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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Well, a couple of hours ago the BBC aired a Panorama documentary on Scientology and frankly... whoa.

In ways it was a follow up from one they did in the 80s or 90s. Scientology had a bad rap over its use of "Fair Game" ie harassment of those that dare criticise them, and this was a look into whether they still deserved this reputation.

My God.

The answer is a very definite HELL-YES. The reporter, John Sweeney, loses his rag at one point - this was filmed by the Scientologists and dumped all over YouTube and sent to various MPs and people in the BBC to discredit him before the full documentary aired. He was followed/stalked, harassed, intimidated. Not mentioned in film was the fact that PIs even turned up to his wedding.

Yes, John Sweeney is somewhat of an asshat and describes his style as: "there are three rules in journalism. First, find a crocodile. Two, poke it in the eye with a stick. Three, stand back and report what happens next. If it's a sodden log you'll be quite safe. If it's a crocodile you've got a story."

But still...

You can find the film on the Panorama website here. Please watch it, it's an eye opener.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Spanner, I met some ex-Scientologists when I was working as a therapist in London (one of my 'specialities' was bereavement, which led into working with people who were leaving cults or other binding organisations) Your voice is one of the most interesting to me in this thread, because you have been there. I can appreciate it might be hard for you to put your experience up somewhere like this where it runs the risk of being trivialised. But I would really be interested in knowing some of what you have been through. And I can recommend writing as a way of coming to terms with it. If you ever feel like writing, I would be happy to read. smile

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Spanner




I doubt you're completely arguing against psychiatry and I'm not exactly defending it completely myself.
I'm just surprised that anyone would go as far as to defend Scientology at all to argue against anything, which is why I've made the assumption, or rather the hope, that most/all people in this thread so far are basing their opinions on second hand evidence of Scientology, as I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone with direct experience of it, bar Scientologists themselves, would go to those lengths.



I'm not so much defending scientology, as defending the right of scientologists to be heavily critical of psychiatry.

Personally I think very little of psychiatry, for various reasons.

I think that, despite being well-respected, it's very prone to quackery.

I'm currently running juggling workshops for a local school- i was warned that a particualrly disruptive (autistic) pupil may be in attendance.

On the day he was far from disruptive, more 'zombie-like'.

His behaviour was now being controlled chemically- he was completely doped up.

In the UK, doping children with ADD symptoms is rife- I've seen a lot of it myself and it disgusts me that young children are 'treated' in this way.

=================

Here's a link the the wiki page on lobotomy-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

I think most of us are vaguely aware of this once-common but now discredited procedure.

It was while watching a horror film that i saw a reference as to how the procedure was actually carried out (I'd previously thought it was a surgical procedure) and, thinking that there was no way that could be accurate, i did some research.

Incredibly, it was true, the procedure was carried out by driving a 'ice-pick' like instrument through the eye socket, then 'dicing' the frontal lobe of the brain by moving the implement back and forth- then removing the instrument leaving severe bruising, but no lasting physical harm, to the eyes.

this left the patient less 'disruptive', for obvious reasons.

 Written by:


This technique could be performed in a doctor's office rather than in an operating room, and required only a few minutes to perform. Freeman advocated this procedure for patients with even fairly mild symptoms. He personally performed the operation on thousands of people and promoted the idea of lobotomy as a casual procedure, claiming it would one day be as common as dental work.[1]



 Written by:


Lobotomy was most prevalent in the United States, with approximately 40,000 persons lobotomized, followed by Great Britain with approximately 17,000 and the three Scandinavian countries with a combined figure of approximately 9,300.




 Written by:


Rosemary Kennedy, sister of President John F. Kennedy, was given a lobotomy when her father complained to doctors about the 23-year-old’s moodiness and growing interest in men. The procedure was personally performed by Dr. Freeman. Instead of producing the desired result, however, the lobotomy reduced Rosemary to an infantile mentality that left her incontinent and staring blankly at walls for hours. Her verbal skills were reduced to unintelligible babble. To avoid political scandal, the nature of Rosemary's affliction was hidden by her father for years, described to the public as the result of mental retardation. Her sister, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, founded the Special Olympics in her honor in 1968.




that's 40.000 victims of this horrific procedure in the US alone whose lives where wrecked by the psychiatric profession.

I don't feel that I need a qualification in psychiatry to know that driving a ice-pick into someones brain via the eye socket, then dicing the brain tissue, is wrong.

Same goes for controlling the behaviour of 9 year old children with chemical doping.

That's just two examples of maltreatment at the hands of the psychiatric 'profession', so, yes, i fully support the rights of scientologists to be critical of them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:OWD, you wrote yourself how the procedure is now discredited, so I don't really see the point of your argument.

There are many medical practises which have now been discredited, but are you going to put medicine in the same light?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Lobotomy is discredited, doping of children isn't- like I said, it's very common in UK schools.



Additionally, wheareas many medical procedures do get discredited, at the time there was generally some indication that they may be useful- it's intuitively obvious in a common sense way, that driving a pick through the eye socket to dice up the frontal lobe brain tissue, is no way to 'heal' anyone.



Yet it was accepted by the psychiatric profession. along with many other outrageously stupid ideas that have ruined many innocent lives under the guise of 'healing' their minds.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:w8t7g7x2q, psychiatry is Greek for healing of the spirit. And I dont see much healing in modern Western practices.



Most psychiatric illnesses cannot currently be cured, although recovery may occur (wiki). From what I can see, modern western psychiatry is still living in the dark ages when it comes to understanding the mind. I would suggest that most (not all) people would get more out taking a new age self development course rather than seeing a Western practitioner. I think there is a wider choice than Electro Convulsive Therapy and drugs. Or the Churchs option - exorcism.



Spanner, the point for me is that all religions are dodgey. I was brought up a Roman Catholic, and still feel I was somewhat brainwashed by them. I think your description of scientology as pyramid selling scheme which still depends on identifying and exploiting weaknesses of the vunerable from their first contact could be used for any religion.



To answer your question, why would anyone go as far as to defend scientology? I would suggest that scientology, like many of the new religious movements, is based on Buddhist/Hindu self-development philosophies that go back to antiquity. And its that Eastern philosophies that I support, rather than scientology itself.



Faith, for information on Opus Dei. I dont necessarily agree with these people, but I was making a point that most religions have their secrets. There are also unanswered questions about the roles that Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:i caught the late edition of this program last night and my god, those nutters don't give up do they!

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by : newgabe



Spanner, I met some ex-Scientologists when I was working as a therapist in London (one of my 'specialities' was bereavement, which led into working with people who were leaving cults or other binding organisations) Your voice is one of the most interesting to me in this thread, because you have been there. I can appreciate it might be hard for you to put your experience up somewhere like this where it runs the risk of being trivialised. But I would really be interested in knowing some of what you have been through. And I can recommend writing as a way of coming to terms with it. If you ever feel like writing, I would be happy to read. smile





Thanks Gabe: I'd been thinking of doing this for some thing and I am concerned it runs the risk of being trivialised, but having given it some thought, if an account made at least one person think twice twice before joining Scientology, it would be worth it, so...



(Post deleted and details moved to another forum, will PM on request to those I know smile )



 Written by : OWD



I'm currently running juggling workshops for a local school- i was warned that a particualrly disruptive (autistic) pupil may be in attendance.



On the day he was far from disruptive, more 'zombie-like'.



His behaviour was now being controlled chemically- he was completely doped up.



In the UK, doping children with ADD symptoms is rife- I've seen a lot of it myself and it disgusts me that young children are 'treated' in this way.







Of course and I hope it's at least some consolation to you to know that my own son, who is autistic, is not doped up, no-one has ever suggested that he should be, I would never give permission for him to be and I would fight anyone who attempted to make this so.



 Written by :

I'm not so much defending scientology, as defending the right of scientologists to be heavily critical of psychiatry.







I'd defend the right of anyone to criticize psychiatry, but I cannot defend the alternative methods which Scientology prefers, particularly regarding diagnosis and treatment of autistic children which if you're unaware of, you should read up on - I'd hope you'd be as disgusted that children are "treated" that way.



 Written by :



I think that, despite being well-respected, it's very prone to quackery.







A lot of things are prone to quackery: alternative medicine is a particularly good example of this (and again, if you don't think that has a lot to do with Scientology, you should read on).

There is again a difference between something being prone to quackery and something simply being quackery.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:hug's Ana...

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:smile meditate cool biggrin

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I guess part of what I'm saying is that pretty much every accusation made against scientology applies to the victims of psychiatry as well.



Psychiatry also targets the vulnerable (the depressed, the mentally ill).



Just as you were referred to the group by an 'agent of scientology' who was a respected professional (a dentist), psychiatry has it's own 'agents'- respected (and well meaning) GP's who refer the vulnerable- indeed often helping to soften them up by (in the UK), as virtually a matter of procedure, prescribed anti-depressent medication at the first sign of depression.



I'm not defending the methods of scientology- quite possibly the reason they despise psychiatry is cos, at heart, the two are pretty similar- both quack systems that target the vuinerable.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Thanks for that Spanner clap

I think my perceived 'Complacency' is more down to trying to rise above being actively critical of someone else's belief system without knowing all the facts even if they won't afford me the same luxury. And also to stay on topic to avoid turning this thread into an indictment of Scientology instead of focusing on the Panorama documentary itself.

I can imagine how scary it is to be followed home, not only by one person but to have an organisation behind them.

The fact that I am even slightly wary of posting my opinions on this site lest it be monitored speaks volumes about the stance I SHOULD be taking.

Another problem I have is the world SELF-help, their stance seems to focus on ME! ME! ME! Rather than providing genuine strength to make themselves and the world around them a better place. The fact that it's most high-profile members consist of movie stars - egotistical people who make a living by lying, pretending to be someone they're not should be warning enough.


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Post deleted by 87wt2gxq7

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:In 1985, I'd just walked out of one of those "special" cafes in Amsterdam, and was approached by a rather nice looking woman who asked me if I'd like to participate in a 10 minute survey. All I had to do was come up to this room, fill out a multiple choice questionnaire, and that would be it....Seemed simple enough.

I got up there, sat down and was handed this massive multiple choice "booklet" that was asking all sorts of personal information that I really didn't feel like discussing with strangers at that moment in time but decided to go with the flow anyway and started reading and answering. About a third of the way through I decided that this was taking way too long, and I had more interesting things to do with my time, so I just randomly ticked boxes on the remaining pages thinking I'd just get this over with and be on my way.

WRONG

The "surveyors" asked me to wait a moment while they "reviewed" my "answers" and came back with a graph of my personality which they wished to discuss with me. First they focused on the "high points" of my personality,,,great..I thought..too bad I made up most of the answers...can I go now ? Then they started in on the "low" points.

Even though I'd just randomly ticked boxes, they were right. Yes, I had to answer truthfully, I do act that way sometimes ( in retrospect...they were telling me that I was acting out of self interest...big whoop...so does most of the world ) and if I bought this series of books that they had piled on the table, I'd be well on the way to "fixing" my personality and character "flaws"

No thanks i said,,I'm currently touring Europe on a bicycle, and I don't want to carry a bunch of heavy books as I'm cycling UP the alps, plus I wasn't interested in parting with that kind of money for literature when I had more important needs , like food and beer.

These guys ( there were three of them now,,that nice woman who "invited" me up had disappeared ) and they weren't interested in taking no for an answer.,,,Now I'd never heard of Scientology, I had no idea what dianetics was all about, I just figured these guys were booksellers and when i decided I'd had enough and got up to leave, one of the guys beat me to, and stood in front of the door.

It was then that I decided that I'd have to fight, and it was only (IMO) through threats of physical violence on my part that the guy stepped away from the door.

Usually, I'm a pretty tolerant guy when it comes to religious beliefs, even if I do class those beliefs as a bunch of bullshit...but hey..if it works for you.....But this type of coercive recruitment has jaded me against Scientologists for life..


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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
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Posted:eek

Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


I'm not defending the methods of scientology- quite possibly the reason they despise psychiatry is cos, at heart, the two are pretty similar- both quack systems that target the vuinerable.



I have a fair amount of evidence that modern psychiatric therapy can make a huge difference in the quality of life of patients suffering from bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, schizophrenia, psycosis phobias, and ADHD. It's not just what I've seen, it's very well-designed studies that prove that these therapies work.

Scientology has no such evidence behind it.

Quite simply, OWD, the brain is an organ. It is the most complex organ in the body. 60% of genes in the human genome are expressed solely in the brain and spinal cord. That's a heck of a lot that can go wrong.

All opinions are irrelevant without facts to back them up. Including yours.

It's attitudes like yours that make people delay getting proper medical care until they wind up in the ER with a paracetamol overdose because they didn't "believe in" psychiatry.

Psychiatrists cannot force a patient to undergo therapy without proper legal procedure. Consent by the patient is otherwise mandatory. Scientology frequently forces people into rituals and procedures without any consent of any sort.

Psychiatrists are bound by the Hippocratic oath. Scientologists have no such oath.

Psychiatrists don't recruit people, people go to them.

I'm not saying that psychiatry is perfect. Nothing's perfect. Psychiatrists are humans and they make mistakes, they put their own interests before the patient's, and sometimes allow their own emotions towards the patient (counter-transference) to interfere with their medical decisions.

But they are not generally malevolent, they are not out to kidnap people and tear them from their families, and they don't believe in their own superiority over humanity as a basic tenet of their religion.

There are a lot of differences, Dave, and I find it horribly offensive that you would equate a group of physicians to a group of money-grubbing religious fanatics.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
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Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning





It's attitudes like yours that make people delay getting proper medical care until they wind up in the ER with a paracetamol overdose because they didn't "believe in" psychiatry.







In some cases, that is a good thing and basically saves them from an overdose.



 Written by: Doc Lightning







Psychiatrists cannot force a patient to undergo therapy without proper legal procedure. Consent by the patient is otherwise mandatory.





Neither can scientology.



 Written by: Doc Lightning





Psychiatrists are bound by the Hippocratic oath. Scientologists have no such oath.



Psychiatrists don't recruit people, people go to them.









They get referred by people they're brought up to have complete trust in.





 Written by: Doc Lightning





There are a lot of differences, Dave, and I find it horribly offensive that you would equate a group of physicians to a group of money-grubbing religious fanatics.





It's not the first time you've been offended by a POV of mine, i'm sure it won't be the last either smile



I'm glad you see the success stories of the psychiatric profession and the successes of the medical profession in general- as I've pointed out on other threads, I've seen the failures, including family members butchered by those systems- so it's not surprising we have different perspectives.



It's only 5 months since my father spent his last weeks having his suffering made worse by our totally inept NHS admin system which made a mistake on pretty much every visit to the hospital, including missing medicars, medicars sent to the wrong address, waiting in a lobby for an hour cos a doctors writing was so illegible than a chemist couldn't read it etc, etc, etc.



Then, on what was to be his last day on this earth, was mainly spent in a corridoor cos of lack of bed space.



I'm glad your health system is so much better than ours and that it has a decent admin system where mistakes are the exception rather than the norm.



Over here it's different, so you'll have to excuse the fact that I don't have much respect for it.



Would you comment on the lobotomy stuff I posted about, or does the fact that it happened in the past make it irrelevant?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


Would you comment on the lobotomy stuff I posted about, or does the fact that it happened in the past make it irrelevant?



Lobotomies have not been performed for several decades. No living physician, to my knowlege, has ever seen one or performed one. To my knowledge, there is no living patient who has had a lobotomy for psychiatric reasons (lobectomies are still done in cases of refractory epilepsy, and with huge success).

So yeah, it's pretty irrelevant.

I might just as well bring up King James and his treatment of the American Colonists as a reason why England is a bad country.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
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Posted:I guess we'll just have to disagree on the relevance then, cos I think the fact that the US and UK psyciatric professions lobotomised 57,000 people between them, several decades ago, is relevant.



It's far from the only atrocity committed by the psychiatric profession- I'm sure I don't need to remind you why the term '"hysterectomy" sounds so much like hysteria? (cos psyciatrists felt that 'hysterical' behaviour in women- ie anything not conforming to the norm, could be 'cured' by removal of parts or all of their reproductive organs.



It may be history, but I feel those precedents go some way to explaining current abuses (of which there are many well documented instances).



Especially in the context of the UK psyciatric profession, here and now, routinely treating 'disruptive' school children of ages as low as 8, with drugs that make their behaviour 'acceptable' i.e. doping them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for sharing Spanner. Im really surprised that a registered Dentist practice could get away with that. It really undermines the health system.

Ok a few things, scientology is classified as a religion, not a self-development or new age education institute. So we really need to compare apples with apples. Confusion could arise because most western religions only offer a set of rules to follow to reach heaven, and if you dont follow those rules then you go to hell. Which is a form of manipulation in its self.

Lightning, Im not convinced that modern psychiatric therapy has really come to terms with understanding the human brain. Im sure there are some well-designed, drug company sponsored, studies that prove that giving kids Dex amphetamine (speed) and adults anti depressants drugs like prozac work in the short term. But in the long term, you are likely to end up with a nation of drug dependents. Im not sure about lobotomy, but they still use ECT.

A good start would be if psychiatrists took of their white coats of superiority and looked at some of the eastern practices that go back to antiquity. Fortunately, some have.

Mindfulness, largely associated with Buddhism, the practice of mindfulness is also advocated by such people as medical researcher and author Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn who developed the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) program. MBSR is a form of complementary medicine offered in over 200 U.S. hospitals and is currently the focus of a number of research studies funded by The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

Health applications and clinical studies of meditation In the recent years there has been a growing interest within the medical community to study the physiological effects of meditation. Many concepts of meditation have been applied to clinical settings in order to measure its effect on somatic motor function as well as cardiovascular and respiratory function. Also the hermeneutic and phenomenological aspects of meditation are areas of growing interest. Meditation has entered the mainstream of health care as a method of stress and pain reduction.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


It's far from the only atrocity committed by the psychiatric profession- I'm sure I don't need to remind you why the term '"hysterectomy" sounds so much like hysteria? (cos psyciatrists felt that 'hysterical' behaviour in women- ie anything not conforming to the norm, could be 'cured' by removal of parts or all of their reproductive organs.



That would be the ancient Greeks, actually.

But that's OK, Dave. I personally accept responsibility for their mis-deeds, as well.

All for you. rolleyes


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:the reason scientology dislikes psycahiatry is not because of any scientific or reasoned disagreement with there methods but simply because there founder L Ron was repeately exposed as a con artist and a fraud by phycologists as a result he demonised them in his religion as a form of revenge



the best way to understand sicentology is to understand the founder L ron. heres a link to an intervew with l rons son who is now in hidding for leaveing the church.



http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm



facinateing intervew that explains the mind set of the founder once you understand that its pritty easy to understand the nature of the orginizastion he created

EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1180108473)


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Mr_Joe
Mr_Joe

Part-time genius

Member Since: 27th Aug 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


They get referred by people they're brought up to have complete trust in.





The difference being that doctors need to undergo years of study at commonly recognised and verified sources before they're allowed to be called doctors and scientologist just need to sign a form.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
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Posted:Actually it takes a lot of time commitment and financial commitment to become a scientologist who can 'treat' the public.

(I'm not approving of scientology treatments there, simply pointing out that they have to undergo a lot of training in the system).

As for doctors (GP's)- they may spend years in training, but that does not give them in depth understanding of mental health issues- their training is of the general variety, not specialised.

My concern is that, in the UK, prescribing of anti-depressents seems to be used routinely as a diagnostic tool (take this and let's see what happens to your mental state).

Meaning that often, those releuctant to do so (take pills), are effectively hindered, or even barred, from the counselling that they are really after.

Maybe not the doctors fault- they operate within the NHS with its time restraints, they simply do not have the time available to treat all patients with the care they require.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


Especially in the context of the UK psyciatric profession, here and now, routinely treating 'disruptive' school children of ages as low as 8, with drugs that make their behaviour 'acceptable' i.e. doping them.



Ever read my story about the psychotic 5-year-old?

I would imagine that antipsychotics would be better and healthier for him than institutionalization.

They used to treat these kids with institutionalization, with repeated punishments, with expulsion, and other such methods. The results were horrible.

There are people on these boards who have benefited greatly from just such therapies. And they include me.

But that's OK, because I guess I'm just doped up. So who should listen to me?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, OWD, you're now just arguing for the heck of it.

So I'm not taking the bait. bye


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:It's up to you if you want to engage in discussion- I'm not 'arguing for the heck of it' I'm posting my opinion based on my experiences.

I've never denied that some may benefit from psychiatric pharmacuticals.

 Written by:


They used to treat these kids with institutionalization, with repeated punishments, with expulsion, and other such methods. The results were horrible.




I know- I did myself mention the lobotomy outrages, many of which were inflicted on minors.

Things were bound to improve, if only cos they couldn't really get any worse.

None of which justifies the kind of 'doping' of minors we're seeing in ever increasing numbers in UK schools.

That's not to critisise all use of psychiatric pharmacuticals.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Post deleted by 87wt2gxq7

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I noticed that many of the actual stated critisisms against scientology also applied equally to medical psychiatry.

It's happened before on HOP where someone has critisised some alternative/new age health system with points that apply equally to western medicine, or indeed, any imaginable health system (e.g. x had a new-age treatment and died- that's not a valid critisism of a new-age health system cos many have conventional treatment and also die).

So, I'm not saying scientology=good, (personally I wouldn't go near it with a bargepole smile

Essentially what happened is, someone critisised scientology on a point which applied equally to psychiatry- i suggested that the worth of any mental health system is, IMO, in the results it produces and wondered if scientologies results were as bad, or better, than psychiatries results.

I also pointed out some of the many past, and present, abuses that the psyciatric profession has committed.

Whereupon our resident spokesperson for modern medicine, took offence and we got into a discussion on it.

Apparently that discussion is now ended, which is fine with me.

I'm also happy to let this thread lie, if everyone esle is.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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robnunchucks
robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk
Member Since: 14th Jul 2004
Total posts: 363
Posted:"and wondered if scientologies results were as bad, or better, than psychiatries results."

There much much worse phychiatrists for example wouldn't use sesions to gleam personal and/or embaresing information from people so that it can later be used to blackmail that indidviual into line should they question the practises of phychiatrists or should they try and stop comeing to sesions nor would they resort to physical threats and intimidation.

at least they would be striped of there licence and properly face jail time if they did such a thing

this however is standard practise for scienotology

the thing to understand is scientology isn't trying to provide a realistic alternitive to phyciatry they are simply useing that as a cover so they can put them selfs into that position of power without any of the safty checks lisenceing hypocratic oath etc.

its not an argument about methods but motivation phyciatrists genuanily want to help even if they make mistakes or are misguided at time scientology is simply about trying to control people who ultimately can be disgarded if they are no longer usefull to the church


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: robnunchucks



its not an argument about methods but motivation phyciatrists genuanily want to help even if they make mistakes or are misguided at time scientology is simply about trying to control people who ultimately can be disgarded if they are no longer usefull to the church



To me, it's more about results than motivation.

Take the psychiatric lobotomy atrocity mentioned earlier- 57,000 UK and US patients having a 'pick' inserted into their brains via the eye socket, to dice their frontal lobes.

The doctors who did that, presumably, had good intentions- that doesn't stop it being an atrocity.

Those doctors routinely prescribing innapropriate drugs to under-age schoolchildren, presumably, also have good intentions.

And I think you'll find that, whatever the consequences of scientologists actions, most of them are also acting with good intentions.

Most of the harm committed in this world is not done with evil intent, but with good intent by people who have the arrogant conviction that they are right.

e.g. scientologists and psychiatrists- which of the two produces/has produced the most harm is, as far as I can see, still awaiting determination.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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