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Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek

Tragic Loss of Life

This [censored] really saddens me. My thoughts go out to the victims, survivors and all their families.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch said:
 Written by:

What attitude is that? That we don't want to make ourselves defenseless against criminals? Thats a bit of backward logic there. The first step is to remove the weapons from criminals, not from the good people.



Lurch, its only when I substitute Indians or slaves for criminals in statements like the above, that Americas obsession with guns makes any sense.

Sure, as pioneers the fear of attack by Indians must have been constant, and frightening. So frightening, that the fear still drives American domestic and foreign policy today.

How is this linked to gun deaths in the home? Describing the demise of so-called lintel guns (firearms hung over the door ready for immediate action in frontier times) a Shooting Sports Retailer noted: Today, guns in a home used for self protection are not hung over the door but are more likely in a desk drawer or beside the bed in a night stand. When a child is hurt in a firearm accident it is often the self defense gun that was found, played with, and ultimately fired by the youngster. From Self-Defense: The Great Myth of Americas Gun Industry.

Im not sure how we can transcend this fear that manifests in the right to bear arms mantra, but the world seems destined to remain a place of terror and violence until we do.

It should also be noted that in the UK, "gun licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun. Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun" From LazyAngels link on Gun politics and a history of gun control in the UK.


Actually, the cops do target the cars in Australia. If you are caught driving recklessly or a repeat drunk driver, then they confiscate your car.

Though Im sure, in America there must be an Amendment, similar to the second, that protects the right of Americans to drive their SUVs no matter what the consequences.

Have a nice day smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Exactly, you don't ban the cars because that will stop drunk driving. You ban driving while drunk, and take their car if they're bad. How is that any different from what I'm asking? Don't remove guns from everyone, you take them from those who misbehave.

There is no fear in the "right to bear arms" mantra. YOU have placed that fear there on your own. We are not a country of scared whimpering people. I will fight for right to own a gun not because I'm scared and feel that I need to be armed, but because it is my RIGHT, and noone has given me a valid reason other than because I might possibly do something in the future that might hurt someone. That's not a good enough reason IMO.

Are you equating modern criminals to Native Americans and slaves Stone? If so I think you should explain that a bit more because right now that looks *really* bad....


How do we help prevent accidental gun deaths from children playing with guns? Education would be a good first step. Education to both the gun owner, on their responsibility to maintain the weapon in a safe place. And to the child, so they know that the weapon is not a toy. I learned from when I was little that guns aren't toys. You don't touch a gun without an adult present, and always treat every gun as if it were loaded, at all times. Kids are not retarded, they can be taught to act responsibly around weapons.

Here is a story for you guys, I'm curious what you think about it.

 Written by:

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez 23 and Enrico Garza 26, probably believed they would easily overpower a home alone 11 year old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two story home.


It seems the two crooks never learned two things, they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.


Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buck shot from the 11 year olds knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.


It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim, 50 year old David Burien, was not so lucky as he died from stab wounds to the chest.



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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Hey and I'll tell you the story of Santa... Lurch - quote your sorces, so we can verify. mad2 If you're quoteing from a (local) newspaper, you may find that most of those articles are available online - do a search. Google is not bad for that.



Other than that I guess we're trying to convince the devil that he should become and angel... no offence.



Faith, it was not meant personal but I guess it's obvious, where I'm going with it and I was not quoting you apart from the context...



three is a magic number, thanks for reminding me.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1178160391)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted: Written by: Lurch


the "right to bear arms"



I'd love to have Bear arms.

wink


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, I think there is a bit more at stake here, than your RIGHT to own a gun. A lot of people are getting hurt, regardless of what the statisticians say. What we have at the moment isnt working.

As far as the future goes, it seems like America is locked into this loop of violence, the right to own a gun and the second amendment.

I think education would help prevent some gun deaths. But I think the real problem is that we dont know how to trust each other.

grouphug


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:OWD. I for one am glad you live in a gun control society. After reading your post I couldn't help but wonder whether yours might be a rather unique situation in that you weren't sure you wanted to "do the deed" so to speak, maybe 90 something percent, but not 100 and were using the lack of an appropriate method as a sort of "excuse" to mitigate your actions. I was also thinking that shotguns are available in the UK so, technically, that method was available.

Then I did a little, ok a lot of online research. I won't torture you with links, but suffice to say that given the "success" rates of suicide by firearm ( when compared to other methods ) among those who are serious about it, I had to rethink my opinion on this matter.

I'm sure we all know where Stone was going with the Indians, slaves and criminals statement. I did read that paper, but for some reason, page two appears to be missing.

Maybe I watch too many movies but I'm under the impression that America is overrun with gun toting criminals just itching to make you a victim and when I compare that impression to my actual reality I get to thinking that you actually NEED a gun in America, regardless of lifestyle choice. I'm wrong ???

Lurch...no-one's suggesting that America is a country full of wimps, and that's and that's where I was trying to go with the self reliance idea. I have respect for Americans wanting to look after themselves rather than relying on their government. Another pro gun argument ( still not sure how valid this is ) that appeals to me is the idea that an armed population has the capability of influencing their governments domestic policies. Really...who wants to piss off a 100 million ++ armed citizens ?

But I do find myself wondering at Stone's statement about having an armed population and it's affect on foreign policy.

Good thing that skeet shooter had the foresight to load the shotgun with buckshot. It's an inspiring story to be sure, but how common are scenarios like that? really ?


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I think one thing we need to remember is for the most part, it's not as bad as you think. Bad things happen. Horrible things happen. But I would say that the majority of us live normal lives with little to no violence. The media portrays bad things, because that is what sells.
And as for trust, I think you would find that we have tight communities in many areas. We look out for each other. There is trust and support. There are also people who will take that trust and abuse it.
About a month ago, two robbers were casing a neighborhood. They set it up with one man standing by a truck with a flat waiting for his friend to bring him a new one. The neighbors talked to him and they gave him a sandwich. And the next day, they came back and robbed a house, beating the husband, and threatened the wife. The getaway vehicle was the same truck. More actually happened but it wasn't reported in detail. I just know because the cop that investigated it was the one of the state office girl's husbands
http://www.gmtoday.com/news/local_stories/2007/April_07/04122007_13.asp
since we need to quote sources

Education is necessary because it takes away the mystery. With less mystery the fear and curiosity goes down. Because of this, there is less messing around with guns and accidents go down.

But it wasn't an accident what happened in Virginia and I'm glad the govenor took steps to close the loophole


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stout


OWD. I for one am glad you live in a gun control society. After reading your post I couldn't help but wonder whether yours might be a rather unique situation in that you weren't sure you wanted to "do the deed" so to speak, maybe 90 something percent, but not 100 and were using the lack of an appropriate method as a sort of "excuse" to mitigate your actions. I was also thinking that shotguns are available in the UK so, technically, that method was available.



No, it was 100%, but with conditions (certainty of death, minimal/zero pain, no option for regret (ie no falling etc, etc).

Combined with being delusional, which, as I tried to show previously, makes diferences that those who've not been through an extended period of severe depression (and thus, mental illness) are unlikely to appreciate.

I respect your right to doubt, but ultimately, all I can say/explain is what I've said already- it's not a thing I particualrly want to go over on a public thread- you either take my word for it or you don't and I completely understand if you do have doubts.

As for the shotgun- you need either a licensing process (hence, no immediacy) or relevant criminal contacts- it wasn't an option.

Out of interest, you mentioned some stats about 'success' and suicide firearms- could you elaborate? I'd be interested in whether it confirms or denies what i was saying above.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Without wanting to be too morbid, let's imagine a scenario-



the person is completely gone, depression has gone from being a cyclical occurance that used to steal just weeks/months of their life- to an ever constant presence that permeates every thought and feeling of their existence.



Depression is always hard, imagine what it becomes like when it is constant, for, say, two solid years.



A viscious cycle where all your fears and negative assessments of their mind have become self-fulfilling prophecies- his/her fear that they are unloved and friendless are now undeniably actualised, no-one can stand the presence of a person who is unremittingly negative, dark, self-obsessed and miserable- thus the cycle is perpetuated and amplified.



It is only if/when they make a full recovery that they will understand that they themselves are, albeit on unconscious/habitual levels, responsible for this dark, dark state.



Only if/when they make a full recovery, that they will appreciate just how much energy is taken to fuel that negative dark mentality/emotionality.



Where they are now- right in the heart of it, their is no possibility of recognising that.



And so they see there misery as coming from a world, from a society, from social rejection, from being alone and, ultimately, from a reality that is apparently conscious and which enjoys torturing them with unlikley dark coincidences that can not be accounted for in any other way.



They've seen the people around them become as stone- moving shapes that look human, yet which have no being, no connection, no hint of empathy or even consciousness- a world of moving stones of which they (the victim of depression) can be no part.



They want out- there are some limits, they still possess some memory of when they felt something for those who were once friends or family, so maybe they're not, for example, going to end it in, say, the family home.



Maybe they've read the relevant book '***** *x** 'where it's been explianed that the usual ways, pharmacuticals, wrist slitting, etc, tend not to work- the last thing they want is a failed attempt and a life in hospital with missing messed up organs from a failed overdose.



they just want out- 100% guaranteed ending; and, they'd prefer for their final microseconds in this miserable place to not be in pain, fear or fighting for breathe (hence, not drowning/hanging)- they may be suicidal, but they're still fussy and they've still got standards.



And now, add a new element- they're American and they've got a gun in the draw.



Spending so much time alone in their own personal darkness, with their obsessive fantasies of ending it.



They fantasise about downing overdose drugs and how then, maybe people will, over their corpse, finally feel something for them.



Just a fantasy, cos, for the reasons above, they won't do that.



Can anyone really doubt that, if there's a gun in the draw, than fantasies involving it are going to progress a little further?



Sometime during this never-ending misery, they'll put it in their mouth, maybe practicing getting the angle right, so the bullet, if fired, will take out as much of their brain as possible.



Done once, it's likey to be done again and again.



Holding a loaded gun in the mouth whilst feeling suicidal, feeling the weight of unending months/years of misery/isolation/hopelessness, is a most precarious situation.



Soon, they start playing with putting pressure on the trigger, all the time the darkness floods in and tears literally seep out of them, for the thousandth time, an endlessly boring, repeated cycle of misery- their throat feels clogged with cobwebs, bored, hopeless, lost, unloved, BANG.....



In the end, they didn't even make the choice, the gun just went off, too much pressure on the trigger.



That's what can happen when a truly suicidal person puts a gun in their mouth.



Theoretically, in the UK, we can get a gun, it's just a lot harder- there's no real legal way, so you need contacts and you need to make an effort- two things which many suicidal people often lack.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Honestly guys, I'm truely lost why you think the US is such a horrible violent place. It's not. My wants and needs to own a weapon has nothing to do with constantly fearing some criminal is going to break down my door. Stout I know you weren't suggesting that, but everyone is always asking why we are in fear. We're not! and we're taking steps to ensure our safety. The same way you buckle your seatbelt in a car, what are the chances you're going to get into an accident? Very small. Are you constantly scared of getting in an accident? Probably not. Do you do it anyways? You should!

I completely believe in self reliance and responsibility. As I've said before, I would not want anyone to risk their life for me. If something gets to the point where I need a weapon, calling the police won't stop it. The idea that a government is only a good government when it fears its people is an important one, but probably a different discussion all together.

It's a sad story OWD. But your hypothetical 'victim' did make the choice ultimatly. As harsh as it sounds, passing blame on the gun is wrong. Depressed people need help, thats obvious, but is it up to them to get it, or up to big brother to figure out they're depressed, and give them the help they need/protect them from themself? Make your choice, but personally I'd fall more on the side of personal responsibility.


Here is another one, slightly more controvertial, I'll even post two versions of it to show a bit of media bias.


 Written by:

A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited.
Holdup victim had concealed-carry permit
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Damian G. Guevara and Patrick O'Donnell
Plain Dealer Reporters

Damon Wells is the man gun supporters were imagining when they fought for the right to carry concealed weapons.

He had a permit to carry his gun, and he had the gun on him when a pair of teenage thieves approached him Saturday night on his front porch in Cleveland.

When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest, police said. Arthur Buford, 15, died after stumbling away and collapsing on a sidewalk near East 134th Street and Kinsman Road.

City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged for what appears to be the first time a concealed-carry permit holder has shot and killed an attacker.

Nonetheless, the shooting reignited the debate that flared three years ago when Ohio's concealed-carry law took effect.

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's accomplice disappeared after the shooting and had not been caught as of Monday night. Police found a .38-caliber handgun in the mail chute of a nearby house. They believe it belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson firearm from Wells as evidence, the police report shows.

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "Anytime somebody dies, it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

Irvine said it was "great that a potential victim is able to continue his life instead of having a criminal take it."

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

A man who answered a phone number for Wells refused to comment and hung up. No one answered the door at Wells' home.

Plain Dealer reporters Jesse Tinsley and Brie Zeltner and researcher Cheryl Diamond contributed to this story.

[url=http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.s....xml&coll=2


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:As a by the way, if one of the arguments is "victims will be less well armed than criminals" then can I ask how that's a bad thing?

If you don't have a gun, but the person mugging you DOES then you are much less likely to fight back. You are, in fact, more likely to be memorising their features and clothing so you can identify them to the police later. You just do what they say (give them the money, generally) and tell the police about it later.

On the other hand if you DO have a gun, you are far more likely to try to fight back, with the result of one or both of you being killed.

Very few people commit crimes with a weapon with ANY intention of using it, it's merely as a way to get the person to do what they say.

The main solution I've read about in self defense books is to run away or just do what the criminal says. Only if you are certain that they are intending to kill you do you offer resistance. That way you're much more likely to walk away alive.

Just a thought.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Wait, so because they *probably* won't use the weapon to hurt you they get free reign to commit whatever crime they want?

Sorry but that philosophy doesn't fly with me. The reality is that you probably won't be thinking to memorize their features and clothing.

I will agree with you partially however. If a criminal has a gun on you already, and has threatened to kill, it's not wise to go for your weapon. Not because I think they shouldn't be harmed, but because all they have to do is squeeze the trigger, you have much more to do, and take much more time in order to get your shot off. If someone got the drop on me somehow, and had a gun at me, and wanted my wallet and keys, of course I would give it to them. The trick is to never let yourself get in that position to begin with.

As bad as it sounds, I take no pity on a criminal killed while commiting a crime. If I die while trying to defend myself, then at least I died trying. That was MY choice to make, and it should always be MY choice, not the governments to tell me I can't defend myself and I should give in to the criminal.

Who cares if they had an intention on using the weapon or not? If they threaten me, my family, or my loved ones with a weapon, they INTEND on making us think that they intent on using it. A threat is a threat, I'm not going to wait to see if it's idle or not, because by the time that determination is made it may well be too late.

As to how is being 'less well armed than criminals'... Just sit and think about it for a second.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I would say that I think some of us refuse to be victims, either it not being in our personalities or done with doing that having given up so much to others before.



For some people, they say it's just a purse or wallet. It has vital information about you including where you live. It may have your keys too. I've had so many problems with my card and people "borrowing" it and stupid clerks not noticing that it is a guy using it and a girl's name on it, that the banks are questioning my authenticity. Two times in a year. Plus a missing card here and there.



I will not go gently. You want my purse, watch me hurt you. I'll take some of your skin with me so that we can get a DNA match (possibly), because witness identification can be wrong. DNA not so much.



I am more than willing to help people, but I will not give them an invitation to break into my home, take my only way to get to work, take my money-i have so little anyways. I refuse to make myself a victim again.



If the RA had been armed then maybe only two or three people would have died instead of 33.



I know the arguement is there that if Cho didn't have a gun that this wouldn't have happened. We do not live in a country where guns are illegal though. Also we do not know that Cho would not have found some other means to wreak havoc on the University and those he thought wronged him.

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1178226973)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch




It's a sad story OWD. But your hypothetical 'victim' did make the choice ultimatly. As harsh as it sounds, passing blame on the gun is wrong. Depressed people need help, thats obvious, but is it up to them to get it, or up to big brother to figure out they're depressed, and give them the help they need/protect them from themself? Make your choice, but personally I'd fall more on the side of personal responsibility.





I'm not blaming the gun, simply pointing out that easy access to guns enables a situation where suicide is more likely, in some cases, than if guns were not easily accessible and other methods of suicide are the only option.

I'm not blaming guns.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Lurch, i do see your point of view; for example, i agree fully that if a mugger attempts to inflict violence on a victim, that they are fair game, up to and including, being killed by that victim (if they are capable of doing so).

Everyone has a right to walk from A to B without being accosted, if someone wishes to inflict violence on that person then, iMO, they deserve what they get.

If I lived in a state where guns were routinely carried by criminals and it was legal to own one, i've got to say that there's a possibility I would look into getting one (however, I'm very glad to be living in a country where this is not the case).

My question to you is- why is the line drawn at semi-automatic firearms?

What if fully automatic rifles/AKs/sub-machine guns were legal?

After all, one of your arguments is that good citizens should have access to guns to defend against armed criminals.

Some of those criminals have fully automatic rifles, against which a pistol is not the ideal defence.

Should citizens have legal access to grenades/chemical weapons etc, etc.

Of course not (I'm assuming you agree), so, what is the criteria by which the line is drawn?

a second question- would you feel comfortable living in the UK, where you wouldn't be able to own a gun?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:It's such a double standard. You say guns don't kill people, people kill people.

yet magically guns DO protect people?

Surely people protect people?

The police, my neighbours, my friends and my attitudes protect me. You can't have it both ways. Unless it's heads I win, tails you lose. biggrin


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Guns can protect me without killing anyone. I still need to be there for the gun to protect me, I am the deciding force, the gun is just a tool.

As to why semi automatic. We've already given up fully automatic weapons. But they ARE still legal, you just need to jump through flaming hoops of doom to get the permits to have one. Biological and chemical weapons can't be used for personal defense. Neither can grenades. I haven't heard of any crimes in the US involving live grenades.. I have heard of a few in the UK though... wink

To those of you who say 'give the criminal what they want'. What if the criminal wants your child?


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch







As to why semi automatic. We've already given up fully automatic weapons. But they ARE still legal, you just need to jump through flaming hoops of doom to get the permits to have one. Biological and chemical weapons can't be used for personal defense. Neither can grenades. I haven't heard of any crimes in the US involving live grenades.. I have heard of a few in the UK though... wink









So effectively, fully automatic weapons are, if not illegal, made extremely difficult to obtain.



So the question(s) remains,



1. why restrict fully automatic weapons when it can be argued that they can be used for self-defence by responsible gun owners?



2. concerning grenades, it can easily be argued that they can fulfill a self-defence need by, for example, military units in a war zone.



The relevance of this being, in the US, there are many survivalist groups who believe that very tough times are coming in which full-on military style weaponry will be absolutely essential for the survival of them and their families.



On what grounds, morally, can you (and others who consider gun ownership to be a right) refuse them access to fully-automatic guns, grenades, armoured vehicles equipped with heavy-machine guns and, ultimately, chemical/biological weapons?



They're using pretty much the same argument as you- self-defence; on what grounds can you say they are not entitled to that kind of weaponry?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:I don't deny them access. I restrict their access. I don't see why a responsible person shouldn't be able to own whatever they want. NBC weapons are different because they fall under international laws and rules that individuals can't really manage, it would be pretty hard to justify using a nuclear weapon in self defense on a personal basis. As for grenades, guns, and armored cars. If you're legal, and want it bad enough to spend the money and go through the steps, go for it. What do I care? As I've said before no legal class 3 guns have been used in a crime in the US. Those laws are working well.

People say that if there was no crime, we wouldn't need guns. If there was no crime, what do you have to fear from them? And why does it matter if I want one?


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:did anyone besides me notice, that Sethis was back to post a comment? guys you're so cold hearted - it made my day... forget the guns, let's party beerchug grouphug ubbrollsmile

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:OWD, what I was trying to say is that I do understand where you're coming from. Previously, I didn't and while rummaging through the net I found several articles that stated if you're suicidal, and have a gun in your possession, the chances of you ending up dead are waaaaay higher than if you didn't have a gun.

The only suicides I'm personally familiar with have been very deliberate, especially when compared to the scenario of too much pressure on the trigger that you posted. One was the car exhaust thing, a couple were the long swim out into the cold ocean. That's why I was doubting the need for uber impulsiveness, and thought of several methods ( the jump off a building being the only one I posted ) where it only takes a second of action to commit.

Tom...this is HoP...nobody ever leaves, they just quit posting for a while wink


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch


I don't deny them access. I restrict their access. I don't see why a responsible person shouldn't be able to own whatever they want. NBC weapons are different because they fall under international laws and rules that individuals can't really manage, it would be pretty hard to justify using a nuclear weapon in self defense on a personal basis. As for grenades, guns, and armored cars. If you're legal, and want it bad enough to spend the money and go through the steps, go for it. What do I care? As I've said before no legal class 3 guns have been used in a crime in the US. Those laws are working well.





OK, so if you're OK for access to fully automatic weapons, machine guns, grenades etc, to be restricted to that considerable extent (which, in the case of many survivalist/end-timers is effectively denial, as they won't engage with the processes necessary to gain permission), even though they consider such armaments necessary for the protection of themselves and their families- would it then be fair, for the same reasons, to make legally getting hold of (currently easily available) handguns as difficult?

If not, why not?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted: Written by: Limits_To_Contest


 Written by: Lurch


the "right to bear arms"



I'd love to have Bear arms.

wink



i think we should also have the right to arm bears wink

*goes back to lurking status in this thread*


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Faith, you keep telling me the majority of Americans live normal lives with little to no violence, and dont need guns. Yet the discussion always comes back to individuals saying they need a gun. So, to me that says there must be a lack of trust somewhere. By trust, I mean trust outside your close circle of family and friends.



I dont think guns are the answer to a many social and economic problems that Americans face today. As far as education goes, kids copy their parents.



Lurch if anything, your stories prove the stupidity of citizens keeping guns. Chances are David Burien would be alive today if he hadnt had a gun. That his gun was used in another robbery speaks for its self.



I doubt the two illegal immigrants ever really set out to overpower a 11 year old girl. Chances are they were on the run after their encounter with David Burien.



I would suggest that a lot of people would be alive if David Burien hadnt tried to play the hero. He would be alive, the two men on the run would still be alive, and 11 year Patricia would not have to live the rest of her life with the trauma of shooting two people. Chances are the story is fiction.



How much is a life worth in the States? Wells drew his gun and shot one of the boys several times in the chest. What a hero? Shooting a kid! I think I could live with giving up a few bucks, compared with having to live for the rest of my life knowing Id shot a 15 year old kid several times in the chest. And where did the kids get the idea to used a gun? Hint, its enshrined in the Second Amendment.



The bottom line is that until there is a real change in the American pro gun culture, then killings and periodic massacres will remain a part of American life.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1178246446)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:FYI....the internet is not being kind to the truthiness of the story about the 11 year old shooter. The original source traces back to "NRA files" and was first published a few days ago by some strange looking outfit called LibertyPostdotorg. Keep an eye on Snopes with this one.



Jeff...this story just might warrant an Conservapedia entry.


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Stone


How much is a life worth in the States? Wells drew his gun and shot one of the boys several times in the chest. What a hero? Shooting a kid! I think I could live with giving up a few bucks, compared with having to live for the rest of my life knowing Id shot a 15 year old kid several times in the chest.



Can't wait for the next arnie film where he goes around killing ne're-do-well kids! wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth

Total posts: 246
Posted: Written by: Stone


Faith, you keep telling me the majority of Americans live normal lives with little to no violence, and dont need guns. Yet the discussion always comes back to individuals saying they need a gun. So, to me that says there must be a lack of trust somewhere. By trust, I mean trust outside your close circle of family and friends.




it takes a lot of paint brushes to paint all of america

i dont think anyone can speak for the majority of americans IMO (definitely not the president). just because people in this discussion keep coming back to individuals saying they need a gun doesn't really say anything about trust in america. their are plenty of places in america where the entire town lives, for the most part, a peaceful life with little or no violence in the entire community. yea you dont hear about them in the news often because that's the way they (we) like it. they may not be the majority but they exist.

"How much is a life worth in the States?"

i fully agree with what your saying but no so much how your saying it.

how much is life worth to people who would shoot someone first and ask questions later?

life is worth just as much over here rolleyes


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Stone: IMO many of us don't need a gun. It is our right though so long as we are law-abiding. Some people do need a gun though because of jobs or even living circumstances. Lurch and pounce are good examples of people having dangerous jobs and a gun being a powerful way to protect oneself.



As for trust, please see my previous post for an example of how people who trust get manipulated and lose their sense of safety.



MCP: Fine, we will put it this way. People attribute power, some from knowledge of and some from fear of guns. That attribution protects us.



The police are not always on our side. In Milwaukee, they were just covering a story where the police officers beat a man, who on the video was doing nothing, not even being verbally abusive. They beat him and broke his spine. One of my acquaintences from last year was tasered five times in a row because he is an alcoholic wandering down the street and the police decided to have some fun with him. They didn't give him a ticket or warn him to be quiet. They just tasered him.



Lurch: If things were peaceful, I don't really see the need for handguns. We are talking here in terms of protection. If you would argue that right when there was no reason to protect, you would need a different arguement. I wouldn't like them around because accidents do happen, for example while cleaning, and because we don't need them for protection it would be an even more pointless death.



OWD: Automatics aren't for personal protection. It would be a rare circumstance that you would need that much fire power. A handgun is more reasonable for that purpose. We all hope not to ever use it.



As for survivalists, they are an extreme group. One could argue against their license because much of their rhetoric is extremely paranoid. Some of them cannot legally own weapons because they have felonies.



edit:

Hi sethis wave

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1178291892)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:OWD: I'm alright with class 3 weapons being restricted because they require more specialized experience to handle responsibly. There are also rather limited uses for them, and they rarely have a proper place in self defense. There are however *many* perfectly valid uses both in sporting, and self defense for more "standard" weapons. Do you want me to say that all guns should be available to everyone or something? Not gonna happen.

Stone: How do any of those stories point to the stupidity of citizens owning weapons? "Shooting a kid!"

Yes, and the kid deserved to die. I'm sorry, but he gets *NO* pity from me. He pulled a gun on someone, and got what he had coming. It's *not* about the money, in trade for their life. They have just threatened to take YOUR life over those same couple bucks, how do you know that they won't just kill you anyways to get rid of witnesses? The kid's mentality behind carrying a gun had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. There was no self defense in the kids action, he was breaking the law, both in having the gun in the first place, and in using it in a crime. What more do you want?

If things were peaceful, and no one committed crime I don't see why we should ban guns, other than purely from the stigma they have that is constantly being encouraged by anti-gun people. We've already established they have many perfectly valid sporting uses, handguns included. The accidental deaths caused by handguns is less than 1% of accidental deaths in the country.

Lets throw some fun stats out there once again wink

According to JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) DOCTORS cause 225,000 accidental deaths annually. And according to USA Today ~800,000 active physicians are in the US

That comes out to about 0.28 deaths per doctor per year

Estimates say between 77-90 million gun owners in the US. In 2000, there were 776 accidental gun deaths in the US.

Coming out, conservatively, to .00001 deaths per gun owner per year.

So doctors are about 28,000 times more likely to accidentally kill you than a gun is... Not everyone has a gun, but everyone's got a doctor.

Sorry just having fun with numbers...


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:sorry lurch, but i dont see where you're coming from. are you saying we should ban doctors? or are you saying that this attempted mugging and subsequent shooting of a 15yr old was an accident?

also, why would you question the validity of other peoples statistics when you are note stating the sources of your estimates? or pick on current accuracy of other peoples statistics, when yours are *also* seven years old.. if youve picked on it earlier, is it necessary to be a hypocrit?

hug smile


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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