researchers who develop 'interogation' methods or ways of disorientating enemy populations, use very scientific methods.

For some things, scientific double-blind testing is simply not relevant (Art, for example)- I suspect that mental health is something for which such testing is not the most important thing.

It is an interesting question though and I'm sure that what I've posted above is something that I may well review with a bit more thought.

Certainly, in similar debates on orthodox medicine compared to alternative systems, I've concluded that, for many aspects, double-blind, scientific testing is either not appropriate, or is impractical.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:However, we're talking about psychiatry- as far as I'm aware, no-ones established that psychiatry is a science.



well actualy yes they have because it passes scientific double blind testing. for something to be science it needs to have clearly messure predicatable and repeatable results that show that it does that its suposed to phycatry does this and so is a science.



Many assert that it is in fact a pseudo-science, in which case, all the double-blind, peer reviewed testing in the world, will do no more to establish it's worth, than it could establish anything about, say, astrology.



Actually, that's not the best analogy as, in theory, peer reviewed, double-blind testing could establish whether astrological predictions are more accurate than guesses (or not).




exacly double blind testing WILL SHOW if something is a pseudo sicence that is the whole point of double blind testing. case in point astrology fails totaly in what it sets out to do when we put it through double blind testing ergo we conclude it is unscientific



phyciatry however doesn't it MUST pass double blind testing by law meening that it must be effective relitive to a control group show me one other discaplin that is unscientific and passes double blind testing and you will have a point however the examples above actualy show the oposite of what your trying to demonstrate.



Perhaps more important, even if it is about peer reviewed, double-blind testing of clearly defined hypotheses- that does not equate to being good for the patients.



For example, maybe the nazis who ran psycological experiments, did so in a very scientific way- all it meant was producing scientifically valid methods of inflicting pain on victims.




again this doesn't realy show your case at all yes sciencen can be used to harm (nukes for example) but it depends on what your testing for if your goal is to inflict pain and your success is messured by pain inflicted then yes you would get scientific methods for pain which im sure would be very effective.



however that is NOT what phyciatry does at all. govermemnt testing requires that it show benifit for the paitent that is the messure of success off phyciatry NOT how much pain is inflicted. if goverment testing messured the success of phyciatry by the amount of pain inflicted then yes you would have a point but it doesn't so you don't.



Certainly, in similar debates on orthodox medicine compared to alternative systems, I've concluded that, for many aspects, double-blind, scientific testing is either not appropriate, or is impractical.



rubbish name me any alternitive medicen system an i will be able to come up with an effective double blind testing method for you. the only people who i've seen clameing the above are people who perform alternative medicen after a double blind test has show that there chosen disaplin does nothing at all.



It is an interesting question though and I'm sure that what I've posted above is something that I may well review with a bit more thought.



definatly you've made some excelent and intresting points in many of your posts but i think this is definatly the weekist argument i've seen you use. mainly because medicent is very very heavly regulated by the goverment and the medical comunity and all medical practises must adhear to and pass years of very strict scientific testing before the goverment lets them be used in general medicen and as phyciatry adhears to the same standards as all other medicen then your not just clameing phyciatry is unscientif your clameing that the entire of modern westen medicen is unscientific (quite a clame smile )

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


However, we're talking about psychiatry- as far as I'm aware, no-ones established that psychiatry is a science.

well actualy yes they have because it passes scientific double blind testing. for something to be science it needs to have clearly messure predicatable and repeatable results that show that it does that its suposed to phycatry does this and so is a science.




OK, before we go further, give me an example of such a study, preferably something that has a clear conclusion that won't require a degrees worth of study to grasp the point of.

Give me an example and then we'll see to what extent it relates to practical mental health.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dave, with the placebo effect running at 30% I agree it would be difficult to prove that psychiatry was any better the any other alternative health/spiritual, New Age therapy. Regardless of any double-blind, scientific testing which only seems to be aimed at testing pills.

 Written by:

Having been involved in this thread, I do intend, when the opportunity becomes available, to attend a scientology 'information event', at which point I will adjust my opinion of scientology accordingly.



Dave, I understand that you are disillusioned with psychiatry. But I would suggest that there are plenty other alternative health/spiritual, New Age therapies out there that that are a lot cheaper and better than scientology.

While Ive criticized the BBC for their dodgy reporting on scientology, and I believe most religions do a bit of indoctrinating, there is no doubt in my mind that scientology is a cult.

I would suggest that before you get to deep into scientology, you have a look at some of the alternatives like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), Landmark Education, Large Group Awareness Training, The Journey by Brandon Bays and the Secret, to name a few.

Alternatively, you go to the source as many New Age ideas are drawn from Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Sufism, Taoism, and Neo-Paganism.

Im sure other people also have suggestions that may be useful.

Stay Safe


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Let me clear something up cos I think you've misinterpreted my intention-

I'm not looking for any form of therapy or looking for any assistence whatsoever with my state of being.

The sole reason I'd go to a scientology 'intro session' is cos people here, and elsewhere, have reported that devious tactics are used in them to try to get people sucked in to scientology.

I simply want to see, for myslef, the extent to which those tactics are used.

I've been in the postion of being a 'seeker' and am very familiar with buddhism, other eastern traditions and various new-age versions.

I sought and, I guess, I found, cos I'm no longer a seeker- so no suggestions are necessary - but thanks for the thought smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:heres the studys you wanted included afew incase your not happy with one of them for some reason



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...mp;dopt=medline

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...p;dopt=Abstract

http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/2/67

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00237497;jsessionid=3584FFBA2D8F3A7834B5CB6A961C4229?order=1

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00029458?order=1



oh yer and even if your not intrested in alternitives to therpys check out Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) its facinateing subject well worth a read about.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Stone


I would suggest that before you get to deep into scientology, you have a look at some of the alternatives like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), Landmark Education, Large Group Awareness Training, The Journey by Brandon Bays and the Secret, to name a few.



But are they that much better than Scientology? Oh sure they don't abduct, rape, murder, and pillage, but they have about as much scientific evidence behind them as Dianetics does.

Yes, they should be investigated scientifically, but until there's evidence, I couldn't recommend any of that.

 Written by:

Alternatively, you go to the source as many New Age ideas are drawn from Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Sufism, Taoism, and Neo-Paganism.



It always interests me how so many Westerners view these Eastern religions as somehow being superior to our own. Now, when you read their holy books it becomes apparent that these religions are far more devoted to peace and spiritual balance than, say, Christianity.

But then if you read the Bible you see a religion that is devoted to peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism.

When you meet REAL Hindus, Bhuddists, Taoists, etc, you realize that their religion is prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist BS that Christianity. Islam, and Judaism are.

So what, then, makes them sources of happiness? I can't imagine why it could be worth it to go to all the trouble to learn a whole new religion. Just go to church! wink


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:some of them do tend to be more relevant in that they contain specific exercises/activities that are meant to produce a specific effect, for example, helping a troubled mind/soul to become more peaceful.

Buddhism being a prime example with it's central, consise analysis of suffering and the means by which suffering can be addressed/overcome (the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path).

Various forms of meditation being one such tool.

Western christianity does have such things, but there are not a central part of most churches and you have to dig very deep to find them.

Of course, aside from the fundamentlist rantings, many do find peace via christianity and Islam, but equally, many find the likes of buddhism to be more effective or relevant for them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yet one has to discern between the underlying philosophy, the institution and the disciples.

In everything there is a grain of truth - certainly even Dianetics hold truth. Question is whether one has to go there and get it from the disciples. One truth about Dianetics, Scientology and R.L. Hubbard:

If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion. (Ron L Hubbard)


You can find a lot of truth in that. In everything and everybody, just be aware of why you want/ need to believe (in) something (other than yourself)...


I completely side Doc's statement:

 Written by: Doc

When you meet REAL Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc, you realize that their religion is prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist BS that Christianity. Islam, and Judaism are.



Hence it's not about the religion, but only about the philosophy and how it resonates within yourself... I'd say.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fair question Lightning.



 Written by:

But are they that much better than Scientology? Oh sure they don't abduct, rape, murder, and pillage, but they have about as much scientific evidence behind them as Dianetics does.





I think its more about getting value out of the course, rather than needing scientific evidence. I did the Landmark Forum a couple of years ago, and wow did I get a lot out of that. It was like I woke up out of a deep sleep and saw life for the first time. I would say the experience was like satori or an epiphany.



I have friends who have done NLP and another who has done the Journey workshop. So, I would recommend any of those technologies for self-development. Though, they are not for everyone.



You have to be open, and you have to have the courage to look at who you really are. Then there comes a time when, imo, you have to let go of the ego, and break our deterministic programming. I would have never got through the Forum, if I hadnt read Daves Ultimate Theory of Reality. Thats where I come to understand how robotic we are, and how much of our personality is based on automatic reoccurring behaviours.



As far as religion goes, I agree that all religions are prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist rubbish as Western religions. One difference I have noted is that Western religions teaches rules and strict obedience.



Buddhism, which is a philosophy, teaches people how to think for themselves. And people should act for themselves, rather than succumbing to the actions of an all-powerful god.



Mindfulness meditation is a great technique to practice. I have a friend doing a Ph.D. comparing mindfulness to drugs for treating problem adolescents.





smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:But then if you read the Bible you see a religion that is devoted to peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism.



errr have you read the bible?



"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. " (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



"And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?" (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)



"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)



"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



"Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood." (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."



Dont associate with non-Christians. Dont receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10



Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17



Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10



A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33



not quite peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism biggrin

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:they're all old testement wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:So what?



the bible is the bible its suposed to be the difinitive work of an all knowing god who sees past present and future all at once why does the fact that most of the quotes above are from the old testement excuse them?



also the old testiment contains many of the fundimental parts of the christian religion if your going to ignore it you must also ignore



the ten comandments



and the original sin of adam and eve which was the whole point of jesus sacrifiseing him self.



if you get rid of the old testement what was the point of jesus dieing on the cross and hence the point of the new testement???



you can't just ingore the old testement because its an embaresment.

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Rouge Dragon
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Posted:Because the Old Testement is all "DIE EVIL MAD VENGEFUL I AM GOD FEAR ME!!!!!"

and the New is "come here little people, I'm lovely and sweet and caring and ubblove you"


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:???????



yes the old the Old Testement is all "DIE EVIL MAD VENGEFUL I AM GOD FEAR ME!!!!!"



and theNew is mostly "come here little people, I'm lovely and sweet and caring and you"



that still not a reason why the old testement is untrue just a reason why you dont want it to be.



how do you know that the new testment isn't made up and the old testement isn't true? given that the new testement requires large sections of the old testement to make sence and the old testement doesn't need the new testiment at all it would make more sence that we should ingnore the new testement.

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Rouge Dragon
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Posted:i dont see how it's a reason why i don't want it to be true. hell, i'm not religious, therefore as far as i'm concerned they're both a fictional read.

the point is that as far as christianity is concerned;

technically the old testement IS null and void because JC died for everyone's sins on the cross (tis why we eat chocolate at easter, folks) therefore all the mean vengeful god isn't required and is replaced by nice playschool god.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:ok fair point but what i meen is that while people do that they can't without throwing out the whole bible



JC died for everyone's sins on the cross to releave everyone of original sin something created in the old testement by adam and eve eating the apple.



if the old testement is null and void then there was no original sin and we lose the whole point of JC turning up in the first place



if we can't disgard the old testement then you can't disgard all the nasty bits of the bible that preach hate and murder.

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Rouge Dragon
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Posted:cept isn't Original Sin a Catholic Dogma and not actually *in* the Bible? Isn't that why you need to be baptised because before you're baptised you're still sinful and haven't been cleared of the original sin yet?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:righto, so i've looked it up and it's not catholic, specifically, but JC didn't die for it and we still need to make up for it cos we're apparently all born with it.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:intresting i had always assumed it was from the bible someware however now i look it doesn't seem to be mention of original sin at all. ahh well the catholics at least can't disgard the old testement smile



your definatly right about this one original sin can't be used to validate the old testement basised on the new



these new testement quotes can however biggrin



1) For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.



2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)



3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasnt the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)



3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)



3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)



4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)



5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. (Matthew 15:4-7)



6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)



7) Peter says that all slaves should be subject to [their] masters with all fear, to the bad and cruel as well as the good and gentle. This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18



8) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).



9) ...the scripture cannot be broken. --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

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faith enfire
faith enfire

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Posted:The Bible is a progression. It starts off as the strict order and then moves on to a kinder order.
JC did die for our sins, but we are still sinful. Also, we have to accept that He died for our sins. We have to accept the the gift.
Our souls are stained from original sin, and that is what baptism is for. But we still have a sinful nature. That is why the Commandments and the Beattitudes are so important. It's that mindfulness and getting us in the right state of mind
the Beattitudes for those who aren't familiar:

Matthew 5
The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes
1(A)When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on (B)the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2(C)He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3"(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4"Blessed are (F)those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5"Blessed are (G)the [a]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6"Blessed are (H)those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7"Blessed are (I)the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8"Blessed are (J)the pure in heart, for (K)they shall see God.

9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for (L)they shall be called sons of God.

10"Blessed are those who have been (M)persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for (N)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people (O)insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for (P)in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

this is a quote from BibleGateway...the following passages after this also provides us with more of a blueprint on "good" behavior

Christians would agree on the whole state of mind thing


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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