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Forums > Social Discussion > Scientology, Panorama and the BBC

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
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Posted:Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

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Posted:Post deleted by 87wt2gxq7


robnunchucks
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Posted:ok dave as lets pose a hypothetical question supose you were mental ill which would you rather be treated by a psychiatrists or a sciontologist.

can you justify your answer to so we can see your reasoning


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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks



ok dave as lets pose a hypothetical question supose you were mental ill which would you rather be treated by a psychiatrists or a sciontologist.



can you justify your answer to so we can see your reasoning





I have been mentally ill in the past. Now I'm not and aren't going to be again in the future.



But, for the sake of discussion- if, hypothetically, i did start to become mentally ill in the future, I can say that I wouldn't being going near a psychiatrist.



I've never been to a scientologist, so I can't rule them out as definitively, but, from what I've heard, personally, I don't think I'd being seeing one of those either.



The reasons I wouldn't go for psychiatric treatment are numerous-



1. they tend to be drug focused and, IMO, most mental illness is not susceptible to drugs treatments- IMO, often drugs serve simply to numb/sedate underlying problems.



I also feel that use of drugs (whether recreational or prescribed)to manage behaviour, can often lead to a block in progress with the underlying issues.



That's not to say that there are not some instances where drugs can be of benefit, i just think those instances are much rarer than the psychiatric industry thinks.



2. Treatment would involve going through the NHS system- while I would not want to critisise the majority of the medical staff/nurses/doctors etc in that system, the fact remains is that it is crippled by the totally inept, unprofessional and unnacountable admin system that goes along with it.



In my experience, that admin aspect is so atrocious, that it often has a adverse affect on actual treatment (as I mentioned earlier, my Dad recently died in the NHS system and inept admin reared its head in pretty much every aspect of his treatment).



3. Having been ill previously, i do have some experience of the psychiatric system- thankfully it was not to a deep level as some instinct of self-preservation kept me from getting sucked too deeply into it.



However, from that experience, it was obvious that the psychiatric profession had very little grasp of mental health, or any particularly valid ways of treating it.



-------



Concerning scientology- it does seem to be a bit cash focused and many seem to have had bad experiences with it- nevertheless, it lacks psychiatries relience on drug behaviour management, which I consider a plus- also, from what little I know, it does seem to focus on developing the kind of self-reliance which, IMO is a valid way of dealing with many mental health issues.



Also, from my experience with many spiritual/new-age/self improvement philosophies/exercises, I recognise that at least one of scientologies core exercises, is one that would be likely to be very useful in developing control, over ones life/emotions.



As I said before- the true criteria for which approach is best is, IMO, soley to do with the results they produce. No one here has tried to demonstrate that, in actual results, psychiatry does any better than scientology, or that psychiatry causes less damage than scientology.



The above are just my opinions.


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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: 87wt2gxq7




but, seeing as they're scientific disciplines that're subject to self-scrutiny and peer review, I'm willing to bet that psychiatry and psychology are improving and refining whereas scientology is just about getting your money. I really don't think that there's much alturism in it, given what I've seen on websites linked from this thread.



On what grounds is psychiatry a science?

Just cos something calls itself a science, does not mean it is one.

Astrology for example- many astrologists would like to see astrology accepted as a science, but it never will be, cos it isn't one.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

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Posted:"On what grounds is psychiatry a science?"



it engages in peer review and follows the scientific method



here is a statistical review of the methods employed by scientologists

http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_Abstract_Title.html

the short answer is it does absolutly nothing at all one way or the other.



given phycatric treatments have to pass govement approval which meens they have to be show to work more effectively than the placebo effect that would imply phycatry is more effective than scientology



also you dodged the question if you had to pick one of the two which would it be and why

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87wt2gxq7
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Posted:Post deleted by 87wt2gxq7
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robnunchucks
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Posted:i would also like to second that i dont think dave has read the links go here http://www.xenu.net/ dave and have a read my personal recomendation is the interview with the founders son



here is a section of the interview



Penthouse: Didn't your father have any interest in helping people?



Hubbard: No.



Penthouse: Never?



Hubbard: My father started out as a broke science-fiction writer. He was always broke in the late 1940s. He told me and a lot of other people that the way to make a million was to start a religion. Then he wrote the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health while he was in Bayhead, New Jersey. When we later visited Bayhead, in about 1953, we were walking around and reminiscing --he told me that he had written the book in one month.



Penthouse: Let's get back to how you saw Scientology working on an individual basis. What if someone wrote to your father asking if he could cure their cancer?



Hubbard: He'd say, Oh, yes, he could handle that.



Penthouse: And what would be the charge for curing cancer?



Hubbard: Back in those days it was anywhere from $10 to $25 an hour. Now, it's up to $300 or more an hour.



the full inteview (facinateing read) and much more can be found here http://www.xenu.net/

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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks




also you dodged the question if you had to pick one of the two which would it be and why



No- I answered it in quite a lot of detail smile

To summarise- ideally neither- but, if I really had to choose one or the other, I'd go for scientology. For reasons why, check my post above.


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But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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onewheeldave
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Posted:I've just been to your recommended link-



http://www.xenu.net/





My first impression is that it seems to lack objectivity smile



'Baloney Detection Kit' is one of its first links, so not much chance of an unbiased assessment there.



To me, a damning indictement by a son who clearly had issues with his father is not necessarily fatal to scientology- this is clearly an issue with two sides.



I would also comment on the fact that the interview is in a porn mag smile



I will however, work through some of the info on the site, but, if I want objective info on the issue, I'd probably go elsewhere.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: 87wt2gxq7



 Written by: onewheeldave

Concerning scientology-



Which is the topic of this thread. If you're just having a go at psychiatry, well that's something for another thread.











As I explained before, critisisms of scientolgy would seem to imply that it's significantly worse than the alternative (psychiatry).



If psychiatry has serious defects and causes as much, or more, harm than scientology, then that is, IMO, highly relevant to the issue.



Particularly if psychiatry is guilty of the same faults being attributed to scientology (eg, preying on the vulnerable).



As I said before, the relative worth of scientology in comparison to psychiatry would lie in the results of the treatments.



IMO, if people experience more benefits from scientology, then it's more valuable than the alternatives- however outlandish its core beliefs are.







 Written by: 87wt2gxq7







I am sorry that you were given a rough ride by NHS psychiatrists.









I wasn't, i had enough sense (and luck) to not get pulled in.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
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Rouge Dragon
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Posted:So if you have an issue with NHS psychiatrists, how would you feel about psychiatrists if the system was different? Or even if you were in another country with a different system?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


robnunchucks
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Posted:did you actualy read the balony detection kit section? it isn't about scientology is a section about Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric. for people who may not have a firm graps of critical reasoning skills it is a page designed to show people how to criticaly evaulate information and reasoning. scientology isn't mentioned once on the entire page.



you will also note that the son said he liked his father

Penthouse: Have you ever wished your father dead?

Hubbard: I don't believe so, no. Regardless of the things he's done to me --we had a helluva good time!

Penthouse: Ripping the world off?

Hubbard: We did! I enjoyed my life then, and I enjoy it now. And really, as far as crimes go. I think my father has received the ultimate punishment, which is being locked and trapped in his own insanity. There's no way out for him.



you jumped to a conclusion without reading the artical.



most of the posts are from ex-scientologysts and the entire site is very heavyly refrenced includeing offical govermenet documents court records etc. even FBI and goverment reports on scientology



as for the porn mag i refer you to item one of the balony detection kit Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.



PLEASE READ THE ARTICALS BEFORE COMMENTING ON HOW BIAST THEY MUST ME.



im starting to supsect you are trying to defend scientology because they share your views on phyciatry. actualy they dont they equate them with hittler and clame they ruteenly drug and rape patents i know you are an intellegent and reasonable person dave so i know you dont think that but please remember



my enemys enemy is NOT my friend



just because scientology happen to share your dislike of phycologists doesn't meen thats they aren't worse!!



think hard dave do you realy think there is any value to what scientologists are suggesting or are you simply sideing with them because you dislike phyciatry?

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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


So if you have an issue with NHS psychiatrists, how would you feel about psychiatrists if the system was different? Or even if you were in another country with a different system?



Well, it depends totally on whether they're any good or not smile

Are they operating within a good admin system that can make an appointment and fulfill it reasonably close to the stated time?

If they need to transfer patient info between two departments can they do so without losing it?

Can the doctor spend a decent amount of time with his/her patients, or is it a 5 minute slot, UK NHS GP style?

Assuming the admin is OK, what are the results of the treatment?- does it tend to produce positive individuals in reasonable control of their life and emotions, or does it tend to fob them off with pills that sedate them sufficiently to not be seen as disruptive or strange, yet which fails to address the underlying issues causing the behaviour in the first place.

If it produces good results, then I expect I'd be all for it.

Then again, if some bizarre system based on a theology of a giant galactic god-toad which 'treated' patients by invoking relevant demons, yet happened to produce consistently good results in those it treated, then I'd be all for that too.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


did you actualy read the balony detection kit section? it isn't about scientology is a section about Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric. for people who may not have a firm graps of critical reasoning skills it is a page designed to show people how to criticaly evaulate information and reasoning. scientology isn't mentioned once on the entire page.




I did read it. They should have called it something along the lines of 'Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric' and I'd be OK with it.

By calling it 'balony detection kit ' and linking to it in the context of an anit-scientologist page, they display a clear bias and compromise their objectivity.


 Written by: robnunchucks


as for the porn mag i refer you to item one of the balony detection kit Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.




If there's an article in 'The Sun' newspaper, I'm not going to particulalry take it seriously cos they have a clear record of sensationalising issues and distorting facts- for similar reasons I don't seek out articles in porn mags.

That's not to say the article is necessarily flawed, just that I'm natuaraly wary of articles in porn mags- the main function of porn mags isn't to educate smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Stone
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Posted:robnunchucks, I agree with OWD as for as citing stories from porn mag goes.

Perhaps you could add this to the baloeny detection kit: Just because someone publishes an article, that forwards your argument, doesnt make it a credible source. I think you have to question a source, that many would consider exploits, women.

I thought Sweeneys Panorama documentary on Scientology was rubbish; a beat up for publicity at best. He provoked them, and got what he deserved. He broke all the rules from the Clambake site

HE rushed into adopting a potential solution before carefully researching the cult problem.

HE acted in an angry or hostile manner towards the cult members.

HE antagonised the cult member by ridiculing their beliefs.

HE was judgmental or confrontational towards the cult member.

HE antagonized many of the cult's leaders or members.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


robnunchucks
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Posted:ok so thats not good enough for you eh?



ok FBI reports on scientology with links to the origonal copys http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/



information from scientologys searct police serivce documenting methodology and practises

http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/index.htm



a website documenting a girl who died as a result of scientologist therpys

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/



the story of a mentaly disturbed scientologist who was not aloud treament eventualy resulting him brutaly murdering his own mother

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/



a time magasen artical on scientology

http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html



a huge selection of affidavits from various ex-member of scientology

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/



a document discribeing the concept of fair game it states that an enemy(critic) of scientology "May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist."

http://www.fairgamed.org/fairgame.htm



compartive study of scientology read the hidden practises section

http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/index.htm



a 64 year man imprisoned for protesting scientology because he joke he'ed send them a tom cruze missle

http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/04/scientology-fugitive-arrested/



finaly a nice little list of crimes and the evidence for them commited by scientology http://scientology-lies.com/crimes/index.html



a interview with an ex scientology talking about child abuse been accepted within the orginisation

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/astra-1.htm



an affidavit of an ex-memeber talking about how information from counceling sessions the person thought was confidental would be used to black mail and manipulate the person should they question the church

http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/prince19990820.html#23

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onewheeldave
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Posted:For anyone who believes that the psychiatric system does not force treatment on people, or exploit and abuse the vulnerable, here's a page of personal accounts of psychiatric survivors

http://www.mindfreedom.org/personal-stories

Here's a page opposing the growing problem of routinely prescribing behaviour modifying drugs to school children

http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/6443


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But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
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robnunchucks
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Posted:LOL ok dave first ones fair enough phyciatry is not perfect and there are no dout mistakes however i'ed like to note that most of the storys are about electro shock something long since abandoned for the exact reasons stated here



however the second smile im afraid you have failed to check your sources dave the CCHR is actualy a front group for scientology which has set up a large number of dummy coperations and groups



heres a list http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/cult-front-groups-latest.htm



dont beleave me do a search is is not the only list and the fact that CCHR is a front set up in 1969 and funded by scientology is mentioned several times by a large number of independ sources



any comment on the information i've posted?

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onewheeldave
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Posted: Written by: robnunchucks



LOL ok dave first ones fair enough phyciatry is not perfect and there are no dout mistakes however i'ed like to note that most of the storys are about electro shock something long since abandoned for the exact reasons stated here



however the second smile im afraid you have failed to check your sources dave the CCHR is actualy a front group for scientology which has set up a large number of dummy coperations and groups



heres a list http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/cult-front-groups-latest.htm



dont beleave me do a search is is not the only list and the fact that CCHR is a front set up in 1969 and funded by scientology is mentioned several times by a large number of independ sources.....





Including the CCHR site itself-



 Written by: CCHR



What is CCHR?





CCHR International headquarters in Los Angeles, California

The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) is a non-profit, public benefit organization dedicated to investigating and exposing psychiatric violations of human rights. It also ensures that criminal acts within the psychiatric industry are reported to the proper authorities and acted upon.





Dr. Thomas Szasz

CCHR was founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and the internationally acclaimed author, Dr. Thomas Szasz,









Given that scientologists consider psychiatry to be corrupt, it's not surprising that they're going to be behind several anti-psychiatry movements, or that they publish accounts of, what they see as being examples of psychiatric misdemeanors.



Equally, i can see how you may find the claims of such sites dubious and, I must admit, when I posted the link I was not aware of the scientology connection- they were just two sites that came up on an initial search.



Glad you consider the first one OK.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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Stone
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Posted:robnunchucks, as far as Im concerned there is not a lot of difference b/t scientology and any other religion. So I don't understand why everyone gets on their soap box each time a reporter does a beat up on scientology. Most other religions are accepted because they have been around for a long time.



All religions exploit their congregations for money as well as other more sinister purposes. As for the criticism of people not being free to leave scientology, the catholics practice excommunication and the penalty for leaving Islam is death.



As far as the links go, most of the links are from the same source, and Im not sure FBI files from the height of the McCarthy era are that relevant.



robnunchucks, Im not sure what point you are making in the quote below, but they still use electroconvulsive therapy to treat depression amongst other things.



 Written by:

however i'ed like to note that most of the storys are about electro shock something long since abandoned for the exact reasons stated here







smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldave
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Posted:Link to WIKI article on electroconvulsive therapy-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy


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But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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Spanner
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Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



Psychiatry also targets the vulnerable (the depressed, the mentally ill).







Well of course it does - that's who's it's meant to help!

The difference is that psychiatry does not actively seek these people in order exploit those weaknesses and to make money as a result, as I and many others have personally witnessed scientology to do.

For goodness sake: if you go to a doctor about your mind/illness, you at least know that there is a good chance you will be referred to a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Conversely, you wouldn't expect to be recruited into Scientology via your dentist any more than you'd expect to be dragged into the local Satanic circle when you pop down to the corner shop!



Your arguments regarding psychiatry/psychology seem to be based on your negative experience with the NHS, which is quite understandable and I don't deny that some of the things you describe do happen.

However, having also had direct mixed experiences regarding their psychological and psychiatric care, I simply don't believe that some of the things you speculate about are as representative of current and common practice as you would have us believe even in the NHS, let alone the wider field of mental health, yet you still seem to insist that it's a fair comparison to the ongoing and often fatal exploitation which is not just an aspect of Scientology, but is Scientology shrug


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robnunchucks
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Posted:seems i was wrong about it not been used however after reading the page you provided there seems to be evidence for it haveing a positive effect in 60%-70% acording to goverment reports for people with depresion for a short period. however i do agree that ALL patitens should be given the option to opted out. non the less there is evedience to show that it has positive effects. there also seems to be a great deal of recearch into whether any long term damage is caused all the research seems to indicate that there is no lasting damage



but yes i would agree opt out should be given to all pateients however when you have seriously deranged people geting them to make an informed dicision is often very hard so its a tricky issue however study have shown that it is benifical to people with certain types of problem



as for them been as bad as any other religion i would agree that some religions maby are as bad however they are normaly in countrys with religious goverments, i will also concide that at the hight of its power the catholic church was just if not more nasty. my point is that in most developed countrys with secular goverments the worst religion is currently scientology. im going to use the catholic church for comparoson



Cathoisism

giveing money to the church is volentary you dont have to give any money.



if family memebers or friends are non catholic you are still aloud to asscociate with them.



confesions are protected by church law as confidental.



there are no conciquences for leaveing the church.



other than a rebutal there are no conciquences for critisizeing the church.



church beleafs are avadiable to any one catholic or not



Scientology

giveing money is mandatory and the amount of money you need to give gets larger the longer you've been with the church many people as a result end up working full time for them because they can't aford to pay any other way.



if family members or friends are non scientologists you must disconect cuting all contact with them.



people beleave there confestions (auditing) to be confidental when in fact everything is recorded incase the church needs to blackmail that person later



leaveing the church meens been shuned by all members sent threatening letters been phycialy indimidated haveing people spread lies about you such as you are a pedofile etc. also anything they know from confesions that is embaresing will be made public.



critizising the church results in you been decarled fair game meening it is ok for scientologists to lie steal from or injure you without fear of reprisel from the church. there have also been several cases of people been framed for crimes they didn't commit by the church.



church beleafs are protected and any atempts to spread them will result in laws sues and threats from the church

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handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks




Cathoisism
giveing money to the church is volentary you dont have to give any money.

if family memebers or friends are non catholic you are still aloud to asscociate with them.

confesions are protected by church law as confidental.

there are no conciquences for leaveing the church.

other than a rebutal there are no conciquences for critisizeing the church.

church beleafs are avadiable to any one catholic or not

Scientology
giveing money is mandatory and the amount of money you need to give gets larger the longer you've been with the church many people as a result end up working full time for them because they can't aford to pay any other way.




No rob- I would say that you, and others here, are showing a heavy bias.

Giving money to scientology is notmandatory- the church of scientology cannot force anyone to give money or receive treatment.

There are costs for using the service they offer (as with most things), but everyone is free not to get involved.

Other churches like the catholic church have been involved in numourous exploititative scandels, including widespread systematic child abuse and covering up of child abuse, as well as many of the things cited against scientology in terms of gaining members, making it difficult for them to leave, etc, etc.

I suspect that, of the two organisations, the catholic church is the richer (can anyone verify this?) and that much of those riches were gained through exploitation.

As for psychiatry being a choice- there's several large pressure groups fighting for the rights of individuals to not be compulsorily subjected to ECT.

When talking about 'choice', at least be even and equal in it's meaning- as far as I can tell, if people exploited by other churches, or those who feel they are victims of psychiatry, are free to walk away, then so are those involved in scientology.

Read some of those links to sites campaigning for the right to protection from psychiatry- you'll find similar links and stories to those on the anti-scientology sites: people are being abused by the psychiatric system and, I would imagine, in far greater numbers than scientology can manage.

And, for all it's alleged faults, scientology does seem to be one of the big players in making those abuses public and offering rsourses to victims of the psychiatric system.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:"Giving money to scientology is notmandatory- the church of scientology cannot force anyone to give money or receive treatment."



you know what i meen dave scientologists have to give money to remain in the church catholics dont this is the reason that it is clasifyed as a buissness in most countrys rather than a religion



scientology has also been involved in child abuse and covering (see my earlyer links) it up hence why i didn't include that in my list of diffrences



and my point regarding been free to walk away was while scientology doesn't always physicaly stop people from leaveing (it depends whos in charge at the partical branch wether someone will atempt to physicaly drag you back) leaveing results in the lauch of a smear campain and harrasment by scientologysts they will get threating phone calls and, people going through there bins people following them if information was retreaved in auditing that is embaresing it will be used to blackmain them. to come back into scientology which meens they have to start paying again. catholisism does no such and why in phyciatry people are physicaly restrained they are not blackmailed and nether is confidentaly and embaresing information about the realeased should they leave. nore are they sent threating letter and have members of there faimlys harrased



you also stated that chatolisism makes it difficult to leave can you post an example?



finaly yes people shouldn't be exposed to electro shock against there will i agree with you that its something that needs chageing i said that in my previous post. but this fact alone does not meens that every area of phyciatry is evil useless and harmfull. phyciatry is by no meens a perfect cure for all mental illness the point is that statisicaly it is more benifical to people than no treatment at all.



what every you think of phychiatry surely you can agree that scintology is both useless, harmfull and explotitive.

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1180543603)


My nunchucks vital statictics biggrin

weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:No, actually I can't, having had no personal experience of it or knowing many who have.

The fact that there are numerous smear campaigns against it isn't going to decide it for me.

Psychiatry however, I have made my mind up on, due to a combination of personal experience, accounts of people I know who've been victims of it, plus the extensive online accounts, plus the extensive well-documented past atrocities (lobotomys) and present ones (doping of schoolchildren, compulsory ECT).

It really does seem to me that the harm claimed to be done by scientology is considerably less than that done by psychiatry.

And, whatever the faults of scientology, as I pointed out before, it does seem to be the most active opposition to psychiatry offenses- so that is at least one way in which scientology isn't 'useless'.

Having been involved in this thread, I do intend, when the opportunity becomes available, to attend a scientology 'information event', at which point I will adjust my opinion of scientology accordingly.

maybe what this comes down to is that I've always been a it of an individualist- not having any kind of 'sheep' mentality and always having a tendency to see dodgy aspects in established organisations that the general public seem to accept as being respectable simply cos they're the norm.

So, I do appreciate that many of you are concerned about scientology- what bothers me (a lot!) is that you don't seem to apply the same level of discernment when it comes to (more accepted) organisations like psychiatry, when they seem to have pretty much the same issues as you're accusing scientology of.

Maybe if we got a grip on the faults in those respected/established organisations, we wouldn't have so many vulnerable people looking for things like scientology.

I just get a bit sick of the prejudice displayed towards any alternaitive health/spiritual system simply cos they're not 'establishment approved'- particularly when the grounds for the critisism can equally be applied to the establishment alternatives.

If you've got a problem with scientology, stay away from it- no-one can force you to get into it.

However bad it is I doubt it's achieved anything like the levels of misery that psychiatry, with its past 57,000 lobotomised men, women and children (and not a single conviction for the perpetrators), its current compulsory infliction of ECT and its current policies of doping under-age schoolchildren.

How was it that a man could make a career from driving a pick through the eye socket of vulnerable victims to dice the frontal lobes of their brain, to the tune of, at his peak, something like 20-a-day.

How could it be that he was not only not arrested and charged, but was appluaded as an innovator and left to practice this sickness on countless more victims.

IMO, cos he was establishment and possibly also cos the public were no doubt so focused on whatever witch hunt against some minority alternative cause was in vogue at the time, that they didn't even think to look closer to home and question what orthodox psychiatry was getting up to.

What do you think?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I think this is a great discussion that is danger of going off topic. Would anyone like to start a new thread discussing the benefits new age therapies in comparison to modern psychology?

robnunchucks, to answer your questions:

Many Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) support their churches and pastors with monetary contributions called tithes. A tithe is a one-tenth part of something, paid as a (usually???) voluntary contribution or as a tax or levy, usually to support a Jewish or Christian religious organization (wiki).

Excommunication is a religious censure used to deprive or suspend membership in a religious community The Roman Catholic Church has an extensive history of the uses of excommunication, especially during the Middle Ages (wiki).

And the not so middle ages, I'd say wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:offtopic: excommunication is currently used for people who go against dogma. There are a few cases that allow for immediate dismissal-but shhhh, you can work your way back

in scientology from what I understand you need to pay to move up. in chritianity, you need to study and participate, it's free. Tithing is voluntary, some churches lean on you a bit heavier for it.
If you buy into scientology, I think it could be good as a motivational, be all you can be group.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks


finaly yes people shouldn't be exposed to electro shock against there will



Not only shouldn't they be forced to undergo electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) against their will, IT IS NOT DONE. Not in the last 30 years, anyway. In fact, the only time a psychiatric therapy may be administered without the patient's consent is if the psychiatrist believes that the patient is not mentally sound to be making her own decisions. This is basically resolved for acutely psychotic, nonverbal, violent, or acutely suicidal patients. The psychiatrist is liable for both criminal and civil penalties for abuse of this power.

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is performed only as a last resort and for severe depression only. It has not been shown to treat any other condition, including schizophrenia, and is not used for psychosis.

ECT is performed under general anesthesia and paralysis. The patient does not convulse! A current is applied to the temples and this causes a self-limited seizure. The patient does not convulse because she is under general anesthesia. There is some twitching of the facial muscles when the current is applied, but that is because of the direct stimulation of the muscle fibers by the current.

Through a mechanism that is not well understood, this seems to be very helpful in depression. The side-effects are minimal and are usually more attributable to the anesthesia than the ECT itself. Some mild amnesia (that surrounds the therapy) has been reported. Contrary to popular belief, no patient has ever lost all of his memory through ECT and ECT cannot do this. (This was done on the TV show, House MD and I wrote them a very angry letter about their willful and destructive misrepesentation of ECT).

ECT CANNOT EVER be done without the consent of the patient (at least not in the U.S. and I'd be shocked if it were any different in the U.K. or Australia). If the patient is not psychologically sound enough to consent then she doesn't get ECT. This has been the case for at least the last 20-30 years.

To illustrate what ECT can do, a 19-year-old gentleman was brought in by his family for severe depression. He had failed SSRI's such as PROZAC and tricyclic antidepressants such as nortryptiline (ELAVIL). His depression was so severe that he was cachetic appearing because he did not eat, and he had been admitted to the hospital twice for nasogastric feeding. He had a long beard and bad body odor because he was so depressed that he couldn't even bring himself to get up to care for his hygeine.

Three months later, after completing a course of ECT, he had gained ten pounds, was planning on finishing his high school education (which, you can imagine, had gone by the wayside), and reported that he was pursuing romantic interests. He was well-groomed, clean, and smiling. The only side-effect was that he could not remember coming to the hospital for any of his ECT sessions.

He'll need careful psychiatric follow-up for the rest of his life and he may need repeat courses of ECT, but ECT is by far the safest and most effective therapy for depression.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:They did a story on it in the news. They use it for "emergency" cases. Antidepressants need a few months to work. ECT, you can feel the results very soon after. I considered, but I don't think the depression I have is that bad (for now).
It was very hopeful. When I first heard about it, I thought are you serious?, but then I listened and they made a good case.
What does scientology do for depression? Tell you to get over it. It's all in our head.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


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