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DominoSILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK


Posted:
Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
w8t7g7x2q, psychiatry is Greek for “healing of the spirit”. And I don’t see much healing in modern Western practices.



Most psychiatric illnesses cannot currently be cured, although recovery may occur (wiki). From what I can see, modern western psychiatry is still living in the dark ages when it comes to understanding the mind. I would suggest that most (not all) people would get more out taking a new age self development course rather than seeing a Western practitioner. I think there is a wider choice than Electro Convulsive Therapy and drugs. Or the Church’s option - exorcism.



Spanner, the point for me is that all religions are dodgey. I was brought up a Roman Catholic, and still feel I was somewhat “brainwashed” by them. I think your description of scientology as “pyramid selling scheme which still depends on identifying and exploiting weaknesses of the vunerable from their first contact” could be used for any religion.



To answer your question, why would anyone go as far as to defend scientology? I would suggest that scientology, like many of the new religious movements, is based on Buddhist/Hindu self-development philosophies that go back to antiquity. And it’s that Eastern philosophies that I support, rather than scientology itself.



Faith, for information on Opus Dei. I don’t necessarily agree with these people, but I was making a point that most religions have their secrets. There are also unanswered questions about the roles that Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


alien_oddityCarpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees


Posted:
i caught the late edition of this program last night and my god, those nutters don't give up do they!

dreamSILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand


Posted:
hug's Ana...

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I guess part of what I'm saying is that pretty much every accusation made against scientology applies to the victims of psychiatry as well.



Psychiatry also targets the vulnerable (the depressed, the mentally ill).



Just as you were referred to the group by an 'agent of scientology' who was a respected professional (a dentist), psychiatry has it's own 'agents'- respected (and well meaning) GP's who refer the vulnerable- indeed often helping to soften them up by (in the UK), as virtually a matter of procedure, prescribed anti-depressent medication at the first sign of depression.



I'm not defending the methods of scientology- quite possibly the reason they despise psychiatry is cos, at heart, the two are pretty similar- both quack systems that target the vuinerable.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Neon_ShaolinGOLD Member
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam


Posted:
Thanks for that Spanner clap

I think my perceived 'Complacency' is more down to trying to rise above being actively critical of someone else's belief system without knowing all the facts even if they won't afford me the same luxury. And also to stay on topic to avoid turning this thread into an indictment of Scientology instead of focusing on the Panorama documentary itself.

I can imagine how scary it is to be followed home, not only by one person but to have an organisation behind them.

The fact that I am even slightly wary of posting my opinions on this site lest it be monitored speaks volumes about the stance I SHOULD be taking.

Another problem I have is the world SELF-help, their stance seems to focus on ME! ME! ME! Rather than providing genuine strength to make themselves and the world around them a better place. The fact that it's most high-profile members consist of movie stars - egotistical people who make a living by lying, pretending to be someone they're not should be warning enough.

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
In 1985, I'd just walked out of one of those "special" cafes in Amsterdam, and was approached by a rather nice looking woman who asked me if I'd like to participate in a 10 minute survey. All I had to do was come up to this room, fill out a multiple choice questionnaire, and that would be it....Seemed simple enough.

I got up there, sat down and was handed this massive multiple choice "booklet" that was asking all sorts of personal information that I really didn't feel like discussing with strangers at that moment in time but decided to go with the flow anyway and started reading and answering. About a third of the way through I decided that this was taking way too long, and I had more interesting things to do with my time, so I just randomly ticked boxes on the remaining pages thinking I'd just get this over with and be on my way.

WRONG

The "surveyors" asked me to wait a moment while they "reviewed" my "answers" and came back with a graph of my personality which they wished to discuss with me. First they focused on the "high points" of my personality,,,great..I thought..too bad I made up most of the answers...can I go now ? Then they started in on the "low" points.

Even though I'd just randomly ticked boxes, they were right. Yes, I had to answer truthfully, I do act that way sometimes ( in retrospect...they were telling me that I was acting out of self interest...big whoop...so does most of the world ) and if I bought this series of books that they had piled on the table, I'd be well on the way to "fixing" my personality and character "flaws"

No thanks i said,,I'm currently touring Europe on a bicycle, and I don't want to carry a bunch of heavy books as I'm cycling UP the alps, plus I wasn't interested in parting with that kind of money for literature when I had more important needs , like food and beer.

These guys ( there were three of them now,,that nice woman who "invited" me up had disappeared ) and they weren't interested in taking no for an answer.,,,Now I'd never heard of Scientology, I had no idea what dianetics was all about, I just figured these guys were booksellers and when i decided I'd had enough and got up to leave, one of the guys beat me to, and stood in front of the door.

It was then that I decided that I'd have to fight, and it was only (IMO) through threats of physical violence on my part that the guy stepped away from the door.

Usually, I'm a pretty tolerant guy when it comes to religious beliefs, even if I do class those beliefs as a bunch of bullshit...but hey..if it works for you.....But this type of coercive recruitment has jaded me against Scientologists for life..

YakumoSILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
eek

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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


I'm not defending the methods of scientology- quite possibly the reason they despise psychiatry is cos, at heart, the two are pretty similar- both quack systems that target the vuinerable.



I have a fair amount of evidence that modern psychiatric therapy can make a huge difference in the quality of life of patients suffering from bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, schizophrenia, psycosis phobias, and ADHD. It's not just what I've seen, it's very well-designed studies that prove that these therapies work.

Scientology has no such evidence behind it.

Quite simply, OWD, the brain is an organ. It is the most complex organ in the body. 60% of genes in the human genome are expressed solely in the brain and spinal cord. That's a heck of a lot that can go wrong.

All opinions are irrelevant without facts to back them up. Including yours.

It's attitudes like yours that make people delay getting proper medical care until they wind up in the ER with a paracetamol overdose because they didn't "believe in" psychiatry.

Psychiatrists cannot force a patient to undergo therapy without proper legal procedure. Consent by the patient is otherwise mandatory. Scientology frequently forces people into rituals and procedures without any consent of any sort.

Psychiatrists are bound by the Hippocratic oath. Scientologists have no such oath.

Psychiatrists don't recruit people, people go to them.

I'm not saying that psychiatry is perfect. Nothing's perfect. Psychiatrists are humans and they make mistakes, they put their own interests before the patient's, and sometimes allow their own emotions towards the patient (counter-transference) to interfere with their medical decisions.

But they are not generally malevolent, they are not out to kidnap people and tear them from their families, and they don't believe in their own superiority over humanity as a basic tenet of their religion.

There are a lot of differences, Dave, and I find it horribly offensive that you would equate a group of physicians to a group of money-grubbing religious fanatics.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: Doc Lightning





It's attitudes like yours that make people delay getting proper medical care until they wind up in the ER with a paracetamol overdose because they didn't "believe in" psychiatry.







In some cases, that is a good thing and basically saves them from an overdose.



 Written by: Doc Lightning







Psychiatrists cannot force a patient to undergo therapy without proper legal procedure. Consent by the patient is otherwise mandatory.





Neither can scientology.



 Written by: Doc Lightning





Psychiatrists are bound by the Hippocratic oath. Scientologists have no such oath.



Psychiatrists don't recruit people, people go to them.









They get referred by people they're brought up to have complete trust in.





 Written by: Doc Lightning





There are a lot of differences, Dave, and I find it horribly offensive that you would equate a group of physicians to a group of money-grubbing religious fanatics.





It's not the first time you've been offended by a POV of mine, i'm sure it won't be the last either smile



I'm glad you see the success stories of the psychiatric profession and the successes of the medical profession in general- as I've pointed out on other threads, I've seen the failures, including family members butchered by those systems- so it's not surprising we have different perspectives.



It's only 5 months since my father spent his last weeks having his suffering made worse by our totally inept NHS admin system which made a mistake on pretty much every visit to the hospital, including missing medicars, medicars sent to the wrong address, waiting in a lobby for an hour cos a doctors writing was so illegible than a chemist couldn't read it etc, etc, etc.



Then, on what was to be his last day on this earth, was mainly spent in a corridoor cos of lack of bed space.



I'm glad your health system is so much better than ours and that it has a decent admin system where mistakes are the exception rather than the norm.



Over here it's different, so you'll have to excuse the fact that I don't have much respect for it.



Would you comment on the lobotomy stuff I posted about, or does the fact that it happened in the past make it irrelevant?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


Would you comment on the lobotomy stuff I posted about, or does the fact that it happened in the past make it irrelevant?



Lobotomies have not been performed for several decades. No living physician, to my knowlege, has ever seen one or performed one. To my knowledge, there is no living patient who has had a lobotomy for psychiatric reasons (lobectomies are still done in cases of refractory epilepsy, and with huge success).

So yeah, it's pretty irrelevant.

I might just as well bring up King James and his treatment of the American Colonists as a reason why England is a bad country.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I guess we'll just have to disagree on the relevance then, cos I think the fact that the US and UK psyciatric professions lobotomised 57,000 people between them, several decades ago, is relevant.



It's far from the only atrocity committed by the psychiatric profession- I'm sure I don't need to remind you why the term '"hysterectomy" sounds so much like hysteria? (cos psyciatrists felt that 'hysterical' behaviour in women- ie anything not conforming to the norm, could be 'cured' by removal of parts or all of their reproductive organs.



It may be history, but I feel those precedents go some way to explaining current abuses (of which there are many well documented instances).



Especially in the context of the UK psyciatric profession, here and now, routinely treating 'disruptive' school children of ages as low as 8, with drugs that make their behaviour 'acceptable' i.e. doping them.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Thanks for sharing Spanner. I’m really surprised that a registered Dentist practice could get away with that. It really undermines the health system.

Ok a few things, scientology is classified as a religion, not a self-development or new age education institute. So we really need to compare apples with apples. Confusion could arise because most western religions only offer a set of rules to follow to reach heaven, and if you don’t follow those rules then you go to “hell”. Which is a form of manipulation in it’s self.

Lightning, I’m not convinced that modern psychiatric therapy has really come to terms with understanding the human brain. I’m sure there are some well-designed, drug company sponsored, studies that prove that giving kids Dex amphetamine (speed) and adults anti depressants drugs like prozac work in the short term. But in the long term, you are likely to end up with a nation of drug dependents. I’m not sure about lobotomy, but they still use ECT.

A good start would be if psychiatrists took of their white coats of superiority and looked at some of the eastern practices that go back to antiquity. Fortunately, some have.

Mindfulness, largely associated with Buddhism, the practice of mindfulness is also advocated by such people as medical researcher and author Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn who developed the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) program. MBSR is a form of complementary medicine offered in over 200 U.S. hospitals and is currently the focus of a number of research studies funded by The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.”

Health applications and clinical studies of meditation In the recent years there has been a growing interest within the medical community to study the physiological effects of meditation. Many concepts of meditation have been applied to clinical settings in order to measure its effect on somatic motor function as well as cardiovascular and respiratory function. Also the hermeneutic and phenomenological aspects of meditation are areas of growing interest. Meditation has entered the mainstream of health care as a method of stress and pain reduction.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


It's far from the only atrocity committed by the psychiatric profession- I'm sure I don't need to remind you why the term '"hysterectomy" sounds so much like hysteria? (cos psyciatrists felt that 'hysterical' behaviour in women- ie anything not conforming to the norm, could be 'cured' by removal of parts or all of their reproductive organs.



That would be the ancient Greeks, actually.

But that's OK, Dave. I personally accept responsibility for their mis-deeds, as well.

All for you. rolleyes

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
the reason scientology dislikes psycahiatry is not because of any scientific or reasoned disagreement with there methods but simply because there founder L Ron was repeately exposed as a con artist and a fraud by phycologists as a result he demonised them in his religion as a form of revenge



the best way to understand sicentology is to understand the founder L ron. heres a link to an intervew with l rons son who is now in hidding for leaveing the church.



https://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm



facinateing intervew that explains the mind set of the founder once you understand that its pritty easy to understand the nature of the orginizastion he created
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Mr_JoePart-time genius
59 posts
Location: Netherlands


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


They get referred by people they're brought up to have complete trust in.





The difference being that doctors need to undergo years of study at commonly recognised and verified sources before they're allowed to be called doctors and scientologist just need to sign a form.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Actually it takes a lot of time commitment and financial commitment to become a scientologist who can 'treat' the public.

(I'm not approving of scientology treatments there, simply pointing out that they have to undergo a lot of training in the system).

As for doctors (GP's)- they may spend years in training, but that does not give them in depth understanding of mental health issues- their training is of the general variety, not specialised.

My concern is that, in the UK, prescribing of anti-depressents seems to be used routinely as a diagnostic tool (take this and let's see what happens to your mental state).

Meaning that often, those releuctant to do so (take pills), are effectively hindered, or even barred, from the counselling that they are really after.

Maybe not the doctors fault- they operate within the NHS with its time restraints, they simply do not have the time available to treat all patients with the care they require.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by: onewheeldave


Especially in the context of the UK psyciatric profession, here and now, routinely treating 'disruptive' school children of ages as low as 8, with drugs that make their behaviour 'acceptable' i.e. doping them.



Ever read my story about the psychotic 5-year-old?

I would imagine that antipsychotics would be better and healthier for him than institutionalization.

They used to treat these kids with institutionalization, with repeated punishments, with expulsion, and other such methods. The results were horrible.

There are people on these boards who have benefited greatly from just such therapies. And they include me.

But that's OK, because I guess I'm just doped up. So who should listen to me?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Actually, OWD, you're now just arguing for the heck of it.

So I'm not taking the bait. bye

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
It's up to you if you want to engage in discussion- I'm not 'arguing for the heck of it' I'm posting my opinion based on my experiences.

I've never denied that some may benefit from psychiatric pharmacuticals.

 Written by:


They used to treat these kids with institutionalization, with repeated punishments, with expulsion, and other such methods. The results were horrible.




I know- I did myself mention the lobotomy outrages, many of which were inflicted on minors.

Things were bound to improve, if only cos they couldn't really get any worse.

None of which justifies the kind of 'doping' of minors we're seeing in ever increasing numbers in UK schools.

That's not to critisise all use of psychiatric pharmacuticals.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I noticed that many of the actual stated critisisms against scientology also applied equally to medical psychiatry.

It's happened before on HOP where someone has critisised some alternative/new age health system with points that apply equally to western medicine, or indeed, any imaginable health system (e.g. x had a new-age treatment and died- that's not a valid critisism of a new-age health system cos many have conventional treatment and also die).

So, I'm not saying scientology=good, (personally I wouldn't go near it with a bargepole smile

Essentially what happened is, someone critisised scientology on a point which applied equally to psychiatry- i suggested that the worth of any mental health system is, IMO, in the results it produces and wondered if scientologies results were as bad, or better, than psychiatries results.

I also pointed out some of the many past, and present, abuses that the psyciatric profession has committed.

Whereupon our resident spokesperson for modern medicine, took offence and we got into a discussion on it.

Apparently that discussion is now ended, which is fine with me.

I'm also happy to let this thread lie, if everyone esle is.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
"and wondered if scientologies results were as bad, or better, than psychiatries results."

There much much worse phychiatrists for example wouldn't use sesions to gleam personal and/or embaresing information from people so that it can later be used to blackmail that indidviual into line should they question the practises of phychiatrists or should they try and stop comeing to sesions nor would they resort to physical threats and intimidation.

at least they would be striped of there licence and properly face jail time if they did such a thing

this however is standard practise for scienotology

the thing to understand is scientology isn't trying to provide a realistic alternitive to phyciatry they are simply useing that as a cover so they can put them selfs into that position of power without any of the safty checks lisenceing hypocratic oath etc.

its not an argument about methods but motivation phyciatrists genuanily want to help even if they make mistakes or are misguided at time scientology is simply about trying to control people who ultimately can be disgarded if they are no longer usefull to the church

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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
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Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks



its not an argument about methods but motivation phyciatrists genuanily want to help even if they make mistakes or are misguided at time scientology is simply about trying to control people who ultimately can be disgarded if they are no longer usefull to the church



To me, it's more about results than motivation.

Take the psychiatric lobotomy atrocity mentioned earlier- 57,000 UK and US patients having a 'pick' inserted into their brains via the eye socket, to dice their frontal lobes.

The doctors who did that, presumably, had good intentions- that doesn't stop it being an atrocity.

Those doctors routinely prescribing innapropriate drugs to under-age schoolchildren, presumably, also have good intentions.

And I think you'll find that, whatever the consequences of scientologists actions, most of them are also acting with good intentions.

Most of the harm committed in this world is not done with evil intent, but with good intent by people who have the arrogant conviction that they are right.

e.g. scientologists and psychiatrists- which of the two produces/has produced the most harm is, as far as I can see, still awaiting determination.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
ok dave as lets pose a hypothetical question supose you were mental ill which would you rather be treated by a psychiatrists or a sciontologist.

can you justify your answer to so we can see your reasoning

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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
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Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks



ok dave as lets pose a hypothetical question supose you were mental ill which would you rather be treated by a psychiatrists or a sciontologist.



can you justify your answer to so we can see your reasoning





I have been mentally ill in the past. Now I'm not and aren't going to be again in the future.



But, for the sake of discussion- if, hypothetically, i did start to become mentally ill in the future, I can say that I wouldn't being going near a psychiatrist.



I've never been to a scientologist, so I can't rule them out as definitively, but, from what I've heard, personally, I don't think I'd being seeing one of those either.



The reasons I wouldn't go for psychiatric treatment are numerous-



1. they tend to be drug focused and, IMO, most mental illness is not susceptible to drugs treatments- IMO, often drugs serve simply to numb/sedate underlying problems.



I also feel that use of drugs (whether recreational or prescribed)to manage behaviour, can often lead to a block in progress with the underlying issues.



That's not to say that there are not some instances where drugs can be of benefit, i just think those instances are much rarer than the psychiatric industry thinks.



2. Treatment would involve going through the NHS system- while I would not want to critisise the majority of the medical staff/nurses/doctors etc in that system, the fact remains is that it is crippled by the totally inept, unprofessional and unnacountable admin system that goes along with it.



In my experience, that admin aspect is so atrocious, that it often has a adverse affect on actual treatment (as I mentioned earlier, my Dad recently died in the NHS system and inept admin reared its head in pretty much every aspect of his treatment).



3. Having been ill previously, i do have some experience of the psychiatric system- thankfully it was not to a deep level as some instinct of self-preservation kept me from getting sucked too deeply into it.



However, from that experience, it was obvious that the psychiatric profession had very little grasp of mental health, or any particularly valid ways of treating it.



-------



Concerning scientology- it does seem to be a bit cash focused and many seem to have had bad experiences with it- nevertheless, it lacks psychiatries relience on drug behaviour management, which I consider a plus- also, from what little I know, it does seem to focus on developing the kind of self-reliance which, IMO is a valid way of dealing with many mental health issues.



Also, from my experience with many spiritual/new-age/self improvement philosophies/exercises, I recognise that at least one of scientologies core exercises, is one that would be likely to be very useful in developing control, over ones life/emotions.



As I said before- the true criteria for which approach is best is, IMO, soley to do with the results they produce. No one here has tried to demonstrate that, in actual results, psychiatry does any better than scientology, or that psychiatry causes less damage than scientology.



The above are just my opinions.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: 87wt2gxq7




but, seeing as they're scientific disciplines that're subject to self-scrutiny and peer review, I'm willing to bet that psychiatry and psychology are improving and refining whereas scientology is just about getting your money. I really don't think that there's much alturism in it, given what I've seen on websites linked from this thread.



On what grounds is psychiatry a science?

Just cos something calls itself a science, does not mean it is one.

Astrology for example- many astrologists would like to see astrology accepted as a science, but it never will be, cos it isn't one.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
"On what grounds is psychiatry a science?"



it engages in peer review and follows the scientific method



here is a statistical review of the methods employed by scientologists

https://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_Abstract_Title.html

the short answer is it does absolutly nothing at all one way or the other.



given phycatric treatments have to pass govement approval which meens they have to be show to work more effectively than the placebo effect that would imply phycatry is more effective than scientology



also you dodged the question if you had to pick one of the two which would it be and why
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robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
i would also like to second that i dont think dave has read the links go here https://www.xenu.net/ dave and have a read my personal recomendation is the interview with the founders son



here is a section of the interview



Penthouse: Didn't your father have any interest in helping people?



Hubbard: No.



Penthouse: Never?



Hubbard: My father started out as a broke science-fiction writer. He was always broke in the late 1940s. He told me and a lot of other people that the way to make a million was to start a religion. Then he wrote the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health while he was in Bayhead, New Jersey. When we later visited Bayhead, in about 1953, we were walking around and reminiscing --he told me that he had written the book in one month.



Penthouse: Let's get back to how you saw Scientology working on an individual basis. What if someone wrote to your father asking if he could cure their cancer?



Hubbard: He'd say, Oh, yes, he could handle that.



Penthouse: And what would be the charge for curing cancer?



Hubbard: Back in those days it was anywhere from $10 to $25 an hour. Now, it's up to $300 or more an hour.



the full inteview (facinateing read) and much more can be found here https://www.xenu.net/
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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks




also you dodged the question if you had to pick one of the two which would it be and why



No- I answered it in quite a lot of detail smile

To summarise- ideally neither- but, if I really had to choose one or the other, I'd go for scientology. For reasons why, check my post above.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I've just been to your recommended link-



https://www.xenu.net/





My first impression is that it seems to lack objectivity smile



'Baloney Detection Kit' is one of its first links, so not much chance of an unbiased assessment there.



To me, a damning indictement by a son who clearly had issues with his father is not necessarily fatal to scientology- this is clearly an issue with two sides.



I would also comment on the fact that the interview is in a porn mag smile



I will however, work through some of the info on the site, but, if I want objective info on the issue, I'd probably go elsewhere.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: 87wt2gxq7



 Written by: onewheeldave

Concerning scientology-



Which is the topic of this thread. If you're just having a go at psychiatry, well that's something for another thread.











As I explained before, critisisms of scientolgy would seem to imply that it's significantly worse than the alternative (psychiatry).



If psychiatry has serious defects and causes as much, or more, harm than scientology, then that is, IMO, highly relevant to the issue.



Particularly if psychiatry is guilty of the same faults being attributed to scientology (eg, preying on the vulnerable).



As I said before, the relative worth of scientology in comparison to psychiatry would lie in the results of the treatments.



IMO, if people experience more benefits from scientology, then it's more valuable than the alternatives- however outlandish its core beliefs are.







 Written by: 87wt2gxq7







I am sorry that you were given a rough ride by NHS psychiatrists.









I wasn't, i had enough sense (and luck) to not get pulled in.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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