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Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek

Tragic Loss of Life

This [censored] really saddens me. My thoughts go out to the victims, survivors and all their families.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Why do you think that people with CCW's dwell on the negative so much though? It's not about worrying about being a victim, it's about refusing to be a victim. To me at least that is a very positive statement.

People who have not considered their actions, nor prepared themselves for a negative situation are destined to be hurt, emotionally, physically, or both. To prepare yourself, and give yourself a POSITIVE outlook on life and everything it entails is a good thing, but to ignore the negative completely is foolhardy.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:copycatting like I said is going to be a problem
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18203613/


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted: Written by: biggins


ps: the fact that you feel the need to carry a gun in your line of work makes me very sad frown



You're very right. But it's for those reasons alone that I refuse to stop what I'm doing. Despite the fact that many think it naive, I truly believe that I can change the world, even if it's only in a small way.

 Written by: onewheeldave


I wouldn't want to put down well-trained and responsible carriers- given the state of the US and its gun situation I'm not surprised people feel the need to be armed.

However, it seems in this thread there's two seperate issues- the one above concerning resonsible and heavily trained carriers- then the fact that totally unsuitable people can wander into the local gun shop, tick a box to 'prove' they're not mentally ill and come out with a gun.

In other countries, the default legal position for guns is either ultra-controlled or totally banned, so they can stay on top of the problem easier than could be the case in the US where gun freedom has always been lax.

So, in attacking the problem, I don't think that limiting concealed carry by provenly responsible and heavily trained individuals should be the first priority.

Stopping shops selling to any adult (without a record etc) who wants one should be stopped though.

Aspiring to a point where the only people who can legally have a gun undergo extensive training and are regularly assessed as still being suitable.

I also like the earlier suggestion that the age limit is raised to something like thirty- whilst not without problems, I think that suggestions like that could have a lot of merit.



Very well put, as are several points Lurch made or responded to (I won't quote it all cause it's lengthy). faithinfire brought up a good point as well in discussing the type of criminals and crimes prevalent in the US, such as those connected to drug and weapons trafficking. The USA could never be a "gun-free zone" because THE WORLD IS NOT A GUN-FREE ZONE. Drugs have been banned in the USA but they still filter in. Militaries will never give up their weapons, and there seems to always be someone who will betray their job and responsibilities and country and be willing to sell weapons to other countries. Even if we managed to destroy every single gun ever made (which would be interesting because that would have to include weaponry in museums as well), the knowledge of the technology cannot be destroyed, and there is nothing stopping someone from making more. Criminals do not abide by the rules, that's what makes them criminals! I won't go on my tirade about education and better morals and raising children right and humanity because I've said it all before. But I think we're on the right track with this type of thinking...better screening to help ensure guns don't end up in the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

(Forgive me if this was slightly disjointed. I've had a lot of interruptions while writing my reply tongue )


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i was sort of trying to say that they were people not evil creatures living under a rock...they are the parents with a new baby walking down the street with you...but anyways ubbloco
guns are not toys, and there needs to be extensive training in order to own one...
the question is how do we check on mentality. it's not hard for people to manipulate a test...I have a psych record but i was never committed...it just shows that I had seen a psychologist (the ones who can prescribe?). So, can I own a gun? Would I have to release doctors notes? Permission from my doctor? The mental health factor of this could easily become a quagmire


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Btw: Is this thread about US gun laws, or is it about the shooting itself? confused wink tongue 'xcuse




I thought it was about the shootings since there are threads about gun control already. shrug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Sorry, I didn't make myself clear (I told you I was distracted). It was something you had said about gangs and drug and weapons trafficking that sparked a thought which prompted my response.

You're right, the mental health factor could become a quagmire. And I don't know what the solution is, to be honest. What about requiring a brief mental health evaluation at various intervals? The police and armed security are required to do annual psych checks, why not every gun owner?


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Now we're getting somewhere smile IMO at least.

Faith you have been rising valid points: Criminals, mass murderers, terrorists and the like do have a history. And I reckon every one is very important for the rest of us to learn from - as in "bad example". Some of them have been family caring members and friends before they commited their crimes.

Pounce, I have to disagree with your attitude towards gun law enforcement and further restrictions. According to this we should stop adressing environmental issues, criminal prevention and (domestic) violence as a whole, rape, sexual harrassment and assault, poverty and healthcare, maybe even terrorism. All these topics will be still here in a hundred years... If I translate your words into my universe, I would suggest you have to look for a different job, as the problems you deal with might never be eradicated... We will have to learn and take actions to make this world a better place (if possible).

I do acknowledge that some ppl have heightened security requirements and if they are found to be mentally stable and responsible they may have a gun and even be allowed to carry them (concealed). I agree with you, Pounce that they would need to have themselves checked every now and then and on top of that that they should allow compulsory checks of their own security level, home and privacy to verify whether these weapons are accessible to children for example and whether these ppl are a potential threat to society.

I would love to see the topic become part of the electoral campaign for 2008.

Back to topic:

This kid has got a message and - IMHO - if we're not all learning from that, the next incident is bound to happen. Now that the background of this tragedy is surfacing, outsting ppl from classrooms or communities is not beneficial in the long run - the least to say - just because someone is "strange". It's a vicious circle, self perpetuating so to say.

Believe me when I say "I have partly been there myself" (as growing up in one of the richest communities in Germany - us being a "broken home" and close to poverty level, whilst my dad even spent 2-3 yacht vacations in the carribean/ year). I do well know about frustration and anger against the "upper class" in close contact with their children...

Maybe this guy would otherwise have become another Tom Waits, another Stephen King - who knows?

Morbid humor and phantasies themselves are not a straight indicator for a mental case and a potential mass murderer. Stalking girls and taking pics of their legs under the desk ain't either - IMO. It's proof of a troubled person who is in desperate need of counselling. Tell me guys, who of you - as a teenager - has never lured through a(n already existing) hole to the girls dressers? (just as another striking example - not that I have ever BTDT myself)

And just to drift "off" one more time from my side: It's true as it has been said: "Guns don't kill people..." But I truely believe that handing such a person a gun, or granting him free access is like pulling the trigger yourself.

And I have to disagree with you one more time, Pounce hug - it's (highly) unlikely that one will be able to manufacture a gun (suitable for mass murder) in their own home and finally: Under which reason would someone be allowed to buy more than 50 rounds of ammo at the same time/ within a certain period?)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:lol sorry, but it's painful obvious you've never done any sort of recreational shooting. 50 rounds would be a *very* short range session

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Lurch


 Written by: mcp

So er, do you have any actual facts to back up your statement?



Read what I said again, I never said it increased gun crime, but it did increase crime overall, or do you think it's just a coincidence that as soon as the general population was unarmed violent crime skyrocketted?




http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/violent-crime/

Well it didn't skyrocket actually. It's been going down since 1995. The gun ban was introduced in 1997. So er, no skyrocketing, and no going upwards. And still gun crime is minuscule part of British crime. So banning guns has nothing to do with causing more gun crime or causing more violent crime. That's just plainly not the case.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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pineapple pete
pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne
Member Since: 20th Sep 2004
Total posts: 5125
Posted: Written by: Lurch


lol sorry, but it's painful obvious you've never done any sort of recreational shooting. 50 rounds would be a *very* short range session



just curious, but how does someones (lack of) recreational shooting experience in any way affect any of the the issues being discussed here?

hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: pineapple pete


 Written by: Lurch


lol sorry, but it's painful obvious you've never done any sort of recreational shooting. 50 rounds would be a *very* short range session



just curious, but how does someones (lack of) recreational shooting experience in any way affect any of the the issues being discussed here?

hug



Because Firetom had queried whether there'd be any valid reason for gun owner to want to buy more than 50 rounds in a certain period- Lurch was pointing out that a single session of rec shooting would easily exceed 50 rounds.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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astar2
member

Member Since: 7th Jan 2006
Total posts: 37
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Btw: Is this thread about US gun laws, or is it about the shooting itself? confused wink tongue 'xcuse



Forgot what thread your in? ubblol


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Pele, Fire Tom. I dont think tread is going off topic. Guns played a significant role in the shootings. People from every country in the world are suggesting that lax gun control in America, and an American obsession with guns contributed to the massacre, in Virginia.

To put it another way. If you cant see why gun control is an important issue when discussing another school shooting spree in America, the perhaps you are missing something.

Lurch when a nation, with a convict heritage, decides to surrender their guns for good reason, then perhaps you should take notice.

If there was any truth to this I need to gun to protect my family story, then why are guns so frequently used against family members in America?

You have a point if you are concerned about where the money would come from to support a gun buy back scheme. Chances are it would come out of social welfare. However, America has a huge economy. And if the American people decided to spend a thousandths of their annual arms budget on a gun buy back scheme, then everyone, in the entire world, would live like royalty for the rest of their lives.

Its a choice. We dont have to live in a world filled with violence and terror. As a world leader, the ball is in Americas court. Try making a positive contribution.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Chelly
Chelly

Niraffe
Location: Up north
Member Since: 17th Mar 2006
Total posts: 884
Posted:My goodness - this thread brings up some very valid points on both sides. It makes a fascinating read. hug

But as a sidenote - there's one thing that bothers me about this whole sad story, which I feel has been grossly understated in this debate - what about the role that the university played in this? Now - they knew that people had been shot in the dorm. And yet, all they did was send out an e-mail around the departments urging people to be vigilant. Some of the students didn't even get this e-mail as they were in classes. This baffles me. There was an (obviously) mentally unstable, armed student running around the campus somewhere and they don't think to close the uni and evacuate the campus? I understand that they don't want to cause mass panic - but still.. confused

My thoughts go out to the families and friends of everyone involved in this horrible story, and I hope that eventually there will be a way they can find some peace from all this mess.


"Lots of beeping. And shaking and tinfoil." Chelly

"Are you sure it's a genuine test and not a robot heroin addict?" Cantus

---set free by the rather lovely FireTom---
--(right arm owned by Fyre)--

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:police stop a robbery

sooo may comparisons to this theme i couldnt resist!


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:chelly hug thanx smile

This thread tackles more of the gun laws than it is focussing on the (psychological) background of the incident... I was trying to get to that: Is anyone (else) out there who is ready to tackle the problem from the individual case, rather than from the general?

Stone, you really think I have not reviewed this from the gun law perspective? wink But you're making a VERY valid point in your post: "why are guns so frequently used against family members in America?" - if they are intended to protect them? umm

I am not opposing ppl to shoot 50 rpounds (+) in a single (training) session - I just am trying to point out:

Pls do this in a "controlled environment" and have them keep a record! Someone buying *scrolls up* eek 500 (+) rounds for pistols *pukes* is like someone buying 20 condoms for a single night... Excuse me. I was at a shooting range myself... shot 20 rounds and it was good enough - but that's just me, hey... shrug umm I'm good with "only" 14condoms/ night on a single gun tongue ubblol wink redface [/ironic] rolleyes


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Danke onewheeldave, I apologize to everyone if that last comment of mine seemed cold. A single range session can easily go through a couple hundred rounds, I even know many people who can go through 500 in a day. Limiting amount of ammunition you can buy would kind of be pointless. If you really wanted to you can make your own anyways.

chillybean: I actually don't think that the campus was negligent, other than in the banning CCW that's already been discussed earlier. But lets go over it anyways..

0715: VT Police respond to a double homicide, but all appearances it's domestic, NOT indicative of a mass killing. It appeared to be a domestic dispute, with an RA intervening and as a result also being killed.

0730: Police have done interviews, and have a person of interest. They do not think the gunman is still on campus (as we see later he wasn't)

0800: Classes begin, many people are en route even before 730. Since it appeared to be a completely isolated incident classes were allowed to continue, and an announcement was sent out for people to be aware.

0926: Police detain person of interest and interview him. "Attack" begins, but shooting does not.

0950: Police make entry, Cho is dead.

It's a rough timeline, and accounts vary but there you go.

Virginia tech has 25,000 students and covers 2600 acres. That's twenty-five thousand people. 900 in the dorms were informed door to door shortly after the first shooting. Thousands of people were showing up for class and spreading over the entire campus. To shut it down is basically akin to shutting down a small city. There is simply nowhere to PUT 25,000 people. There were 2 hours in between the shootings, they had no reason to suspect that it was going to happen again.


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astar2
member

Member Since: 7th Jan 2006
Total posts: 37
Posted:Gun laws are a very big part of the discussion, I was merely pointing out I thought it was funny that you thought it was exclusivly a gun laws thread.



I don't think buying 200 rounds is that much of a indicator that someone is going to go on a spree killing. Ive shot off about 100 rounds in a single sitting playing with my grandmothers .22 rifle. the few times ive gone target shooting with my father between the two of us shareing the rifle we probably averaged about 50 rounds each time. Both are bolt action rifles with a much slower fireing rate then a semi automatic. I suppose if I had my own rifle/had a fire arms certificate I don't think it would be to unreasonable to buy 200 rifle rounds at once if I found them for cheap.



I know lots of people where I grew up that would probably buy more as they spend a lot more time shooting and own a variety of weapons. I don't think they are all suicidal spree killers in waiting.



The fact is, theirs lots of people who fit the profile of this guy. All his memoirs and stuff that indicate he is a deranged killer I assume were private. A kid who is socially akward, a loner, filled with hate and a victim of bullying is a pretty common thing. Hell, It describes me in my last years of high school, although my hatred was pretty much directed at my self. I think it's a fairly common result of bullying and ostracizing in cliquey schools. Their was all kinds of kids who went to my school who were in far worse shape then I was, and they didn't go on a spree killing. They certainly could have robbed atleast a rifle from someones home if they were motivated enough, so don't tell me it's entirely a product of avaibility of guns.



Certainly semi automatic weapons are rarer then pump and bolt action rifles/shotguns in canada, but pump and bolt action rifles are even more capable of killing people, maybe not in numbers like can be acheived with semi-automatic weapons, but I really don't think someone who has decided that killing as many people as they can before they kill themselves/die in a shoot out with the cops make their decision based on an arbitary number of how many people they think they can get away with killing.



Im not sure where I stand on the gun control debate.



One thing I find absurd is that people often seem to think that the power of guns delude people into becomeing killers. My outlook is that people become killers for a variety of reasons. I tend to think if someone has slipped that far into apathy and hatred for humanity then they will find a way to accomplish their sick dream.



I personally enjoy target shooting very much, although my interests are shifting more towards archery these days after I got a free lesson on archery and realized it wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it to be (I was using a really bad method, once I learned how to hold the bow right and draw the string properly my ability improved to the point where I could actually hit the target)



I wouldn't want to own a gun, because I personally don't like the idea of someone robbing it from me and using it for nefarious purposes or selling it on the blackmarket where it will likely wind up being used for nefarious purposes. If I could keep a rifle at a fireing range that had a much more secure storage area then I could ever have in my home, I could see myself owning a gun.



If it were reasonably possible to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I would say gun control was a great idea. But I wonder if that is possible. I think the fact that powerful governments spend billions of dollars to fight drug trafficking and utterly fail is a good indication of the challenges associated with blockadeing the illegal sale of guns.



I also strongly believe that a person in risk of being a victim of a gun related crime ought to be able to defend themselves. It's just wrong to take away someones ability to defend themselves, it's like declawing a cat and letting it out every night to be at the mercy of other cats, raccoons and dogs in the neighbourhood.



That said, for most instances, a shotgun is a far more practical weapon for defense then a hand gun. But for people like pounce, and many others who's main priority isn't just home defense a shotgun is a non-solution.



maybe I have difficulty seeing the situation rationally, because I was raised in such a 'evil' gun culture where I was taught to respect and understand guns for what they are and what they can do in the wrong hands. But I doubt it.

EDITED_BY: astar2 (1177091241)


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Looks like I missed a few, gotta play catchup..

 Written by: Stone

If there was any truth to this "I need to gun to protect my family" story, then why are guns so frequently used against family members in America?



Are you referring to the heavily biased "statistic" about guns more likely to kill family members than intruders? Or the other biased one about how the criminal will magically take your gun away from you and use it against you?

The first was a statistic pulled from the New England Journal of Medicine from 1986. Lots of people like to try and cite that as a reliable source, but it covers statistics from a single city (seattle), and only involved incidents where there was a death. That means it did not include any situation where the intruder was wounded, or frighted away by the use or display of the firearm. I would say that's setting the whole study up. As many would say, thats like measuring a police officers effectiveness purely on the number of criminals they kill. ubbloco

As for the other, according to the National Crime survey, less than 1% of defensive gun uses result in the "badguy" taking the gun from the victim and using it against them.

Florida State Uni did whats usually considered one of the larges studies, and found over 2,400,000 defensive gun uses per year. Polls show that in ~98% of the cases displaying the weapon was enough to stop the attack. Also that 1 in 6 believed that their intervention prevented a loss of life, meaning 400,000+ lives were probably saved.

Nearly half of all burglaries in GB and even Canada where there is far stricter gun control are 'home invasion' type robberies where people are in the house. In the US conversely, it sits at around 17%

 Written by: FireTom

Pls do this in a "controlled environment" and have them keep a record! Someone buying *scrolls up* 500 (+) rounds for pistols *pukes* is like someone buying 20 condoms for a single night... Excuse me. I was at a shooting range myself... shot 20 rounds and it was good enough - but that's just me



Why do they need to have a record? Most gun owners have a decent estimate about how many rounds they've fired through their weapon, I'm probably close to 3,000 total. I see no reason anyone else needs to know that information though, you can't profile someone by the number of rounds they shoot. If anything I would be far more worried about the people who have *not* practiced with their firearm. You're right, you're not going to buy 20 condoms at once, but there is no reason ammo has to be shot right away, there isn't really any expiration date, rounds can easily be safe to shoot for decades. They've got a much better shelf life than condoms that's for sure. wink


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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted: Written by: astar2


If it were reasonably possible to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I would say gun control was a great idea. But I wonder if that is possible. I think the fact that powerful governments spend billions of dollars to fight drug trafficking and utterly fail is a good indication of the challenges associated with blockadeing the illegal sale of guns.

I also strongly believe that a person in risk of being a victim of a gun related crime ought to be able to defend themselves. It's just wrong to take away someones ability to defend themselves, it's like declawing a cat and letting it out every night to be at the mercy of other cats, raccoons and dogs in the neighbourhood.




Exactly! (and thanks for not capitalizing my name biggrin hug )

FireTom...I'm not sure I understand your response to me. It sounds like you think I believe stricter gun laws are the only way to go? And that's not at all what I believe. Perhaps I'm reading wrong, can you clarify?


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I got a little distracted, crashing the office network, but here goes

Tom: Maybe I misunderstood you. Were you saying that Pounce should look for a different job because the problems will never be solved? I can't imagine you would suggest abandoning those stuck in these awful situations. That those being hurt should not be helped because they fall into a category that seem deem helpless? Or were you saying that she should find a different job because she has to carry a gun? Because that is her choice to do so.
This shooting was not just a kid who was bullied. The incidents that they quote are ones from high school, I thought. High school is rough. Bullies are everywhere though, even with workplaces. Cho was more than just strange. Taking those picturea are illegal. We just had a guy prosecuted for taking pictures without consent. And he was not just tossed from his courses. His professors tried to get him to seek help. This is not a justified reaction to class discrepancies. I went to private schools on scholarships. My fellow students were multimillion dollar children. We didn't have food, my mother made clothes and I got clearance and handme downs. They got rid of their lexus sports car because it got a scratch and bought new ones. I didn't have one and walked many days (which isn't that bad really but). People tried to hit me with their cars. People threatened me and my friends. The cliques were horrible. Our high school was voted one of the worst. I was an outsider. Some people thought I was scarey and dangerous. The teachers knew me and talked to me though. My point was teasing and feeling left out is part of being a teen. Then, the stress shoots up again with kids leaving for college. For his mind to wrap around this concept he created, imo makes him unbalanced, not just a kid who got teased. After reading and hearing some of his work, he is not a Stephen King, he is young man who is unbalanced, there is a chorus of real, and frightening pain.

Chelly: While it is bad, two people shot does not constitute a lunatic who will run around shoot people. It often is a domestic situation. Boy catches girl with friend. Friends fight over something. Drug deal gone bad. In these cases, the shooting ends there. The school was right in emailing that there was reason for caution. From first glance this did not look like a killing spree.

There is an important distinction between being detained and being committed and this has to be kept some way. Keeping someone for observation can simply be someone who witnessed a traumatizing event. It could be someone who has a physical illness that appears to be a mental one, like some of the nervous system diseases, or those who cannot communicate. Sometimes people escape their caregivers. Also, people can be committed by two or more people who say that he or she is being a danger to oneself. It can happen as a way to ruin a reputation during a divorce or child custody.

Pounce: I agree with checking in on gun owners. We make drivers take a test before and check in later. Do they do this with gun licenses? They should create a program to just run through the licenses periodically. It would be a large data set, but I think the parameters of rejection would be pretty easy.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Chelly, I actually did bring it up in both of my previous long posts. The school failed the kids. And, as I mentioned before, this will bite them hard since in Aug 2006 they did a lock down immediately following an on campus shooting, but not this time. So, they can not say they were following protocal in this incident.

Problem is, there is already talk of a law suit of the victims families against the school and that turns a tragedy into a money grubbing event and I *HATE* that. It also won't help solve anything.

The State of Virginia is looking into the response and reaction of the University and of the police and if it could have been better. I understand it, and I think it is glaringly obvious that something could have been done better...kind of like looking into the response of the Hurricane Katrina fiasco, they know it was screwed up but they take forever figuring out how to fix it.

 Written by: FireTom



Stone, you really think I have not reviewed this from the gun law perspective? wink But you're making a VERY valid point in your post: "why are guns so frequently used against family members in America?" - if they are intended to protect them? umm



I was going to comment on Stone's post too, because it seems that he's overlooked every other post we've put up here discussing guns and...well, alot.

However, this particular statement reminded me of a woman today who was found guilty of shooting her sleeping preacher husband in the back with a shotgun because he made her do "kinky" things. Generally, people don't keep shotguns for protection but for hunting. However, taking guns out of homes because people kill with them is like taking cooking knives out of homes for the same reason.
shrug

 Written by: FireTom


I was at a shooting range myself... shot 20 rounds and it was good enough - but that's just me, hey...



I understand your point however it isn't at all uncommon for people to purchase ammo in bulk. Many gun stores will offer discounts for bulk purchases. The one my dad goes to (they've known him for years) gives him sweet discounts for buying his rounds for the season at once. Also, I have to say that when someone purchases practice rounds, they are for practice. The thought of anything other than a target being shot really doesn't come to mind. Beyond that, in the time he planned it he easily could have bought a couple rounds a week at different gun shops and not have raised a single eyebrow. It isn't uncommon for someone to go through a hundred or more rounds at a shooting range. That's not my thing when I hit the range but I recognise it happens alot, enough to not be suspicious when purchased.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by: faithinfire

I agree with checking in on gun owners. We make drivers take a test before and check in later. Do they do this with gun licenses? They should create a program to just run through the licenses periodically. It would be a large data set, but I think the parameters of rejection would be pretty easy.



They do, in some cases. It really depends if you're discussing gun ownership, or CCW license. If you're a felon, you cannot own or possess a gun regardless. A carry permit must be renewed every few years and you have to keep a clean record.

You can think of it like if you get commit a fairly serious traffic violation, chances are you'll keep your car, but your license will be suspended/revoked. Except in CCW cases I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting their permit back after if it's been rightfully revoked.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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biggins
biggins

member
Location: In Bed
Member Since: 6th Sep 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted: Written by: astar2

One thing I find absurd is that people often seem to think that the power of guns delude people into becomeing killers.



i agree but they make it very easy for people to kill other peopl.its a very impersonal way of killing someone. You stand away from them *bang*...your dead....*bang*....now you're dead......ad nauseum....

 Written by: chellybean



But as a sidenote - there's one thing that bothers me about this whole sad story, which I feel has been grossly understated in this debate - what about the role that the university played in this? Now - they knew that people had been shot in the dorm. And yet, all they did was send out an e-mail around the departments urging people to be vigilant. Some of the students didn't even get this e-mail as they were in classes. This baffles me. There was an (obviously) mentally unstable, armed student running around the campus somewhere and they don't think to close the uni and evacuate the campus? I understand that they don't want to cause mass panic - but still.. confused




i'd go further and question why was he still on campus bearing in mind he was repeatedly stalking people. Had mental health issues AND had tried to set fire to a dorm....but hey ho.....

 Written by: Lurch



They do, in some cases. It really depends if you're discussing gun ownership, or CCW license. If you're a felon, you cannot own or possess a gun regardless. A carry permit must be renewed every few years and you have to keep a clean record.

You can think of it like if you get commit a fairly serious traffic violation, chances are you'll keep your car, but your license will be suspended/revoked. Except in CCW cases I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting their permit back after if it's been rightfully revoked.



but do the checks go far enough? how about getting someone else to buy your gun for you (yes illegal i know BUT.....)


Wielding a Wooden Spoon

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Pele, the Virginia tech shootings was not an isolated incident. Guns are the problem, and the problem is just getting worse.

Gunman, hostage dead at NASA space centre. A gunman has killed a male hostage and himself at NASA's Johnson Space Centre campus in Texas in the US, just days after 33 people died in the bloodiest school shooting in US history.

Wake up America!


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:^^ shrug getting every days news huh? Much like the weather report: "Bullets are expected to fly all across Texas, Arizona, Florida again... ppl are advised to stay home... [/sarcasm]

Are my views so far off track? umm Pls educate (and excuse) me (for having gained length again)... you're free to ignore the entire post...

I thought to have tackled the "gun problem" and as I see it [sic] Another approach:

If you want a drivers license (in my country) you have to go to school and practice with a certified instructor. There are minimum requirements (hours and situations you have to master) before you can even apply for making the test - i.e. night driving, highway, city, countryside etc. I'd suggest the same or similar for obtaining a gun in the U.S.

PLUS - with a few exceptions - I would only allow a maximum number of rounds one can privately own and install a centralized network the shop owners have to put the data in. Hey - the U.S. can monitor domestic and int'l phone calls (without authorization even) - the flow of data is NOT THAT much.

You want to scare an intruder away? Guess 10 rounds are plenty. But to have a reserve and be prepared for the worst, take additional 30 - makes 40 rounds which should be enough to defend your home and family (yeah - I already hear you going: well then the intruder just hides and counts to 40 rounds... how about multiple intruders? a.s.o. [sic]) As for practice you can go to the shooting range and have to use their ammo... how 'bout that?

IMHO it's the easy access to guns and ammo that are a big part of the problem. Lurch - nice one "shelf life"... ubblol I get your point in "making your own rounds" - but as I said: It's the easy access. You'll never ever be able to stop ppl from killing others if they are determined to do so, but you can make it harder and "eventually" put them off. As Biggins put it correctly and I also tried to indicate: ... POW -> dead... POW -> almost dead... POW POW POW -> sure dead... NEXT... POW -> [inserts periodic ...]

BTW - SOME knifes, Nun-Chakkus and brass knuckles are prohibited (in my country). You are found having one, you get charged. Kitchen knives and machetes can be as lethal - but these have "alternate" purposes. Heck you even have to come up with a good reason (and in some cases even get a license) for owning certain kinds of DOGS in my country.

Law enforcement might not be there to prevent crimes - but certainly legislation is trying. BTW: "To protect and to serve" - I read this statement on a police car umm You have trouble with law enforcement in your country??? umm [triple sic] my dearest compassion - we too, they issue too many tickets.

Ok MANY ppl in Germany are able to drive the Autobahn with 180 kph (+++) myself is - yet the law is out there to protect the weak and so it's "generally advised" not to drive faster than 110 and in many situations it's strictly regulated because we seem to be the only ones in Europe. We have to acknowledge that we're a transit country and therefore surrender "our right to go as fast as we and our cars can" for the sake of sissies (both foreign and local)... don't want to stretch this, you get the idea.

@ Pounce, I was trying to indicate is that there are many problems in the world that are VERY unlikely to EVER get solved, but you're still making an effort and try. I guess your profession is a good indication for that. Domestic violence (against children) might not get eradicated "ever" (even if I strongly hope so), hence you're doing your part (and good on ya for that! hug ).

Surrendering against "gun ABuse" is the wrong signal... Clearer now? I would NEVER suggest you have to look for a different job help Excuse if that came across this way. hug (English = my second language)

Back to topic:

Thanks for giving these informations, Lurch - I STILL guess the University could have done more as there are speakers on campus, no? Not just shrug it off like: Ah, two got shot dead - the show has to go on, make a memo. TWO deaths on Campus... how cold did the US become? Sure 2 against 25.000 - still.

The kid was troubled, but as his teacher I would have given an "F" to anyone in the classroom stating "go back to China", I would have beaten the rest of the Campus into submission to "fair play"... Tell you that much. MILLION things went wrong, before he snapped - what were they thinking? [/rants about "elitists"]. This guy really had a message - IMNSHO - don't you get it? umm

There are now at least TWO other members on this board who got bullied at school. How many more are victims of mobbing? How far can one go? It's always the others, I know. Sure, none of us was taking a gun and went out. But where does it start? Doesn't it already start by "keying" that Merc, illegally parked on the sidewalk? umm

Personally I want to aim at starting with myself, my own thoughts and actions. Stalking and violent fantasies alone don't make a (serial) killer.

I'm NOT in ANY WAY justifying his actions, okay? He's NOT a "hero". IMO he's a coward! TWO WRONGS NEVER (!!!) MAKE A RIGHT. Please do not put this into my words!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom



If you want a drivers license (in my country) you have to go to school and practice with a certified instructor. There are minimum requirements (hours and situations you have to master) before you can even apply for making the test - i.e. night driving, highway, city, countryside etc. I'd suggest the same or similar for obtaining a gun in the U.S.







Reading about the car comparison, it occurred to me that, in the US (which presumably has similar strict test and license requiements for car driving as the UK does), that it's generally considerably easier to obtain a gun, than it is to get licensed to drive a car.



That's pretty strange, isn't it?



A car can be a lethal weapon, hence the reason why many hours of practice with a qualified instructor and a substantial testing requirement.



But a gun is surely considerably more dangerous than a car- so I'd agree with tom in suggesting that, shouldn't it be the case than getting a gun legally should entail at least the same amount of practise and testing as getting a car license?



And, if not, why not? (I'm directing that question to those who have been defending the current relative ease of gun ownership in the US).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: Stone


Pele, the Virginia tech shootings was not an isolated incident. Guns are the problem, and the problem is just getting worse.

Gunman, hostage dead at NASA space centre. A gunman has killed a male hostage and himself at NASA's Johnson Space Centre campus in Texas in the US, just days after 33 people died in the bloodiest school shooting in US history.

Wake up America!



confused No one ever said it was isolated and since I live here, I know the state of things here much better than you do actually. If you'd read any of my previous posts, then you'd know that. In fact, I just posted about a different shooting in my last post. Please, before you swallow your foot any further, read through all of my posts thoroughly.
Guns are not the problem. Their use is a symptom of a greater problem which is not being dealt with. Bigotry of many forms, segregation and economics are the problem. Whomever it was that said that we have this great economy perhaps should live here for awhile. The vast majority of the population is either drowning in debt or living in the lower middle class to poverty levels here while the rich step all over us to get richer. It causes stress and stress breaks people.
And since politicians are in tight with their rich buddies, it makes it hard to defeat.
The bigotry, don't get me started.
Am I saying that these are US only problems? Nope. But I am saying that there is little to no progress in many places to even remotely addressing, let alone solving, these issues and in that the US fails. Guns allow for the death of more people, absolutely but I whole heartedly believe that people who kill would do so with or without a gun.

AND because the Columbine anniversary was today, every year around this time, there is an uproar of such actions or empty threats surrounding it, which I think is worse.

I also said in a previous post that I agree with stricter gun laws but that I do not think taking them away will make a difference and that there in fact *was* a "buy out" (which was termed "Don't ask, don't tell" turn in) and it did not work.

We're (the US-ers on here) not blind to the issue but since we live here, we know the laws, we know the (sad) situations of day to day life here and we know our Constitution we're telling you that alot of what is being proposed here won't hold up.

Personally, I say rip funding out of the war, bring the "boys" home and use the funding here. BUT the right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution of the U.S. With each of the 50 states determining their own gun laws instead of the federal government, for the federal gov't to amend the Constitution in this matter would take years for the states, many with extremely opposing views on this matter (Texas would arm grade schoolers while Cali and NY would ban guns outright I think)..and since it's politics, I doubt highly that it will ever happen.

Our gov't is content killing people overseas and sending our military over there to die despite what the constituents want, so I believe (and this belief makes me sad) that they view the victims of gun deaths as being expendible in the face of the money they bring in from guns. Let's face it, if the fact that we've had Presidents and politicians shot didn't change gun laws drastically, very little will. They are too consumed with focusing on the "foreign" and imaginary evils rather than the issues here at home.

Please Stone, before you comment further on what you think I believe or have said, go back and read my (rather lengthy) previous posts.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted:Just in from the experts on FOX news--

THE REAL PROBLEM!!

Forget gun control-- stock up on HOLY WATER.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted: Written by: FireTom


The kid was troubled, but as his teacher I would have given an "F" to anyone in the classroom stating "go back to China", I would have beaten the rest of the Campus into submission to "fair play"... Tell you that much. MILLION things went wrong, before he snapped - what were they thinking? [/rants about "elitists"]. This guy really had a message - IMNSHO - don't you get it? umm




That's exactly my point. As Pele said, guns are a symptom of a larger problem, but they are not the problem itself. We need better education (and I'm not necessarily referring to book or institution education either) on humanity. Why is there such a rampant problem of bullying in our schools? Is it not the ideal of teachers to educate our youth and help raise them into adulthood? Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the teachers. I'm blaming the system. Teachers are underpaid and unappreciated, and because of that I think they have less invested in looking out for larger issues outside of their immediate classrooms. But you are right, as authority figures the teachers should have intervened when other classmates were laughing at Cho and calling him names. And it should have started even years before then with teachers setting the tone in elementary school of equality and humanity.

FireTom...you seem a little more clear but I'm not entirely sure what you're original statement towards me meant. But it's not a big deal, we're moving on in the discussion.

onewheeldave...you are very right in that it's technically much easier to obtain a firearm than a driver's license. And there is something wrong with that. When I got my driver's license, I had to take Driver's Education in school, I had to obtain my permit six months prior, I had to pass a written and a practical driver's test. When I purchased my firearm, I had to fill out a form and wait three days. Now, getting your CCW is a whole different ballgame, and you can liken that experience to getting your driver's license, except it includes a very thorough background check as well (which in all seriousness, if you don't have your i's dotted and t's crossed on your application and everything in your background doesn't following in logical order, you WILL be denied). Nevertheless, if we implement something like that process, there's this little part of me that is fearful of that small population such as Cho that would only gain better experience on use and aim in shooting. However, if we implemented a psychological evaluation process, perhaps we could eliminate that issues.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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