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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Written by: Lurch
I'm not sure why you guys are so adamant in siting his work, if you have some other source of stats I'd love to see it, but until you address the flaws in Kellermann's "research" it's not going to hold much weight with me. I have serious doubts as to the legitimacy of his work, so how about another source instead of referencing the same biased stuff over and over without countering any of my points?
Written by: Lurch
Basically all that Kellermann's research shows is that guns in the hands of people with criminal records, drug use, and histories of violence are more likely to be involved in a domestic homicide.
Written by: Lurch
Kelck, who I referred to earlier had this to say about Kellermann
Written by: Kelck
Most conspicuously, there is not a scrap of evidence in this dataset indicating whether the guns used to kill homicide victims were guns kept in the victim's home, even though K's whole point was that keeping a gun in one's home raises one's risk of becoming a homicide victim.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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You guys aren't listening to what I'm trying to say at all. Kellermann's research is seriously flawed, even his follow up research.
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Basically all that Kellermann's research shows is that guns in the hands of people with criminal records, drug use, and histories of violence are more likely to be involved in a domestic homicide.
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He still has not made his original dataset completely available, so none of his "research" can even be verified.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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What it basically comes down to is that you don't want to believe Kellermann's findings, which basically show that your personal choices have put yourself and your family at risk.
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You're ignoring how Kellermann controled for all those factors, and showed that when all these factors were taken into consideration, gun ownership increased the risk of death in the house.
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This is, in fact, sheer idiocy. Who gives a monkey which gun they were shot with? It's statistically irrelevent to the question of whether gun ownership makes one more likely to be a homocide victim, and Kelck ought to know that. For a statician to state something like this implies they are either an idiot or not interested in the truth
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Sorry Lurch, if you knew anything about research, and the rigors of getting a scientific paper published, in a reputable journal you wouldn’t make such statements (ed).
Kellermann was a high level researcher. If you read the Wikipedia article on him, you will see links to his original articles. His research was published in “peer” reviewed journals like the New England Journal of Medicine. You don’t get published if there is any doubt about the quality of research. He responded to early criticisms by doing further research. As he should.
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Kellermann addressed this in his 1993 paper, as previously stated. That’s where the 2.7 times increase in the risk of homicide if you keep firearms in the home came from.
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Written by: AP
Then he chained the doors of Norris Hall, stormed several classrooms and unloaded more than 170 rounds over nine long minutes. Students — some wounded, some not — cowered, played dead and listened in horror as 30 of their classmates and teachers died.
Written by: Faithinfire
(...)the gun control debate (...) is quickly going nowhere new but continuing in a repetitive cycle imo...
Written by: Stone
There was another mass shooting today in Kansas, which again questions the sanity of a country caught up in it’s own pro gun culture
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Written by: LurchWritten by: Jeff
This is, in fact, sheer idiocy. Who gives a monkey which gun they were shot with? It's statistically irrelevent to the question of whether gun ownership makes one more likely to be a homocide victim, and Kelck ought to know that. For a statician to state something like this implies they are either an idiot or not interested in the truth
That is most certainly not irrelevant. They very article you're relying on is saying that keeping a gun in your house makes you 2.7 times more likely to be killed. But he doesn't define if the "gun" that was "in the house" was the home owners, or brought there by the murderer.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: pounce
jeff....Quite honestly, I don't even read most of your posts anymore because to me, they come across and arrogant and offensive. I agree with faith 100% that you seem to come in here to "win" and believe your opinions are actually fact, when in fact, they aren't. You bring up some good points, and I think I would be much more willing to listen to them if you were such a prick about how you present them. You argue about Lurch not addressing your points but just "arguing from personal incredulity" but then you tell him "What it basically comes down to is that you don't want to believe Kellermann's findings, which basically show that your personal choices have put yourself and your family at risk." I believe they call that an ad hominem attack. I've read through the different articles and statistics, and I think Lurch has made a very valid point.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Richmond, Va. - The governor on Monday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to buy weapons despite a court ruling that he was a threat and needed psychiatric counseling.
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Kellermann states that as an emergency room doctor, he noted that the number of gunowners injured by their own gun or that of a family member seemed to greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true.
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Too many things can go wrong when you own a gun.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: FireTom
We have one side of the argument, who says EVERY "law abiding" citizen should be able to legally own a gun (for self defense) and the other side that says otherwise...I can't see any (Lurch, Pele and yourself - who seem to argue pro-gun) really getting off their argument and taking the counter-guns serious in their effort. The concessions so far came from the other (rather pacifist) side...
...Personally I'm not open for discussion about this anymore, because I feel myself put in a corner and all counter gun arguments get disregarded/ ignored/ or claimed to be wrong!
As a matter of fact, I can't see that any of you ever left that "fish bowl" you're talking about... [sic]
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: Pounce
we would GLADLY give up our guns and agreed that it would be a wonderful Utopia if no one had them and we didn't need them
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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where SEVERAL of us stated we would GLADLY give up our guns and agreed that it would be a wonderful Utopia if no one had them and we didn't need them.
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Self-Defense. The Great Myth of America’s Gun Industry
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Guns have long been seen as tools of self-defense in the United States. But, contrary to gun industry hype, unintended consequences often happen when people buy guns for self-defense. Studies by public health professionals have repeatedly found that having a gun around for any reason increases the likelihood that a family member—as opposed to a criminal—will be inured or killed with a gun. A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
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Other studies have looked specifically at the more narrow question of keeping guns in the home for self-defense. One, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. The Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.These and other studies have documented repeatedly the enhanced risk that comes from bringing a gun into the home.
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But how often do people use guns successfully to protect themselves from criminal acts? Does it justify the deaths and damage that comes with guns? Apparently not. Most studies have found that guns play a relatively minor role in preventing crime but a major role in facilitating it.
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For example, the US Department of Justice study found that, on the average, between 1987 and 1992 only one percent of actual or attempted victims of violent crime, or about 2,000 people, attempted to defend themselves with a firearm. On the other hand, criminals armed with handguns committed a record 931,000 violent crimes in 1992. Data from the FBI’s Crime in the United States reveals that for every time in 1998 that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 50 people lost their lives in handgun homicides lone.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Really no offense meant, but I was asking FIRSTHAND experiences and the only one coming up with one here is Faith, who (can't find that post right now) was able to get out of most trouble without a gun. A gun gives you (more) self esteem, doesn't it? It makes you FEEL safe and it is to scare off others who don't have a gun, or are not determined (enough) to fight. The stories, even Faith came up with, make me even MORE determined in saying: BAN (HAND)GUNS!
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You dismiss all (scientific) evidence and rational..
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- some people use guns for hunting (rifles, not handguns)
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"Every thousand mile road starts with the first step"
No - we don't live in Utopia, but we certainly will NEVER get there with the kind of attitude I see displayed by 'proguns' here.
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I say: YOU DO NOT NEED A GUN to defend your own or the life of your beloved ones. As Lurch himself put it so nicely in another thread:
"A knife is much more dangerous than a gun." Personally I do carry a knife most of the time and guess what? I find it very useful for other things, barely (have to) worry about it, it doesn't give me the creeps and the like.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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If anything the weight on your hip is a constant reminder of the responsibility you carry around with you.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Lurch
What attitude is that? That we don't want to make ourselves defenseless against criminals? Thats a bit of backward logic there. The first step is to remove the weapons from criminals, not from the good people.
Written by: LurchWritten by:
"A knife is much more dangerous than a gun." Personally I do carry a knife most of the time and guess what? I find it very useful for other things, barely (have to) worry about it, it doesn't give me the creeps and the like.
Normally you don't, on the off chance you do, a knife isn't going to cut it. There are drawbacks to both weapons, You have to be in reach of the criminal in order to attack with a knife for one thing. Distance is your friend. I carry a knife as well, but I would (almost) always prefer a gun for self defense.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: Stout
OWD..as touching as your story was, I have a hard time digesting the idea that suicides can be blamed on the availability of guns. On the surface, eating a gun barrel may seem like the easiest way of ending one's life, however there are other methods of suicide that take the same fraction of a second, impulse, ( if you will ) decision to do the deed. Couldn't someone find themselves in the same situation sitting on a high building as sitting alone in a room with a gun where it only takes an instant to "act" ?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: onewheeldave
Guns however, seem a lot more definite- no-one survives a bullet through the brain, you're quite literally destroying the hardware that the mind runs on- it's also seen as quick- no long drawn out fall etc.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
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But Lurch, why would anyone want to hunt with a handgun? Really?
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To insist on removing guns from criminals first simply means that addressing the issues of problematic non-criminals easy access to guns doesn't ever happen.
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It's worth mentioning that, when it comes to guns vs. knives, perhaps the main reason guns are much more appealing is that defending yourself with a knife is a lot more scary.
With a gun you, ideally, stay distant- it's perhaps the most impersonal way of killing.
Of course, at the end of the day, guns wounds are as horrific as knife wounds.
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A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman holding a smoking gun with a dead rapist at her feet
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Jeff you raised a very good point about law abiding citizens acting either out of anger or drunkenness ( and I might add stupidity and passion ) leading to gun "accidents" which is a very good argument in favour of gun control. As we all know, not all rational people act rationally all the time.
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Written by: LurchWritten by:
To insist on removing guns from criminals first simply means that addressing the issues of problematic non-criminals easy access to guns doesn't ever happen.
You wouldn't stop drunk driving by targetting the cars. Target the drunks. Target the criminals.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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What attitude is that? That we don't want to make ourselves defenseless against criminals? Thats a bit of backward logic there. The first step is to remove the weapons from criminals, not from the good people.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez 23 and Enrico Garza 26, probably believed they would easily overpower a home alone 11 year old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two story home.
It seems the two crooks never learned two things, they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.
Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buck shot from the 11 year olds knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.
It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim, 50 year old David Burien, was not so lucky as he died from stab wounds to the chest.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals