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Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek

Tragic Loss of Life

This [censored] really saddens me. My thoughts go out to the victims, survivors and all their families.


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Katinca
Katinca

See my vest.... see my vest...
Location: Adelaide - South Australia
Member Since: 9th May 2001
Total posts: 693
Posted:eh - so if your students were carrying guns you would have saved 32 lives (no chance of that anyhow - with two automatic pistols, he'd have killed at least a 1/2 dozen before anyone could have responded) in this instance - however how many more people would have been shot in more normal circumstances? eg "you censored I'm gonna kill you" which is far more 'normal' and likely.



IIRC, America has by far the highest numbers of gun related deaths and crimes in the 'western developed nations'.



approximately 1500 people die every year in the US through accidental gun discharge - these people wouldnt have died had guns been banned (for all but people with a real need, eg people living in rural areas). So in reality, you are sacrificing these 1500 people to feel 'safer' although you arent (you are far more likely to be killed with people walking around with more powerful weapons - that should be obvious given both the logic of it, and the evidence).



In civilised areas of the world, nasty people just steal cars, they mug people with their fists, and their kids dont shoot the neighbour by accident.



The argument that bringing guns under control is impossible is a crock - In Australia its worked a treat (and its only been happening for a relatively short time). Almost no-one can own a gun, and so they tend not to walk around with them and so they tend not to shoot people with them. Also - as they are quite well controlled, its kinda tricky to get your hands on one anyhow.



TBH - I dont think an international student studying in my state would have a chance in hell of getting his hands on a gun no matter how much he wanted one. No massacre, no accidental shootings, and far less gun crime (and I dont run the risk of being shot by some paranoid granny on medication because she didnt like the look of me).



yeah Criminals still have guns in Australia - however they also tend to get busted for carrying, or trying to get them - and then the guns get destroyed.



Criminals tend to shoot other Criminals in Australia anyhow - not your average joe.



It really amazes me that America plays such a role in pushing their way of life on the world, but when there is such an obvious lesson to be learned the other way, they just cant see it.



I actually think its plain funny that so many americans (and Im saying that because nobody else is saying this) seem to equate carrying guns with being allowed to carry automatic pistols and machine guns and the like. who actually needs automatic weapons? (unless to protect yourself in some kind of hollywood shootout with the terminator wink )...



Pounce, why couldnt you protect yourself in the same ways that people who work with potentially dangerous people do in other parts of the world? I personally know two people that are social workers whose job it is to work with mentally unstable or dangerous people - they certainly dont carry guns...oh yeah - its because your clients might have a gun? I bet by the time you noticed them pulling it you wouldnt be able to react in time - or are you considering shooting unarmed people?



I saw an interesting documentary about self-defence; the best police marksman /pistol user (fastest on the draw) wasnt able to draw his gun and fire it from a clipped holster before a suprise assailant had a knife in his neck, from 22 feet away. The assailant was able to pull the knife and cover the ground before the cop could unclip, switch off the safety, raise and fire the gun. This was measured as the police had to work out what the best fast reaction self-defence was for an assailant with a lethal weapon - it certainly wasnt using the gun.


Love and Light

~*~ Katinca ~*~

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:My post was offensive? I've been quite offended around here but I tend to keep most of those comments to myself. For example your insinuation that gun owners are criminals just waiting to be caught. Felons cannot buy firearms in the US, neither can anyone who's been convicted of even misdemeanor domestic assault. Nor anyone dishonorably discharged from the military. You must be 21 to purchase a handgun, 18 for a long arm.

Why would I go somewhere I might be in danger? It's my job for one thing. I've done Search & Rescue work pulling people from the roughest terrain in my state for 8 years. That includes backcountry areas dozens of miles from the nearest road, and over 60 to the nearest city. (T-Rex's have 2 legs btw).

To get a Concealed weapons permit you DO have to go to training and pass background checks. You cannot get them when you have psychological disorders. THERE ARE ALREADY LAWS IN PLACE FOR ALL OF THESE THINGS. The criminals don't follow, or care about them though. We're not just a bunch of cowboys out here in the wild west. We do have rules.

You think that just because someone chooses a job that may cause them to interact with unsavory people they should just accept the risk and not do anything to protect themselves? It's all well and good that you would just run away to do something else with your life, but some of us have convictions, have morales, and drives to better the community they live in. That forces us to interact with the people most would avoid.

As for these arguments that the entire class would be filled with armed individuals, it's just idiotic. CCW holders are a small part of the population, at or below 1%. So statistically speaking, from the 4 classrooms that he entered there probably would have been 1 person who was armed.

What does this have to do with international traffic laws? that doesn't even make sense.

As for suicide by cop, that is NOT what this is. People who commit suicide by cop act in a threatening manor with the express intent to provoke a lethal response. This person was a sociopath, acting purely for the lust of killing, and ended his own life, it has no relation to suicide by cop.


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astar2
member

Member Since: 7th Jan 2006
Total posts: 37
Posted:I think it's pretty gross oversight to look at a situation like this, and chalk it all up to guns. Something is pretty wrong when someone wants to go on a killing spree. It is a reaccuring situation especially in the united states, but it happens everywheres. I was a victim of swarming last summer and I and a bunch of other people in halifax were severly beaten with steel rebars and pipes. I was very lucky to survive it, and so were many other victims. These same kids who did this to me have access to guns.



Handguns are next to illegal in canada, but they still keep shooting people with them. assault rifles are illegal in canada, didn't stop what happened in a montreal university last september. Beating people with rebars is illegal to. my friends who dragged me into the ER that's right across the street from where this occured told the onduty cop what happened, and he didn't even bother to look out the doors see if the assailants were still there.



It's illegal for me to even carry pepperspray in canada. If I had a can of pepper spray I might have been able to flee the situation. I wouldn't have a slight limp or a memory impairment from being beaten several times with a chunk of iron.





some people are violent, and I think it's a far more sane to try to address the ills of a society that creates such people then to try to ban any implements they might use to do harm. who's to say even if he couldn't find a gun if he wanted one bad enough he wouldn't have filled a duffle bag full of molotov cocktails and went to the same dormitary? or create any manner of other improvised weapons to accomplish his goal?



I think the fact that a person can even form such a goal is far more worrying then a nation full of gun owners. Especially when these things happen regulary.

EDITED_BY: astar2 (1176904999)


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:You don't think that just saving a couple of the 33 dead would have been worth it? As I said before, we have 10 times the population of Australia. It's not very civil to call us uncivilized simply because of our guns. I'm not pushing MY way of life on anyone, you're trying to force yours on us. How blind do you have to be not to see that? Reread this thread and look at who's trying to push what on who. I'm standing up for rights that I have, and am in danger of losing. Yes, people die from gun related accidents. Drowning is also the 5th leading cause of death in the US, and over half of them are from private swimming pools and hot tubs. Neither of which are needed for anything other than person amusement, should we ban those as well? They kill more people after all, they must be more evil. rolleyes

As for automatic weapons, I think you're getting a bit confused. No one here, especially myself has condoned carrying automatic weapons. There is a difference between automatic, and semi automatic. I agree that there is no use for autmatic weapons outside of law enforcement, military, and sport. That's also why it's extremely difficult and expensive to be licensed to own such a weapon.

As for the knife thing, yes, statistically speaking within 20' the person with a knife will generally win. Knife wounds take time to take affect however, and both will usually end up severely injured or dead. The proper response would to have either already had your weapon drawn if he was suspected of being armed, or backpedal while drawing. I'm not entirely sure what your point of that argument is unless you're trying to say that firearms are ineffective in close quarters. But then that certainly isn't going to help your point that weapons are just inherently evil objects used for nothing but killing babies and corrupting youth.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:WHERE do you find me saying that? umm



Please re-read my post and skim off the sarcastic part.



Btw the "background checks" seem to fail miserably.



What beasts do you have to protect yourself against then?



And you're proposing that every classroom should have an armed representative? That's preposterous! Maybe every school should have their own SWAT team?



Ppl want to commit suicide (preferably AFTER having killed as many as possible, as they usually do) I guess guns in classrooms make that aim only a bit more challenging. They would still do what they do, but maybe choose a kindergarden instead?



I'm so happy that I decided NOT to migrate to the US - I would have to leave again. India - for example has a billion ppl - and there are firearms in circulation. Why are they able to keep peace?



Your arguments - IMHO - are lame. IF you'd present valid arguments, I'd reconsider my position, but in all those years (and repeated discussions) you were not able to convince me that (legal) firearms are the foundation of liberty.



I do well know that there are armed criminals out there - anywhere on the planet - that doesn't mean I have to carry one too. Maybe it's because I don't believe that violence is the appropriate answer to violence... maybe it's because I don't have to cling on to my possessions and maybe it's because I am not getting paranoid by the knowledge that "they are out there"... maybe I was just not watching (and believing) enough "Texas chainsaw massacres" [/sarcasm]



But I'm clearly not able to keep my emotions under control on this topic, so I might better bow out again.



[edit] Oh yes, pls excuse - I will not try to speak some sense (out of my perspective at least) into you again. The US generally has proven to be peacefully persuading... Come Kitty Kitty Kitty *gets ubbloco *

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Lurch


British cops are even pushing to have guns now, because the criminals out arm the police. Does that make any sense? in 1988 in reaction to a man going on a rampage and killing people, semi automatic and pump long arms, as well as a number of other firearms were banded in GB. The result was an increase in gun related crimes. It began to settle again, and in 1996 there was another mass killing and by 1997 virtually all firearms have been banned from Great Britain in my understanding. Both bans have been followed by crime spikes.

So we'll put it another way. Many states in the US have been allowing more CCW (concealed weapons). Our violent crimes have been fairly steadily falling. More guns in the population, falling crime. GB in contrast has removed their guns, and seen a direct increase in crime.




Well actually No. There were no crime spikes. Britain has seen a steady increase in gun crime, to 50 gun related crimes in 2005. (Yes, 50 in total) (Sorry, I know, using wikipedia as a source.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

So no increase in gun crime when criminals realise that everybody else is unarmed.

 Written by: Lurch


The point of a gun is not to kill. It is also to protect, and prevent killing.



The point of a gun IS to kill. That's what it was made for. It wasn't made to substantially cause physically damage to a door in order to gain access, or to hunt, or to start races. It didn't evolve from toy air rifles or a paintball gun. It's not a hunting weapon turned war instrument like you could argue bows are. It was specifically designed to kill people from far away.

It's protection value is based on the threat of the owner killing you with it. Cos that what's it's for.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:""Law abiding citizens" - are you talking about those ones, who haven't been convicted (yet)? "

He had every right to own those weapons, he did NOT have a right to carry them though.

There are bear, and mountain lion here. We haven't killed all the wildlife off yet.

No, if you would actually read and comprehend what I've been saying, I'm not calling for the mass armament of student populations. But there were people that WANTED to be able to carry their weapons to protect themselves on that specific campus, pushed to be legally allowed to, and were shot down.

People who commit suicide do not generally take others with them. If he had been shot dead by an armed student or teacher, they would be being praised as heroes right now and all of you know it.

You can take my arguments as lame if you want, that's your right. You don't have to live here.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yes, let's go over the whole argument one more time... please rolleyes



No I don't have to... and thanks god for that... btw YOU don't HAVE TO either... it's your choice... and a free world shrug hug



The merits seem to still outweigh the threats, I presume...



I'm out... bye

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888
888

newbie
Location: it depend , for now canada ..
Member Since: 27th Sep 2006
Total posts: 34
Posted:The diplomatic us government find a way to fight ( cause they always figth !)this kind of event .... and you know what it is ???? give gun to the teacher s !! can you belive that !!! do they have understand something about this tragical event ??
correct me if im not right, but 250 million on 300 million of the population has a gun... it s not enough ??


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929

faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Bombs were mentioned: it doesn't take that much time to make one or that much knowledge. especially because he was at one of the top tech schools. Oh, and we know the Internet doesn't have any of that information.

I thought I saw last night that both guns were legally purchased.

Cho did not have a legal psych history. because he was over the age of 21, they couldn't make him see a counselor. He did not have friends apparently and not for lack of his classmates trying. He would not talk. He was disturbing in his writing. And the problem with that is we don't know if the catalyst events actually happened or he was an author of those tales. There was a common theme of a stepfather abusing his thirteen year old son. Sometimes the son was killed and sometimes the son killed the stepfather.

Virginia does have lax laws with gun purchases. Personally, I would like to see a standard waiting period with mental evaluations and passing of a training course. Cho passed the current screening process and showed 3 forms of id. He did buy practice ammunition the first time. I believe the 9mm magazine held 15 bullets and the 22 held 12. I could be wrong.

Average joes are shot by criminals. I think this is evident in this tragedy. Every day someone is shot in Milwaukee. A recent one was a wrestling coach who was buying gas.
Guns are not the problem though. It is the mentality that leads to this event. Taking guns away will not e


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:What are you guys guys meaning by "practice ammo"? Practice ammo is still live ammunition. My understanding was it was a Glock 19 and Walther P22, thats 15, and 10 rounds. Be bought one gun, waited an entire month (Virginia has 1 handgun a month laws) before buying the other. It's not like this was a spur of the moment thing, or he didn't have time to think of a backup plan in case he couldn't get guns. He probably spent over $600 on the weapons, so don't tell me a simple bomb was out of the question price wise.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:the first purchase was 570 alone
forgive ignorance but what is the difference between regular ammunition and practice?


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Pele was the first to mention "practice" ammo. In general, practice ammunition is just cheaper, and less reliable. Self Defense ammo is generally higher powered (faster), with higher tolerances for reliability, and it's usually many times more expensive. Both are equally deadly, there is no point in making a distinction between the two.

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GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted: Written by: Mr Majestik


hrm, heres a crazy secenario:

University removes "gun free zone" setting, enabling students to legally carry firearms on themselves at all time for protection. one day, a disgurntled student comes to school with two handguns and starts shooting the place up. immediately 5 students who just happened to be carrying that day respond by drawing their firearms. then they realise "f**k, theres 4 psychos here trying to kill everyone, its up to me to stop them". then along come another 4 well intentioned students who just happened to be carrying that day, "censored theres a gang war going on in my school, need to protect my friends". then the police arrive "wtf!?!?!? people in plain clothes shooting everywhere".....*shot first ask later*.

yeah, the right to carry would make me feel safer...... umm



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Icarus
member

Member Since: 30th Sep 2003
Total posts: 165
Posted:I think all of us need to try to understand where the otherside are coming from. There is no use trying to convince people with statistics, and graemlins, when you are not willing to try to understand the otherside.
Lurch, Pounce, FireTom (because you seem to be the most emotionly involved)... I know if you met (and the topic of guns didn't come up rolleyes) you would consider each other good people. BUT This argument is never going to be resolved without understanding from both sides (not just on HoP - also in the wider world) about why people believe what they believe.

Now I have the little hippy-bit over with wink

As far as banning guns - I'm all for it. Sometimes you are too close to a situation to see there is alternatives. I also except that you can not be close enough to understand why US needs to have guns. Oz is a long way away!

And, as for not being able to get rid of guns... surely its all about the dollars. If guns were banned (even for the good guys) then the police would need to focus on two things - destroying all guns/ammo they found and keeping the gun manufacturer's weapons out of the Blackmarket. Guns would become so expensive that they wouldn't be viable. And any gun related crime would eventually get the time and resources it deserved (put into finding the culprit, and the gun). This would also need to include a better-funded police force... and more police (something that is probably lacking, and central to this issue)

Sure, for a few years, the bad guys would have them and the good guys wouldn't. I don't know how bad it would be - lurch, Pounce? Would it be anymore dangerous then crossing a road? And the next generation would definately be safer. Your children WOULD be safer.

They are little death sticks - and money talks.


... simplify ...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:It's true that guns have a certain appeal for protection in a culture where guns are freely available and shootings fairly common.



But, the fact that guns are easily available itself greatly increases the likelihood that you will have need to protect yourself.



In the UK, with its tight gun controls, there is still gun crime, but nowhere near the level in the US.



In the UK, as everywhere, occasionally some psycho who can't handle life wanders into a school and kills children; but it seems to be America that leads the way in school gun incidents.



As some have pointed out, it not just the availability of guns, but, IMO, that availability certainly helps.



Correct me if I'm wrong. but according to UK media, this mentally ill individual established at the gun shop that he was not mentally ill by simply ticking the relevant box and signing it??? (if so, then that is truly f*cked up and anyone claiming that current controls are sufficent ought to be ashamed of themselves).



Yes, he could have made a bomb, or used knives etc.



But, and this is IMO another fundamental part of the problem in the US, that's not cool.



Not, of course, that, in any grounded and non-dysfunctional society, killing with guns could be seen in any way as cool, but, in the US, on some level, it is.



In the UK, our main issue with gun crime is not the traditional armed robbery side of things, it's delusional wannabe hip-hop gansters youths, infected with an attitude that is a direct import from the US- 14 year old kids who see guns as being cool and an expression of power, yet too young to in any way appreciate the reality of what a gun wound is like.



Of course, much of US pro-gunners would dissasociate themselves from the hip-hop gangster side of things, instead they seem to be in the Charlton Heston 'From-my-cold-dead-hands' mould, whose fantasies are more to do with the old-west/frontier mentality.



I can't help feeling that there's a substantial causal connections between the two cultures, and that connection is that aspect of guns that goes beyond practical aspects and protection and veers towards gloryfication of guns.


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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted: Written by: Lurch


The point of a gun is not to kill. It is also to protect, and prevent killing. I'm not for victim disarmament.



censored - the point of a gun is to kill

this is exactly the mentality that if we all have nuclear weapons, no one will use them...why in the gods names don't we just have no weapons...and some attempt to move into a civil society where all life is respected...

shrug censored


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Wow, lots here.



Okay, he was here 15 yrs on a green card, that means he has all the most of the rights as a citizen, including the right to bear arms. He was not here alone, he moved here with his family. The news has been trying to involve them. I think they need to be left alone. So to whomever said, essentially, stop picking on the foreign kid cause your laws a flawed, it doesn't work. In the eyes of the law, he wasn't foreign.



Next, is there no profiling for purchases? Did you not read my post where I very clearly stated it is on a state by state basis. In NYS we have to apply, have a criminal background check, have references (and their backgrounds get checked before they are interviewed), etc. It's pretty difficult and lengthy, with a waiting period and all. To get a concealed weapon permit, harder. Yup, I think all states should have that, but then again, I am against concealed weapons and pistols anyway. Give me a rifle any day.

Lurch, I've shot practice rounds many times. They are not the same as live rounds. They do not have the same destructive force at all and it would take conciderably more to kill someone with them. They have a very low penetrating power, and I have, in fact, had them even ricochet off of solid targets that live rounds blow holes in. There is a big difference. However, what to are effective at, because they do not fly as true, is that they

serve to really hone your aim. Which in this case seems plausible and scary.



Now, let's go back to 2005 when he underwent hospitalization under a court order where his mental process was thought to be normal and where, upon his release it was suggested that he seek (but not mandated that he receive) outpatient help because he was a threat to himself, but not believed to be of others. Perhaps that was the first step to the decline.



Did you know that of all of the complaints by teachers, and two incidents of stalking, none of these were formally logued, not even this:

"One of the first Virginia Tech officials to recognize Cho's problems was award-winning poet Nikki Giovanni, who kicked him out of her introduction to creative writing class in late 2005.



Students in Giovanni's class had told their professor that Cho was taking photographs of their legs and knees under the desks with his cell phone. Female students refused to come to class. She said she considered him "mean" and "a bully."



Perhaps if the complaints were not brushed off and actually done formally (which no charges were ever pressed or complaints made formal), he could have gotten help and this could have been avoided.



Btw, that copy was from a report on MSNBC.com which is also available through the AP, along with some disturbing video footage, his manifesto and photos of him holding the guns that he took of himself and mailed to NBC between the two shootings. It was also addressing whomever it was that said he was the victim of bullies.



Let's look at the "sanity" issue.

According to the Webster's Dictionary it can be define as

1. Being of Sound Mind

2. Being of Sound Judgement



He had obviously been thinking and planning this for well over a month. The entire thing was executed (no pun intended) with precision planning. Those witnesses who survived the rooms said that he was very stoic and very calm. The pre-meditation alone takes a great deal of sanity by definition 1.

By definition 2, well, that is another question.



His manifesto was purely about his hatred for the rich. Should we then, instead of looking at the lack of action by the school and local law officials or at gun laws then look at the extremely flawed and faltering economic status of the US? How about how Western Culture on the whole idolizes those who have money and spend virtually no time really, honestly rectifying the situations of those who do not, which creates the erroneous attitude that because someone has more money they are a better person. We see it all the time with Celebrity and "Royalty" worship. Perhaps this contributed to this tragedy just as much as the availability of guns, or his mental status or the inaction of whomever.



My point? There are alot of variables that went into creating this circumstance and one is just as pathetic and enraging as the next. How, then, do we choose which ones to really take a look at and improve?

Such variables can be applied to almost every single mass murder case that I have seen.



So, let's get hypothetical (I hope) and say that a man goes on a serial spree after months and months of planning, shooting a person per month for nearly 3 years before getting caught.

Were that person to stand trial, this wouldn't be a debate. He would be held accountable, found "sane" due to his premeditation and probably sent to life in prison or sentenced to death, depending on the state. No less a tragedy but a very different circumstance.

However, there would be less excuses for his behaviour and *he* would be held accountable, no one else.



Because of the sudden and extreme nature of this, because he was a student, because of Columbine we are in this blame-finger pointing attempt to somehow find a reason. The reason is that this person snapped. This person couldn't deal with his own inadequecies and he snapped. People always have snapped, some in small ways, some in large and you can't predict it or stop it but you can hold that person accountable for their actions (Charles Manson comes to mind here). Go ahead, strengthen the laws, change the economy, medicate and hospitalize the insane and this will *still* happen.

And I HATE that it will.



I don't think this situation should be regarded any differently. He knew what he was doing and he didn't care. He would have found a way no matter what laws, complaints or social changes were in place.



And to whomever it was that came down on me for my statement about why he couldn't just kill himself and not anyone else, I am being completely serious, whether or not you like it. My family (not me) has been effected by more suicides than I care to count and while the families are horribly affected, at least they didn't cause trauma to the thousands of others that being a coward (and these gunmen are) does. I do not, and will not, feel bad for Cho. I do, however, feel horrible for his family. They too have lost someone and in such a *horrible* way as to bring them under ridicule for the rest of their lives (which, while I do not feel it, I know there are many ignorant people who will try to blame his family as well).



Now, back in the late 80's, I believe it was, there was a toughening of gun laws here thanks to the popularity of the bullets nicknamed "Cop Killers" amongst gangs. There was a don't ask, don't tell turn in policy for anyone and everyone with a gun, legally or not. Literally a free walk away from any trouble or liability for having an illegal gun. Loads and loads of guns were taken into custody and it didn't change a thing. Policies were put into place. Prices go up on black market stuff, drugs, guns, etc..and the people who want it find a way. Nothing has changed, and Columbine happened not long after. The automatic weapons the Columbine kids used were outlawed completely. No help.



Icarus, you are right, they are little death sticks, and money does talk..and the "bad guys" already have them and the "good guys" don't. I don't know what gang issues are like in other countries but in major cities here, it's bad. They get their weapons illegally and don't care who they shoot. In Rochester (I live in a suburb) last year alone around 10 children under the age of 12 died in drive-by shootings gone bad. They did not have guns. Of the shooters that they caught, none of their guns were legally owned. We already live in that situation here Icarus and it doesn't do any good. Pounce is 100% right that if they want it, they *will* get it.

There is a show called "It Takes a Thief". An ex-thief breaks into peoples homes to show them the inadequecy of their home security. He nearly has an orgasm every time he steals a gun and the time he broke into the police station and stole thiers, well that was priceless. Guns are and will be available until you have the manufacturers shut down and the military/law enforcement giving them up..well..they are a reality. We all know that isn't going to happen...ever.



I don't agree with everyone owning one, and franlkly, I despise autos and pistols, and in this situation it is not the fault of the gun or the gun laws but I truly feel, now that my outrage and shock has calmed, that this is 100% him and no one/nothing else.



Along these lines but a change of pace to the (somewhat)positive, sort of. A local, well known university Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) decided to use the VaT tragedy as prompting to re-evaluate their own student body and policies regarding not only privacies but how they have handled complaints in the past. So, right or wrong, they ventured on a dorm search, specifically towards those who have a more, ummm...colorful record against them. In the room of a young male student they found two automatic rifles (completely illegal here, btw) and a rather frighteningly large stockpile of ammo, along with more ammon in his car (which the police found after the boy was arrested for illegal firearms possession). Do we know what he was going to do with it? I, seriously, can only think it was something not nice as I see no other purpose for such weapons but in the end, we don't know. However, he was breaking the law, and because of VaT maybe another such incedent was avoided. Perhaps, perhaps not, but I like it better this way.

It's something small, but at least it is something positive from a negative.



*edit*

I thought I'd also add some of the rant from his manifesto...



"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."



It is a sad and frighteningly interesting perspective.

EDITED_BY: Pele (1176947348)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Icarus
member

Member Since: 30th Sep 2003
Total posts: 165
Posted:Pele, I wasn't saying that all guns would disapear. I also think that it is very unrealistic to think this will ever happen.
But the numbers would go down... it makes sense, doesn't it, that if there are less guns there will be less gun-related deaths?
I think, for those who are pro-gun laws (ie think it should be legal for civilians to own them), it is a very personal view "I will be safe" rather then "society will be safer" which is the view the anti-gun people are coming from. Personal safety is, of course, understandable.

I was driving between airly beach and townsville recently and there was a big rock with graffiti on it. It looks fairly old- i think it probably was done just after the gun laws were brought in, in australia. It said

" Howard, give us back our guns you idot. "

ubblol ubblol ubblol

priceless


xo


... simplify ...

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Thank you Pele. I always look forward to your perspective because it is always well thought out, well researched, and very thorough.

I don't have much to add except a few small things in response to other people.

I think it was FireTom who made the statement to me that I should consider getting a different career if I am choosing to interact with unsavory or violent people. I find that opinion not only appalling but ignorant. For the record, I'm a clinical psychologist. I work with sexual abuse survivors and do custody evaluations for Family Court. I work to help educate parents to be better parents to their children. And in doing so, I encounter plenty of parents who threaten me, who have violent records, people who would assault me if they had the chance. It's a hazard of what I do. But should I no longer choose to help people because of that fact? If that were the case, we would have a society who regularly turn their backs on people in need, and that's exactly what I'm trying to change.

Everyone keeps talking about banning guns as if that would solve the problem. That's ignorance! Pele said it best: "People always have snapped, some in small ways, some in large and you can't predict it or stop it but you can hold that person accountable for their actions (Charles Manson comes to mind here). Go ahead, strengthen the laws, change the economy, medicate and hospitalize the insane and this will *still* happen." I know the statement is cheesy but it's true...guns don't kill people, people kill people. If we didn't have guns, criminals would find another way. It's like trying to stop an avalanche just 100 feet from the bottom of the hill. It won't work. You have to start at the source, before the first pebble starts rolling at the top. It's about education, about teaching parents to be better parents, about teaching personal responsibility, about human kindness. As Lurch said, I would gladly give up my gun if you could guarantee there were no guns in the world. But there's no guarantee to that, and it still wouldn't stop the problem.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:tut tut pounce, I don't think that the viewpoint of banning guns is ignorance - it's a different opinion.



You can't complain about being ignored by people and then call other's opinions ignorant later.



That's just well, ignorance wink



No one likes to read about having their intelligence insulted.



And I am of the opinion that if banning guns will lessen the number of gun related deaths by even a few, it's completely worth it - at least worth trying.



*shrugs but I doubt we'll ever know.



And yes, Pele, I just saw the tape of that address. It's a little scary, to say the least. Perhaps Marx was right all along, and history is just that of class warfare. frown

EDITED_BY: KaelGotRice (1176953184)


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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Gnarly Cranium
Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco
Member Since: 16th Feb 2005
Total posts: 186
Posted: Written by: Pele


A local, well known university Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) decided to use the VaT tragedy as prompting to re-evaluate their own student body and policies regarding not only privacies but how they have handled complaints in the past. So, right or wrong, they ventured on a dorm search, specifically towards those who have a more, ummm...colorful record against them. In the room of a young male student they found two automatic rifles (completely illegal here, btw) and a rather frighteningly large stockpile of ammo, along with more ammon in his car (which the police found after the boy was arrested for illegal firearms possession). Do we know what he was going to do with it? I, seriously, can only think it was something not nice as I see no other purpose for such weapons but in the end, we don't know. However, he was breaking the law, and because of VaT maybe another such incedent was avoided. Perhaps, perhaps not, but I like it better this way.
It's something small, but at least it is something positive from a negative.



The thing that REALLY FRIGHTENS ME about all this is the knee-jerk fear and suspicion-- everybody is going to want to know why this kid wasn't stopped sooner. In our current political climate, this is going to get turned into paranoid hysteria.

How far is our Patriot-Act-happy populace willing to go? Random searches on people with 'colorful' pasts? Are they SERIOUS?? What the everliving rabid monkey qualifies as 'colorful', anyway? Is every kid who's a little different, depressed, creative, outspoken, or rude going to end up eyeballed as a potential psychokiller?? And since they found some guns, they're going to be calling it justified! How far will this crap go?? What else will they be searching for?

YES the mentally ill need help, YES the depressed should be noticed, YES we should be aware of what's going on around us and how people are doing-- but for the love of little cheese crackers, I hope this doesn't feed the witch hunt. Too much more of this and you'll get called a terrorist for sneezing wrong. Brrr!


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:no, reread my statement. banning guns isn't ignorance. i said that thinking that we can solve the entire problem of violence by banning guns is ignorance. tongue

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted: Written by: Gnarly Cranium


but for the love of little cheese crackers



ubblol ubblol LMAO!!!! ubblol ubblol ok i gotta start using that phrase!
/distracted comment


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay, thanks Kael, but I guess what pounce referred to in my post was that I advised him to look for a different job, if he's scared in his present one.

Another question: Pounce, is every of your colleagues - in your department and similar departments elsewhere - armed or carrying concealed?

Given that some ppl need to carry arms in cases as Lurch described (search and rescue in remote areas). But these are completely isolated incidents. Please understand that it is possible to carry a gun (in service) and have it locked away in the office thereafter.

I do not like the attitude: "This is never going to happen." (abolition of guns) Why? Because this is fatalism.

Guys, how old are you? Do you (now) start to repeat the attitude of your (grand)parents? Do you not remember the ideals you had as a teenager? I know much has to be surrendered in the process of growing up, but if you surrender your ideals - you're just growing old.

Some people only become criminals, by the time they go out there and use the guns they were able to obtain with a clean record.

This kid was living 15 years in the US, that is most of his entire life. He was clearly disgusted by his (social) environment and made a point. If YOU now don't get the point (and I guess that Pele is partially closest to what the point actually is), then the way is clear for the next incident.

As I said: After the dust settled, it's back to business as usual.

A gun is easier to handle as for say a sword, it's like a "remote control" and - guys - the trigger hippie attitude, the weird anti-social "gangsta" attitude is one of the global US AMERICAN exports to the world. Thanks.

You can repeat and quote those statistics over and over, Lurch - as for me: I have been traveling a fair bit of this planet (not remotely everywhere). I tell you where I felt the most uncomfortable: Sri Lanka and the US. Why? Because of the omnipresence of firearms. I even felt "safer" in the favelas of Rio, than I felt in the Bronx - even though I got mugged on the Copa. I can only refer to that.

Now I am 38 and (miraculously) I had ONE incident where I got mugged - and trust me, I have been in bad places. The events in which you would really need a gun to defend yourself are so scarce that they do not justify an entire society to be armed.

Someone approaches me with a gun and wants my car, wallet, etc. Let him have it. Someone breaks into my home? Let him take the stuff - best I will do is to get a proper insurance. I do not need to respond to that the same manner, because it clearly escalates a situation.

The smartest man is the one who runs the fastest from an open, violent conflict - IMHO - IF he was not smart enough to avoid it in the first place. And now you may quote the (even more unlikely) events in which one victim needs assistance... rolleyes HOW LIKELY IS THAT?

This is what I call paranoia: Someone who gets anxiety before entering a plane, someone who prepares for the most unlikely events in life and insures his home against meteorites falling from the sky.

My prerogative is to find trust in my life and what it holds for me: "If it's good, it's oh so good - if it's gone it's gone." (Ben Harper) Maybe my patchwork philosophy helps me.

As a kid I got pushed and kicked around on a daily basis. I carried arms (knives) as because I was terribly scared to receive another beating the next day. Thank god I "never had the chance" to use them. Violence in schools is a problem, but it's one that has to get tackled from a different angle, than to have the class representative carry a concealed weapon. We (as a society) need to make more effort in preventing this violence and enable the kids to vent their frustration and anger. Other than that we're just perpetuating a cave man scenario...

We'll never get rid of drugs either, hence the govt's are making an effort in doing so. shrug

Thanks for making the effort to read this lengthy post, in the meantime my emotions have settled to a great extent. Please excuse my previous rants. Someone put it and I side that: Please do not take it personal, Lurch - it's not meant to offend you. I just heavily disagree with you on this one. hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Why does everyone automatically assume I'm male? confused *sigh* Don't worry, I won't start on my feminist rants about guns and stereotypes. Or perhaps I should, perhaps it will make an even bigger point on the assumptions made on gun users tongue



No, not every one of my colleagues carry a weapon, but about 90% of those who do my specific type of work do own a gun and carry a concealed weapons permit. Especially the women, and not because women can't defend themselves otherwise but because people seem to think it's easier to threaten and intimidate women. And I don't carry a weapon because I'm scared, I carry it because I'm realistic and I have it for extra protection.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:redface guilty as charged hug Have you ever spoken to those who do NOT carry, about WHY they don't carry?

As I pointed out: I agree that there are situations and positions in which you would have the potential need for a gun. But the average Joe (working in a post office, sorting letters) IMHO does NOT (except if he's throwing away all the love letters, or opens and writes nasty comments on them)

"The exception to the rule" - ever heard of that? umm hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:i think this is another one of those issues where most people already have their mind up so are unlikely to shift.



i dont believe banning guns will solve the ENTIRE problem... i dont think anyones said that... the question is where it would help. Alas I don't have any unreliable internet statistics to throw around authoritatively



its seems to go something like - "i feel unsafe because because of all the criminal with guns out there... so what the solution? buy MORE guns!" well i dont really agree with that in principle (but do understand the need to protect oneself - if i lived in a different area i would probably have a different opinion, but i dont tongue )



the entire Gun Control debate is somewhat related to the 'Limits of Freedom' concept - how much must our freedom be structured and curtailed by laws to ensure that we continue to exist with what freedom we have.



i have the freedom to drive a car, must i need to get a license first, and obey the laws of the road to maintain that freedom/privelage. i cant simply drive anywhere and any speed i want to, without a seatbelt, with a 7 year old child in an oompa-loompa outfit tapdancing on the roof. Freedom in this case has been restricted to protect both myself and others from harm. Its not perfect - people still get killed. We could ban cars completely sure - but thats clearly not going to happen.

someone feels unsafe driving in a small car with kids in the back - so they buy a large 4wd tank with a bull bar to drop the kids off at school, which then increased risks to other pedestrians and small children - if only things could change so the 4wd didnt havent to be bought in the first place. alas - safety is still an issue so guns are bought for peace of mind.



the precise balance of laws, freedom, privileges, and perceived rights is quite the hotpot - just as it is for Gun Control.



I support the changes Australia made to gun laws after the Port Arthur Massacre - although i recognise we're not nearly as enthusiastic about firearms as the US - so thats an unlikely change that dramatic will ever happen in the US.

But what can/should change to try to prevent this happening again and again? if gun control is not the solution what is?



hugs to all hug

E ubbrollsmile

EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1176958819)


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:so in this case, are americans saying that their criminals are so much worse people (ie they are all killers) than other country's criminals?

Or are Americans just 'different' and so the very large multinational body of evidence that suggests that there would be a reduction in lethality and gun related crime by criminalising the posession of guns for the majority of 'normal' people simply not apply?

Because if you arent the same as the rest of the world where reductions in guns = reductions in gun deaths perhaps you wwant to look at the reasons (a point with a much wider scope than just the guns issue) if you are the same as us - then start looking at why you are resisting giving up your guns...

Pounce social work or criminal psychology do exist outside of the US - and people dont carry guns to work in those occupations anywhere else..Do you really think you do your job better because you are carrying a gun? seems to me that your employer isnt looking after your OHSW very well... So you shoot the crack head mother of the kid you were referred...I think that would probly screw most people up in the long term...certainly seems to screw up soldiers..

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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