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DominoSILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK


Posted:
Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: robnunchucks


However, we're talking about psychiatry- as far as I'm aware, no-ones established that psychiatry is a science.

well actualy yes they have because it passes scientific double blind testing. for something to be science it needs to have clearly messure predicatable and repeatable results that show that it does that its suposed to phycatry does this and so is a science.




OK, before we go further, give me an example of such a study, preferably something that has a clear conclusion that won't require a degrees worth of study to grasp the point of.

Give me an example and then we'll see to what extent it relates to practical mental health.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Dave, with the placebo effect running at 30% I agree it would be difficult to prove that psychiatry was any better the any other alternative health/spiritual, New Age therapy. Regardless of any double-blind, scientific testing which only seems to be aimed at testing pills.

 Written by:

Having been involved in this thread, I do intend, when the opportunity becomes available, to attend a scientology 'information event', at which point I will adjust my opinion of scientology accordingly.



Dave, I understand that you are disillusioned with psychiatry. But I would suggest that there are plenty other alternative health/spiritual, New Age therapies out there that that are a lot cheaper and better than scientology.

While I’ve criticized the BBC for their dodgy reporting on scientology, and I believe most religions do a bit of indoctrinating, there is no doubt in my mind that scientology is a cult.

I would suggest that before you get to deep into scientology, you have a look at some of the alternatives like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), Landmark Education, Large Group Awareness Training, The Journey by Brandon Bays and the Secret, to name a few.

Alternatively, you go to the source as many New Age ideas are drawn from Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Sufism, Taoism, and Neo-Paganism.

I’m sure other people also have suggestions that may be useful.

Stay Safe

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Let me clear something up cos I think you've misinterpreted my intention-

I'm not looking for any form of therapy or looking for any assistence whatsoever with my state of being.

The sole reason I'd go to a scientology 'intro session' is cos people here, and elsewhere, have reported that devious tactics are used in them to try to get people sucked in to scientology.

I simply want to see, for myslef, the extent to which those tactics are used.

I've been in the postion of being a 'seeker' and am very familiar with buddhism, other eastern traditions and various new-age versions.

I sought and, I guess, I found, cos I'm no longer a seeker- so no suggestions are necessary - but thanks for the thought smile

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
heres the studys you wanted included afew incase your not happy with one of them for some reason



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...mp;dopt=medline

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez...p;dopt=Abstract

https://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/2/67

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00237497;jsessionid=3584FFBA2D8F3A7834B5CB6A961C4229?order=1

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00029458?order=1



oh yer and even if your not intrested in alternitives to therpys check out Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) its facinateing subject well worth a read about.
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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
 Written by: Stone


I would suggest that before you get to deep into scientology, you have a look at some of the alternatives like Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), Landmark Education, Large Group Awareness Training, The Journey by Brandon Bays and the Secret, to name a few.



But are they that much better than Scientology? Oh sure they don't abduct, rape, murder, and pillage, but they have about as much scientific evidence behind them as Dianetics does.

Yes, they should be investigated scientifically, but until there's evidence, I couldn't recommend any of that.

 Written by:

Alternatively, you go to the source as many New Age ideas are drawn from Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, Sufism, Taoism, and Neo-Paganism.



It always interests me how so many Westerners view these Eastern religions as somehow being superior to our own. Now, when you read their holy books it becomes apparent that these religions are far more devoted to peace and spiritual balance than, say, Christianity.

But then if you read the Bible you see a religion that is devoted to peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism.

When you meet REAL Hindus, Bhuddists, Taoists, etc, you realize that their religion is prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist BS that Christianity. Islam, and Judaism are.

So what, then, makes them sources of happiness? I can't imagine why it could be worth it to go to all the trouble to learn a whole new religion. Just go to church! wink

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
some of them do tend to be more relevant in that they contain specific exercises/activities that are meant to produce a specific effect, for example, helping a troubled mind/soul to become more peaceful.

Buddhism being a prime example with it's central, consise analysis of suffering and the means by which suffering can be addressed/overcome (the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path).

Various forms of meditation being one such tool.

Western christianity does have such things, but there are not a central part of most churches and you have to dig very deep to find them.

Of course, aside from the fundamentlist rantings, many do find peace via christianity and Islam, but equally, many find the likes of buddhism to be more effective or relevant for them.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Yet one has to discern between the underlying philosophy, the institution and the disciples.

In everything there is a grain of truth - certainly even Dianetics hold truth. Question is whether one has to go there and get it from the disciples. One truth about Dianetics, Scientology and R.L. Hubbard:

“If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion.” (Ron L Hubbard)


You can find a lot of truth in that. In everything and everybody, just be aware of why you want/ need to believe (in) something (other than yourself)...


I completely side Doc's statement:

 Written by: Doc

When you meet REAL Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc, you realize that their religion is prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist BS that Christianity. Islam, and Judaism are.



Hence it's not about the religion, but only about the philosophy and how it resonates within yourself... I'd say.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Fair question Lightning.



 Written by:

But are they that much better than Scientology? Oh sure they don't abduct, rape, murder, and pillage, but they have about as much scientific evidence behind them as Dianetics does.





I think it’s more about getting value out of the course, rather than needing scientific evidence. I did the Landmark Forum a couple of years ago, and wow did I get a lot out of that. It was like I woke up out of a deep sleep and saw life for the first time. I would say the experience was like satori or an epiphany.



I have friends who have done NLP and another who has done the Journey workshop. So, I would recommend any of those technologies for self-development. Though, they are not for everyone.



You have to be open, and you have to have the courage to look at who you really are. Then there comes a time when, imo, you have to let go of the ego, and break our deterministic programming. I would have never got through the Forum, if I hadn’t read Dave’s Ultimate Theory of Reality. That’s where I come to understand how robotic we are, and how much of our personality is based on automatic reoccurring behaviours.



As far as religion goes, I agree that all religions are prone to the same conservative and fundamentalist rubbish as Western religions. One difference I have noted is that Western religions teaches rules and strict obedience.



Buddhism, which is a philosophy, teaches people how to think for themselves. And people should act for themselves, rather than succumbing to the actions of an all-powerful god.



Mindfulness meditation is a great technique to practice. I have a friend doing a Ph.D. comparing mindfulness to drugs for treating problem adolescents.





smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
But then if you read the Bible you see a religion that is devoted to peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism.



errr have you read the bible?



"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. " (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



"And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?" (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)



"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)



"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



"Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood." (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."



Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10



Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17



Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10



A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33



not quite peace, love, humility, and non-judgementalism biggrin
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Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
they're all old testement wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
So what?



the bible is the bible its suposed to be the difinitive work of an all knowing god who sees past present and future all at once why does the fact that most of the quotes above are from the old testement excuse them?



also the old testiment contains many of the fundimental parts of the christian religion if your going to ignore it you must also ignore



the ten comandments



and the original sin of adam and eve which was the whole point of jesus sacrifiseing him self.



if you get rid of the old testement what was the point of jesus dieing on the cross and hence the point of the new testement???



you can't just ingore the old testement because its an embaresment.
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Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Because the Old Testement is all "DIE EVIL MAD VENGEFUL I AM GOD FEAR ME!!!!!"

and the New is "come here little people, I'm lovely and sweet and caring and ubblove you"

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
???????



yes the old the Old Testement is all "DIE EVIL MAD VENGEFUL I AM GOD FEAR ME!!!!!"



and theNew is mostly "come here little people, I'm lovely and sweet and caring and you"



that still not a reason why the old testement is untrue just a reason why you dont want it to be.



how do you know that the new testment isn't made up and the old testement isn't true? given that the new testement requires large sections of the old testement to make sence and the old testement doesn't need the new testiment at all it would make more sence that we should ingnore the new testement.
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Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
i dont see how it's a reason why i don't want it to be true. hell, i'm not religious, therefore as far as i'm concerned they're both a fictional read.

the point is that as far as christianity is concerned;

technically the old testement IS null and void because JC died for everyone's sins on the cross (tis why we eat chocolate at easter, folks) therefore all the mean vengeful god isn't required and is replaced by nice playschool god.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
ok fair point but what i meen is that while people do that they can't without throwing out the whole bible



JC died for everyone's sins on the cross to releave everyone of original sin something created in the old testement by adam and eve eating the apple.



if the old testement is null and void then there was no original sin and we lose the whole point of JC turning up in the first place



if we can't disgard the old testement then you can't disgard all the nasty bits of the bible that preach hate and murder.
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Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
cept isn't Original Sin a Catholic Dogma and not actually *in* the Bible? Isn't that why you need to be baptised because before you're baptised you're still sinful and haven't been cleared of the original sin yet?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
righto, so i've looked it up and it's not catholic, specifically, but JC didn't die for it and we still need to make up for it cos we're apparently all born with it.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
intresting i had always assumed it was from the bible someware however now i look it doesn't seem to be mention of original sin at all. ahh well the catholics at least can't disgard the old testement smile



your definatly right about this one original sin can't be used to validate the old testement basised on the new



these new testement quotes can however biggrin



1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.



2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)



3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)



3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)



3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)



4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)



5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)



6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)



7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18



8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).



9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
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faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
The Bible is a progression. It starts off as the strict order and then moves on to a kinder order.
JC did die for our sins, but we are still sinful. Also, we have to accept that He died for our sins. We have to accept the the gift.
Our souls are stained from original sin, and that is what baptism is for. But we still have a sinful nature. That is why the Commandments and the Beattitudes are so important. It's that mindfulness and getting us in the right state of mind
the Beattitudes for those who aren't familiar:

Matthew 5
The Sermon on the Mount; The Beatitudes
1(A)When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on (B)the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2(C)He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3"(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4"Blessed are (F)those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5"Blessed are (G)the [a]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6"Blessed are (H)those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7"Blessed are (I)the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8"Blessed are (J)the pure in heart, for (K)they shall see God.

9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for (L)they shall be called sons of God.

10"Blessed are those who have been (M)persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for (N)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people (O)insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for (P)in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

this is a quote from BibleGateway...the following passages after this also provides us with more of a blueprint on "good" behavior

Christians would agree on the whole state of mind thing

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
I have read the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon and the Q'uran. They do, of course, have rather disturbing passages in them. NT less so than OT, in my opinion, but that's a moot point.

I have not read the holy scriptures of Hinduism, Bhuddism, Taoism, etc. But I would not be surprised to find similar passages in those. Anyone know?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
faithinfire thats all fair enough and i do understand what your saying i guess all im realy trying to say is this



the bible contains passages that tell you to love eachother be good etc.



however it also contains passages saying its ok to murder unbeleavers, rape and subjegate women, commit acts of genocite, and its ok to own and abuse slaves.



infact what ever someone wants to do good or bad you probly find a passage in the bible to support it



my point is a document that pritty much says you it doesn't matter wether your the kindist person most selfless person on earth or the most fanatical ethnic clenser, so long as you beleave in deity X and follow rituals Y you'll be let off.



isn't a very moral way of thinking and hence the bibles pritty immoral



oh and also that if people think the bible is the word of god you can't just ingore large sections of it because what its saying is horific and immoral. you have to ether find a way to deal with that or throw out the whole lot. no prizes for guesseing what i decided to do wink
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faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
That is why I said it is a progression, it is vengeful and strict seeming God at the beginning and then at the end we have a Hippy of the truest sense. But I would also like to say love is not always saying yes. If our parents did that, we would not grow up to be healthy adults. Love is considering what is best for us.

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


UCOFSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales


Posted:
Blessed are the Cheesemakers?
confused

Why should the Greek inherit the Earth?
umm

"Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes they go the house?"
eek

ubbangel

robnunchucksBRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk


Posted:
Blessed are the Cheesemakers? confused



well of course its not ment to be taken litteraly it refers to any manufacture of dairy products biggrin



If our parents did that, we would not grow up to be healthy adults. Love is considering what is best for us.



murdering unbeleavers, the abuse and subjgations of women, genocide and slavery are whats best for us! confused this god fellow sounds like a pritty shitty parent i know i wouldn't wanta be raised by him think what utterbastard i would have turned out as.



would have though child services would have had him by now luckly for him hes invisable smile
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faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
*sigh and wanders away*

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Everybody looking for a different reason to either

mad2 hate the parent or love the parent... ubblove

God's busy, as much as you are at times when ppl need you most...

The Bible - as any other religious script - is a book. It has been written by other men than Mose, or Jesus. It has been written by men. It has been compiled long after these men were dead. What you find there is the interpretation of the original philosophy - according to the time and circumstances the writer was living under.

If you look into Hinduism, it is similar. You find stories about murder, slaughter, betrayal... Shiva is not a kind god... hence he gets worshipped. Krishna had his part too, allegedly the first and highest god, Brahma, was lying.

You find this in almost every religion.

If you get angry about god, it says more about your self, than about "it"... Once you get tired of being angry and start to listen to what is (in) there for you, you get one step further.

All -isms and cults are dealing with the same bait: enlightenment, eternal bliss, material goodies, love, sex, power...

All philosophers IMO initially wanted something different: liberation.

So you can yell and scream and be angry, but who really cares about this - except maybe for your child, who is looking at you, confused... wink ubbidea ???

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


robnunchucksBRONZE Member
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Location: manchester uk


Posted:
lol why would i be angry at yahveh? its like you been angry at thor or zeus?



and what do you meen god is busy? whats he busy doing? also can a been with infinate power actualy be busy?



also yes i would agree most religions seem to contain murder slaughter and betrayal its not a phemnominon unique to christianity.



my beef with religion is the need to see some particular book as litteraly and unquestionably true instead of treating as you would moby dick, king lear or the tails of gilgamesh. if you want to take morals from holy books you can in the same way you can take morals from romeo and juliet but you shouldn't take a single book as absolute unquestionable truth. espehaly given that these holy books have a habit of been written by men looking to concolidate and/or increase there power.



e.g. scientologys dianetics was writen by a mentaly unstable scientfiction writer who and i quote said "the best way to make a million dollars is to start a religion"



e.g. the book of morman writen by a man who had been convcted twice for fraud relateing to trying to sell fake religious artifacts and books to people.



e.g. the old testement was writen (well compiled) by a king in the middle east who wanted to replace the multipul religions in his kingdome with one religion defined by him



all of the gods in these storys are littery charictor same as super man or neo. they are ment to be interpreted not take literaly infact there is as much evidence for super man as there is for any of the gods past or present.



finaly im not yelling im not screaming im not angry and i dont have any kids wink



if anything what i have is concern that people seem to adopt a reasoned and sceptical attitude to the 100,000s of gods past or pressent and can clearly see there just littery creations however when it comes to the religion they were raised in they suddenly all reason and sceptisims are jetisoned into the sun! it worrys me that something can so effectily criple peoples critical reasoning the skill which protects us from been lied to and manipulated by others and is also the only method we have of effectively determining truth.



in short i think religion leaves people open to be manipulated case in point scientology



which brings us nicely back on topic biggrin
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StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
robnunchucks, that "and what do you mean god is busy? whats he busy doing? also can a been with infinate power actually be busy?" Reminds me of a joke wink



The joke:



So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.



So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"



To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"



So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.



"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"



An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"



"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."



So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"



"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"



ubblolubblolubblol

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
ubblol Yupp and he's not asking us to live in a boat or a helicopter from that particular day on... But we may use it for the time being.

Therefore - in regards of scientology or any other cult/ religion - I'd say: if you feel you must, look into it and take what's yours. If you get swallowed up, don't blame anybody else and don't blame "god"...

wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


tim_marstonaddict
614 posts

Posted:
NICE JOKE,
i got conned into a scientolgoy office once in brisbane,they were advertising free IQ tests and i wanted to see how clever i was
so i went in,
as soon as i got in side i clocked the scientology books everrywhere but their sleazy sales techniques had me feeling if i left i would be rude so i stayed and let them try and convert me.
i was ushered into a very cool,cinema and watched a film about L.ron hubbard,then i did a personality and an IQ test again using cheap sales techniques to keep me in there they put all their efforts into converting me,
at one point i told the lady i wanted to leave,she ignored me and carried on.i told her she was being very rude and also that she was freaking me out cos her eyes looked dead and brainwashed and she kept staring at me with them,i reckon she had done a course in NLP,lol.
She quickly produced a book which had a nice chapter entitled"WHY SCIENTOLOGLY ISNT BRAINWASAHING"!!!!
At thisa point i realised i had to go cos the chick was mental.as i got up to leave all the previously friendly people in the office turned very cold and i got lots of disrespectful head shakes as i walked out the place..
im an open minded guy and try hard not to judge,but those people treated me with no respect at all,they tried using cheap sleazy sales techniques and bullying to convert me to what certainly appeared to me to be a sordid money making cult..
i went bak to reading my favouritwe holy book
conversatrions with god which i reckon is the most balanced theory of god ive come accrross

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